The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-19-2003, 07:18 AM   #1
Manardariel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 817
Manardariel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril Celeborn the little Sucker

Ok, question. Is it just me, or does anyone else think Celeborn sounds like Galadriel´s boring sidekick?? I mean, in Lórien, who gives a hell about Celeborn? It´s GALADRIEL´s mirror, GALADRIEL´s gifts, the works! And if I recall this correctly, when the Fellowship comes to Lórien, she even feels the need to introduce him, something like "this is my husband, and he is very great"(in case you never heard of him, which you probably haven´t). In Rohan, all they know is the LADY of the woods. I mean, he doesn´t even have a really important role. But the why the hell does he even exist? Why can´t Galadriel just be in Lórien all alone?
__________________
Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)|FanFicDream City
Manardariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 10:52 AM   #2
Frodo Baggins
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
Posts: 606
Frodo Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Because without Celeborn Galadriel wouln't have a daughter.
__________________
"I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."
Frodo Baggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 11:24 AM   #3
Maerbenn
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 59
Maerbenn has just left Hobbiton.
White-Hand

Celeborn isn't a nobody. From 'The Mirror of Galadriel':
Quote:
For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth...
The Professor's last conception of his history was that he was a Telerin prince from Aman.
Maerbenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 11:41 AM   #4
Thingol1000
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 37
Thingol1000 has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Wasn't Celeborn from Thingol's realm? Hence Sindarin (or somesuch). (Telerin prince from Aman in ME??????)
Thingol1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 11:56 AM   #5
Dondagnirion
Wight
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Glittering Caves
Posts: 241
Dondagnirion has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Dondagnirion
1420!

Celeborn was only accounted one of Thingols folk because of relation by marriage. He was in fact a Teleri prince from the undying lands. That is specifically stated in Unfinished Tales.

Dondagnirion
"There is no spoon"
__________________
"It is useless to meet revenge with revenge; it will heal nothing." - Frodo
"Will shall be the sterner, heart the bolder, spirit the greater, as our strength lessens."
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesnt happen all at once." - Albert Einstein
Dondagnirion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 12:15 PM   #6
lathspell
Regenerating Ringkeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Holland
Posts: 757
lathspell has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Dondagnirion: in the UT are stated many things about Galadriel and Celeborn. Also about the origin of Celeborn are at least three theories written there.
And in the Silmarillion is stated that Galadriel met Celeborn there. I always thought the theory of Celeborn being a Telerin prince the least believable. It's most logical that he was either one of Thingol's people or one of Lenwe's people.
__________________
'You?' cried Frodo.
'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'
lathspell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 12:43 PM   #7
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

much Cyber-ink has been spilled over Celeborn and his seeming denseness next to the 'Lady of Light" herself.

I was always suprised that he did not travel over seas without her. I mean come on you have been married for what 6,000 years or so [ imagine trying to find gifts for the 'adamntine' or 'mithril' anniversary].

also a quick search will reveal numerous Celeborn threads, some of which will cover this subject quite thouroughly.

re: the many versions in UT of galadriel and Celeborn's History and the canonicity question you may want to try this thread.

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 02:40 PM   #8
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,850
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Celeborn was only accounted one of Thingols folk because of relation by marriage. He was in fact a Teleri prince from the undying lands. That is specifically stated in Unfinished Tales.
I wouldn't go shaking around UT as the final say in such a matter that was accounted in so many different ways.

Anyway, it is totally just you, and others who know little of Celeborn's actions during the Second and Third Ages outside of his brief interaction with the Fellowship of the Ring when they passed through his lands. He did a good bit of leading/fighting orcs and was a selfless lord. He did his part, and well, I'd say. This thread's title is silly - how could someone be derogative about said character?

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 03:20 PM   #9
Lush
Fair and Cold
 
Lush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the big onion
Posts: 1,803
Lush is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to Lush Send a message via AIM to Lush Send a message via Yahoo to Lush
Sting

Quote:
Why can´t Galadriel just be in Lórien all alone?
Because that would be very boring.
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~
Lush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 03:33 PM   #10
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,752
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Sting

Quote:
Because that would be very boring.
And yet I get the sense that Celeborn (the little Sucker) isn't exactly a party.
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 06:37 PM   #11
Kalimac
Candle of the Marshes
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 780
Kalimac has just left Hobbiton.
1420!

