Aragorn's Ancestors

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 512</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
I started a new thread in Silm

Michael my last post was actually being written as yours was being posted , so please consider all of it's contents/comments as being prior to your most recent post.

MMsaid;&quot;How much the titles mattered would be, I think, mostly an issue of
personal pride. And Tolkien did attribute or imply some stiff necks
to Feanor and Fingolfin in &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;. I don't
believe he would have left matters as they were had he started
tying all the threads together, but quite possibly he would have
gone back and changed the primary texts to have Fingolfin
asserting a claim to kingship prior to the departure from Tirion.

Pride makes a great stumbling block, and it would have made the
dispute between Feanor and Fingolfin more poignant, I think, if
they were both running around Aman claiming to be Finwe's heir. MM&quot;

Ahh .....the feeling of complete agreement. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">




Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Michael Martinez]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 29</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: canon and questions

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1] I don't cosider the Silm to be a 'primary text' [except in cases like Beren and Luthien where it virtually is the final form or ruin of doriath where the only other version is from the 30's]. I consider the versions in MR and WotJ and in some cases Lost Road to be the primary versions versions [ the non-Myth's Transformed versions } and while I put a great deal of weight behind CRT 's opinions and decisions he is since essentially having abandoned the Silm as a cohesive canon giving us dozens of alt. texts and no resolution to many matters and having not given us a complete and final account of just what about the Solm he would and would not keep, I propose more or less starting over w/ HoME as a base not the Silm as published.<hr></blockquote>

I used The Silmarillion as a common reference for discussing the kingship of the Noldor, but in terms of &quot;primary texts&quot;, my reference was to the primary texts which Christopher Tolkien used to compile The Silmarilion.

And my part in this was not to discuss a canon.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 2] I favor a later conception if it can be harmonized w/ out great damage to the story [thus MT fails in my and I believe I am correct in saying your opinion also] and while this Fingolfin as King conception creates difficulties for the MR and 77 versions , I am not sure yet if they are to damaging to the text.<hr></blockquote>

To work Fingolfin's claim into the storyline, you must change the political map of Beleriand prior to Fingolfin's death, and in doing so you have to change all references to what the ambitions of the various princes were. How, for example, can Finrod be the overlord of all the Elves of West Beleriand, under Thingol's authority, if he is still merely a prince of the Noldor under Fingolfin's rule? Nargothrond would merely be a province in the kingdom of the Noldor, and that doesn't work within the framework of the Quenta.

I think Tolkien would have realized this and he probably would have allowed the kingships to stand, even if he would have extended Fingolfin's claim to be Finwe's heir back to Tirion.

There comes a point where the later texts are simply incompatible with the texts of the LoTR era.

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</p>

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 68</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: I started a new thread in Silm

1)
-----------------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
So, if The Silmarillion won't serve we're just going to jump around from text to text? I'll accept going forward, but not going back. Since you've jumped to The Peoples of Middle-earth I insist we stay there, or go back to The Silmarillion.
-------------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have used sources other than the Silmarillion previously in this thread, for example quotes or references in posts: 3/20/01,7:30 pm; 3/20/01,10:54 pm; and 3/21/01,8:27pm.
As far as you _insisting_ on what we do, there is nothing prior posts which stipulate that I am to use only one source, or that we are only discussing the Silmarillion. We are discussing the 'Kingship of the Noldor' and there are relevant materials by JRRT throughout the corpus, and I will use them as needed. If you wish to use only The Silmarillion, that is your right, and if you would like me to use just The Silmarillion, you could politely _ask_, rather than _insist_ (or put succinctly do not try to tell me what to do).


