Palantiri History Problems

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 211</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
You might have discussed some or all these matters elsewhere. If thats the case I appologize, but I haven't been able to find anything here or in the books that explains my questions - but Im sure that some in this forum can give me answers <img src=smile.gif ALT="">
Some statements:
It is stated in UT/SILM/LOTR that the Palantiri was made in Aman by Fëanor.
It is stated in SILM that the Palantiri was a gift from the Eldar to Amandil, Elendils father.
It is stated in SILM that the Palantiri was brought to Middle Earth on Elendils ship.
We know of at least 8 stones (the seven + the master stone in Avalone.) there were very possibly more.

Some Questions:
Were the Palantiri Gifts from the Eldar of Tol Eressa or the Eldar of ME?
I assume the latter, since its Stated in SILM that the Elven ships had ceased to come to Numenor at Amandils time (Aprox. SA 3300).
If we assume that the Palantiri was a gift from Gil-Galad - then how did they come to ME? Did Fëanor bring them? If Feanor brought them how did that master stone end up in Avalone? Were the stones in use in ME during the first and second age?

If we assume that the stones came to Amandil from Tol Eressa - then how did the stones come to Tol Eressa in the first place? Brought back from ME by the Exiled Noldor after the end of the first age? or - from Aman to the Noldor on Tol Eressa in the start of the Second Age?

Can anybody clarify???

Ohh yeah - the really sick question is: Why wasn't the palantiri stolen at the sack of Formenos???

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar


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[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 870</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Palantiri History Problems

This is speculation. Accepting the story that Feanor created the Palantiri, he may have given them to the Valar or other elves, likely the latter perhaps to simplify communications, while he yet lived in Valinor. Thus they were not in Formenos and stayed in Valinor during the rebellion of the Noldor, allowing them to be later brought to Numenor. I would find it tough to believe that the Palantiri were brought by the Noldor to Beleriand. If they had been used to monitor the activities of Morgoth and his armies too many events could have easily been averted. Also, had they remained in the possession of the house of Feanor, they would, as you note, likely have been taken during the attack on Formenos.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 212</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Palantiri History Problems

1. I think we must accept that Fëanor created the Palantiri, since it's surgested in LOTR and directly said so in SILM and UT.

2. I can accept that the Palantiri stayed in Valinor after the rebellion of the Noldor.
But it is stated (In SILM) that at the time of Ar-Gimilzors rule (according to UT SA 3102-3177) The ships from Tol Eressa ceased and NEVER came again to Numenor. Lets Assume this happend in say 3170 - This is 149 years before Amandil died - we do not know how old he was. Although he was proberly born before 3170 I very much doubt that he was The leader of the Faithfull Numenoreans at that time, proberly his father or maybe even grandfather would hold the title of Lord of Andúnië. Then why would the Eldar of Eressa give him the Palantiri?

Can you explain this Mithadan???


Cheers <img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar

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[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 872</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Palantiri History Problems

Like my last post, anything I could say in response would be speculation. If we were to assume that Amandil was 200 when he attempted to reach Aman, he would have been about 50 at the time you propose (for which there is also no support; the elves could have stopped their trips to Numenor even earlier). So to engage in rank (really rank) speculation: (1)Elves, having some foresight of things to come gifted the Palantiri to him; (2) The &quot;leadership&quot; of the faithful was a hereditary title which passed to him early as Lord of Andunie.

To the foregoing we may add that Amandil may have been older than 200. UT comments that for the Numenoreans even at that time, 200 was a young age to die. If we assume Amandil was 225 or even 250 when he attempted to reach the West, it becomes more reasonable for the Elves to give him the Palantiri.

All speculation aside, the Sil. clearly states the Palantiri were gifted to Amandil so there must be some explanation.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 222</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Palantiri History Problems

I searched some more: UT, The line of Elros, Entry: Tar-Palantir. States that at the time of Tar Palantirs rule (SA 3177-3255) Numendil, Grandson of Eärendur was Lord of Andúnië.

I firmly belive we have problems <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Cheers <img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar

Bye the way I found this in a early Quiz tread answered by Grond on November 14 2000 (he was credited for a correct awnser) - and wondred where that information came from?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The palantiri where made by the Master of the Stones, who lived in Tol Eressea.<hr></blockquote>



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000018>Telchar</A> at: 5/18/01 4:06:10 am

[Voronwe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 228</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Palantiri History Problems

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> These stones were gifts of the Eldar to Amandil, father of Elendil, for the comfort of the Faithful of Númenor in their dark days, when the Elves might come no longer to that land under the shadow of Sauron.<hr></blockquote>

This passage appears to be pretty ambiguous. I suppose it could indicate that the stones were given to Amandil by the Eldar of Middle Earth (most probably Gil-galad) because the Eldar of Eressea could no longer visit Numenor. But this passage contradicts information given in other places as well. It wasn't the 'shadow of Sauron' that caused the Elder to cease their jouneys to Numenor. They stopped because of the actions of Ar-Gimilzor, and they didn't even return under the reign of Tar-Palantir.

Things would be so much easier if Amandil wasn't given the stones.

But assuming he was, and assuming he was given them by the Eldar of Middle Earth, there's the problem of how the stones actually got to Middle Earth in the first place. The only solution I can think of to this problem, unlikely as it may seem, is that the stones were brought to Middle Earth by the host of the Valar and given to the remaining Eldar before they left.

But I agree, there are some serious problems concerning this matter.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death
He sped from Westerland.</p>

[Arvedui]

I am sure there can never be found a given year for which the Palantiri were given as gifts, but even if Amandil was quite young, the elves could have foresaw the time when they would come no more, and bestowed the gifts in his name while quite young, or even as a birth present to the parents in his name. Just my speculation. As to how they got to Moddle Earth, they were carried on the ships of the Faithful when Numenor invaded Valinor

[Findegil]

When we are forced to accept the stones were given to Amandil by the Eldar of Middle-Earth, then I would think they were brought to Middle-Earth by Glorfindel or Alatar and Pallando. That can ofcourse only be when they both came in the middle of second age as is suggested in "The History of Middle-Earth" volume 12.

As an example for such an gift from valinor might be taken the Elessar which was given to Galadriel by Gandalf to keep it for a time and pass it on in due time to the "lawful owner".

If we accept Glorfindel was send to aid Gil-galad in the war of the seconde age, then the stones might be given to Gil-galad for his present needs and to pass them on to the Numenorens in due time.

Yust a small fanfic:
"Only for a time you might use these stones. And a short time it may seem to you. When the one that is named like these stones rules over Numenore you should give them to the lover of Aman, because he will be the greates enemy of your prenst enemy, and his and his kindreds need for the stones in the future will be great."

Respectfully
Findegil