Well, we're not exactly seeing them at their most relaxed. Celeborn could be a real cut-up in daily life - brother under the skin to those goofy Elves from "The Hobbit", but with Orcs trying to trample over your borders and the end of the free world looming over you, it's hard to be entertaining. And Galadriel's abilities - and mirror - probably didn't make such a big difference in their daily (or even millennial) life together. I mean, it's hard to picture the two of them relaxing by the mirror of an evening, hoping something entertaining will come on.
__________________
Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet
Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.
Kalimac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 07:23 PM   #12
Lush
Fair and Cold
 
Lush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the big onion
Posts: 1,803
Lush is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to Lush Send a message via AIM to Lush Send a message via Yahoo to Lush
Quote:
And yet I get the sense that Celeborn (the little Sucker) isn't exactly a party.
I dunno, Underhillo. I'd take a studious, nerdy chap (which is what I assume this little Sucker was) over no chap, or better yet, over a party-hopping chap, anytime. Especially if the other option is being stuck alone for, what is it? Three Ages?

Then again, maybe Galadriel would have been better off shacking up with someone like Glorfindel anyway.
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~
Lush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 08:45 PM   #13
Tar-Palantir
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: napa valley, ca
Posts: 496
Tar-Palantir has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
shacking up
Elves don't 'shack up'. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

Here is a good thread to get you educated about the elvish ettiquette de chambre à coucher.

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
__________________
History shows again and again
How nature points up the folly of men
Go, go, Godzilla!
Tar-Palantir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 08:52 PM   #14
Lush
Fair and Cold
 
Lush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the big onion
Posts: 1,803
Lush is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to Lush Send a message via AIM to Lush Send a message via Yahoo to Lush
(trying hard to think of a clever comeback and failing)

Why do I feel like I have just been smacked across the face with a trout?

Shacking up can mean marriage too. Yes it can. Stop laughing at me! Galadriel should have just not been so hasty in choosing whom to shack up with, that's all. Glorfindel was so much more, uh...And imagine who those two golden-haired lovebirds would have looked together. Oh, cruel fate.
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~
Lush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 09:03 PM   #15
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,072
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
1420!

Ya know, Lush, we could always start a new 'what if' thread....
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 09:06 PM   #16
Lush
Fair and Cold
 
Lush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the big onion
Posts: 1,803
Lush is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to Lush Send a message via AIM to Lush Send a message via Yahoo to Lush
Sting

...And get promptly shut down by our ever-watchful mods.
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~
Lush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 10:07 PM   #17
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,752
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

Quote:
I'd take a studious, nerdy chap (which is what I assume this little Sucker was) over no chap, or better yet, over a party-hopping chap, anytime.
Studious and nerdy? Eh, maybe. I always pictured Celeborn as more the sullen, over-compensating macho type, though, given to fits of impotent rage (sending the servants scurrying with missiles of half-eaten lembas, no doubt), muttering about long years full of grievous deeds, and climbing up on his favorite hobby horse – the folly of the Dwarves. Look at how Galadriel placates him by stroking his vanity with “Celeborn the Wise” – I mean, come on, is this dude transparent or what?

And anyway, what’s up with that four to five hundred year separation in the Second Age (UT)? Were they just “taking a break”? Dark Queen or a boat to the West, I think the Lady was just looking for a way out.
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 10:46 PM   #18
Lobelia
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 150
Lobelia has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

The problem with the film as released in the cinema (therewas more in the DVD version) is that Celeborn was left with one line (which was Galadriel's in the novel anyway). He was the one who gave the Fellowship directions and advice about their journey, once he calmed down and apologised for his rudeness to Gimli. Personally, if I were a guy, I wouldn't want to be married to Galadriel. I mean, every time Celeborn opens his mouth, she knocks him down. She then heads for the Undying Lands alone, without so much as a backward glance. I can imagine her constantly reminding the poor sod that she had turned down Feanor... "I sometimes wonder why, Celeborn, really I do..."
Lobelia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 11:24 PM   #19
Diamond18
Eidolon of a Took
 
Diamond18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: my own private fantasy world
Posts: 3,561
Diamond18 is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Silmaril

I'm sorry to start mixing threads, but it was so tempting...after reading these speculations on Celeborn's temperament, I thought of the Names thread, and this is what it said for Celeborn:

Quote:
Your first name of Celeborn makes you a quick thinker, both philosophical and creative. You appreciate music, art, and drama and, if given training, could excel in those fields. Self-consciousness may prevent you from feeling at ease in positions of impromptu expression. Desiring to be free from detail and monotony, you find it difficult to finish what you start if it does not hold your interest. You enjoy reading and the beauties of nature, experiencing peace and relaxation in outdoor activities. A very individual, independent person, you live within your own thoughts. With acquaintances and strangers, you tend to be reticent and reserved. Your friends never know whether they will find you friendly and charming or lost in introspection. When unhappy or disappointed, you can be moody and temperamental, feeling misunderstood and unappreciated. You will go out of your way to help others, and find it difficult to say "no" and mean it. Others impose on your generosity at times. You enjoy sweets and starchy foods. Over-indulgence could cause a weak back, skin conditions or arthritis later in life. The heart and lungs could also be affected at stressful times.
Just in case, I want to make it clear that I'm laughing right now. This description coupled with Mr. Underhill's above post paints a rather funny picture of Lord Celeborn.