2)
------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Finfgolfin did not claim any kingship upon his father's death.
-------------------------------------------
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
&quot;(after Morgoth had contived the murder of Finwe) Feanor was deprived of the leadership, and the greater part of the Noldor who forsook Valinor marched under the command of Fingolfin, the eldest son of Indis ... and in spite of the enmity between him and Feanor he joined with full will in the rebellion and the exile, though he continued to claim the kingship of all the Noldor.&quot;
PoME.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
Which Christopher points out is in conflict with what is written in &quot;the final story&quot; (on page 361 in end note 32 -- references are to &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; unless otherwise stated):


Quote:
[It is said in the text at this point that Fingolfin claimed to be 'the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe', and the same was said in the essay proper (p. 336). All the texts agree that after the banishment of Feanor from Tirion, and the departure of Finwe with him to Formenos, Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion; and it was said in the Quenta Silmarillion (see IV.95), V.235) that afterwards, when the Flight of the Noldor began, those of Tirion 'would not now renounce the kingship of Fingolfin'. On the other hand, in the final story of the events leading to the Flight, when Feanor and Fingolfin had become half-brothers, they were reconciled 'in word' before the throne of Manwe at the fateful festival; and in that reconciliation Fingolfin said to Feanor: 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow' (see X.197, 287).]

The note follows on the text where Tolkien wrote:
Quote:
...Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwe to Nolofinwe before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe, and so enraqed Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships. The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth. The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest.
[End Quote]

So there are some serious problems for your case here if you're going to insist on using the Shibboleth as a basis for your argument.
--------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I see no serious problems. Fingolfin said 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow' before Finwe was dead, and before Feanor claimed the kingship. In context Fingolfin's statement has nothing to do with Feanor's 'kingship' (or lack thereof). It is noted in HoME 10: &quot;'The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people' my father noted on a copy of LQ 2: 'also because of the promise made by Fingolfin above)'. This refers to a passage in the final rewriting of the previous chapter (p. 257, ~58c), where Fingolfin said to Feanor before Manwe 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow.'&quot;
Here Fingolfin follows Feanor into Exile because of his promise and because he will not desert his people (who do not renounce his rule).


3)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
The divisions of the Noldor appear to derive from Feanor's own actions and choices.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Refer to quote in above post.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
Which has nothing to do with the point I made.
-------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Which refers to the actions of Feanor causing division. Feanor was 'acting like a king' by marshalling the Noldor. However most of the Noldor were not 'of a mind to take Feanor as King and refused to renounce Fingolfin'.


4)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
I believe that Fingolfin was in fact a king after Feanor abandoned him in Araman. It's not clear that Fingolfin's first rule over the Noldor was as king, or that he ever claimed to be a king until Feanor stole the ships.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have posted on the contextual changes of Fingolfin's kingship (or lack thereof) in Tirion above.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
I have pointed out your errors and the problems with your sources.
----------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
No you have not. In post: 3/20/01 10:54pm, I referred to a passage in Quenta Silmarillion where JRRT writes of kingship of Fingolfin over the Noldor of Tuna. I pointed out that he does not use 'kingship' in his later rewrites of this passage, which seems to indicate a change in the conception. Where is the error?

5)
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Quothe MichaelMartinez:
When Fingolfin's host entered Middle-earth, however, he unfurled his banners and had his trumpets sounded. This appears to be the action of a king (note Aragorn's march on Mordor displays similar claims of authority).

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Or a great captain and chieftain, even acting as a king, but who wants to be THE King.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
There are no texts where any great captains or chieftains do such a thing. The unfurling of banners and sounding of trumpets (and procession of heralds, for that matter) is clearly a royal prerogative in Tolkien. Captains act on behalf of their leaders, not in their own rights.
--------------------------------------------


Quothe Tar-Elenion:
&quot;But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners warched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwe...&quot;.
&quot;But at last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eonwe filled the sky.&quot;


