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Old 06-14-2007, 01:17 PM   #201
Fordim Hedgethistle
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Old 06-14-2007, 01:17 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Raynor
I fail to see the grounds for your generalisation, and presenting opinion as fact is not helpful. In that section, Tolkien talks about the fact that the "personality [of mythological heroes] can only be derrived from a person", that all the aspects, even those of gods, are created by humans.
.
Of course. Just because a scientist shows how life originated on earth, it doesn't disprove your theory that it originated on the moon & was carried here by space monkeys - because while he spelled out how it originated on earth, he didn't actually write the words 'Life did not originate on the moon & there are no such things as space monkeys,'
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Old 06-14-2007, 01:30 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Jacques Derrida, on Why the Chicken Crossed The Road
Any number of contending discourses may be discovered within the act of the chicken crossing the road, and each interpretation is equally valid as the authorial intent can never be discerned, because structuralism is DEAD, $%^&, DEAD!
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Old 06-14-2007, 01:36 PM   #204
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Old 06-14-2007, 01:39 PM   #205
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The only restriction is on publishing such fiction for profit, & by extension on attempting to make a reputation as 'Tolkien's Literary Heir'.
Interesting that Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time volumes (for which, apparantly, he gets paid by the pound) are plastered with a quote from a New York Times reviewer, "Robert Jordan has come to dominate the world Tolkien began to reveal." One can scarcely imagine the disgust such a quote engenders on this site.
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Old 06-14-2007, 01:43 PM   #206
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SpM, I appreciate your loyerly attempt to impose some sort of clerical order on the discussion here. However, the fact that a topic might never have a definitive conclusion, as you put it, has never stopped any Downs discussion in the past and there is little reason to believe it shall in the future; nor does it provide any kind of evidence as to the value or pleasure of said discussion.
Far be it from me to attempt to bring this debate to any conclusion. There is, however, perhaps some merit in pointing out that some issues are incapable of any definitive conclusion, given the tendency of some to characterise their opinions as such, without necessarily imposing any finality on the debate.
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:23 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenamir
Interesting that Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time volumes (for which, apparantly, he gets paid by the pound) are plastered with a quote from a New York Times reviewer, "Robert Jordan has come to dominate the world Tolkien began to reveal." One can scarcely imagine the disgust such a quote engenders on this site.
'Comparable to Tolkien at his best'. I remember reading that on a novel by one Fred Saberhagen, though I'm sure it would be very difficult to count the number of Fantasy writers who have been compared to Tolkien, promoted as the 'next' Tolkien, or, as with Jordan here, stated to be 'superior' to him.

What's interesting is that whether they are being promoted as his replacement, his equal or his superior, they are all compared to Tolkien. Tolkien is the standard by which they are all measured.

And those few who aren't compared to him seem to have an animus regarding him - one thinks of Moorcock & Pullman. It all seems to be about Tolkien in one way or another.
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:41 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
Far be it from me to attempt to bring this debate to any conclusion. There is, however, perhaps some merit in pointing out that some issues are incapable of any definitive conclusion, given the tendency of some to characterise their opinions as such, without necessarily imposing any finality on the debate.
Your clarification makes an eminently worthy case and cause. I must say that in this instance I applaud the author's intention.

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Originally Posted by Thenamir
Interesting that Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time volumes (for which, apparantly, he gets paid by the pound) are plastered with a quote from a New York Times reviewer, "Robert Jordan has come to dominate the world Tolkien began to reveal." One can scarcely imagine the disgust such a quote engenders on this site.
With such talk of domination, some readers might be forgiven for thinking that Jordan is Sauron returned.
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:48 PM   #209
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At its heart here it look like there is a contradiction which is sending two very different messages. One the one hand we have the oft-quoted statement from Tolkien

Quote:
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The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.
Which seems to indicate - at least in 1951 - that JRRT wanted others to contribute to his ME mythology at the least through other artistic expressions such as paint, music and drama.

But then we have his will over 20 years later - years of success and royalty checks and giving him something substantial to protect and give to others - where he now says its all up the legalisms of Estates and lawyers and rights and permissions.

Obviously the will takes legal precedent over the 1951 statement in a letter.

But I wonder what would be said in court if one wrote a dramatic play based on events only "sketched" from the First or Second Age, put music to it, employed artists to illustrate it and then offered it to the public. Even JRRT said that "a solitary art is not art". I agree that the legal force of the law would be employed to show the individual putting on this drama had no permission. They would most likely, most probably, lose in court.

But I would love to hear the explaination of an Estate spokesperson on the witness stand who would have to publicly resolve the obvious contradiction.

We also have the entire idea of what is DRAMA? Is it the strictly limited theater production associated with the stage? Or is it a broader definition that could be used to describe TV, films or other such things?

It really seems to me that you can couch all this in very well meaning and high sounding terms and debate all about the nuances of the various issues but , in the end, this all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. On all sides.
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:31 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Sauron the White
But I would love to hear the explaination of an Estate spokesperson on the witness stand who would have to publicly resolve the obvious contradiction.
Why? The Letter was private correspondence, not intended for publication, so cannot be taken to have any weight legally. Also, Tolkien clearly states in the letter that, while that had been his intention at some point in the past, it no longer is ('my crest has long since fallen').

I am now assuming that the proposed new work(s) will be written by this unnamed 'genius'.

