Character Analysis Thread

[Nazgûl-king]

I thought this would make some interesting discussions; here is the thread to analyze the various characters of Middle-earth. Each week we can choose another character or a specific character relationship (such as the relationship between Merry and Pippin) to study. Would anyone here be interested in such an idea, and if so which character or characters would you guys like to start with?

Edit:

This is as for as I had planned the project:

Week 1: Merry and Pippin
Week 2: The Nazgûl
Week 3: Gandalf and Saruman
Week 4: Boromir and Faramir
Week 5: Frodo, Sam, and Gollum
Week 6: Treebeard
Week 7: Beorn
Week 8: Bilbo Baggins
Week 9: Fëanor
Week 10: Maeglin
Week 11: Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli
Week 12: Gríma Wormtongue
Week 13: Húrin

[Thinlómien]

Even though there probably exists a lot of discussion on those topics on this forum already, why not. It could be interesting.

[Boromir88]

Well Thinlo, I don't think many of those threads specifically deal with characters, they just go along with the discussion. I don't know if there's been a "structured" discussion for the characters (like the CbC discussions).

Perhaps you can tell us a bit more, Nazgul-King, as far as how you wanted this to go. Like the first week talk about key hobbit characters? The Fellowship? Elves?...etc

[Nazgûl-king]

Ok, let’s start with the characters Merry and Pippin! Here are some questions to get us started:

1. How do you think the relationship between Merry and Pippin has grown throughout the course of the story?

2. What do you think was the biggest event in their characters development? Why do you think this event caused this development?

3. How do you think their being separated (with Merry in Rohan and Pippin at Gondor) effected their characters development?

4. Merry ends up being the master of Buckland and Pippin the Thain of the Shire, how do you think the things they went through on their journey prepared them for taking these positions and would they have gotten them had they not gone through what they did?

[MatthewM]

No offense Nazgûl-king, but that sounds like I'm taking a test. Where's my blue book?

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Hmm, yes. It does feel sort of like we're being quizzed on how well we can go back and check through facts, and apply them to character development, or something... (Not that I wouldn't do this for fun, being an English major and all though I think your questions are a bit too broad.)
But I think MatthewM's frustration could carry over to other 'Downers. Is there any way to restructure this thread so it feels a bit more like discussion? Unless, of course, Nazgul, you actually do want your thread to be run like a literary criticism forum? I'd be up for that, but a lot of other people might not...

[ArathornJax]

What are your general impressions of Merry and Pippin and their role in the story?

I have always thought that Merry and Pippin were extra baggage until they were seized t the Falls of Rauros and taken by the Uruk's there. I think that journey began the transformation of them as characters, or let us as readers see them more in depth. I also think that at this point the wisdom of Gandalf in trusting to friendship proved itself over a great Elf Lord in the company. Here Merry and Pippin allowed Frodo and Sam to be able escape with the Orcs and Uruk's taking Merry and Pippin and high tailing it towards Fangorn.

However, I don't think Merry and Pippin changed that much yet. They have a lot of fun at Isengard and the foolishness of Pippin the Orthanc Stone shows that they are still kinda of treating this as a journey.

I think the other area where they really grew up there experiences from when Pippin looked into the Stone forward. Merry's relationship with Theoden and with Dernhelm climaxing with the stabbing of the Witch King brought tenderness and the horrors of war to him. I think this experience changed Merry and his exposure to Theoden and the army of Rohan brought him leadership experience that he personally needed.

Pippin had his moments in Minis Tirith, especially in saving Faramir. His experience before the Black Gate in killing the Troll and coming to terms with what he thought was his own end, rounded him off.

I think both reflect the sense of a solider going off to war treating it like a holiday or an adventure. Then the realities of it begin to hit and they begin to take their toll on the individual. This can be devestating or refining depending on the support and healing they receive. Merry and Pippin were able to heal and be tempered from their experiences and exposures.

However, one thing that I really like about Merry and Pippin is that though they mature in the story, their base character traits stay the same. The retain their sense of humor and who they are. They are tempered, but they are themselves and that is refreshing I think to see. People go through major struggles yet still remain their positive and refreshing outlook (and humor).

Not sure if that is what people have in mind, but I just kinda of went with what I know of the story, the characters and my own inferences. Overall, I enjoy Merry and Pippin and the role they play in the story.

Edit: I will answer one question that is specific. Thain and Master of Buckland were inheirited positions, and so Merry and Pippin would have received those positions when their fathers passed away. I think their experiences in the War of the Ring refined them and made them ready for their roles. Anything else would be speculation as Tolkien never touched on that aspect.

[Nazgûl-king]

ArathornJax, that is what I had in mind, I had intended for the questions to spark discussion. So anyway, I think their separation with Merry in Rohan and Pippin going to Gondor played a part in their development as well, as it enabled them to kind of branch out a little and find their own individual strengths.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

Ok, let’s start with the characters Merry and Pippin! Here are some questions to get us started:

1. How do you think the relationship between Merry and Pippin has grown throughout the course of the story?

3. How do you think their being separated (with Merry in Rohan and Pippin at Gondor) effected their characters development?

Hmm. You really sound like my English Lit professor, but tis ok, I love my course anyway.

Merry and Pippin have been close since the beginning of the book. They conspired with Sam, remember, to find out the whatnots about Frodo and Bilbo? It seems to me that Merry, Pippin, Sam, and Fatty were like a little clique (for want of better term, the thing I wish to use is barkada in my language), but as they needed someone to remain behind in Crickhollow, and since Fatty (who as far as Tolkien was concerned not related to the big powerful families. Tolkien was quite fond of telling stories of the high-and-mighty, generally speaking, wasn't he?)