6)
---------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maedhros, however, was being diplomatic and trying to heal the division of his people. Ceding the kingship to Fingolfin was a significant act. He clearly was able to establish a new kingship (as were Turgon and Finrod) a year or two later.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Maedhros 'waived his _claim_ to kingship over ALL the Noldor'. He established _A_ kingship over part of the Noldor.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
In the context I provided WAY UP ABOVE, that is, The Silmarillion, Maedhros was king the moment his father died. Fingolfin's kingship appears to have begun when Feanor abandoned him, but Maedhros was still, technically, the heir of Finwe.
-------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have been discussing 'The Kingship of the Noldor', not 'The Kingship of the Noldor as it appears in The Silmarillion'. But as I have shown, in 'The Silmarillion' Feanor only _claims_ the position 'King of the Noldor'. But the majority of the Noldor do not accept his claim, and refuse to renounce the rule of Fingolfin. In 'The Silmarillion' Maedhros 'waives his _claim_ to Kingship over all the Noldor', all he has is a claim, not the Kingship itself.

7)
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Quote Michael Martinez:
The line of authority thus passes from Finwe to Feanor, from Feanor to Maedhros, and from Maedhros to Fingolfin. But in the meantime, new lines of authority were established by Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fingolfin's kingship was established by the fact that Feanor abandoned most of his people.

Quothe Tar-Elenion
Authority passes from Finwe to the rival claimants (Feanor and Fingolfin). Feanor who has already claimed the Kingship does not refer to himself as King when speaking to the Noldor when they are stopped by the Herald of the Valar: &quot;Then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their King alone into banishment with his sons only?&quot;.

Interesting. He does not ask the Noldor if they will send forth their King, but only the 'heir' of their King. Why if he was actually their King does he not calll himself that? Because he was claiming the title, but had not been accepted as such?

Quothe Micheal Martinez:
No, authority passes to Feanor, as I stipulated. You're trying to bring in a secondary and contradictory text which is (on the points of kingships) largely incompatible with The Silmarillion.
----------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
My 'send forth the heir of their King' quote is from 'The Silmarillion'. Once again: Feanor here has already _claimed_ the Kingship of the Noldor when he says this. But he does not refer to himself as King, only as 'heir of the King'.


<img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
We weren't speaking of &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; we were speaking of The Silmarillion. Big difference there. You would do well to disallow your unannounced shift of context since it's landed your argument in a mire of contradictions.
----------------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
_WE_ were not doing any such thing. _I_ was discussing 'The Kingship of the Noldor'. If _YOU_ were 'speaking only of The Silmarillion' then you would have done well to state when we started discussing this that _you_ only wished to use 'The Silmarillion'. My argument that Feanor was not 'The King of The Noldor', nor was Maedhros, has yet to be contradicted by the corpus. It is your arguments that have been textually contradicted.


9)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Fingolfin did not inherit his authority from Finwe in either account, that of The Silmarillion or that of &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;. The Shibboleth does attempt to explain his name in a new context, but in constructing that context tears down other themes (the kingships established by Maedhros, Turgon, and Finrod early in the First Age) which are firmly embedded in the texts.
-----------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
The contradiction is there if you wish to interpret it as such, I prefer to justify and reconcile _apparent_ contradictions before making the claim that it is a contradiction . So there were certainly various 'kingships' before the fall of Fingolfin, but they became became more seperate and divided after his death, especially with the ruin of Beleriand.

10)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
We are both dancing on pinheads here. My initial point stands because I had clearly indicated I was using The Silmarillion as a source. Bringing in a secondary source to rebut The Silmarillion is only useful if the secondary source is both authoritative and coherent, not to mention with related texts. In this case there is neither authority for the Shibboleth (because it contradicts everything else) nor even coherence.
--------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion
We have both be using 'The Silmarillion' as _a_ source. But I have not been using it as _the_ source, especially since there are other highly relevant materials out there. I never agreed to limit myself. As the Silmarillion itself is not authoritative and is as much as secondary source as any other work that JRRT did not complete, it is quite useful to bring in the Shibboleth.