Could you please tell me who you think is going to write this 'play'? Please, ONE name, one author who you think will do a decent job.

Of course, I don't expect to get one - because whoever you name someone is going to object, & say they aren't the right person for the job. You see, the problem you have is that while in a fantasy world you can simply invent a writer of genius, in the real world you can't. Suitable writers don't just appear when you snap your fingers, or because you fancy reading a new M-e novel. Asking 'what would happen if someone wrote a 'dramatic play' (sic) based on First/Second Age events?' is a bit like asking 'What would happen if aliens landed in front of the White House & turned George Bush into a three headed chicken?' I can't prove that such an event is impossible, but before I spend time & energy speculating on how the free world would cope with a three headed chicken with its claw on The Button, I'd want some evidence its anything like a real possibility.....
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:59 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Sauron the White

It really seems to me that you can couch all this in very well meaning and high sounding terms and debate all about the nuances of the various issues but , in the end, this all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. On all sides.
Indeed. Which is why I feel strongly. For all that people chunner about mythologies, being an intellectual hippy, Barthes, whatever, it does come down to wanting to earn some cash. And if anyone has a moral right to cash made from Tolkien's work it is the family alone - he struggled to bring them up and they deserve some financial legacy, and it's not as if they are living the life of riley like Paris Hilton, they give the bulk of it to charity.

As for dramatisations - there have been many, many more than you would think. For example, I know of one of The Hobbit by Rony Robinson - no Tolkien expert, just a BBC Radio Sheffield DJ.
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:02 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron the White
It really seems to me that you can couch all this in very well meaning and high sounding terms and debate all about the nuances of the various issues but , in the end, this all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. On all sides.
Wouldn't that more precisely be ₤?

But seriously (I always give reverence to Serious Cat), was Milton in it for the money? I seem to recall something about justifying the ways of God to man. Or the visionary Blake? Why must you assume the money would be the only motivator? It certainly wasn't uppermost in Tolkien's mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Could you please tell me who you think is going to write this 'play'? Please, ONE name, one author who you think will do a decent job.
Perhaps we could ask Fordim to set up a poll. I nominate Mithadan for one of the names. And then maybe our Silm project collective.
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:15 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Lalwendë
Indeed. Which is why I feel strongly. For all that people chunner about mythologies, being an intellectual hippy, Barthes, whatever, it does come down to wanting to earn some cash. And if anyone has a moral right to cash made from Tolkien's work it is the family alone - he struggled to bring them up and they deserve some financial legacy, and it's not as if they are living the life of riley like Paris Hilton, they give the bulk of it to charity.

As for dramatisations - there have been many, many more than you would think. For example, I know of one of The Hobbit by Rony Robinson - no Tolkien expert, just a BBC Radio Sheffield DJ.
I agree. The idea of others making profit off of the Tolkien works and his idea is rather sickening. The whole NL/PJ fiasco is a prime example of two different people/institutions that have made billions off of Tolkien's ideas. I know the estate made money off of the movies, but not nearly as much as NL or PJ and co. But the bottom line is if JRR Tolkien was not the master writer and genius he was, both NL and Peter Jackson would be turning out nothing so grand and profitable as the movies were. Neither NL or PJ has the ability or billiance to actually write a something as magnificent as the ME stories. That alone belongs to JRR Tolkien. Does it mean someone else can not write a brilliant story about ME, no it does not, but the chances are highly unlikely. Neither Shay nor Jackson put together has that much brain power.

Of course I am probably only one of a few that hate to see the Tolkien ideas get raped by mass media and hack writers in an attempt to make money. If someone wants to write a play about elfs and shiny jewels then they can write the book first. Maybe they can even stretch their brains enough to actually produce a new story, not a rip-off of Tolkien. But then again most don't care they just want more ME stories, take take take until its all gone. Disregard Tolkien so long as we get more ME stories. We don't care about Tolkien nor his children or grandchildren, we wants it all precious, its ours. Sorry I not Gollum or Melkor or Sauron. I don't need to cut down Tolkien to make pretty jewels so I can think for one minute that I am as great of a writer as Tolkien, or that I deserve his light.
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:29 PM   #214
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Well, while we are at it, I nominate Valandil, moderator at www.entmoot.com . You can check some of his writtings:
Letters of Firiel
Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:45 PM   #215
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davem ... I have deep respect for your knowledge of Tolkien and his writings. I find your posts well written and well thought out.

However, comparing the writing of a drama about the First Age with the ridiculous possibility of aliens and Bush transforming into a chicken is simply absurd and demeans your own intelligence. One is a very real possibility given the realities of the world we live in. The other is just you being silly.

What good does a comparison like this do?

And I agree that Tolkien changed his mind from his earlier position. I agree that JRRT had that right and there is nothing wrong with his decision. I agree that he had a right to dispose of his property, real or intellectual or otherwise, anyway he deemed fit. Regardless, it is interesting that, at one time at least, his mind was of a different orientation regarding such contributions to his mythology.
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Old 06-14-2007, 08:04 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Bęthberry
Wouldn't that more precisely be ₤?

But seriously (I always give reverence to Serious Cat), was Milton in it for the money? I seem to recall something about justifying the ways of God to man. Or the visionary Blake? Why must you assume the money would be the only motivator? It certainly wasn't uppermost in Tolkien's mind.
"No one but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money."
-- Dr. Samuel Johnson (1704-1789)

Not saying this was necessarily Tolkien's case, as writing was his hobby for most of his life, not his vocation; however, based on his letters, he was certainly happy when those royalty checks began to come in regularly from Rayner & Unwin.

