Coincidence?

[The Might]

Not a very complex topic this time really, I had a random thought 5 minutes ago and realised that there is an interesting coincidence concerning meteors in Tolkien's Silmarillion.

We know that the blades for Anglachel and Anguirel, the swords forged by Eol, came from a meteor. And we know that they were black.

Does this ring a bell?

Well, I immediately thought about the Black Stone of the Muslims, which is thought to have fallen from Heaven, so also as a meteor.

Do you think this is just a coincidence or did Tolkien take the Islamic belief into consideration perhaps? As I said, it was just a random thought...

[Inziladun]

For lack of any substantial evidence to the contrary, I'd have to consider it just happenstance.
Curiously, weren't the Stone of Erech and Elendil's tomb also black? And Orthanc as well.

*btw- like the new avvie*

[Beregond]

Interesting topic. I also don't have any facts to back up what I say, but I think meteors are the stuff of legends and stories everywhere. Their very nature, as objects seemingly sent from God out of the sky, would lend itself towards the mythic. Whether Tolkien was inspired by the Black Stone at Kaaba, or from some other legend (a Scandinavian one?) who can say? But the stone of Erech that Inziladun mentioned is more like to stone of Kaaba...

And that would be quite something if Orthanc was made of heavenly rock...what a massive meteor that would be!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, indeed; it's interesting that actually all stones of some importance in LotR&co, at least the ones I can think of, were black. But as for the Black Stone hypothesis... well, I cannot say if Tolkien would be one to do that; from just what I know, I would not consider it impossible. And maybe more probable connection in the case of Erech, for example (which was a cultic site by itself). In any case, it sounds nice as an idea.

[The Might]

Oh yeah, true! Totally missed the Erech stone...

The problem is that whilst the people in the area thought it had fallen from the sky, Isildur had actually brought it from Numenor.

How it had come by to exist in Numenor is unknown, of course it also may have been a meteor, but in the case of Eol's swords we know it for sure.

Still, nice ideas!

[Beregond]

Off topic, but I have to express this: why would Isildur carry a massive rock from Numenor when surely there were more important things to transport? And then they just left it in a rather out of the way place.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Beregond

Off topic, but I have to express this: why would Isildur carry a massive rock from Numenor when surely there were more important things to transport? And then they just left it in a rather out of the way place.

You know, I've considered that myself. I wonder if it merits a new thread.

[Alfirin]

Islamic tradition isn't the only one that ascribes special powers to the metal of meteroites. There is a long tradtion in folklore, Eastern and Western which states that the metal of meterorites (called "thunderbolt iron") has varios mytical and magical properties, and weapons made of this iron are believed to have magic powers as well. In some versions of the Arthurian legends, Excalibur is made of thunderbolt iron. Since a healthy vein of western folklore runs through Tolkein's work, maybe thats where he got the idea. Of maybe he read Lord Dunsay's The King of Elfland's Daugher at some point which also features a thunderbolt iron sword.

[The Might]

Hmmm good point there Alfirin, I was not aware of that and under the circumstances of Tolkien's studies it does seem to be a lot more plausible that actually he had been considering the European legends about meteorites when he thought of Eol's story.

And yes, the black stone of Erech does intrigue as after all it was nice, black, round and shiny but it wasn't a palantir, just a stone in the end. Maybe Isildur liked shiny rocks?

[Beregond]

Originally Posted by The Might

And yes, the black stone of Erech does intrigue as after all it was nice, black, round and shiny but it wasn't a palantir, just a stone in the end. Maybe Isildur liked shiny rocks?

He had a history of hanging on to shiny objects rather longer than was advisable.

[Lalwendë]

I noted in a thread not long ago that the Meneltarma on Numenor often makes me think of the Kaaba at Mecca, so this is an interesting thread!

Now, is it my imagination or is there something in one of the texts which states that the walls of Orthanc were constructed of Obsidian? That's not from meteorites but is an Igneous rock formed by volcanic activity (and very nice, too). And Tolkien noted that the walls around Minas Tirith were black and of the same stone.