&lt;snip&gt;

11)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
In The Silmarillion, the kingship remained with Finwe until he died, and then passed to Feanor, and then a new kingship began with Finarfin (after he turned back) and with Fingolfin (after Feanor abandoned him), and then the original kingship passed to Maedhros, who ceded it to Fingolfin.
-------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
A great theory but 'The Silmarillion' does not support you.
In The Silmarillion, Finwe was the first King of the Noldor.
At the banishment of Feanor, Finwe held himself to be 'unkinged' and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in his place. However Finwe is still referred to as the King. After Finwe's death, Feanor _claims_ the Kingship, but the majority of the Noldor refuse to renounce Fingolfin. Later when speaking of himself Feanor calls himself the 'heir of the King', he does not call himelf 'the King'. When Feanor dies Maedhros has a claim on the Kingship. He waives that claim in favour of Fingolfin to whom he says the Kingship would rightly come. This Kingship passed to Fingolfin because he was the eldest of the house of Finwe there and the Kingship was previously Finwe's.


12)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Wrong divisions of the Noldor. Look at the passage where Feanor abandons the majority in Araman. The fleet was manned &quot;only by those who had fought&quot; at Alqualonde. That could include some of Fingon's warriors, though not Fingon himself

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Correct divisions.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
No, they are the WRONG divisions because I raised the point and I know darned good and well what I was referring to. I have explained what I was referring to. Thank you for not rewriting what I say.
----------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You were responding to my posted responce to lindil, which spoke of Maedhros leading the Feanorians after Feanor's death but that the majority of the Noldor were still with Fingolfin. I was speaking of the divisions among the Noldor. You responded that the divisions were not clearly stipulated at this point and I showed that the divisions had long since begun to occur. You then mentioned that the Fleet when Feanor abandoned Fingolfin etc could have had some of Fingon's warriors with it, which seemed to imply that the Noldor were not so divided as some of the Fingolfians were with Feanor [this seemed to be what you were impling]. You then provided a partial quote to back up your statement ('the fleet was manned only by those who fought at Alqualonde'), to which I supplied the remainder of the quote so that the context would be more clear, 'and were BOUND to Feanor'. Thank you for not taking my statements out of context.

13)
------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Unless someone forgot to tell Fingon that Feanor had led the way, it's pretty certain he had a good idea of whom he was helping.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Fingon went to the aid of his kin. Feanor was his uncle and hence his kin.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
Everyone knew Feanor was in the lead. The book states quite clearly that Fingon thought the Noldor were being attacked, and that included Feanor.
----------------------------------------


Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You started this by saying that since Fingon rushed to Feanor's aid Feanor was acknowleged king of all the Noldor (or words to that effect). I pointed out that the text says Fingon went to the aid of his _KIN_, not his _KING_. Feanor was his KIN. We both know who was being attacked so what ever you are tring to argue there is pointless.

&lt;snip&gt;

14)
-----------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
I'm actually quite satisfied to stay with the text I was discussing originally&quot; The Silmarillion. Staying in context is the only way to keep any meaning to this discussion.
-----------------------------------------


Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I am quite satisfied to look at the full context of the matter under discussion, The Kingship of The Noldor. Looking at the full context is the only way to get a much more informed veiw.



15)
----------------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
Michael:
Maedhros was clearly ging to be ina position of leadership amongst the feanorians prior to Fingolfin's arrival and subsequent to Feanor' eath. How could he not be the leader of the feanorians?


Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maehdros is not a &quot;chieftain&quot; in The Silmarillion. There is no such title and I was merely flinging Tar-Elenion's nit-picking back at him over the absence of words in the text (which is why we suddenly found ourselves in a discussion of &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; -- conveniently, the word &quot;chieftain&quot; may be found there).
----------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Actually I was quoting from 'Quendi and Eldar' regarding the 'chieftain' comment. You accuse me of 'nit-picking' and then do the same thing yourself? That 'Maedhros is not a 'chieftain' in The Silmarillion' is beside the point. I am not discussing just The Silmarillion nor have I been. Besides you initial post said 'nowhere' not 'nowhere in The Simarillion'. The context of the quote I supplied is clear enough.