"If a writer has to rob his mother, he will not hesitate; the 'Ode on a Grecian Urn' is worth any number of old ladies." -- William Faulkner (1897-1962)

The above quote has nothing whatsoever to do with Tolkien; I just found it amusing.

As far as the original premise of this thread, I believe Tolkien inferred that he would like others to add to his comsology, but as in many of his quotes he has proven to be elusively vague and infuriatingly contradictory. If you look at his early career, he was certainly interested in joint projects (with Lewis and the Inklings, for instance, and earlier with his schoolmates), but as he grew older he became more conservative and protective of his works, until at the end he only trusted his son, Christopher, with his corpus. I believe the entire idea of others working in tandem on his creation atrophied as he did.

Now it is merely conjecture. One might as well ask whether balrogs have wings. *winks*
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:00 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Raynor
Well, while we are at it, I nominate Valandil, moderator at www.entmoot.com . ]
Well, the links are incredibly slow, but I'll keep trying.

For now I'll just ask, is it worth it? Once the Estate authorises a new M-e novel the floodgates will be open. M-e will no-longer be Tolkien's creation, but a franchise. There will be a stream of novels, as with the Star Wars/Star Trek franchises, some good, some bad, accepted by some, rejected by others - & all of them, ultimately, unnecessary.


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Originally Posted by STW
However, comparing the writing of a drama about the First Age with the ridiculous possibility of aliens and Bush transforming into a chicken is simply absurd and demeans your own intelligence. One is a very real possibility given the realities of the world we live in. The other is just you being silly.
Reductio ad Absurdam & all that......

What you're suggesting (a 'genius' appearing to continue Tolkien's work, & enhance & deepen his creation) is just as 'absurd'. You only think its a real possibility because you've convinced yourself this 'genius' is out there, just waiting to start writing.
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:55 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by davem
Well, the links are incredibly slow, but I'll keep trying.
Sorry to hear that; the links still work for me.
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Reductio ad Absurdam & all that
Reductio ad absurdam means that you derrive an absurd outcome from the premise, which indicates that the initial premise was wrong. I don't see any absurd conclusion in this case.
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Old 06-15-2007, 05:06 AM   #219
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Interesting in this context:

http://www.epinions.com/content_374810250884

Quote:
The Fantasy Disconnect

Tolkien is often credited for inspiring the modern genre of fantasy literature, and in many ways his influence is inarguable. But The Children of Hurin reemphasizes the fact that what Tolkien was about was something very different from what fantasy has become.

While the express purpose behind publishing this book was to give the story an opportunity to stand alone, something it accomplishes only with a significant introductory note, it is always clear that the mode has more in common with history or legend than it does with the adventures found in today's bookstore aisles. This can be felt in the amount of context and trivia surrounding the story, the use of elevated language, and the narrative tone, which insists the book be read as the summary of events ancient and wonderful, as opposed to a full and neat telling of a story with the immediacy and involvement we've come to expect from fantasy.

Do not come looking for a child of prophecy, called to free his people, slay the dragon, save the princess, and defeat the dark lord. In The Children of Hurin those tropes are all twisted to evil parodies, and the hero's theme is failure and defeat. It is a far cry from the eucatastrophies of popular fantasy, or even of The Lord of the Rings.



Provident Evil

The victory of evil over the fading flower of a more glorious age is central to Tolkien's elegiac ethos, his inheritance from the Northern literature he studied as a preeminent philologist. A central mystery in The Children of Hurin is whether Morgoth truly has the power he claims: "The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will."
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Old 06-15-2007, 06:25 AM   #220
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You have to question just how any writer would cope with the enigma that is Tolkien and his style. He continues to confound us from beyond the grave. Children of Hurin is a whole new thing as far as he's concerned. In stark contrast even to some of the darkest points of Rings, in that work we see a wholly different Tolkien - one who does not think of Light, of Hope or of Joy. Then you read some of the more esoteric writings such as Osanwe Kenta and you realise he had some incredibly peculiar ideas hidden away. What else is there?

Then you also have his incredibly mercurial character - for every bold statement in a letter there is another which refutes it. He was at once a serious academic in a closed world and at the same time, a wicked joker given to ASBO-inducing pranks. He loved ancient literature and at the same time gorged on contemporary fiction. He read both The Times and The Observer.

How would another writer cope with this unique author's wildly varying tone, vision and style? Could a non-British writer cope, given the subtle native nuances which his work is infused with? Would the new writer's personal vision deeply affect any new stories?

