How was Gondor founded?

[eothain of fenland]

I know that during the Numenorean era, there were many settlements all throughout Middle Earth, and that some were in Gondor. Once Sauron was captured and brought to Numenor, he corrupted them, and their home sank and almost everyone died yadda yadda yadda. Elendil and his son Isildur (?) have foreseen this, and they were prepared to leave.

My question: did the natives of Gondor (probably of the same stock as the Dunlendings) fight the more advanced Numenoreans upon arrival? Did the followers of Elendil just settle in the old Numenorean settlements? If so, then was there war between the first Numenorean settlers of Gondor and the natives?

Since the Gondorians are considered 'the good guys', Tolkien, of course, isn't going to portray them as conquering the lands of the less-educated natives. But, how else could they have settled there? I doubt they would just welcome in these foreigners.

[Galadriel55]

I think that Numenor had extensive "colonies" in ME, the region of Gondor being one of them. So it clearly belonged to the Numenorians upon their arrival.

[eothain of fenland]

I realize that there were many pre-existing colonies in Gondor (and all throughout ME) at the time, but the first settlers (of those old colonies) must have had to take those lands from someone else. Tolkien mentions some people of Gondor having swarthier skin and being shorter, so I imagine the original inhabitants of Gondor being short and swarthy being taken over by tall, pale dark-haired Dunedain. Tolkien, however (as far as I know) doesnt't mention any strife between these two peoples.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by eothain of fenland

Tolkien, however (as far as I know) doesnt't mention any strife between these two peoples.

As far as I know, there wasn't much strife. When Isildur&co first came, there weren't too many Numenorian pioneers - only five ships arrived at Anduin, if I remember correctly (the other four being with Elendil at the gulf of Lhun). As big as Numenorian vessels can be, I doubt that there were enough people to really pose a threat of taking over too much land. Gondor is large, there's room for everybody... until those Dunedain start multiplying and annexing more and more land...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by eothain of fenland

Since the Gondorians are considered 'the good guys', Tolkien, of course, isn't going to portray them as conquering the lands of the less-educated natives. But, how else could they have settled there? I doubt they would just welcome in these foreigners.

On the contrary, actually. Tolkien gives us several indications that the natives didn't take to the Númenóreans settling in their parts very happily, and the indications are that, after the initial "more gentlemanly" early Númenórean excursions, the explorers from Westernesse brought cold steel to their affairs in Middle-earth. Perhaps the best indications of this friction are to be found in Unfinished Tales, particularly the notes regarding the Númenórean settlements at the mouth of the Gwathló and the deforestation of Minihiriath, but pretty much every text about Númenóreans in the Second Age is rather critical of their exploratory endeavours.

Another hugely important text is the aborted story (whose name, alas, eludes me...) in Volume XII of the HoME: The Peoples of Middle-earth, which deals with the Númenórean explorations from a native point of view (and the black sails of Númenor were not an encouraging sight--though there was some misunderstanding on the natives' part regarding the difference in factions amongst the Númenóreans).

Even in The Lord of the Rings, however, there are suggestions that the Númenóreans and the natives didn't always get along. In particular, I'm thinking of the Dead Men of Dunharrow, who were kin to the pre-Númenórean inhabitants of Gondor and the Dunlendings, and who did not quite see eye-to-eye with Isildur. Admittedly, our sympathy is on Isildur's side here, rather than Sauron's, but one can imagine that the oath made to assist Gondor was initially made by the Dead Men-to-be out of fear for the renewed power of the Númenóreans.

All that being said, though, I don't think Elendil's nine ships (only five of which reached Gondor anyway--the rest sailed to Lindon and became part of Arnor) made a huge impact on the situation. By the time of the deluge, many Númenóreans had already moved to Middle-earth, especially in the areas that later became Gondor and Arnor, because the Faithful had been fleeing the King's Men for centuries. Elendil's ships were merely the last load and the catalysts for transforming the colonies into kingdoms. Although there was probably some more movement towards the foothills of the White Mountains, the Númenóreans had been in Pelargir and Tharbad for centuries and had probably already won most of Gondor's land.