16)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maedhros is first named as a prince (see the chapter &quot;Of Eldamar and the princes of the Eldalie&quot. Later on he becomes a king. He is never a chieftain.
-------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion
'Quendi and Eldar' of course contradicts this. Though that is out of the narrow context you are attempting to define.

17)
----------------------------------
Quothe lindil:
MM:&quot;But Fingolfin had not been acknowledged as king or declared to be king, and had not claimed the kingship (or any kingship).

lindil: but he had been ruling the Noldor of Tirion for nigh in a decade [of Valinorean years?]

Quothe Michael Martinez:
Show me where The Silmarillion says he was a king in Tirion. That was the point of the entire exercise.
There was only one king at the time: Feanor.
----------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
There was only one King at the time Fingolfin ruled in Tirion: Finwe.



1<img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">
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Quoth Lindil:
It seems the final answer to Fingolfin as[claiming and being folowed as ] King [by the majority] in Valinor is yes from the PoME and no from the 77 well after looking over JRRT's PoME it is possible that he conceived of Fingolfin's ruling the Noldor as a kIngship ,btu he certainly never stated it a ssuch and it seems w/ the 77 and Morgoth's Ring versions he would have been renouncing any such claim before the throne of Manwe . this is to my mind a somewhat difficult situation.
------------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Except that '77 says that the majority of Noldor refused to renounce Fingolfin. Also Fingolfin did not renounce any claim to the Kingship before the throne of Manwe. Finwe was King, and Fingolfin was not claiming the Kingship until after Finwe died.

19)
----------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
I do [as do other veiwers not posting] find the whole thing fascinating even though I am not up to the speed of yourselves [Michael and Tar - Elenion], I do hope however that we can avoid loss of peace in the discussion [def. one of the most interesting in the Books forum in a while].
----------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I hope so to, and would prefer not to be provoked. I find it very interesting.




20)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Lindil, The Peoples of Middle-earth is useful for dealing with issues of canon in The Silmarillion but not for dealing with issues of text in The Silmarillion.
You might as well quote Shakespeare.
------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Then it is a good thing we are discussing the 'Kingship of the Noldor' and not 'the text in the Silmarillion'.



21)
-----------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
There is no provision in any other text for the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arising after the fall of Fingolfin. The &quot;Shibboleth&quot; can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A) provides information which is not provided elsewhere without conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than to other texts.
-----------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
In your opinion. Not in mine.



&lt;snip&gt;

22)
--------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
I don't want to get angry and I don't want to put anyone in a bad light. Those late night messages can sometimes come across pretty rough, though, try as I might not to say anything offensive.
----------------------------------------



Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Okay.

&lt;snip&gt;

23)
--------------------------------------------
Quothe lindil:
while this Fingolfin as King conception creates difficulties for the MR and 77 versions , I am not sure yewt if they are to damaging to the text. They certainly give Feanor more reason [prideful ones I admit ] to have abandoned them and in general advances the subtlty and depth of the story. It is conceivable that since we don't know JRRt's mind as to wether he would have kept the setting aside of the sword - drawing by fingolfin and his words&quot; Thou shalt lead and I will folow.&quot; I think w/ out a deep exploration of the texts and it's implications
it might be conceivable to keep both.
-------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Quite. See above for some related matter to 'thou shalt lead' passage.










Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 3/22/01 9:39:59 pm

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 213</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: canon and questions

Just finished the Suite101 essay Elves by the numbers.

I suppose one could quibble over the assumptions made for generational staggering, but the methodology is sound. Over the years, the populations would be quite large since attrition was only due to &quot;unnatural&quot; causes.

Coming at the problem from another angle leads one to believe that MM's generational assumptions are fairly close to what was necessary to generate populations able to support the armies the Noldor fielded.

