Who are the best trackers, rangers v elfs

Rangers spend their life tracking and exploring unfathomable distances. But elfs have keener sences.null

[Tar Elenion]

Is the Elf a ranger or huntsman as well? Or is he perhaps just a sailor who spends most of his time on a boat, or maybe a smith who seldom leaves his forge?

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Aragorn is the "greatest tracker who ever lived." Although perhaps as a whole Wood Elves are better trackers than Rangers, Aragorn of the Rangers at least is greater than all of them.

[tinewelt]

Lets not forget about gollum. he is a great tracker!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (you guys do not have to respond to that!! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] )

~Namarie~

[Meneltarmacil]

Lets not forget about gollum. he is a great tracker!!(you guys do not have to respond to that!!)

We respondsss when we wantss to, precious *gollum*. Yesss, we makesss *gollum* excellent trackersesss, precious, but only when it comesss to nice, juicy, fishesssss *gollum*, or nassty, dirty, trickssy hobbitsesss *gollum* who've stolen my precioussssss!

[ August 05, 2003: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

*stuffs Meneltarmacil back into his gorilla-cage*

I think it is unfair to say that Wood-Elves were better trackers than the Rangers. Aragorn, as we have heard, was an incredibly good tracker; he was a Ranger. The other Rangers were probably on a similar par to this, although perhaps not quite as great.

Actually, we should remember that the Silvani did operate in different terrain (i.e. forest rather than plain). Aragorn, thanks to his wide travelling, was certainly also adept at wood-tracking. His Rangers of Eriador -- while probably quite good at tracking in forest, as they did exist in Eriador (although not to the denseness of Mirkwood) -- would, I think, have been prevailed over by a Wood-Elf in an actual wood. (Excuse the articulation in this phrase.) In Eriador, a Ranger would probably be the master. It depends on the country.

I think we should suffice it to say that they were both good trackers, particularly in their respective lands. Can't really discriminate.

To say that 'Elves' in general were better trackers, though, is unlikely. Than Rangers? No, I severely doubt it. The Elves were not wholly a 'master-race'. If they had lived out in the earth, known it like the Rangers did, perhaps they would have been as good; however omnilly there is no reason why they should have been.

Lastly, there are the different ways in which a Man or an Elf will see the earth. I believe these would be a factor when it came to reading it. An Elf constantly admires the Earth, while a human can more easily read it objectively. Perhaps this would have created a divider in tracking between the races.

[Kaiserin]

Would it be safe to say that elves, because of their naturally sharper senses, are excellent at tracking because it is sort of an inborn skill (if there is such a thing). They happen to perceive a good grasp of their environment by "happening to notice things more closely". Rangers, on the other hand learnedthe skill by experience and, well, training I guess.
Hats off to the rangers then!

[Kaiserin]

...Er, I don't mean to say that the rangers are better trackers; I simply mean that learning that particular skill is extremely difficult.

Just a thought: The question of "whether rangers are better trackers than elves" (or vice-versa) seems like a faulty question. It would mean generalizing "elves" to mean all elves.

[Silver Dragon]

The "Rangers of Ithilien"?? *cough, cough*

[Sharkû]

Huh?

[Maeglanthirion]

Well, firstly, are rangers limited to the human race? Why can't an elf just decide to leave and become a ranger? I mean, Elrond's sons were pretty ambitious. They were sent out to find people for the Council of Elrond, so they have to be somewhat of rangers. You don't hear much of them hanging around Rivendell or anything. Anyway, with that out of the way, I would personally guess rangers would. I suppose elves really have to potential to be better, but unless they choose to physically explore and track (ie. become a ranger), rangers would have to be better since they spend all their time hunting and exploring.

[Finwe]

I would think that the reason Aragorn was considered the greatest tracker ever was that he was trained by the Elves in Rivendell, and went out "upon errantry" often with Elladan and Elrohir. Those two came across to me as excellent huntsmen and trackers, especially after Orcs (although how hard can it be to follow a trail of death and destruction), so naturally Aragorn would also be an excellent tracker.

[Maeglanthirion]

Yes, I agree about orcs. Remember when the hunters set out to chase down the Uruk-hai after they took Merry and Pippin on Amon Hen, they said the Uruk-hai seemed to go out of their way to chop off a limb. So it appears they run free chopping up things as they go for fun. Can't be that hard to follow.