If someone can clarify or not about this that would be excellent.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Now, is it my imagination or is there something in one of the texts which states that the walls of Orthanc were constructed of Obsidian? That's not from meteorites but is an Igneous rock formed by volcanic activity (and very nice, too). And Tolkien noted that the walls around Minas Tirith were black and of the same stone.

I would think the same goes for the Erech stonet too. Numenoreans were probably just fond of black stone (probably obsidian), it seems.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I noted in a thread not long ago that the Meneltarma on Numenor often makes me think of the Kaaba at Mecca, so this is an interesting thread!

Now, is it my imagination or is there something in one of the texts which states that the walls of Orthanc were constructed of Obsidian? That's not from meteorites but is an Igneous rock formed by volcanic activity (and very nice, too). And Tolkien noted that the walls around Minas Tirith were black and of the same stone.

If someone can clarify or not about this that would be excellent.

I don't recall anything saying it was made of Obsidian specifically. Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in The Silmarillion simply says:

And in the circle of Angrenost, which Men call Isengard, (the Númenóreans) made the pinnacle of Orthanc of unbreakable stone.

The outmost wall of Minas Tirith was indeed said to be similar:

Its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood.

The Siege of Gondor ROTK

Appearance-wise it seems like enough to Obsidian, but I don't think that particular rock could be described as 'unbreakable'.

[Alfirin]

My bet's on black basalt as being more likey. Obsidian is actually not all that strong; it is, after all, basically volcanic glass. It takes one hell of an edge when chipped (an obsidant knife blade, in fact is sharper than all but the most highly honed steel blades) but it is the one of the last stones you'd want to try and build with. you couuld assumedng you had chunks big enough polish it to mirror smoothness but it would take an incredilbe amount of time. Leaving the rough edges on the outside sounds good (it would basically mean you had a wall covered with flesh shearing edges) until you realize that should the walls be heated (as they migh by someone lighting fires around the bottom, during a seige) the stones wouln't just crack, they would shatter showering your enemies and your own tropps with a rain of razor sharp shrapne. Not to mention that obsidian has a lot of internal bubbles of its own which could pop and crack in these same temperatures.) Basalt on the other hand is very strong and study, weathering better than even granite. True it isnt neccerily shiny, but it will take a good polish if it is dressed and it can be sort of sparkly if it has the right crystals in it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes. Or why not to go with the simple, and in my opinion the best answer (of course just for myself, I am not forcing that on anybody), that it is simply an unknown substance. In other words, why do we have to always break the things to find out what they are... ( )

[Findegil]

Since the discussion has lost the swords of Eol fare behind, this might be out of place, but here it goes anyway: As fare as I remember the swords were not black to begin with. They were shiny steel as any other normal balde. Anglachel changed to the black colour only after the death of Beleg.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I don't see the connection at all, I am afraid. There is just no hints at all to the swords being connected to the Kaaba, obviously we all make weird association when reading the books and sometimes drift of in our own thoughts. . . but it is very unlikely that all of these where the intend of Tolkien.

Anyways is it not quite common in european folk lore that special storries are attached to black rocks?

In Kalundborg fjord there lies a black rock and the legend tells that it got it colour when Valdemar the Young, the son of King Valdemar (II) the Victorious, was accedentaly killed by an arrow during a hunt.
(He died right at the rock and it turned black from grief or something of the sort)

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Since the discussion has lost the swords of Eol fare behind, this might be out of place, but here it goes anyway: As fare as I remember the swords were not black to begin with. They were shiny steel as any other normal balde. Anglachel changed to the black colour only after the death of Beleg.

Respectfuly
Findegil

I beg your pardon, where was this mentioned? It was the black sword with the dark heart of its owner.

I can't recall this particular anime, but it had a meteorite and a black sword forged from it. Tolkien's influence perhaps, or are there other myths it might draw influence from?

With regards to black stones, I just want to mention in Chinese tradition jade is something very very precious; a jade is (unless I'm heavily mistaken) given to a child and the child must hold on to that jade. Jade changes color in time, and the color that will show after some years is used to predict the person's future, temperament, etc. I agree with Rune: JRRT may never have intended for the Kaaba to be related to his works.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Lindale

I can't recall this particular anime, but it had a meteorite and a black sword forged from it. Tolkien's influence perhaps, or are there other myths it might draw influence from?
.