An army of 10,000 requires a tremendous amount of logistical support. For every elf on the field, there were many more engaged in the tasks of food production, husbandry, weapons manufacture, clothing, transportation, engineering, etc. I don't think we should assume the Spartan efficiencies of a military civilization.

In other words, it really takes quite a large population to support armies even of this size. I forget what the ratio of field to support is in a modern army, but it is quite high for any army. Beyond pure military support, as indicated in the previous paragraph, is the support of the entire population behind it.

In other words, we are talking about large populations indeed.

That settled, if we aren't speaking of a Spartan civilization, to what can we compare it? Or can we at all?

Much of the population was hundreds to thousands of years old. Elvish children were evidently raised to their particular station in life. I'm thinking something almost Asian...

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[Michael Martinez]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 30</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: I started a new thread in Silm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1)
-----------------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
So, if The Silmarillion won't serve we're just going to jump around from text to text? I'll accept going forward, but not going back. Since you've jumped to The Peoples of Middle-earth I insist we stay there, or go back to The Silmarillion.
-------------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have used sources other than the Silmarillion previously in this thread,<hr></blockquote>

You mentioned one source prior to my reference to The Silmarillion, in response to my comment: &quot;Anyway, it may be this statement or a similar one which confuses some people. All three of the royal families of the Eldar were represented in the descendants of Elros, but those descendants could not claim Ingwe as an ancestor.&quot;

At (3/20/01 7:59:17 pm) I took exception with your erroneous statements about the line of kingship, and you responded (3/20/01 10:54:30 pm) without establishing any references other than &quot;Quenta Silmarillion}. I followed up with reference to The Silmarillion at (3/20/01 11:40:10 pm).

So we were clearly using The Silmarillion as the basis for discussion until you jumped outside the frame of reference to bring in the &quot;Shibboleth&quot;.

Our comments were rooted in The Silmarillion. Since the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; is problem-laden this whole exchange is pointless and misleading for lurkers.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
2)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Finfgolfin did not claim any kingship upon his father's death.
<hr></blockquote>

This point stands. And you have not addressed the serious problems with your argument.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 3)
---------------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
The divisions of the Noldor appear to derive from Feanor's own actions and choices.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Refer to quote in above post.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
Which has nothing to do with the point I made.
-------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Which refers to the actions of Feanor causing division.<hr></blockquote>

Wrong actions. If you're going to respond to what I write, you would do well to stay on topic.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 4)
---------------------------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
I believe that Fingolfin was in fact a king after Feanor abandoned him in Araman. It's not clear that Fingolfin's first rule over the Noldor was as king, or that he ever claimed to be a king until Feanor stole the ships.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have posted on the contextual changes of Fingolfin's kingship (or lack thereof) in Tirion above.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
I have pointed out your errors and the problems with your sources.
----------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
No you have not.<hr></blockquote>

I have done so repeatedly, and will not keep pointing out the errors you refuse to admit to. They are posted above for everyone to see.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 5)
------------------------------------------
Quothe MichaelMartinez:
When Fingolfin's host entered Middle-earth, however, he unfurled his banners and had his trumpets sounded. This appears to be the action of a king (note Aragorn's march on Mordor displays similar claims of authority).

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Or a great captain and chieftain, even acting as a king, but who wants to be THE King.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
There are no texts where any great captains or chieftains do such a thing. The unfurling of banners and sounding of trumpets (and procession of heralds, for that matter) is clearly a royal prerogative in Tolkien. Captains act on behalf of their leaders, not in their own rights.
--------------------------------------------