[Tar Elenion]

Would someone be able to provide a citation for the quote that was presented above and seems to be being taken as a quote from JRRT?
The quote was Aragorn was "greatest tracker who ever lived". 'Lord of Angmar' provided the quote, but did not cite where it can be read.

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

At the council of Elrond Gandalf tells of the capture of gollum by the wood elves and Aragorn, when he refers to the wood elves he says that tracking gollum was quite simple for them but he maid it sound as if Aragorn had tracked him for endless months (aragorn may have had to track him further) but if i had to say which was better i would say they are pretty much on the same page.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Sorry Elenion, I am also unable to find that quote. However it goes, though, Aragorn was an excellent tracker -- the reason he may have been considered thus is that he was.

Squire, the Wood-Elves were tracking a large Orc-band through a forest. Judging by -- as Finwe points out -- the huge trail that the Orcs left in Rohan behind them, this would probably not have been that hard. Aragorn was after a cunning, small and elusive hobbit.

[Finwe]

I remember Gandalf saying it in the Fellowship of the Ring, I believe. I don't remember exactly where, but when he was mentioning Gollum's escape to Frodo, in Bag End, he told him that he had the help of one of his old friends, Aragorn, "the greatest tracker and huntsman in this age of the world" or something like that.

Elves had supreme senses and they could run easily over snow.

[Tar Elenion]

"And my search would have been in vain, but for the help that I had from a friend: Aragorn, the greatest traveller and huntsman of this age of the world. Together we sought for Gollum down the whole length of Wilderland, without hope, and without success."
Shadow of the Past

This is the quote that I think is being referred to (inaccurately, unless a citation can be referred to showing the other quote to be from JRRT).

Greatest traveller, not tracker, and not of all time but only of this particular period of time.

I would put forward Beleg as superior to Aragorn in such skills.

[ August 06, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Numenorean]

Tar Elenion:

Greatest traveller, not tracker

But the quote then goes on to say: 'and huntsman' A huntsman has to track in order to hunt, and Aragorn was, as Gandalf states, one of the 'greatest'.
Something else you said Tar:

I would put forward Beleg as superior to Aragorn in such skills

Do you therefore infer that Menfolk/Rangers could never be as skilled as Beleg because he was an Elf?
In the Narn Beleg taught Turin woodcraft, tracking and evasion, and due to both Belegs skill as teacher and Turins as a pupil I feel he was on a par with the Strongbow, if not actually able to surpass him in certain areas of outdoor survival. Isn't this kindof reflected by the fact that it took Beleg so very long to hunt Turin down, despite the fact that Turin was moving at pace with a large band of manfolk outlaws through woodland and other tracker friendly environments?

[Tar Elenion]

But the quote then goes on to say: 'and huntsman' A huntsman has to track in order to hunt, and Aragorn was, as Gandalf states, one of the 'greatest'.

And? I was correcting the quote. It does not say that Aragorn was "the greatest tracker who ever lived" (or even the greatest traveller and huntsman who ever lived).

Do you therefore infer that Menfolk/Rangers could never be as skilled as Beleg because he was an Elf?

No, I just 'infer' that Beleg was superior to Aragorn.

In the Narn Beleg taught Turin woodcraft, tracking and evasion, and due to both Belegs skill as teacher and Turins as a pupil I feel he was on a par with the Strongbow, if not actually able to surpass him in certain areas of outdoor survival. Isn't this kindof reflected by the fact that it took Beleg so very long to hunt Turin down, despite the fact that Turin was moving at pace with a large band of manfolk outlaws through woodland and other tracker friendly environments?

Do you imply that the outlaws were perhaps unskilled at evasion and hiding their tracks?
Of course when Beleg set out to find Turin, he was only looking for one man, with no knoweldge that he had joined a group of outlaws, and was following a cold trail. Once he learned that Turin was was with the outlaw band Beleg was able to find them despite Turin's (and the outlaw's) skill.

"With little hope Beleg departed from Amon Rûdh and set out northward, towards the Crossings of Teiglin, following in the track of the Orcs; and he crossed over the Brithiach and journeyed through Dimbar towards the Pass of Anach. And now he was not far behind them, for he went without sleeping, whereas they had tarried on their road, hunting in the lands and fearing no pursuit as they came northward; and not even in the dreadful woods of Taur-nu-Fuin did he swerve from the trail, for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth."
The Silmarillion

[ August 08, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Perhaps Beleg was, but this does not by any means imply that Elves were as a whole better than Men at such things -- and certainly a Ranger would far surpass an average Elf of Rivendell, Lindon, Lorien or Mirkwood (although considerable skills in woodcraft were to be found in the latter of these places).