Or so I would guess, anyway. For one thing, Isildur and Anárion's century-reign before the War of the Last Alliance does not seem to have been one of fighting to establish Gondor so much as one of building up Gondor (starting the major landmarks that would come to be associated with the Númenóreans, such as the royal cities, the palantíri towers, and places like the Stone of Erech and the Argonath). I don't think such a program of nation-building would have occurred if the Númenóreans were still seriously in the process of acquiring the land they were building on--although the defensive parts of the building program probably do reflect the fact that the initial inhabitants, if pacified, weren't considered assimilated or anything other than potential enemies.

[Galadriel55]

Even in The Lord of the Rings, however, there are suggestions that the Númenóreans and the natives didn't always get along. In particular, I'm thinking of the Dead Men of Dunharrow, who were kin to the pre-Númenórean inhabitants of Gondor and the Dunlendings, and who did not quite see eye-to-eye with Isildur.

Good point. The first thing that I thought of is the Druedain. They seem to remember some old grudges against the "pale faced men" (I'm not sure if they differentiate between Gondorians and Rohirrim), yet they decide that they should forget about them in light of the situation.

[Findegil]

The abondoned story Formendacil is revering to is named "Tal-Elmar" after the name of the mean charachter. In reconsidering the story later, Tolkien sought that he would have to adapt the geography to fit the coast of Gondor some where around later Pelagir.

Since the story breaks of just after the first contact is made, we do not see much of the real Númenorean behavior against the neativs, but we hear very bad storys about them from Tal-Elmars father and the capitain of the ship does says to Tal-Elmar that his people will have to leave since the area will be occupied by a Númenorean settelment.

On the other hand the poeple of Tal-Elmar are clearly under Saurons sway and they are enemys of the Northmann of Rhovanion and the Drûg of White Mountains and the Númenoreans seem to know that (or assumed it as they did wrongfuly with the Dunlandings).

However, the People of Gondor were by the mayorty not of Númenorean stock (look at the trups coming to Minas Tirith in the LotR). It seems that only at the old cities of Pelagir, Umbar and Dol Amroth were greater Númenorean settelments before the arival of Isildur and Anarion. The brother settelt with their people in Ithilien and Anórien, which were as it seems mostly unpopulated before.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Elmo]

I think Tolkien is saying colonialism is good as long as the people doing the colonising are 'just' about it, which would fit in with the attitudes of the time. I mean nothing bad is ever said about Gondor's continued expansion into the lands of Rhun and Harad throughout the 3rd age.

Surely this land theft though would make the people whose land it was hate Gondor even more? It would create ample ground for Sauron to work with in making these people 'evil'.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I mean nothing bad is ever said about Gondor's continued expansion into the lands of Rhun and Harad throughout the 3rd age.

You mean, after the fall of Sauron? Before that, Gondor's territory had been shrinking, not increasing.

When Elessar made peace with the Easterlings and Southrons at the end of the Third Age, I think the implication is that without Sauron's influence, those peoples would be let alone under their own laws, as long as they didn't try to war against Gondor.

Originally Posted by Elmo

Surely this land theft though would make the people whose land it was hate Gondor even more? It would create ample ground for Sauron to work with in making these people 'evil'.

At the time of the founding of the Kingdoms In Exile, most of the Men of Middle-earth were under Sauron's sway already, and had been disposed toward evil since the days of Morgoth. The Edain were the "good" ones who went west to escape his influence.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Pelagir was the chief haven of the Faithful before the fall of Numenor. It seems that during the Second Age the Numenorean settlements in what was to become Gondor were more peaceful, with less conflict with the original inhabitants, than was the case further north in Eriador.

For example, Minas Tirith, Osgiliath and Minas Ithil must have been at least in some form of development before the fall of Numenor - otherwise it seems doubtful whether the Faithful would have had time to build them after the Downfall and before Sauron returned to Middle-Earth.

[Puddleglum]

Don't forget they had over a hundred years before Sauron attacked. Doesn't mean those cities didn't exist in some form - but they still had a lot of time to establish their realm and build/expand/reinforce/etc various towns, cities and fortresses. 100+ years is a long time.