And finally, are we being just like Tolkien's stagnant, decaying Elves, wanting to constantly go back to the past and read more stuff about Middle-earth, when if we have learned anything from reading his work, surely we should all be forging ahead and founding new worlds?
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Old 06-15-2007, 07:38 AM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
Then you also have his incredibly mercurial character - for every bold statement in a letter there is another which refutes it.
How many examples of letters contradicting each other can you provide? Or would you like me to challenge you with 10, 20 such statements, and you find where they are contradicted? The letters only reflect the stage of the work in progress, and ocasionally we may find some pen slip -but that happens even with the final work.
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Old 06-15-2007, 09:01 AM   #222
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I don't see any absurd conclusion in this case.
I think it was Frank Herbert (author of the Dune Books) who said "The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand."
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:25 AM   #223
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Perhaps Tolkien's creation was really the last of the Saga genre, rather than the first of the modern fantasy genre. And I think that's the problem with most fanfic - its written by people who read Tolkien in the wrong way. What I mean is that too many of them read Tolkien's stories as 'fantasy' novels, when in reality they belong with works like the Kalevala, the Eddas & the Icelandic Sagas. Anyone who is familiar with Saga literature would recognise CoH as pretty typical of that genre -in both substance & style. Most fanfic feels wrong because it is written in the wrong 'style' & forced to conform to the standards of modern fantasy. Anyone attempting to write a convincing M-e story would have to be steeped in the Sagas, & forget completely any fantasy (in fact any 'novels') they had read. Actually the closest thing I've read to CoH is Poul Anderson's 'The Broken Sword'. Maybe, just maybe, Anderson could have done it, but Anderson's dead.
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Old 06-15-2007, 11:54 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Lalwendë
None of 'em.

Especially the Book of Mormon which was nicked from other texts - as for the Koran/Quran (however we're spelling it), like the Bible it had multiple hands involved in writing it. I don't know of any Scientology texts as I'm not a billionaire. But whatever Tom Cruise and co read at bedtime, like the Book of Mormon, it all stems from other stuff and it's not mythology anyway, just textbooks.
I think you're missing my point, Lal. No matter what sources Joseph Smith may have borrowed from, there's no question but that he wrote The Book of Mormon just as much as Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings (which of course borrowed from a lot of sources.) Similarly the Quran was written by Mohammed, no matter what Hebrew and Christian influences show through. Scientology isn't contained in a single book, but who said a mythology has to be? And it certainly is or contains a mythology: the whole business with Galctic Overlord Xenu and his interplanetary DC-8's (I am not making this up!)

The important point is that millions of people believe that these accounts of gods and other supernatural beings are literally, historically true--and also that they were written (or "revealed") by one man.

I hope you're not suddenly suggesting that the Author doesn't matter!

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Old 06-15-2007, 12:26 PM   #225
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Apparently one of the main things about the Book of Mormon is the extent to which it was plagiarised - this is something I've been told by Mormons themselves, note, and read elsewhere. Joseph Smith didn't write that much of it.

Hmm, now with texts like the Bible and Koran, these were written by many scribes over time, not by one writer. They may be the 'revelation' of one man but that simply doesn't count - it's who writes it that counts. If you took that line then Coronation Street or Eastenders could be counted as mythologies - they certainly have a following in the UK that's several hundred percent higher than either religious text

*shudders at the thought of people worshipping at a graven image of Pat Butcher*

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Originally Posted by Raynor
How many examples of letters contradicting each other can you provide? Or would you like me to challenge you with 10, 20 such statements, and you find where they are contradicted? The letters only reflect the stage of the work in progress, and ocasionally we may find some pen slip -but that happens even with the final work.
All you need to do is look through some random threads and you'll find oodles of contradictory quotes folk have flung at each other so save yer brains

However, how do we know what was a 'pen slip' and what was correct? Would that not be down to personal opinion? We agree with what supports our argument, no?
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:36 PM   #226
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Hmm, now with texts like the Bible and Koran, these were written by many scribes over time, not by one writer. They may be the 'revelation' of one man but that simply doesn't count - it's who writes it that counts.
I think you misunderstand the essential difference between the Bible and the Quran. While even the most hardcore snake-handling Bible-thumping KJV-only Baptist fundie will acknowledge that the Bible was written by many hands over many centuries (even if he does believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch), it is a fundamental article of Islamic belief that Muhammed personally wote down every jot and tittle of the Quran as dictated to him by the archangel Gabriel, Allah's personal messenger. Very much like Joseph Smith and his angel, come to think of it.

Again, you're not going Bartheist on us, are you?

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Old 06-15-2007, 12:39 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli
I think you misunderstand the essential difference between the Bible and the Quran. While even the most hardcore snake-handling Bible-thumping KJV-only Baptist fundie will acknowledge that the Bible was written by many hands over many centuries (even if he does believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch), it is a fundamental article of Islamic belief that Muhammed personally wote down every jot and tittle of the Quran as dictated to him by the archangel Gabriel, Allah's personal messenger.

Again, you're not going Bartheist on us, are you?
I'd bet a hundred shiny pounds that he didn't though.

And I've committed two 'sins' at once there...
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:46 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Lalwendë
All you need to do is look through some random threads and you'll find oodles of contradictory quotes folk have flung at each other so save yer brains
I would be in debt if you could mention one such thread where letters contradict each other
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However, how do we know what was a 'pen slip' and what was correct?
IIRC, Tolkien mentioned in a letter that it was the valar who destroyed Numenor; that appears only in one of the initial versios of the story; the rest of them have Eru do it. I would call that a pen slip - mixing versions, timelines, etc. As I mentioned, this happens even with the final version, where we know Tolkien pondered each and every word.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:58 PM   #229
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1420!

What exceptional synchronicity! Just as I hit the quote button to reply to drigel's post about this thread jumping the shark, his post disappears! I was going to tell him that this thread just gets funnier and funnier.