Actually, the way I see it, a good tracker is a good tracker. As Legolas -- an Elf, a Wood-Elf himself -- says, Aragorn could read a 'bent grass-blade'. I doubt that Beleg could have perceived more from such signs than the experience and prowess of Aragorn did.

[Numenorean]

Tar Elenion :

And? I was correcting the quote. It does not say that Aragorn was "the greatest tracker who ever lived" (or even the greatest traveller and huntsman who ever lived).

Sorry if I misunderstood you Tar, but this is a discussion, and as such I assumed that you were laying down the actual quote and dwelling on the semantics in order diminish Aragorns reputation as being one of the greatest trackers that ever lived (in the books). Hunting, tracking and traveling are all crucially interwoven elements of woodcraft per se, so going on Gandalfs quote, he for one is in no doubt of Aragorns skill and hard earned reputation in this field.

Do you imply that the outlaws were perhaps unskilled at evasion and hiding their tracks?

No, but they learned and massively improved upon such matters under Turins guidance, Beleg himself says of him on P.91 of UT:
“Too well did I teach this child of Men craft in wood and field! An Elvish band almost one might think this to be”
One other thing you stated Tar:

Once he learned that Turin was with the outlaw band Beleg was able to find them despite Turin's (and the outlaw's) skill.

Beleg only caught up due to the fact that Orcs came south and Turin was coerced by circumstance and his men to spy on them instead of moving on like he wanted, all too “aware that they were being trailed by some tireless pursuer”. When Turin ended up being separated (due to the Orcs) from his now stationary band for over 3 days, this alone gave Beleg the chance to find them as prior to that:
“he came often near, but always their lair was deserted when he came to it…at any rumour of approach they were swiftly up and away” UT.
Now I’m not bad-vibing Beleg at all Tar, on the contrary he is (along with Finrod) my favourite Elf in the HoME, I’m just pointing out that despite the fact that Elves have superior natural senses to Men, the fundamentals of tracking and woodcraft can be learned and utilized to an Elvish level of mastery by Menfolk too, specifically Rangers. I agree with Gwaihir in his summary:

a good tracker is a good tracker

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Quite right, Numenorean [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

[Halbarad]

"Well, firstly, are rangers limited to the human race? Why can't an elf just decide to leave and become a ranger?"

Aren't rangers in this conversation defined as Dunedain? I hope you aren't confusing Baldurs Gate with LotR Maeglanthirion? Perhaps somone else could clarify this.

[Tar Elenion]

Gwaihir the Windlord wrote:

Perhaps Beleg was, but this does not by any means imply that Elves were as a whole better than Men at such things -- and certainly a Ranger would far surpass an average Elf of Rivendell, Lindon, Lorien or Mirkwood (although considerable skills in woodcraft were to be found in the latter of these places).

Numenorean wrote:

Now I’m not bad-vibing Beleg at all Tar, on the contrary he is (along with Finrod) my favourite Elf in the HoME, I’m just pointing out that despite the fact that Elves have superior natural senses to Men, the fundamentals of tracking and woodcraft can be learned and utilized to an Elvish level of mastery by Menfolk too, specifically Rangers.

Quite, as I asked in my first post:
"Is the Elf a ranger or huntsman as well? Or is he perhaps just a sailor who spends most of his time on a boat, or maybe a smith who seldom leaves his forge?"

[ August 08, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Finwe]

Well, in Elven terms, I think Elladan and Elrohir would count as a sort of Rangers. In general, I think Elves are better trackers, but Elf-trained Dunedain, like Aragorn, could offer some pretty stiff competition.

[rutslegolas]

i think elves can be better trackers than rangers of course a ranger like aragorn could easily beat an elf but usually elves could beat a common ranger of common lineage

i say this because elves have greater eyesight,they sense the fellings of birds and trees and they also i think can sense danger.

[drigel]

Of course I always thought of it as elves having the shaper senses. But its like my cat - having the sensory input at maximum is something different from being able to correctly interpret the signals. Hence - spooky goofy cat lol. But the analogy is the same. Hearing what trees have to say is good but using all that information to one's own purpose is what I would call "Ranger" level tracking. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I guess it would depend; certainly the Dunedain were masterful rangers, trained in the wild north, alongside the elves of Rivendell, and hardly ever took a break from business, so they were certainly pretty talented. Aragorn, was clearly a more talented tracker than say, Legolas. But Legolas was not an 'elvish tracker', he was an elvish prince and a warrior and archer. But certainly among the elves, there were some experienced trackers who would because of their elven gifts of keener vision and hearing, and even scent could outmatch Aragorn and if Aragorn, all the rangers, because Strider was their best. I'd guess it likely that some of the elves of Lorien could 'out-track' Aragorn. Quite possibly some of the elves of Mirkwood could also.