They show quite a lot of loyalty to Frodo, even at the darkest moments. But it stroked me as a sort of naivety--remember the mushrooms and the bathroom songs? They were fond of their weird cousin Frodo, and more so of the weirder cousin Bilbo. When the Black Riders came, it was a sort of instinct of fear and flight, but good thing they for all their childish naivety held on to their wits.

Skipping this to the Council of Elrond, Gandalf saw, or took a risk anyway, that these two "blokes" would mature--kinda like the risk he took when he persuaded Thorin take Bilbo in The Hobbit. For one, I do not think it was too big a risk that Gandalf took, since when he appeared as Gandalf the White to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, he said something "Their coming is like the falling of little rocks that starts an avalanche." But as aforementioned, even with Treebeard in Isengard they were still childish, especially Pippin with the Palantir.

Now this Palantir incident at the movie, which was a good addition, we see that Merry had at the time more maturity, so to speak, when he asked "Why do you always have to look?" Jackson may have added this to have Merry as a sort of foil for childish Pippin, who had already asserted his childishness in the FotR movie when he played with the arrow in the skeleton that fell, that caused the goblins in Moria to learn of the intruders' presence.

But at the book, he is maybe just like Pippin:

"'A beautiful, restful night!' said Merry to Aragorn. 'Some folk have wonderful luck. He did not want to sleep, and he wanted to ride with Gandalf--and there he goes! Instead of being turned into a stone himself to stand here for ever as a warning.'

"'If you had been the first to lift the Orthanc stone, and not he, how would it be now?' said Aragorn. 'You might have done worse. Who can say?..."

When they parted, Merry left at Rohan and Pippin at Minas Tirith, they both get a sort of whack-on-the-head that the world was not just fun and games. The threats, the Wizard business that they thought were matters of play, they suddenly were torn from their shells.

There was a good point, a good reason, why Theoden wanted Merry to remain behind. He saw the child in Merry, although he did not realize that Merry was clamoring to be treated as a grown-up. When Eowyn, who also is a character who "has to grow up" (but this is debatable, if we do Feminism). So jumping, we can say that during the ride and the battle Merry was suddenly faced, with another character who thought that war is just another game, with the terrible harshness of war. And not just the orcs, he was suddenly with the number-two evil, the Witch king.

Well, to simplify things Tolkien wanted his heroes to win, and Eowyn and Merry, who both had their epiphanies during and after the battle at Pelennor, survived. Eowyn's case is interesting, but let's just leave that at that.

Pippin now. The Palantir incident, and meeting Denethor and putting up with his madness, this contributed to his awakening that he had such potential. He didn't even understand the subtle political strife between Aragorn and Denethor! The meeting with Beregond and Beregond's son provides him company, and if you allow, some fun. A sort of consuelo for the absence of his dear friend Merry.

But even a child will recognize the folly that Denethor's madness implied when he tried to burn Faramir alive. He is jolted to life, faced with a madman, a madman with authority, and he jumps to Gandalf for help, since he knows that he has no power over Denethor. I think it is at this point that Pippin understand the gravity of the whole War of the Ring business, now that he has no more idle time for his fun and games, now that there is no more Merry with whom he cannot laugh.

Ahh, my analysis ends here, I have another paper to do. Adios!

[Nazgûl-king]

Sorry it took me so long to update: This time I am going to try things differently, I got the idea for a character analysis from another site and that was how they had it set up but that idea didn’t seem to go over so well here so I'll try a different approach this time:

This week: The Nazgûl

Know by many other names, the nine servants of Sauron use fear as their greatest weapon. They are completely loyal to Sauron, though I wonder what their loyalties were before they were given the nine rings. We know that at least three of the nine were Black Númenóreans and that one of the nine was an Easterling.

In the book Fellowship of the Ring it is said that "at all times they can smell the blood of living things, and they desire and hate it." I find this interesting, and I suppose their hatred for the smell of the blood of living beings could come from the fact that they themselves are not living but are in a state between life and death and thus the smell of the blood of the living torments them. Any thoughts on this?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I think both reflect the sense of a solider going off to war treating it like a holiday or an adventure. Then the realities of it begin to hit and they begin to take their toll on the individual. This can be devestating or refining depending on the support and healing they receive. Merry and Pippin were able to heal and be tempered from their experiences and exposures.

Isn't this what it was like for Tolkien?

[ArathornJax]

Indeed I think that Tolkien's experiences in war provided for him a depth that he was able to use with his characters, including Merry and Pippin. An interesting view is too look at how the experiences of each of the Hobbits in terms of how the deal with the after affects of war is similar yet different.

As for he Nazgul, I think their smelling of blood was a catch 22 for them. First, it reminded them of what they were orginally, human and mortal, and for that,they desired blood because they wanted or desired to be human or at least mortal again with all their power and glory back. I think they desire it most of all because they wanted their individual freedom or independance back.
Yet they also hated the smell of blood because it reminded them of what they had given up to obtain the power, wealth and control that they had had while mere mortals. Imagine obtaining everything that the world says you should want, power, wealth, dominion, strength and glory, and then becoming a mere servant to the one who gave it to you. Living in servititude and living between life and death. I also think they hated it because they had rejected this life and had become purly in the control of Sauron. That would gall someone who in the past had been a formidable leader, even one of the key leaders of their day and they eventually fell, one by one under the dominion and control of Sauron. Imagine Ar-Pharazon as the Witch-King. There would have been some desire to have that power back independant of Sauron, and also hatred that he was in servititude to Sauron. Not sure I am making sense as it is late so I'll stop and retire.