Your proably thinking of Avatar: the Last Airbender , Sokka's sword is made for a meteorite, and it is indeed black.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Since the discussion has lost the swords of Eol fare behind, this might be out of place, but here it goes anyway: As fare as I remember the swords were not black to begin with. They were shiny steel as any other normal balde. Anglachel changed to the black colour only after the death of Beleg.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Anglachel was 'ever black' but 'its edges shone with pale fire' after it was reforged by the smiths of Nargothrond. This indicates that the sword was always black previous to its reforging, as the 'dark heart' of the smith who wrought it lay in it. In any case, it did not 'turn black' after Beleg's death. Whether the swords Anguirel and Anglachel were made of galvorn, the jet black metal devised by Eol for his armor, is up for conjecture; but it is interesting that the swords are said to be wrought of 'meteoric iron', and galvorn was a metal seemingly different than any other on earth (although never linked directly to meteoric iron in the text). In fact, the description of galvorn is nearly identical to mithril, save in color (jet black as opposed to silver):

...and he devised a metal as hard as the steel of the Dwarves, but so malleable that he could make it thin and supple; and yet it remained resistant to all blades and darts.

P.S. In regards to Tolkien and any influence from Islamic myth, I don't see it. I did a cursory glance through his Letters, and found nothing to substantiate such a link.

[HerenIstarion]

I do think it's just a coincidence

On a different trend (going off too)

why would Isildur carry a massive rock from Numenor when surely there were more important things to transport?

Well, within sight of oncoming catastrophe, one carries as much or as little as one can carry away. No knowing what other important things there might have been to better warrant transportation expenditures, it may have been simply considered work of art worth saving

[Findegil]

About the blade of Anglachel again: The first time that the blackness of the blade is mentioned is after the death of Beleg when Gwindor gives the Blade to Túrin in the Silmarillion:

And Gwindor gave the sword Anglachel into his hands, and Túrin knew that it was heavy and strong and had great power; but its blade was black and dull and its edges blunt. Then Gwindor said: 'This is a strange blade, and unlike any that I have seen in Middle-earth. It mourns for Beleg even as you do. But be comforted; for I return to Nargothrond of the house of Finarfin, and you shall come with me, and be healed and renewed.'

A black blade is not quiet nromal, so that I would expect to read about it in the first description when Anglachel was given to Beleg. Apart from that Gwindors reference to the mourning of the blade seems to include both, the blackness and the bluntness.
Considering this we have further on the follwoing:

The sword Anglachel was forged anew for him by cunning smiths of Nargothrond, and though ever black its edges shone with pale fire; and he named it Gurthang, Iron of Death.

In this circumstances for me 'though ever black' means that the smiths of Nargothrond could not mend the black, so they did mend the bluntness.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the blade of Anglachel again: The first time that the blackness of the blade is mentioned is after the death of Beleg when Gwindor gives the Blade to Túrin in the Silmarillion:
A black blade is not quiet nromal, so that I would expect to read about it in the first description when Anglachel was given to Beleg. Apart from that Gwindors reference to the mourning of the blade seems to include both, the blackness and the bluntness.
Considering this we have further on the follwoing:In this circumstances for me 'though ever black' means that the smiths of Nargothrond could not mend the black, so they did mend the bluntness.

Respectfully
Findegil

It is all a matter of circumstancial evidence, I suppose, and up for conjecture. When Gwindor says 'This is a strange blade, and unlike any that I have seen in Middle-earth,' he could be harkening back to the previous mention of the blade being made of meteoric material (hence 'unlike any that I have seen in Middle-earth'); therefore, there had to be some outward display of its alien nature. Also, there is Eol's penchant for black accoutrements (the armor he always wore was black), and the metal galvorn was unlike anything else in Middle-earth (but never directly attributed to meteors). The blackness of the blade is in line with Thingol's comment that the 'dark heart' of the smith who wrought it lay within it, and obviously a black blade would be an outward indicator of the evil within, and evidently it was otherworldly seeming well before Beleg was killed.