Quothe Tar-Elenion:
&quot;But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners warched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwe...&quot;.
&quot;But at last the might of Valinor came up out of the Weat, and the challenge of Eonwe filled the sky.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Ingwe was a king, the last time I checked The Silmarillion and related texts.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 6)
---------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maedhros, however, was being diplomatic and trying to heal the division of his people. Ceding the kingship to Fingolfin was a significant act. He clearly was able to establish a new kingship (as were Turgon and Finrod) a year or two later.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Maedhros 'waived his _claim_ to kingship over ALL the Noldor'. He established _A_ kingship over part of the Noldor.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
In the context I provided WAY UP ABOVE, that is, The Silmarillion, Maedhros was king the moment his father died. Fingolfin's kingship appears to have begun when Feanor abandoned him, but Maedhros was still, technically, the heir of Finwe.
-------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have been discussing 'The Kingship of the Noldor', not 'The Kingship of the Noldor as it appears in The Silmarillion'. <hr></blockquote>

The Kingship of the Noldor is canonically documented only in The Silmarillion and its constituent texts, which do not inclue &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;. You might as well draw upon The Book of Lost Tales for a discussion of Hobbits. There would be an equal amount of relevance.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 7)
--------------------------------------------
Quote Michael Martinez:
The line of authority thus passes from Finwe to Feanor, from Feanor to Maedhros, and from Maedhros to Fingolfin. But in the meantime, new lines of authority were established by Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fingolfin's kingship was established by the fact that Feanor abandoned most of his people.<hr></blockquote>

This point stands.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ------------------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
We weren't speaking of &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; we were speaking of The Silmarillion. Big difference there. You would do well to disallow your unannounced shift of context since it's landed your argument in a mire of contradictions.
----------------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
_WE_ were not doing any such thing. <hr></blockquote>

See above. We were indeed.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 9)
--------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Fingolfin did not inherit his authority from Finwe in either account, that of The Silmarillion or that of &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;. The Shibboleth does attempt to explain his name in a new context, but in constructing that context tears down other themes (the kingships established by Maedhros, Turgon, and Finrod early in the First Age) which are firmly embedded in the texts.
-----------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
The contradiction is there if you wish to interpret it as such, I prefer to justify and reconcile _apparent_ contradictions before making the claim that it is a contradiction . So there were certainly various 'kingships' before the fall of Fingolfin, but they became became more seperate and divided after his death, especially with the ruin of Beleriand.<hr></blockquote>

There is no interpretation required to see that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote that no one but Fingolfin was a king until after Fingolfin's death. Hence, there is an incredible contradiction which you are attempting to obfuscate with completely invalid attempts at reconciliation. Ignoring the facts doesn't reconcile the contradictions.

In &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;, there is only one Noldorin king in Beleriand from the time of Fingolfin's arrival until his death: Fingolfin. And that clearly contradicts everything in the primary texts. Hence, the points you draw upon in &quot;The Shibboleth&quot; are without merit. You're wasting your time on this.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 10)
----------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
We are both dancing on pinheads here. My initial point stands because I had clearly indicated I was using The Silmarillion as a source. Bringing in a secondary source to rebut The Silmarillion is only useful if the secondary source is both authoritative and coherent, not to mention with related texts. In this case there is neither authority for the Shibboleth (because it contradicts everything else) nor even coherence.
--------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion
We have both be using 'The Silmarillion' as _a_ source.<hr></blockquote>

Quite true. I reluctantly agreed to use the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; because I knew it would only undermine your argument.

Basically, you're trying to prove the impossible: That Fingolfin was caonically a king of the Noldor before he arrived in Middle-earth. He indisputably was not.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 11)
-------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
In The Silmarillion, the kingship remained with Finwe until he died, and then passed to Feanor, and then a new kingship began with Finarfin (after he turned back) and with Fingolfin (after Feanor abandoned him), and then the original kingship passed to Maedhros, who ceded it to Fingolfin.
-------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
A great theory but 'The Silmarillion' does not support you.<hr></blockquote>

If you'd read The Silmarillion (and I have certainly provided a few citations to help in this respect) you would see that it certainly does. I'm only quoting the book, after all. To suggest it doesn't support me is rather absurd.