Cheers!

[Groin Redbeard]

I love Aragorn's description of the Nazgul on Weathertop, so much is revealed to us about them.

The one thing that I find most interesting about them is that they do not see very well in the daylight, and that they do well in the darkness, in fear. This I thought was a major draw back to them, and possibly one fault that they had in battle, since they can smell better than see.

[Nazgûl-king]

Ok, I have decided to switch weeks 3 and 4 so...

This Week: Boromir and Faramir

I find the relationship between the two brothers to be quite interesting; one of the points I find interesting is the fact that their mother's death, while detaching Denethor from the family, only seems to have drawn Boromir and Faramir closer together. The reason for this I think is, that when faced with grief Denethor seems to keep to himself and try to deal with it alone, while Boromir and Faramir seem more likely to turn to others for strength, as when their mother died Boromir and Faramir drew closer after their mothers death, most likely I think because they turned toward each other for strength, while Denethor tried to deal with the loss alone. I also find it interesting how, even though Denethor quite openly favored Boromir there was no jealousy or rivalry between the two brothers. So what are your thoughts on the sons of Denethor?

[MatthewM]

I have been working on an essay entitled "A Defense of Character: Boromir" (www.swordofboromir.com) for over two years now, and one section of my work is entitled "Boromir and Faramir", discussing the incredible relationship of the Sons of Denethor. Here is a part of that section...

In quoting The Lord of the Rings, I use the Houghton Mifflin 1994 paperback edition, with Revised “Note on the Text” by Douglas A. Anderson with the 2002 New Line Cinema cover design.

I. Boromir and Faramir

When speaking of Boromir, it might be hard to keep the name of Faramir away, and vice versa. So in that respect I shall speak first of the two sons of Gondor. They were brothers, warriors, and best friends. Although we never read a direct conversation between them, we can tell by the way each talked of one another how much they valued their companionship. Better evidence beyond the text of The Lord of the Rings lies in The Return of the King: Appendix A under Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion:

“Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father’s favour or for the praise of men. It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.” (p. 1032)

This description of brotherly love and unity devoid of all jealousy is a profound and bold statement about the relationship between Boromir and Faramir. Being a child, it is easy to get jealous or scornful towards another, especially a sibling. Tolkien informs us by this passage that those negative qualities were not present in the growing relationship of the two, apparently regardless that Boromir was “bossy” (Letters, p. 323). Taking into account Boromir’s status in Gondor as its finest warrior (which in my opinion made bossiness an alright trait), great humbleness must have been displayed by Boromir for him to believe that not one in Gondor could challenge his little brother. This bond is essential to understand as one thinks of the dream that came to both Boromir and Faramir, and the claiming of the long journey to Rivendell by Boromir.

Despite the love the brothers had for one another, Tolkien makes clear the differences between Boromir and Faramir:

“Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother’s.” (Appendix A, p. 1032)

Concerning appearance an anomaly presents itself in The Return of the King when Pippin first see’s Denethor’s face as he is reminded of Aragorn and not so much of Boromir (p. 738). None the less, Boromir and Faramir must have borne somewhat similar looks to their father as Appendix A reads. Concerning personality, it might be pondered on how the brother’s had such a wonderful relationship if they were so unlike in the above regards. The answer seems to lie in Faramir’s accepting and humble personality, as he questions Frodo on Isildur’s Bane:

“If it were a thing that gave advantage in battle, I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and the fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it. Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.” (The Two Towers, p. 656)

Although not directly showing how humble we learn Faramir to be, this passage tells us how well Faramir truly knew his older brother and was used to such things. In the Letters, Tolkien writes that Faramir was “accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air” (p. 323). “Rash” and “anxious” catch as somewhat negative (yet human) terms to Boromir’s personality, and it is understood here that Faramir knew how to handle his brother in these certain situations in which Boromir took on these normal human traits.

[skip spence]

It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Taking into account Boromir’s status in Gondor as its finest warrior (which in my opinion made bossiness an alright trait), great humbleness must have been displayed by Boromir for him to believe that not one in Gondor could challenge his little brother.

To be fair, when it's said that Boromir was of like mind, it means that he too thought that no one could rival himself, not that no one could rival his kid brother. As heroic Boromir might have been, humility wasn't one of his chief traits.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by skip spence

To be fair, when it's said that Boromir was of like mind, it means that he too thought that no one could rival himself, not that no one could rival his kid brother. As heroic Boromir might have been, humility wasn't one of his chief traits.

I disagree - Boromir believed nobody could rival his brother.

"It proved otherwise at the test" - the proof is right there. The test was the temptation of the Ring. Boromir tried to take it, thus he failed the test. Faramir opted to let Frodo go. Thus he passed the test.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Like skip, I've always understood the line about Boromir being of like mind as a tongue-in-cheek reference to Boromir's high opinion of himself. I can see that the words can be interpreted differently if a reader wishes to see them more positively in regard to Boromir, but I never read that meaning from them. It is precisely the roundabout way of expression which is so slyly accurate!

[MatthewM]

It seems to me that after Tolkien had just talked about the love the brothers had for one another and the lack of jealousy present between the two, that it only makes sense for Tolkien to be speaking about Boromir believing that nobody could rival his brother. The other meaning, although I can see how you get it, just doesn't fit for me, given because I've never thought it before and also given what Tolkien was just talking about prior to saying it.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

"It proved otherwise at the test" - the proof is right there. The test was the temptation of the Ring. Boromir tried to take it, thus he failed the test. Faramir opted to let Frodo go. Thus he passed the test.