But again, and as with hundreds of other bits of Tolkien minutiae, we shall never get a definitive answer.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Islamic tradition isn't the only one that ascribes special powers to the metal of meteroites. There is a long tradtion in folklore, Eastern and Western which states that the metal of meterorites (called "thunderbolt iron") has varios mytical and magical properties, and weapons made of this iron are believed to have magic powers as well. In some versions of the Arthurian legends, Excalibur is made of thunderbolt iron. Since a healthy vein of western folklore runs through Tolkein's work, maybe thats where he got the idea. Of maybe he read Lord Dunsay's The King of Elfland's Daugher at some point which also features a thunderbolt iron sword.

You beat me to this idea by a mere... three weeks, actually.
This is how I would reason it out.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, whatever significance the Stone of Erech held for the Exiles, they were of the Faithful, and certainly wouldn't have brought a Melkorian cult-object or something with evil associatons, which clearly seems to be the case with Eol's blades.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

My bet's on black basalt as being more likey. Obsidian is actually not all that strong; it is, after all, basically volcanic glass. It takes one hell of an edge when chipped (an obsidant knife blade, in fact is sharper than all but the most highly honed steel blades) but it is the one of the last stones you'd want to try and build with. you couuld assumedng you had chunks big enough polish it to mirror smoothness but it would take an incredilbe amount of time. Leaving the rough edges on the outside sounds good (it would basically mean you had a wall covered with flesh shearing edges) until you realize that should the walls be heated (as they migh by someone lighting fires around the bottom, during a seige) the stones wouln't just crack, they would shatter showering your enemies and your own tropps with a rain of razor sharp shrapne. Not to mention that obsidian has a lot of internal bubbles of its own which could pop and crack in these same temperatures.) Basalt on the other hand is very strong and study, weathering better than even granite. True it isnt neccerily shiny, but it will take a good polish if it is dressed and it can be sort of sparkly if it has the right crystals in it.

Yes, the basalt (which can contain glass, but typically includes annealed crystals) should be harder than obsidian, which is basically just a silica rich glass. As you say, shiny and develops a sharp point or edge, but not all that strong. Certainly it would chip. I always figured that Orthanc was something more like basalt, perhaps formerly the throat of a volcano (like the Devils Post Pile in Wyoming).

As for meteorites, there are several varieties, including stony meteorites (not necessarily dramatically different than basalts in that they are dominated by silicate material, and iron meteorites, which consist of iron-nickel alloy. The stony meteorites look like basalt, while the iron meteorite would be metallic. I figured that the two swords mentioned were made from iron meteorites...

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Yes, the basalt (which can contain glass, but typically includes annealed crystals) should be harder than obsidian, which is basically just a silica rich glass. As you say, shiny and develops a sharp point or edge, but not all that strong. Certainly it would chip. I always figured that Orthanc was something more like basalt, perhaps formerly the throat of a volcano (like the Devils Post Pile in Wyoming).

Like... Orodruin?
Ha. I had to say it. Perhaps the Numenoreans ventured into Mordor and dragged back some volcanic rock to build their tower in Isengard.

[Alfirin]

I had an intruging thought yesterday.

I made many arguments in favor of basalt over obsidian, and I still hold this as being more likely. In the case of Barad Dur, Dol Guldur and any other edifices Sauron constucted basalt blocks are still the go-to choice. With Melkor however I realize that the matter is less cut and dried. Unlike Sauron after him, Melkor had direct acess to the powers and spirits of fire (Balrogs, Dragons etc.). Thefore Angbad and Melkor's other constructions might not have been "constucted" as we understand the word, that its buy mortaring blocks of stone together. If Melkor could cause a three peaked volcano to come out of the the ground, then it occrs to me he migh have had the skills to literally congleal the fortress of Angbad out of the raw lava of the earth, all in one peice. No black, no mortar one giant fortress shaped chunk of rock. If that is the case, then the obsidian argumetn isn't quite a silly as I first sounded since if you could control the lava you could drive all of the bubbles out of it, maybe even control the internal stucture so that you wound up with a version of obsidan more like tempered glass than ordinary glass. Heck come to think of it you could make the thing out of black diamond of a sort, if you had that much power. All I'm trying to get at is that, if you have that much control over the earth all of the rules of constuction, as we understand it, go out the window.