.... wait, what? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Beanamir of Gondor · 02-08-2009, 09:22 PM

Perhaps someone else here has read the Histories of Middle-earth more closely, but I'm not finding the answer anywhere.

In his eponymous council, Elrond, in the middle of describing the battle of Dagorlad, pauses and sighs. "I remember well the splendour of their banners," he said. "It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so."

Whoa, back up. Upon re-reading the section in the Silmarillion concerning the fall of Thangorodrim, we are told that among the host of the Valar "went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands," i.e. no Elf living in Beleriand at the time. So Maglor, who was pretty much raising Elrond and Elros at the time (if I'm not mistaken) wouldn't have gone to the battle, much less taken them with him.

Then even afterwards, when the Valar summoned them to depart Beleriand for the west, Maglor and Maedhros refused; we don't know anything about Elrond again until he chooses to be counted amongst the Eldar, a page later. But it seems doubtful that he would have seen the host of the Valar encamped, much less in battle, since his foster-father only snuck into their host once, and it was to steal a Silmaril. The indication is that some Moriquendi (Galadriel, Cirdan, and Elrond among them) never came to the summons, but just... stayed where they were.

Hmm. So is Elrond just speaking about the host of the Valar from stories he's heard, did he manage to see them encamped and just get the general idea... or is it conjecture? I'm irritated that he presents the information to Frodo and the Council as if he were there at the fall of Thangorodrim himself. (I'm also irritated with myself that until now I took it for granted that Elrond was at that battle.)

Silly Elves and their histories. Anyone?

narfforc · 02-09-2009, 12:38 AM

I think that Elrond would have learned of this Battle from other sources, the comings and goings of those from Aman and as we read of things other than our experience, we imagine how great events unfold. Elrond's memory of The Battle of the Last Alliance, would be tinged with this story he had read. Imagine an old relative or friend tells you of a past event, and then you experience something similar, you may think of the past event. The other explaination could be that the army's march through Beleriand was witnessed by many that never went to the battle, (and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms)

Findegil · 02-09-2009, 10:56 AM

I think that Elrond saw the gathering of the forces in western Beleriand. We do not have much information about the course of the war of wrath, but some sources name a camp on the former watched plain (between Narog and Taiglin), were Enowe summoned alle willing forces to his banner.
What is said about the Elves of Beleriand in the Silmarillion does in my view only count for the last battle in which the forces of Angband were destroied and Morgoth himself at last take captive again.

Respectfully
Findegil

Beanamir of Gondor · 02-09-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

I think that Elrond saw the gathering of the forces in western Beleriand. We do not have much information about the course of the war of wrath, but some sources name a camp on the former watched plain (between Narog and Taiglin), were Enowe summoned alle willing forces to his banner.
What is said about the Elves of Beleriand in the Silmarillion does in my view only count for the last battle in which the forces of Angband were destroied and Morgoth himself at last take captive again.

See, that's what I was thinking. But Maglor (Elrond's foster-father) did not come to Eonwe's summons. And beyond that, Elrond shouldn't have, either, since he chose to stay in Middle-earth rather than go to Tol Eressea. Maybe he just... popped by to let Eonwe know?

I might have to agree with narfforc on this one, that Elrond just heard of the host of the Valar from...
... well, wait. Who would he have heard it from? None of the Elves of Beleriand went to Angband, and all the Vanyar promptly packed up for Valinor!

I realize this is picking nits, but it bothers me.
Maybe it's just because this whole section of the Silmarillion was reconstructed by poor C.Tolkien.

narfforc · 02-09-2009, 05:30 PM

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Kands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kin in Aman.

We know that ships still sailed from the Undying Lands to Mithlond, the Istari came around TA1000. It is possible that the stories migrated back long before that, it is even possible that some of those Maiar were there at Thangorodrim, though we are not told this.

Beanamir of Gondor · 02-09-2009, 06:47 PM

Hmmph. That makes perfect, perfect sense.

It just feels like... well, example. Compare it to Frodo telling Sam about the beauty of Smaug's Treasures as if he'd seen it himself, though we know he never really saw the Lonely Mountain: he just learned it from Bilbo.

Okay. Thread closed. I'll stop complaining.

Kuruharan · 02-09-2009, 08:11 PM

Maybe Elrond snuck off to take a peek when the host landed?

William Cloud Hicklin · 02-10-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

I realize this is picking nits, but it bothers me.
Maybe it's just because this whole section of the Silmarillion was reconstructed by poor C.Tolkien.

Not really. This section as published is almost - aside from certain de-archaising - the text of the conclusion of the Qenta Noldorinwa (1930), which Tolkien copied verbatim into Quenta Silmarillion (1937), and then left largely untouched (he made a few additions in the Fifties, like Ancalagon destoying Thangorodrim in his fall).