Still I'm afraid you're mistaken... Let me break it down. This is how you've interpreted the quote:


Faramir thinks that Boromir is the top man in Gondor.

Boromir thinks that Faramir is the top man in Gondor.


To say "it proved otherwise at the test" is to say that what they thought beforehand didn't turn out to be true. But to say that both were mistaken wouldn't make any sense in the context of the story. Who then was the top man in Gondor? It must be someone else.

If you read the passage as I (and Estelyn) do however it makes perfect sense to say "Yet it proved otherwise at the test":


Faramir thinks that Boromir is the top man in Gondor.

Boromir thinks that Boromir is the top man in Gondor.


It proved otherwise because Faramir passed the test his elder brother failed, like your said yourself. They were both wrong: Faramir, not Boromir, was the unrivalled one.

[skip spence]

I'm going to cook some dinner now but later tonight I think I will write a little bit about Boromir. I understand that you like this character a lot and feels that he's been misunderstood. I agree completely.

[Boromir88]

Nice stuff on Boromir.

I would just like to add a couple things. Boromir seems to catch a lot of flack for being "weak" and falling to the Ring's temptation, but when you look at the person he was, he is very admirable, and actually reaches a level of maturity not many people are able to do. That is his acceptance of personal responsibility.

Let's say Jim and Kim fail a test. Jim blames the "F" on the teacher, on the kid sitting in front with the distracting red hair, on the "tough" questions...blames everyone (and everything) but himself. Kim on the other hand realizes perhaps she didn't study enough, perhaps she didn't get a good nights sleep...etc. The bottomline is she knows she is to blame for failing her test. She has accepted personal responsibility.

Other characters like Grima and Gollum all fall short of redemption because they constantly blame others for their misfortunes. Grima blames Saruman for "making" him kill Lotho:

"You told me to; you made me do it," he hissed.~The Scouring of the Shire

He blames Saruman for being unable to "leave" him (and Gandalf tells Grima to "Do it!" then):

The beggar turned and slouched past whimpering: "Poor old Grima! Poor old Grima! Always beaten and cursed. How I hate him! I wish I could leave him!"
"Then leave him!" said Gandalf.~Many Partings

Gollum blames Deagol for Deagol's own death. Gollum's justification was it was "his birthday" and Deagol "ought to have given it" to him. The only actions we control are our own, and these two are never able to accept the responsibility for their own actions.

Boromir on the other hand does. He first blames trying to take the Ring from Frodo on the "madness" that consumed him. I'll note that Boromir is actually telling the truth, the Ring did fill him with "madness." However, on his deathbed he no longer blames the Ring, but he accepts responsibility, and accepts the consequences of his actions:

"I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said. "I am sorry. I have paid."~The Departure of Boromir

He not only admits to Aragorn what he did, but he realizes he is to blame for what he tried to do ("I am sorry"),and he accepts the consequences of his actions ("I have paid.")

Coming to that realization that you are personally to blame for your own failings is something extremely difficult to do (I'll admit there's lots of times when I like to throw the blame at others). It is because of this, though, that I believe Boromir dies a much better man...well...than anyone else really.

[Bêthberry]

Sorry to interrupt this Boromir-love-in, but I've had a chance to read this thread from the start and have a few questions about the Nazzies.

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

This week: The Nazgûl

Know by many other names, the nine servants of Sauron use fear as their greatest weapon. They are completely loyal to Sauron, though I wonder what their loyalties were before they were given the nine rings. We know that at least three of the nine were Black Númenóreans and that one of the nine was an Easterling.

In the book Fellowship of the Ring it is said that "at all times they can smell the blood of living things, and they desire and hate it." I find this interesting, and I suppose their hatred for the smell of the blood of living beings could come from the fact that they themselves are not living but are in a state between life and death and thus the smell of the blood of the living torments them. Any thoughts on this?

Okay, other than having to fight desperately against remembering that it was the Spanish Inquisition who used fear as their greatest weapon, or as one of their greatest weapons, or as among their greatest weapons, I find this trait bloody interesting. It reminds me of course of vampires, who are also trapped between life and death and whose taste for blood is a torment. And I cannot recall there being any discussion here on the Downs of the Wraiths as in any way similar to vampires. (Of course, I haven't read all the threads and so I could have missed it!) The only specific vampire reference I can recall is that of Luthien.

Anyhow, Nazgûl-king, can you give us a more precise reference for this quotation? Much as I love FotR, I don't have time to reread all of it searching for this quotation. And I really would like to see how far to extend this similarity.

[skip spence]

Boromir was the captain of the White Tower, proud and strong, and a born leader and champion. He had a strong sense of duty, and his main duty, as he understood it, was to protect Minas Tirith and serve his father. And much thanks to him, Gondor had been able to fend off the attacks from the east so far. He had great faith in his people's ability to defend themselves, but the enemies of Gondor always seemed to come in greater numbers and strenght, while the list of allies was ever shortening. Where were the elves? Nowhere to be seen. What about other men? They were either fighting for Sauron or busy defending themselves. The Dwarves? You got to be kidding! From his perspective Gondor stood alone. And he knew very well that they eventually would fall unless they recieved aid. Sauron was just too strong, he knew this. He was desperate, or else he wouldn't have left Gondor and made the long and perilous journey to Rivendell begging for help.

Here in Rivendell he learns that the One has been found and is in the hands of the wise. He is told that Sauron's victory would be complete the very moment the ring is back on his finger, and that he desperately seeks to win it back. He's also told that Sauron's greatest fear is that the ring will be used against him which would seriously threaten his plans for world domination.