Morthoron, thank you for those illuminating quotations from Dr. Johnson and that Southern Yankee who wrote about fetishes with dead bodies. We can probably find any number of authors who hold any number of positions regarding reimbursements and motivations, none which in any way discounts how other writers feel. However, I do think it is well to remember that in days long past when the darkness had not crept widely over the earth, giants reigned. They were giants because their vision and strength and honour outstripped those of other men. And as they walked the earth, other men trembled at their approach, so stern was their bearing and so noble their deportment and so pure their vision. These giants, if they were warriors, fled no battle, avoided no enemy, and feared no foe. They desired but to die nobly and with honour. A paltry remant of their code of honour survives to this day in the pitiable expression, "It is a good day to die." Yet not all these giants were warriors; some were of the noble calling yclept scop and bard and to them fell the honour and the duty to record the valorious actions of the noble warriors. In the mead hall and at the parting of the waves it was their words, pure and clean of the dross, which gave voice and vision to the warriors' laments and sacrifices. For this, the cup was raised in their honour, and many were the nights that the bards led the warriors in their cups. It was their just reward, before the evil days of publishers and agents darkened noble writ.



But on to the response of my response to davem's plea for a name, a one name like a One Ring to rule them all. We seem to have such short memories here that I will remind anyone still reading this of his plea:

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Could you please tell me who you think is going to write this 'play'? Please, ONE name, one author who you think will do a decent job.

Of course, I don't expect to get one - because whoever you name someone is going to object, & say they aren't the right person for the job. You see, the problem you have is that while in a fantasy world you can simply invent a writer of genius, in the real world you can't. Suitable writers don't just appear when you snap your fingers, or because you fancy reading a new M-e novel. Asking 'what would happen if someone wrote a 'dramatic play' (sic) based on First/Second Age events?' is a bit like asking 'What would happen if aliens landed in front of the White House & turned George Bush into a three headed chicken?' I can't prove that such an event is impossible, but before I spend time & energy speculating on how the free world would cope with a three headed chicken with its claw on The Button, I'd want some evidence its anything like a real possibility.....
Now, the criterion here is to Name That Writer Who No One Will Object To, otherwise known as Name That Writer to Whom No One Will Object. This is important, because in this pleas from davem there is no mention of The Estate. The sole criterion is to name a writer who is without stain.

So, I named a person from this forum who has garnered accolade after accolade for the quality of his fanfiction, the mighty Mithadan, whose Tol Eressëa
stories were held to be the highest and finest attempt to capture the elusive elements of Tolkien's writing. (I won't say anything about his REB fanfic, because he was positively scandalous there.)

And was this writer's work considered at all? Nay, suddenly cold feet seemed to sweep through the dusty, dark Barrows and in reply to my nomination, suddenly the criteria shifted, like tectonic plates grinding up against each other, but without the earth really moving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
For now I'll just ask, is it worth it? Once the Estate authorises a new M-e novel the floodgates will be open. M-e will no-longer be Tolkien's creation, but a franchise. There will be a stream of novels, as with the Star Wars/Star Trek franchises, some good, some bad, accepted by some, rejected by others - & all of them, ultimately, unnecessary.
Now it's The Estate who will authorise Mithadan. (Like Fordim, I don't give a hoot for a legal and formal imprimatur, for stories don't survive by critics and reviewers and publishers alone. The mark of The Estate is irrelevant here.) Yet where were the naysayers who repudiated Mithadan's writing? Left speechless to deflect the topic yet again back to the enigma of Tolkien's style. Now if that isn't funny, what is?

Raynor, I had time to skim only one of your links. You aren't by any chance a fan of Georgette Heyer, are you?

The bogey of style and the bully of Estate authorisation are irrelevant. There's a clue, though, in the reception of Tolkien's work. Where once he was pooh-poohed and then cultishly embraced and then fan-adulated, he now is coming into greater and greater repute. Time does that, if you're good. Let the base imitators mimic and the imaginative writers take inspiration and somewhere down the line, as Child has suggested, the stories that matter will take hold on the consciousness of the reading and story-telling public. After all, Milton does not sound like the Bible, and Blake does not sound like Milton. But the cauldron bubbled.

There, like the proverbial cat, I think I've caught my tale again.
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:29 PM   #230
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I'm not quite sure in which direction you're tacking now.

After an extensive defense of the Author against PoMo drivel, I don't think that you're now taking the position that an Author who plagiarises doesn't count- even the act of choosing what to steal is still an independent creative act.

On the other hand, I'm not sure you're asserting that the Quaran has been 'garbled in transmission'- in fact its text from the oldest extant manuscripts down to the present are at least as consistent as the Vulgate and Septuagint.

There's no doubt in my mind that Muhammed, like Smith and Hubbard after him, set out consciously to create (or forge) a new "Mythology" as the fundamental step in that ancient scam, "Profiting Through Propheting."
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:41 PM   #231
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Raynor, I had time to skim only one of your links. You aren't by any chance a fan of Georgette Heyer, are you?
I haven't heard of her .
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:45 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Bęthberry
So, I named a person from this forum who has garnered accolade after accolade for the quality of his fanfiction, the mighty Mithadan, whose Tol Eressëa
stories were held to be the highest and finest attempt to capture the elusive elements of Tolkien's writing. (I won't say anything about his REB fanfic, because he was positively scandalous there.)
And its very good....yet, a line of Aneurin's came to mind as I read, an elegy for one of the men of Gododdin who fell at Catraeth:

'He glutted black ravens on the walls, but he was no Arthur.' I don't want to sound too negative - I was impressed, yet some things jarred ("Pengolodh snorted" )
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:55 PM   #233
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Just as I hit the quote button to reply to drigel's post about this thread jumping the shark, his post disappears!
The reason I put in the space that asks for a reason for deletion: manners

I have never wanted to offend anyone here. My hackles have been raised enough to warrant my self imposed exile. I havent lightened up yet. Im a purist, I suppose.