The unfortunate brevity and (compressed) nature of this final chapter, and the Fall of Gondolin, aren't CT's fault- it's just that there was no later text available than, in essence, QN.

Vultur · 02-15-2009, 08:54 PM

I was under the impression that Elrond *saw* the forces, but did not take part in any actual fighting. ("Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms"; it was hardly a sneaky movement of troops!) But then, I was always of the impression (largely because of that quote) that this was an INCREDIBLY huge army (millions at the very least, probably many millions), whose marching toward Angband would have covered most of Beleriand.

02-08-2009, 09:22 PM	#1
Beanamir of Gondor Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: the Shadow Gallery Posts: 276	.... wait, what? Perhaps someone else here has read the Histories of Middle-earth more closely, but I'm not finding the answer anywhere. In his eponymous council, Elrond, in the middle of describing the battle of Dagorlad, pauses and sighs. "I remember well the splendour of their banners," he said. "It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so." Whoa, back up. Upon re-reading the section in the Silmarillion concerning the fall of Thangorodrim, we are told that among the host of the Valar "went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands," i.e. no Elf living in Beleriand at the time. So Maglor, who was pretty much raising Elrond and Elros at the time (if I'm not mistaken) wouldn't have gone to the battle, much less taken them with him. Then even afterwards, when the Valar summoned them to depart Beleriand for the west, Maglor and Maedhros refused; we don't know anything about Elrond again until he chooses to be counted amongst the Eldar, a page later. But it seems doubtful that he would have seen the host of the Valar encamped, much less in battle, since his foster-father only snuck into their host once, and it was to steal a Silmaril. The indication is that some Moriquendi (Galadriel, Cirdan, and Elrond among them) never came to the summons, but just... stayed where they were. Hmm. So is Elrond just speaking about the host of the Valar from stories he's heard, did he manage to see them encamped and just get the general idea... or is it conjecture? I'm irritated that he presents the information to Frodo and the Council as if he were there at the fall of Thangorodrim himself. (I'm also irritated with myself that until now I took it for granted that Elrond was at that battle.) Silly Elves and their histories. Anyone? __________________ The answer to life is no longer 42. It's 4 8 15 16 23... 42. "I only lent you my body; you lent me your dream."

02-09-2009, 12:38 AM	#2
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,307	I think that Elrond would have learned of this Battle from other sources, the comings and goings of those from Aman and as we read of things other than our experience, we imagine how great events unfold. Elrond's memory of The Battle of the Last Alliance, would be tinged with this story he had read. Imagine an old relative or friend tells you of a past event, and then you experience something similar, you may think of the past event. The other explaination could be that the army's march through Beleriand was witnessed by many that never went to the battle, (and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms) __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 02-09-2009 at 12:51 AM.

02-09-2009, 05:30 PM	#5
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,307	Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Kands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kin in Aman. We know that ships still sailed from the Undying Lands to Mithlond, the Istari came around TA1000. It is possible that the stories migrated back long before that, it is even possible that some of those Maiar were there at Thangorodrim, though we are not told this. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

02-09-2009, 06:47 PM	#6
Beanamir of Gondor Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: the Shadow Gallery Posts: 276	Hmmph. That makes perfect, perfect sense. It just feels like... well, example. Compare it to Frodo telling Sam about the beauty of Smaug's Treasures as if he'd seen it himself, though we know he never really saw the Lonely Mountain: he just learned it from Bilbo. Okay. Thread closed. I'll stop complaining. __________________ The answer to life is no longer 42. It's 4 8 15 16 23... 42. "I only lent you my body; you lent me your dream."

02-09-2009, 08:11 PM	#7
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,685	Maybe Elrond snuck off to take a peek when the host landed? __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-09-2009, 10:56 AM	#3
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	I think that Elrond saw the gathering of the forces in western Beleriand. We do not have much information about the course of the war of wrath, but some sources name a camp on the former watched plain (between Narog and Taiglin), were Enowe summoned alle willing forces to his banner. What is said about the Elves of Beleriand in the Silmarillion does in my view only count for the last battle in which the forces of Angband were destroied and Morgoth himself at last take captive again. Respectfully Findegil

02-15-2009, 08:54 PM	#9
Vultur Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 14	I was under the impression that Elrond saw the forces, but did not take part in any actual fighting. ("Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms"; it was hardly a sneaky movement of troops!) But then, I was always of the impression (largely because of that quote) that this was an INCREDIBLY huge army (millions at the very least, probably many millions), whose marching toward Angband would have covered most of Beleriand.