Then, to his amazement, Galdalf and Elrond suggest that the midget uhm hobbit Frodo should go to Mordor and throw the ring into the Crack of Doom (that name always cracks me up hehe). A fool's hope Gandalf calls it. Yet Galdalf is a Maia who was present at the Great Music, and he has a profound understanding of the designs of Eru. Gandalf knows this is their best hope. But for Boromir this hope is indeed a fool's hope. He has spent his life within sight of the mountains of Mordor and knows that no one can have any hope of getting within sight of Mount Doom , let alone reaching the Crack of Doom. From his point of view, they are just going to hand the ring over to the enemy. And from his point of view of course, this is utter madness. Maybe they can't use the ring, he can accept this, but why throw it away? At the very least they should take it to the vaults of Minas Tirith - then at least they would have a fighting chance.

When the counsel decides that Frodo must seek to destroy the ring, he accompanies them, partly because he wants to do what he can to help, partly because his home lies south, but mostly because he hopes to convince the party to come with him to Minas Tirith. At Parth Galen, where a decision must be made, he must have been torn apart inside. One the one hand he has sworn to protect Frodo, his companion, and it would be completely against his principles to use force and take the ring from him. On the other hand he believes that his father would have wanted him to take the ring to him, by any means possible, and he also firmly believes that Frodo is doomed to fail if if tries to destroy the ring. Thus, he makes a desperate attempt to convince Frodo to come with him, but when that doesn't work he's finally overcome by the temptation of the ring. When Frodo escapes, he finally understands the full truth behind the warnings from Gandalf, Elrond and Aragorn; he understands that he did wrong because of the ring, and that the same thing would happen to anyone who tried to wield it. In his life he was a great man, and he died with his honour intact.

So put yourself in his shoes. Would you have acted any differently? Boromir certainly wasn't an evil man. Perhaps he was too proud, but he always did what he thought was right and what he deemed to be in the best interest of his home country Gondor.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Jim blames the "F" on the teacher, on the kid sitting in front with the distracting red hair...

Yeah red-heads are the only discriminated-against minority not protected by law ...we get blamed for everything...

*hoping from some solidarity will protect her from digression skwerls, because they are a bit ginger too... *

[Nazgûl-king]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Sorry to interrupt this Boromir-love-in, but I've had a chance to read this thread from the start and have a few questions about the Nazzies.

Okay, other than having to fight desperately against remembering that it was the Spanish Inquisition who used fear as their greatest weapon, or as one of their greatest weapons, or as among their greatest weapons, I find this trait bloody interesting. It reminds me of course of vampires, who are also trapped between life and death and whose taste for blood is a torment. And I cannot recall there being any discussion here on the Downs of the Wraiths as in any way similar to vampires. (Of course, I haven't read all the threads and so I could have missed it!) The only specific vampire reference I can recall is that of Luthien.

Anyhow, Nazgûl-king, can you give us a more precise reference for this quotation? Much as I love FotR, I don't have time to reread all of it searching for this quotation. And I really would like to see how far to extend this similarity.

It is from the chapter A Knife in the Dark, on page 214 of the version of the book that I have. It is said by Aragorn after Frodo hase been stabbed, and when Merry asks Aragorn if the Black Riders could see. Hope that helps you!

[MatthewM]

skip spence, you are right, Boromir is my favorite character and everything that you explained in your last post is what I have been saying for quite some time now, and I'm glad you feel the same way about him. My whole essay is in defense of Boromir, because all too often people will deem him "evil" because they have no knowledge of his circumstances. Most of which you have pointed out.

I know if I were in Boromir's shoes I would have acted the same way. He was with four little people that he wasn't even sure truly existed until the Council, one ragged guy who claimed his country's rule (in turn supplanting his father), an elf and dwarf (two races Boromir had probably little to no communication with in his life), and this wizard guy who came as he pleased to Gondor to browse their libraries and who tried to tell Denethor how to rule things. So, as Captain General of my country, the most important warrior of Gondor, I would have acted the same exact way as he did. He did what he thought was right, and he did it with responsibility. Indeed, he died with his honor and greatness intact.

I suppose you could be right about the test quote- although it's still going to take awhile to sink that one in my thick skull. I get that Boromir was "overly" proud, and some see that as negative. I don't. You have to be bossy and proud in my opinion to be a strong leader of Man's greatest armies. Look at Ulysses S. Grant- would the Union have won the Civil War if Ulysses didn't push and push regardless of bodies lost? If he did not push for Unconditional Surrender, would the Union still have been united? Doubt it. I get ragged on for my proudness all the time. I care not!

Boro88- Nice comparisons.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Skip Spence

So put yourself in his shoes.

Of course, those of us who are hobbits might politely decline this command as an unnecessary encumbrance.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Coming to that realization that you are personally to blame for your own failings is something extremely difficult to do (I'll admit there's lots of times when I like to throw the blame at others). It is because of this, though, that I believe Boromir dies a much better man...well...than anyone else really.

It is interesting to consider that, in a story which in part is devoted to "the gift of man", we actually have so few characters dying other than the unnumbered many unidentified foot soldiers of both sides and some hobbits, Saruman and Grima in The Scouring of the Shire.

There's the Witch King, to whom no possibly of redeption is depicted. And Denethor himself who is usually accounted mad and therefore not fully responsible.

We have Gollem, whose final leap is the quintessential conundrum of the story. We have Frodo, who apparently dies in the Undying Lands, although of course his tragedy is that he blames himself all too much. (This could be debated I suspect.)

And in the Appendix we have Aragorn's heroic, idealised death, chosen, and not left to the sorry decline of infirmity. And then Arwen's sorrowful, lonely, achingly sad experience of the grim, private reality of death.