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So, I named a person from this forum who has garnered accolade after accolade for the quality of his fanfiction, the mighty Mithadan, whose Tol Eressëa
So says the BDner's. Good enough quality, I suppose. And then the 20-40 other ME fanfic sites will support their hero. We can all have them fight Sparticus style at MSG. The winner will recieve a chat squirrel with oak cluster flourish. Then the ME mythology will take it's rightfull place somewhere, but well underneath, The Matrix, D&D, Star Trek\Wars and L Ron Hubbards alien invaders who like to get it on with with Australopithecus africanus women like the freaks they are. Then the pantheon of knock-off mythologies will be complete, amen. We are all free to do what we want, or not.

You see, I believe Davem's point is just that: if there was something that good out there, we would all have already heard about it, read it, and petitioned the Estate for endorsement. Thing is (for folks like me), unless you follow, contribute or participate in fanfics, it's really not that interesting or compelling. And if we read the whole thing, it's because we want to be polite. Because in reality, after about the 2nd or 3rd paragraph, we have completely checked out. Why? The author isnt Tolkien. As is the nature of these things, the product is never as good as it was fun to write.

go figure

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Old 06-15-2007, 05:17 PM   #234
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Drigel,

Why do we have to be in this much of a hurry? People are too impatient. We’re not talking about something that starts and finishes in our lifetime. It’s a process that will sort itself out over hundreds, possibly thousands of years. Most of these retellings will be garbage, sinking to the bottom unread and unlamented. Maybe three percent will be worth a read. No one can be sure if any of those will be worth remembering. But, over 500 years, my bet is that someone will come up with something that actually touches some hearts and minds.

“Successor?” Ugh! Tolkien has no “successor” because he is unique. If crowning a “successor” is our only choice, I defer to Davem and throw the whole thing in the trash.. Again, I don’t think it’s that simple. Sagas and myths are normally told and retold from different perspectives over a very long time. Thomas Mallory, Alfred Lord Tennyson, T.H. White, Charles Williams, Vera Chapman, Kevin Crossley-Holland, Marian Zimmer Bradley and a host of others drew on the same body of Arthurian stories, each expressing them in a different way. I believe the same will eventually happen with the Legendarium.

Davem is wise in saying that the Legendarium is closer to saga than fantasy. I also agree with Bethberry on Mithadan. His writing at least points in the right direction. Mithadan’s stories feel like history written at some point in the past.

Since Tolkien stands at the end of the tradition of Saga, Davem suggests it would be impossible for latecomers to latch onto the tradition, and continue it on. I’m not so sure. Many readers fell in love with the ancient sources after reading LotR and ended up going back and devoting their lives to studying medieval languages or history or literature. I would guess about a third of medievalists teaching in colleges and unis today in this country owe some debt to Tolkien. As readers of LotR, these individuals were able to see beyond the veneer of "fantasy" and reconnect with that older heritage. If that recognition exists,it may be possible to continue with the tradition in written form. Not an exact replica, which would be impossible, but something that captures the spirit of the thing. I have never read any of Verlyn Flieger’s imaginative fiction. Just curious what tone is used in those.

All this assumes that people still care about Middle-earth 500 years from today. If they still care, they will retell and expand. The alternative is to think of the Legendarium as a series of very specific novels and poems, with no possibility of expansion.

Ironically, the one person who has done more than anyone to ensure that people think of the Legendarium as an expanding world rather than a series of discrete works with strict borders is Christopher Tolkien. Without Silm, without HoMe, without UT and Children of Hurin, Tolkien would look much more like a "conventional" author, and people would respond accordingly. There would be far fewer people who get the bug to retell the tale and to explore the hidden recesses of Middle-earth. By showing us more of what was in his father's mind, Christopher has actually helped writers break through to a wider Middle-earth. He has given us a tiny glimpse of the hidden vistas and distant mountains that Tolkien loved to put in his stories. If there are retellers of the future, it will because of Christopher’s very hard work, and I am extremely grateful for that.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:12 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
“Successor?” Ugh! Tolkien has no “successor” because he is unique. If crowning a “successor” is our only choice, I defer to Davem and throw the whole thing in the trash.. Again, I don’t think it’s that simple. Sagas and myths are normally told and retold from different perspectives over a very long time. Thomas Mallory, Alfred Lord Tennyson, T.H. White, Charles Williams, Vera Chapman, Kevin Crossley-Holland, Marian Zimmer Bradley and a host of others drew on the same body of Arthurian stories, each expressing them in a different way. I believe the same will eventually happen with the Legendarium.
And I would suggest that the aformentioned authors' points of view regarding the Arthurian Cycle are as disparate as any in literature. Compare T.H. White's 'The Once and Future King' to Zimmer-Bradley's 'Mists of Avalon': save for the same general characters and fundamental plot, they might as well be talking about two separate epochs, so dissimilar are the treatments (personally, I've always favored White to any of those you mentioned, save perhaps for Malory).