I also imagine he's that kind of person who goes around constantly correcting people who mispronounce his name.
__________________
All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.
Diamond18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2003, 07:11 AM   #20
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,992
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

Has no-one thought of congratulating Celeborn for marrying such a babe? Kudos to you Lord!
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2003, 08:10 AM   #21
Inderjit Sanghera
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 716
Inderjit Sanghera has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

One thing I've never understood is why Galadriel chose Celeborn over Celebrimbor.....

Celeborn is wise on his own ground, such as his giving the boats to Aragorn.
__________________
“If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube.

"Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone
Inderjit Sanghera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2003, 09:36 AM   #22
Manardariel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 817
Manardariel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

You know I always pictured Celeborn as an elven "Percy" from Harry Potter. (am I being bad? Soooo sorry) You know, the kind of person who always sweats the small stuff, who´s very dry and has a low sense of humor. Just my idea though. I have wierd ideas though, so don´t take me seriously...

I also don´t get why she didn´t go for Celebrimbor. Maybe because she hated Feanor so much she didn´t want to end up with one of his grandsons. I thought their story was very touching though, if you think about it.
__________________
Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)|FanFicDream City
Manardariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2003, 09:54 AM   #23
Thingol1000
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 37
Thingol1000 has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

"One thing I've never understood is why Galadriel chose Celeborn over Celebrimbor...."

Wouldn't that be a bit insestuous?
Thingol1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2003, 12:14 PM   #24
Inderjit Sanghera
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 716
Inderjit Sanghera has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Not as incestous as her choosing Celebron over Celebrimbor.

Her father was Feanor's half-brother, and Celebrimbor was Feanor's grand-son. That wasn't a first cousin relationship.

Whereas Celeborn, in on version , was the grand-son of Olwe, and Galdriel was the grand-daughter of Olwe, thus making them first cousins.

Also, if you take the Celeborn is a grand-son of Elmo, brother of Olwe, that would too be incestous, on about the same level as Celebrimbor and Galadriel.

Quote:
I thought their story was very touching though, if you think about it.
posted by Manardariel
I agree, I think it wold make a good Fanfic.

[ February 20, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]
__________________
“If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube.

"Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone
Inderjit Sanghera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2003, 01:15 PM   #25
Thingol1000
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 37
Thingol1000 has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

"Whereas Celeborn, in on version , was the grand-son of Olwe, and Galdriel was the grand-daughter of Olwe, thus making them first cousins."

Earlier in this thread it was stated that Celeborn was a prince among the teleri. Is that true?
Thingol1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2003, 06:27 PM   #26
Rumil
Sage & Onions
 
Rumil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
Rumil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Galadriel and Celeborn-

I think he charmed her into bed with his dry sense of humour-

'do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that were once needful for the wise to know'

now who was Celeorn's old wife? (at least 7000 years old)
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion
Rumil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2003, 04:38 PM   #27
greyhavener
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: austin
Posts: 169
greyhavener has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Celeborn has enough personal confidence to be Mrs. Galadriel-Lady-of-the-Wood. He's had his ages of influence and now, like an enlightened third age elf he's willing to let Galadriel have the fame. He has her ear. He'll pitch in with wisdom and encouragement when needed. Power, influence, and leadership are not always overt. He's welcome in my treehouse.
__________________
Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
greyhavener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2003, 01:12 AM   #28
morchaint
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

Tolkien didn't intend for Celeborn to be that, well, dull. In his beginning drafts, he actually gave Celeborn the majority of the speaking parts. But, as Tolkien developed Galadriel's character more, he kind of shortened Celeborn's parts. You can actually see that in FotR, Celeborn has many more lines in the beginning than in the end of their meeting with the Fellowship. It also says from the same source, that Tolkien intended the mirror to be Celeborn's, and that he gave it to Galadriel.

He was a prince either way (Silm or UT), and he remained related to Thingol either way. And between Galadriel-Celeborn and Galadriel-Celebrimbor, there is no major difference, Galadriel is the second cousin to both Celeborn and Celebrimbor.

In UT, it mentions that FotR seems to be implying that Celeborn and Galadriel came from the west together. In this version, Galadriel is innocent of the Kinslaying at Aqualondë.

And, if you think about it, Galadriel and Celeborn complement each other. Galadriel caring more of the, well, I'll just say 'mental state' of the Galadhrim, and Celeborn caring of the 'well-being' of the Galdhrim. So, they foil (complement) each other, making the perfect rulers.

Well, I'm not sure if Celeborn is all that boring...I mean, why would Galadriel, Nerwen (man-maiden), Artanis (noble-lady/maiden), a fiery spirit, fall for someone dull? Besides..Celeborn gave her the name Galadriel.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:23 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.