No, I'm not sure we have enough examples to justify saying that Boromir dies the better death.

Thanks, Naz, for the reference. It is so nice to be able to rely on the kindness of strangers and those who reread Tolkien constantly.

[ArathornJax]

I think that Boromir is a very tragic figure in LOTR and has many good qualities, yet he is very human. I believe he is very human because of the weaknesses that open him up to being tempted by the ring. The ring plays on his desire to protect his city/country/people and on his own ego, his desire for personal glory. Thus like many of us, he is very noble in many ways, yet his ego also leads to temptation and mistakes.
Boromir is also valiant, brave, courageous, and helpful. He looks after others and basically lives up to a very chivalrous code (as we see at the attempt at the Redhorn among one example). So in the end, it is his human weaknesses that leads him to yield to the enticings of the ring. He quickly realizes what he has done, and then gives his life in defended Merry and Pippin. Before dying he confesses his error to Aragorn, and then surrenders up his life.

One thing that many people fail to realize also, is the role that Boromir as a character plays to the plot. Though the actions of the day when Boromir tried to seize the ring and its consequences are seen as evil with the breaking of the Fellowship, it is really an unhappy day. The day is unhappy because of the death of the noble Boromir, but those the events of the day seem evil, they result in the greater good. Frodo escapes Boromir (and thus Sauron twice) and leaves to Mordor with Sam in which eventually the ring will be destroyed. Merry and Pippin are taken, but eventually escape and come to Treebeard and the Ents and aid in rousing them to action against Saruman. This also leads to Merry stabbing the Witch King and Pippin saving Faramir. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli reunite with Gandalf the White and free Theoden from Wormtongue's influence and control. This allows Rohan to defeat the armies of Saruman and then go to Gondor's aid via several directions. Thus in a way, all of this would not have happen, even the final victory, if Boromir had not given in to his temptation for glory and protection of himself and his people and thus resulting in the Breaking of the Fellowship. I like to think that not only is there a ballad or two made after the War of the Ring in rememberance of Boromir, and of his valiant and noble deeds.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

One could actually say that by his death at that particular moment, Boromir saved Gondor and Minas Tirith. If the Fellowship had not broken that day and Boromir had lived, Aragorn would either have gone to Mordor with Frodo or he would have gone to Minas Tirith with Boromir. Though Rohan might have been stirred into action by Gandalf after his return, any road Aragorn took but the one to Dunharrow would NOT have sent him on the Paths of the Dead, to eventually stop the Black Fleet from coming up the Anduin and turning the battle of the Pellenor into a resounding defeat. We are regularly reminded in LotR that chance "as it is called" is not so random a thing as it seems. The board on which the game is set has many pieces in motion, and what seems like the untimely loss of a knight too early in the game can actually lead to the final checkmate. If Boromir had known what would happen as a result of his death at Parth Galen, I suspect he would have done whatever was necessary to achieve that end; if he believed, like his father, that the protection of Gondor was the only hope of the West, he would have laid down his own life to ensure it. That he gave his life in defending Merry and Pippin without any knowledge of a later good that would come of it showed that he was genuinely noble at heart -- moreso, I think, than his father. He could have wallowed in despair but did not; he pulled himself together and did his duty, a test of heart and will with no promise of greater glory, a trial his father could not pass.

[ArathornJax]

I was reading in Scull and Hammond's A Reader's Companion on Boromir and found an interesting point. As I stated, one of the things I like about Boromir is that he is very human. He desires the ring for his own glorification (ego) and justifies it by claiming to want to defend his city, people and country. For me Gandalf already realized back in Hobbiton that this is the danger of the ring according to the weakness of the person who has it or seeks it. Gandalf states:
"Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good."

The Ring attacks Boromir through his desires to lead, protect, and to seek his own glory. We see that when he says to Frodo that "True-hearted Men, they will not be corrupted. We men of Minis Tirith have been staunch through long years of trial."

He then goes on to say ""We do not desire the power of wizard-lords, only strength to defend ourselves, strength in just cause. . . The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory. What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir? The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!"

The quote is long, but fits Fair Use Guidelines and shows that the Ring is tempting Boromir first by having him see himself using the Ring to defend and lead his people to victory against their enemy, Sauron. His own ego comes in when he appeals to the notion of what a great leader could do like Aragorn, and if he refuses why not Boromir? The Ring appeals to his view of himself as becoming so great that not only would he drive the hosts of Mordor, but he would have ALL men flocking to his banner for him to command.

Now my point in bringing this up is not to attack Boromir. As I've stated I like the guy and think in someways he is one of the most human characters in the trilogy. I also believe he was fated to go on the quest and fated to be tempted so that the Fellowship could achieve its end. However, I wonder if this is how Sauron tempted some of the Nine in terms of getting them to accept their ring of power? Did he appeal to a personal situation or a political situation and offer a solution? Did the then also appeal to their ego and personal pride with shades of personal glory?

So, would Boromir have been one of the Nine had he lived so many years ago? I would love to hear your thoughts on this as I could see Sauron going after Boromir to make him one of his Nine IF Boromir had been alive at the time. Would Boromir have given in? I'm not sure on that, but I would hope that in the same way that when the temptation was removed with the ring, he quickly gained his rational thought back, and returned to his noble acts and done his duty as he did with Merry and Pippin. I would hope in the past that he would have done the same.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

Did he appeal to a personal situation or a political situation and offer a solution? Did the then also appeal to their ego and personal pride with shades of personal glory?

