going to Mordor

[Hans Markus Rod]

A few days ago i read the chapter in LOTR where Faramir warns Frodo against walking the stairs of Cirith Ungol. He says that "I do not think Mithrandir would have chosen that way".
Which way would Gandalv have chosen to enter Mordor if he did not fall into the abyss in Khazad Dûm?
He could not have entered trough the Black Gate unless with a great army behind him.

Perhaps he would have chosen to walk the long way north along the Ered Lithui range and enter Mordor from the East, but that might be unlikely because of the peril of coming upon easterlings or orcs. Maybe Gandalv knew of a secret passage into Mordor which none had yet discovered.

Please excuse me if someone has already posted a similar thread, the search function was messed up.

[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: Hans Markus Rod ]

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Like Aragorn said in the book, maybe even Gandalf didn't know. <-that is the part when Aragorn is unsure about the best travelling route and is grateful when Celeborn gives the boats to the fellowship.

[Secret Fire]

Well, maybe Gandalf had a plan to enter Mordor through a secret passage like you propose, but I find it severely unlikely that Gandalf had no plan, perhaps no final decision, buut still formulated plans. The fact is, however, that we do not know because Gandalf did fall and did not lead the company into Mordor, nor was he meant to so this speculation would truly change the entire trilogy, perhaps the eye would have seen them if Gandalf was with them as he has immense power and Sauron could sense power, as evidenced when Frodo claimed the ring. Maybe the main reason that the hobbits were able to make it all the way is the comparatively small amount of powerpresent in them.

[Gorwingel]

That is an interesting question (or at least I find it interesting). Maybe the ring would have never been distroyed if Gandalf had made it all the way and never had fought the Balrog? I think though that Gandalf had probably some slight idea. But one question that I need answering... (please enlighten me) Had Gandalf visited Mordor before and was he familliar with the area? I know that he had traveled all over Middle Earth and was very familliar with many areas, but had he been there?
Because if he had never been (though I think he must have gone there at least once) then of course he would have had no idea, or just a little bit of an idea from the information he would have probably gotten from maps.
But I doubt that they would have made it all the way to Mt. Doom unoticed if they had had Gandalf with them. Sauron would probably most likely have had the sense to sense the power of a great and powerful wizard coming near to him.

[Secret Fire]

Well, we do know from a very credible source (Gandalf himself) that Gandalf never went to Mordor while the Dark Lord was present because he states that he had visited the lesser fortress in Dol Guldur, but he had never been to his older and greater fortress in Mordor. This, of course, does not say that in the hundreds of years of life he had never been to Mordor itself, however, so the question remains. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Eurytus]

Of course even if Gandalf had not been in Mordor it is likely that he would have had access to detailed maps of its layout, even if these maps were somewhat out of date.
After all, after the Last Alliance the men of Gondor actually built many of the structures in Mordor that Sauron would later use. Originally they were for the purpose of keeping a watch on Mordor.
It is likely that during this time the men of Gondor would have made maps of Mordor, both to be able to best assess the positioning of their towers and for the purpose of troop movements.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hans Markus -- the words of Faramir do not mean that Gandalf, having been faced with the dilemma of trying to find a way into Mordor, would not have chosen this path if it was the only option. Gandalf himself stated Cirith Ungol to be an 'evil path', or something I believe, but never himself said that Frodo shouldn't have taken it.

[drigel]

Gandalf was around for a very long time. I think there would have been plenty of opportunities where Sauron was out of pocket (or out of body), and Gandalf could have been able to hike Mordor himself. After the battle of Dagorlad, there were plenty of Gondorians crawling around the place - im not sure about the Black Gate, but they built the Stair, did they not?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

There's no reason for Gandalf not to have gone there at some stage.

[Finwe]

Perhaps Gandalf would have decided to take things as they came along. Based on what happened to the Fellowship, and where they were, he would have made plans to travel. In the case of the Fellowship, I'd think it would be hard to have a travel itinerary etched in stone before setting out, because unexpected things happen, that could overthrow plans.

[Carorëiel]

Perhaps this is a bit off-topic or outside the vein of the subject at hand, but I always find it interesting think about the "bad" things that happen in LotR that "had" to happen in order for something else to work out. That was vague, I know.

Attempt to explain: Say Gandalf hadn't fallen. (His fall being the "bad" thing.) Of course, all of the events following those in Moria are called into question--who knows what might have gone differently if Gandalf had been there? (Tolkien, I suppose. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) But let's just think about the whole Gollum bit. If Gandalf had been around, would Frodo and Sam have taken up with Gollum? (Would they even have gone off on their own?) And if they didn't take up with Gollum, what would have happened at the Cracks of Doom? Would have been a very different story, obviously. So, in a ridiculously circuitious way, Gandalf had to fall so Gollum would be around to bite off Frodo's finger and save the world.

What does all that have to do with this thread? I don' remember. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] There was originally some connection in my head. Maybe it will be apparent to someone. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Incidentally, all this bad-stuff-happens-so-good-stuff-can bit is not my own. I know I read it somewhere--I think there's an entire critical essay on it somewhere. But I've moved to Ohio and foolishly left much of my Tolkien crit. books in PA. Dumb. So, if anybody knows the piece, could you post the title? I'd love to get reacquainted with whatever I just babbled about.

[Earendilyon]

In addition to Carorëiel's post, read also the thread Gandalf's staf.

[Secret Fire]

Carorëiel, I believe that you were moving toward my earlier post that said that they maybe would have been unable ot get into Mordor with Gandalf with them because the dark one would have sensed his power and being small in size and power greqatly assisted frodo and company in gaining access to the dark land. Maybe I'm off the wall, but I that's where your post took me.