[the phantom]

Rangers or Elves? I think the "Elves" category is a bit too large. There's all sorts of Elves. Just being an Elf didn't make one a great tracker because different Elves excelled at different things. I think it's likely that some Elves were good trackers and other Elves were not.

As far as individual trackers go Beleg seems to be comfortably in first place with this quote-

for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth

And I also believe that Aragorn should be quite high up on the list considering-

And my search would have been in vain, but for the help that I had from a friend: Aragorn, the greatest traveller and huntsman of this age of the world.

Though the word "tracker" was not used, the context of this quote specifically involves the tracking of Gollum. After all it calls it a "search" which would certainly imply tracking. Not to mention that "huntsman" would overlap much with tracking. In fact, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are tracking the orcs from Rauros they are referred to at least once as "hunters".

I think that Aragorn possibly is the greatest tracker living in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring (and I also think that Tolkien might've intended that quote to mean that he was). Elves having sharper senses doesn't automatically make them superior trackers.

For example, Turin obviously showed that men were capable of evening up the playing field with Elves. Even with a big mob of men following him around who were less in skill than he was, he still managed to elude the greatest tracker in history (Beleg) for quite some time.

Rangers vs Elves? Rangers, I imagine. After all, tracking was their life, where as many Elves probably never had to track.

Rangers vs Elvish trackers? Tough one. I believe the origin of the Elf would have to be taken into consideration. Rivendell likely had trackers to rival the Rangers (I'm fairly confident that the sons of Elrond could), Lorien might have as well, and who knows about the Mirkwood Elves. But certainly there would be individual differences.

And when it comes to individual Rangers versus individual Elves (during the time that the Rangers existed) I'd have to go with Aragorn unless someone can persuade me otherwise.

(when considering all the ages of Middle Earth however I'd definitely pick Beleg)

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:28 PM February 03, 2004: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Numenorean]

Phantom -

(when considering all the ages of Middle Earth however I'd definitely pick Beleg)

I would be more likely to agree with you Phantom if there was a more objective source for the much used quote:

"for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth."

This comes from the Silmarillion, and as we all know that that was predominantly written from Elvish sources. The Narn I Hin Húrin however is accredited to a mannish poet named Dỉrhavel who lived at the Havens of Sirion in the days of Eärendil, and on p.73 of UT, he says of Beleg:

...he was the greatest woodsman of those days.

This is still a great compliment to Beleg and his woodcraft, its just not as sweepingly conclusive as the first Elvish sourced statement found in the Silmarillion.
Rangers vs Elves, Aragorn vs Beleg, they were probably as great as each other and equally matched to a point.

Gwaihir made an interesting claim earlier on this thread-

there are the different ways in which a Man or an Elf will see the earth. I believe these would be a factor when it came to reading it. An Elf constantly admires the Earth, while a human can more easily read it objectively

That ability to be dispassionate about natural habitats coupled with learning tracking the hard way (without a reliance on enhanced senses) leads me to believe that maybe the Rangers just edge it over the Elves, especially throughout the 3rd Age, though perhaps only Aragorn ever actually equalled or surpassed Beleg Cúthalion.

[Firefoot]

My vote would have to go to the Rangers. Elves had sharper senses, yes, but Rangers have been trained to do such things as track. They have developed their senses in that area. I think that Gwaihir's point is definitely important too. Even if an Elf could observe the Earth better than a Ranger, I think that the Ranger would be able to better read it. And reading the Earth is basically what tracking is. I would say that Beleg was a better tracker than Aragorn on the basis of the Phantom's quote. Aragorn is a close second though.

[Phervasaion]

Its difficult to say who are the best trackers, Rangers are always in practice of the skill whereas the Elves do have the better scences. Overall id have to say that Rangers were the better trackers but not by far as I think the Elves come very close.

An Elf constantly admires the Earth, while a human can more easily read it objectively. Perhaps this would have created a divider in tracking between the races.

Yes, I agree with that and thats what, in a way makes me think Rangers are slightly better than Elves.