What do you think Galadriel did? Her test of mind is what fueled Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Her test awoke that feeling he had when he first saw the One Ring at the Council. Faramir himself confirms that Men seldom walk out of the Golden Wood unchanged-

"You passed through the Hidden Land, said Faramir, but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, ‘tis said." -The Two Towers

Originally Posted by Arathorn

So, would Boromir have been one of the Nine had he lived so many years ago?

No way.

On a side note, isn't this thread supposed to be talking about the relationship between Boromir and Faramir? Everybody seems to be isolating Boromir here.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

What do you think Galadriel did? Her test of mind is what fueled Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Her test awoke that feeling he had when he first saw the One Ring at the Council. Faramir himself confirms that Men seldom walk out of the Golden Wood unchanged-

"You passed through the Hidden Land, said Faramir, but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, ‘tis said." -The Two Towers

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you mean.

Are you saying it was Galadriel who instigated Boromir's downfall rather than Boromir's own pride? Are you implying that she was somehow implicated in the Breaking of the Fellowship? Or are you suggesting this is Faramir's interpretation of events, more of his hero worship of his older brother?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Faramir may have confirmed the apparently popular belief that Men do not go through the Golden Wood unchanged -- the Rohirrim also have that belief: "Few escape her nets," says Eomer -- but Aragorn's comment points out the error often in it:

"Say not unscathed, but if you say unchanged, then maybe you will speak the truth... But lore wanes in Gondor, Boromir, if in the city of those who once were wise they now speak evil of Lothlorien."

and

"Perilous indeed," said Aragorn, "fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them."

And Sam later puts his finger on it:

"I don't know about perilous," said Sam. "It strikes me that folk take their peril with them into Lorien, and finds it there because they've brought it. But perhaps you could call her perilous, because she's so strong in herself. You, you could dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock; or drownd yourself, like a hobbit in a river. But neither rock nor river would be to blame."

One cannot in any way blame Galadriel for awakening the peril in Boromir's own heart; it was already there, and she in no way put it there. She was, perhaps, involved with that awakening, possibly because Boromir saw in her a strength he himself did not possess -- ultimately, the strength to resist the lure of the Ring. As Sam also says, "it's my opinion that in Lorien he first saw clearly what I guessed sooner: what he wanted." Perhaps in the testing of his heart, Boromir saw in Galadriel the strength of someone who wields an Elven Ring, not clearly realizing that this is what he saw. But perhaps he suspected, or at least entertained the possibility that Galadriel bore one of the Three -- how else could she have such strength and power in her? (a rhetorical question, of course) -- and that made him fully realize that the Ring would give him the strength he needed to protect Gondor and vanquish its great Enemy.

Even so, in the end, he acquitted himself. He could have chosen to continue to pursue Frodo, like another Gollum, until he tracked him down and got the Ring from him. Faramir could have taken the Ring from Frodo by force. They did not. At the last, they resisted the promises and lies of the Ring, went against what they both knew would be the will of their father, and did their greater duty: as a servant and steward of Gondor and those who looked to her for aid. They surpassed their father, who held his duty as being to Gondor alone, and ultimately, he betrayed his own office because he would not accept that it required him to give up his rulership to a rightful heir of the royal line. Denethor believes that Boromir would have "brought him a mighty gift," but I think that he did not know his son quite as well as he thought. Boromir could have pressed on, seized the Ring, and attempted to bring it to his father, but even before his death, he had turned aside from that path. I believe that when he realized what he had done in attempting to take the Ring from Frodo, he saw himself in a mirror and did not like what he saw. He understood that the real peril was the Ring and its lies, and turned away from it. He did not reject it with the seeming ease of Faramir (and I say seeming because I think Faramir struggled with this much more than we saw in the story) -- but he did reject it; it was not simply removed from his grasp. The evidence of this is in his dying words: "I have paid." He knew he had done wrong, and did what he could to right his "sin." If Boromir had survived the battle that day, he would have had to answer to his father for letting the Ring out of his grasp when he eventually came to Minas Tirith. And I suspect that on that day, Denethor would have felt disappointed and betrayed by both his sons.

Just my two cents, as always.

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for those two cents worth, Ibrîniðilpathânezel--more than two cents' worth I would say. You've picked some of the very quotes I would have from the text to explain Galadriel's power.

However, I was more interested in what MatthewM was implying in response to the quote he gave from ArathornJax, particularly since he substituted Galadriel for AJ's original question of Sauron's MO.

Originally Posted by MatthewM

What do you think Galadriel did? Her test of mind is what fueled Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Her test awoke that feeling he had when he first saw the One Ring at the Council. Faramir himself confirms that Men seldom walk out of the Golden Wood unchanged-

This was AJ original question:

Originally Posted by AJ

However, I wonder if this is how Sauron tempted some of the Nine in terms of getting them to accept their ring of power? Did he appeal to a personal situation or a political situation and offer a solution? Did the then also appeal to their ego and personal pride with shades of personal glory?

If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine.

Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think?

[MatthewM]

I'm well aware of those quotes, Ibrîniðilpathânezel, but I was making a point. Galadriel did everything that AJ's question asked. She offered Boromir a solution to his want to do good and save his people. We aren't told that flat out, because Boromir does not openly say what Galadriel offered him when she tested all of them with her mind. One can safely assume, however, that is was the command of the Ring, in turn saving Gondor and his people.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

However, I was more interested in what MatthewM was implying in response to the quote he gave from ArathornJax, particularly since he substituted Galadriel for AJ's original question of Sauron's MO.