So the point I am making is, when one is speaking of a successor to Tolkien, would the inference be that such a personage be chosen to ape Tolkien's style? I would suggest that such a treatment, even if it could be done plausibly and with much attention to detail, would render the work to be utter mimicry. Like the much repeated elements of the Arthurian Cycle, an author should be allowed the latitude to impress his/her own style on the tale rendered, lest it become a mere charade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
Since Tolkien stands at the end of the tradition of Saga, Davem suggests it would be impossible for latecomers to latch onto the tradition, and continue it on. I’m not so sure. Many readers fell in love with the ancient sources after reading LotR and ended up going back and devoting their lives to studying medieval languages or history or literature. I would guess about a third of medievalists teaching in colleges and unis today in this country owe some debt to Tolkien. As readers of LotR, these individuals were able to see beyond the veneer of "fantasy" and reconnect with that older heritage. If that recognition exists,it may be possible to continue with the tradition in written form. Not an exact replica, which would be impossible, but something that captures the spirit of the thing.
I am of the same mind as Child (or would you prefer 7th Age?). There is certainly an unlimited market for all-things-Middle-earth (why else would 'The Children of Hurin' -- a rather tedious rehashing of an excerpt from the Silmarillion -- manage to reach the top of the New York Times Bestseller List?). The Middle-earth chronicles are fast passing onward from a classic novelization of the fantasy genre into the rarified realm of such oft-retold tales as can be found in the Arthurian or Charlemagnic cycles. Face it, there are more Middle-earth roleplaying stories, novellas, games, fan-fics, etc. on more forum sites than all other such attempts combined, then trebled, then multiplied by a google complex.

It is not much different than the genesis of the Arthurian cycle, is it not? There is the initial germ of truth, and it passed through many hands in Anglo-Saxon England, made its way over the Channel to be enhanced among the troubadours, found its way to the trouvere Chretien de Troyes, then was diffused throughout Christendom (Germany, particularly), and finally passed back over the Channel to be reinvigorated by Malory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
All this assumes that people still care about Middle-earth 500 years from today. If they still care, they will retell and expand. The alternative is to think of the Legendarium as a series of very specific novels and poems, with no possibility of expansion.
Precisely. We are perhaps too close to the original author to conceive of an expanding Arda that will not smack of gimmickery or pulp-fiction rip-offs. But a century from now, or two? I would like to relate a story if I may...

Having finished reading E.B. White’s Charlotte’s Web with my six-year old daughter (complete with the accompanying tears when the loquacious grey spider sadly dies), we then decided to embark on a journey of a lighter vein by reading The Hobbit. I must say that a book I have long used just for reference material and for scholarly debate (whether or not you consider the book strictly canonical), has, through the eyes of a precocious and imaginative first grader, renewed my sense of wonder. It has brought back fond memories of the first time I sat enthralled in this sublimely simple tale, and likewise has so enchanted my daughter that she believes the events in the book actually happened once on a time. I asked her if Hobbits were real, and she merely looked at me in that Oh-dad-is-so-daft manner and replied, “Of course Hobbits are real, silly, because I can fly!”

Since the story had such an effect on her, it is likely she will continue to immerse herself in Middle-earth as she grows older, and might possibly read Tolkien's tales to her children and they to there's and so on. Eventually all original copyrights fail, and a story that spans generations, like The Hobbit or LOTR, will pass into the public domain. Who can say what will happen then?
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Old 06-16-2007, 12:27 AM   #236
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Just before I get off on me hols I just wanted to add something:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron
So the point I am making is, when one is speaking of a successor to Tolkien, would the inference be that such a personage be chosen to ape Tolkien's style? I would suggest that such a treatment, even if it could be done plausibly and with much attention to detail, would render the work to be utter mimicry. Like the much repeated elements of the Arthurian Cycle, an author should be allowed the latitude to impress his/her own style on the tale rendered, lest it become a mere charade.
The style/language associated with M-e is Tolkien's own, & in a strange way the tales, for me have to be told in that style, using that language. The style is an essential part of the tale being told. Hence my sudden feeling of 'NO!!!' when on reading Mith's tale of Eressea last night I came across 'Pengolodh snorted'. Elves do not 'snort'. Well, Tolkien's Elves don't. Come to that, I read one of the Downs RPG's long ago, in which a character had to run home for 'Lunch'. Now, lunch is wrong. 'Luncheon' is pushing it. 'Nuncheon' might work for a midday meal, but Hobbits would have Dinner at mid-day. Breakfast, dinner, tea, supper. That's what Tolkien's models in Warwickshire & Berkshire would call them. Hobbits, in short, never, ever have 'lunch'. Even something as trivial as that will jar some of us out of the story.