I wasn't saying it was Galadriel's fault that Boromir fell to the Ring. Yet, I can't help but think what would have happened if The Fellowship hadn't passed through Lorien. Am I implying that Galadriel had a hand in the Breaking of the Fellowship? Yes, sure. For it was only after Lorien that Boromir's lust was really awoken, regardless if he carried it with him since the Council. It was never made apparent until The Great River - after the tempting of Galadriel. I was not speaking through Faramir's view, because it was not just Faramir's view that Men came out of Lorien unchanged. It was Boromir's as well, along with the rest of Gondor.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine.
Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think?

There would be a huge difference, in my opinion, in being tested by a virtuous Elf lady (even if she is suspicious) and being tested by the Dark Lord. No, I do not believe Boromir would have fell to be one of the Nine. That kind of question really is not going to lead anywhere, really...it is so hypothetical and I think what I think, others think what they think.

Again, the discussion is supposed to be about the relationship between Boromir and Faramir, and everyone continues to isolate Boromir.

[ArathornJax]

In speaking of both Faramir and Boromir, this quote by Gandalf at Minis Tirith to Pippin about the Lord Denethor I have found interesting:

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir, whom he loved best."

If Denethor's heritage is from Westernesse (mixed with other houses since coming to Middle Earth) and in him the blood of Westernesse runs true, and it also runs true in Faramir, then what did Tolkien mean that it did not do so in Boromir? Does this account for some of the differences between Faramir and Boromir? How did Faramir's blood run true but how did Boromir not run true? Thoughts would be appreciated as I am thinking on this since I read it last night.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine.

Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think?

I do agree whole-heartedly with Bêthberry. I have little doubt that Boromir would have become one of the Nine, had he lived back in the mid-Second age. He was a great man, seeking power and glory, he needed the Ring to save his country - so he wouldn't have refused the offer. Moreover, please note, that unlike Boromir, the future nazgul had no idea what kind of Rings they were offered and most likely they didn't even know that it was Sauron who was offering them (at least it applies to Numenorean nazgul). The Elves were most secretive about the Rings - they never told the Numenoreans what all this conflict with Sauron was about. Not even Ar-Pharazon heard about the Rings - so we can be pretty sure about those before him.
The future nazgul were men of the ilk of Tar-Aldarion and Isildur and Boromir and Aragorn - that's why Sauron went to such lengths to entice them. And he succeeded.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

In speaking of both Faramir and Boromir, this quote by Gandalf at Minis Tirith to Pippin about the Lord Denethor I have found interesting:

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir, whom he loved best."

If Denethor's heritage is from Westernesse (mixed with other houses since coming to Middle Earth) and in him the blood of Westernesse runs true, and it also runs true in Faramir, then what did Tolkien mean that it did not do so in Boromir? Does this account for some of the differences between Faramir and Boromir? How did Faramir's blood run true but how did Boromir not run true? Thoughts would be appreciated as I am thinking on this since I read it last night.

AJ, all due respect- it's spelt Minas Tirith.

As to your question- it is scientifically/biologically impossible that Boromir would not have the same blood running through his veins as Denethor and Faramir. That quote has given many people questions but the fact must be that Tolkien was talking about the personage of the three characters, not physical blood. Boromir was a true Numenorean in everything but mind. He did not really have the mental qualities that Faramir had. That is what that quote means.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I do agree whole-heartedly with Bêthberry. I have little doubt that Boromir would have become one of the Nine, had he lived back in the mid-Second age. He was a great man, seeking power and glory, he needed the Ring to save his country - so he wouldn't have refused the offer. Moreover, please note, that unlike Boromir, the future nazgul had no idea what kind of Rings they were offered and most likely they didn't even know that it was Sauron who was offering them (at least it applies to Numenorean nazgul). The Elves were most secretive about the Rings - they never told the Numenoreans what all this conflict with Sauron was about. Not even Ar-Pharazon heard about the Rings - so we can be pretty sure about those before him.
The future nazgul were men of the ilk of Tar-Aldarion and Isildur and Boromir and Aragorn - that's why Sauron went to such lengths to entice them. And he succeeded.

Let me just clarify something about what I meant, as I certainly don't wish to cast any spurious charges at Galadriel. From my reading, I would not say that Galadriel was in any way responsible for Boromir's fall. Certainly she tested men by showing them something true about themselves, possibly some sort of desire or feltwish that they were unaware of and which could influence them unseemingly. And so she offers men the chance to become aware of their own weaknesses and proclivities. I think those quotations which Ibrin provides give a very clear sense that Galadriel was not at fault for planting evil ideas in people's minds. The story is full of evidence of Boromir's rashness, pride, vanity, along with his many sterling qualities before he ever meets up with the Lady of Lothlorien.

There is a point, however, where I do agree with Gordis and it is in this: since Boromir failed Galadriel's test and did not take heed of his own pride and vanity, he would also have been a very likely candidate to fall to the wiles of Sauron, who of course never identified himself as Evil Incarnate in his efforts to entrap the Nine. Many can no doubt avoid temptation when it knocks them over the head (if they wish), but not so many can easily recognise the siren call when it is cunningly whispered. I think Fordim ran an RPG about this very topic, which now rests in Elvenhome: Shadow of the West. rpg of course aren't 'canon' but they do explore a topic in interesting ways and I think this game shows particularly how a powerful, well intentioned man could fall to the Dark Emissary.


And I think that Gandalf's words about Faramir and Boromir, which ArathornJax quotes, are meant metaphorically to refer to Faramir's mental state as the true heir. I think it is fairly clear what Gandalf's thoughts are about the two sons.

Although I must here admit that I am more prone to spelling the White City Minus Tirith, as I have this unfortunate reading stuck in mind about a place referred to in this august forum as Minus Teeth.