Anyway, I have to rush. Try & manage without me
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Old 06-16-2007, 02:59 AM   #237
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Hobbits, in short, never, ever have 'lunch'.
I am not sure I follow; the term lunch is used several times in LotR in regards to the hobbits.
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Old 06-16-2007, 08:14 AM   #238
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The style/language associated with M-e is Tolkien's own, & in a strange way the tales, for me have to be told in that style, using that language. The style is an essential part of the tale being told. Hence my sudden feeling of 'NO!!!'
Hmmmm...and which actual Tolkienic style would you deign to be acceptable? The archaic and solemn idiom of the Sil and CoH, or the more modern modes of speech presented in LotR? Would you even consider the lighter, fairytale quality of The Hobbit, or eschew it as non-canonical (even though without the success of the Hobbit, we should never have heard of the good Professor)? You are putting a succeeding author(s) in a position to fail by forcing them to mimic a famous and well-regarded author, rather than allow the new author the courtesy of offering their own style in describing whichever piece of Middle-earth lore they are endeavoring to expound. To me, it sounds like you would spend most of your time critiquing the author's mode of speech and literary style, rather than the actual story presented.

Certainly, there are morals and general cosmological and chronological principles that would be sacrosanct; Middle-earth is, after all, an ethical universe. But there are other voices in Middle-earth, not merely the Hobbits who compiled the Redbook of Westmarch. For instance, would the tone and manner of a Middle-earth piece be different if it were offered by, say, an Easterling bard who heard of the great defeat of his countrymen during the War of the Ring, but from second-hand accounts of returning warriors? Assuredly, the tone would be solemn, but would it necessarily mirror the cadences and dialects occuring in Tolkien's presentation of Western Middle-earth civilization?
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Old 06-16-2007, 08:21 AM   #239
Aiwendil
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Originally Posted by Davem
Hobbits, in short, never, ever have 'lunch'. Even something as trivial as that will jar some of us out of the story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Long Expected Party
There were three official meals: lunch, tea, and dinner (or supper). But lunch and tea were marked chiefly by the fact that at those times all the guests were sitting down and eating together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three's Company
Folco went home after lunch, but Pippin remained behind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three's Company
After lunch, the Sackville-Bagginses, Lobelia and her sandy-haired son, Lotho, turned up, much to Frodo’s annoyance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three's Company
‘The road goes on for ever,’ said Pippin; ‘but I can’t without a rest. It is high time for lunch.’
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three's Company
After a rest they had a good lunch, and then more rest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Shortcut to Mushrooms
It was now past mid-day, and they felt it was high time for lunch.
. . . all of which only goes to show that no one should be too hasty in declaring himself or herself an infallible judge of Tolkien's style. Though for what it's worth (which is probably not much), I do agree that 'Pengolodh snorted' is unsuitable.

Now you may go back to endlessly debating literary pseudo-questions.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 06-16-2007 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 06-16-2007, 10:39 AM   #240
Child of the 7th Age
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Drigel,

I've made just 5 posts here out of 240, and it seems I'm already in hot water! I am sorry if the wording of my posts upset you but we hold different opinions on the long term fate of the Legendarium. As I said before, absolutely no one knows what is going to happen 100 or 500 years from now. You may be the one who is closer to the mark than I am. My opinion (and it is only an opinion) is that there will be people trying to retell this story. Tolkien's Legendarium, his total body of writings, is so different from most contemporary novels (even the very best of the best) that I believe its future course will also be different.

"Software engineers" for Tolkien? Five hundred years ago, printed books were just getting their start. Another five hundred years in the future and there will likely be no software engineers. Very few people in the year 1500 could have predicted the computer and the internet, and I think we also can not predict the shape of things over such a long span of time.

I am not the only one who feels this way. I recently attended a session which involved grad and undergrad students and one scholar from a nearby univerisity who had publshed several books investigating the medieval sources and connections of the Legendarium. There was a great deal of discussion on the earlier tradition of Arthurian literature, and whether Middle-earth could eventually evolve down a similar path, given modern modes of dissemination of stories. Like the present forum, the participants couldn't totally agree but there was a serious and respectful hearing given to the views on both sides.

Regarding the nature of this site, there is no fanfiction here. There is a separate older BD site which was used for fanfiction. It lies virtually dormant. Less than five pieces have been added there in the past year. There are RPGs on the main site. The RPG sections used to be quite active but for a variety of reasons (Werewolf games, mods who've pulled back a bit, fewer new posters) it is quieter of late. A few stories plod quietly forward. If you count up recent posts, most of the activity lies in Books (and Mirth). This is a Books site in origin and at its heart. I do not see that changing, nor do I want it to change.

Quote:
I think that if there is a general "sagadarium", that JRRT created, it's the genre of modern fantasy. It's out there. You should try it. Writing it, I mean. It's tough, Ill warn you. You can spend years and years studying, perfecting, honing your mind to become an author of fiction or fantasy. Or, you can spend years and years on the internet being a JRRT monkey. woo hooo grab the twinkies....
There were authors writing fantasy like Morris and MacDonald long before Tolkien. However, he certainly sparked more creativity in the field. And most contemporary fantasy writers owe an enormous debt to Tolkien. Fantasy is not one thing -- there are so many types and forms that it is difficult to generalize, and this would take a very different thread. My only problem is your last sentence. You can't assume anyone who takes the opposite side in this argument is a "JRRT monkey". (Ouch, that hurts!) Just for the record, I have never written a fanfiction in my life, and I am no fantasy writer. I've spent plenty of time with RPGs but those are a different creature, and it is all for fun. However, I do have "serious stuff" in print in history and library science so I am hoping that disqualifies me from the heinous sin of being a "JRRT monkey".
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Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 06-16-2007 at 11:07 AM.
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