I don't have to find a statement in the book which says &quot;Fingolfin was not king of the Noldor until he reached Middle-earth&quot; because I have already provided sufficient proofs to show who WAS king of the Noldor in Aman at various times. It follows that since Fingolfin wasn't in the very short list of kings, he wasn't king of the Noldor.

You will find absolutely no statement anywhere in the book which makes Fingolfin a king while Finwe and Feanor were alive and in Aman.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> -----------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Wrong divisions of the Noldor. Look at the passage where Feanor abandons the majority in Araman. The fleet was manned &quot;only by those who had fought&quot; at Alqualonde. That could include some of Fingon's warriors, though not Fingon himself

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Correct divisions.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
No, they are the WRONG divisions because I raised the point and I know darned good and well what I was referring to. I have explained what I was referring to. Thank you for not rewriting what I say.
----------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You were responding to my posted responce to lindil, which spoke of Maedhros leading the Feanorians after Feanor's death but that the majority of the Noldor were still with Fingolfin.<hr></blockquote>

What I'm responding to has nothing to do with the fact that you keep bringing up the wrong stuff when addressing what I wrote.

I get to pick and choose what I'm referring to, no one else. Leave it at that.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 13)
------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Unless someone forgot to tell Fingon that Feanor had led the way, it's pretty certain he had a good idea of whom he was helping.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Fingon went to the aid of his kin. Feanor was his uncle and hence his kin.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
Everyone knew Feanor was in the lead. The book states quite clearly that Fingon thought the Noldor were being attacked, and that included Feanor.
----------------------------------------


Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You started this by saying that since Fingon rushed to Feanor's aid Feanor was acknowleged king of all the Noldor (or words to that effect).<hr></blockquote>

I said no such thing. Please stop putting words into my mouth. That is the most infuriating way to disagree with someone.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 14)
-----------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
I'm actually quite satisfied to stay with the text I was discussing originally&quot; The Silmarillion. Staying in context is the only way to keep any meaning to this discussion.
-----------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I am quite satisfied to look at the full context of the matter under discussion, The Kingship of The Noldor.<hr></blockquote>

As established in The Silmarillion. If you had really wanted to bring in &quot;The Shibboleth&quot; to support your argument, you should have done so to begin with so it would be clear that was what you wanted.

And since the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; is irrelevant to The Silmarillion on this matter, it was a complete waste of your and my time (not to mention the time of everyone reading this interminably long exchange of who-said-what).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maehdros is not a &quot;chieftain&quot; in The Silmarillion. There is no such title and I was merely flinging Tar-Elenion's nit-picking back at him over the absence of words in the text (which is why we suddenly found ourselves in a discussion of &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; -- conveniently, the word &quot;chieftain&quot; may be found there).
----------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Actually I was quoting from 'Quendi and Eldar' regarding the 'chieftain' comment. <hr></blockquote>

Disallowed, as I stated previously.

Ditto for point 16.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 17)
----------------------------------
Quothe lindil:
MM:&quot;But Fingolfin had not been acknowledged as king or declared to be king, and had not claimed the kingship (or any kingship).

lindil: but he had been ruling the Noldor of Tirion for nigh in a decade [of Valinorean years?]

Quothe Michael Martinez:
Show me where The Silmarillion says he was a king in Tirion. That was the point of the entire exercise.
There was only one king at the time: Feanor.
----------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
There was only one King at the time Fingolfin ruled in Tirion: Finwe.<hr></blockquote>

Wrong time. Lindil's reference to Fingolfin's rule in Tirion during the Exilic period doesn't change the fact that I was speaking of Feanor's kingship in Tirion after Finwe's death.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 20)
---------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Lindil, The Peoples of Middle-earth is useful for dealing with issues of canon in The Silmarillion but not for dealing with issues of text in The Silmarillion.
You might as well quote Shakespeare.
------------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Then it is a good thing we are discussing the 'Kingship of the Noldor' and not 'the text in the Silmarillion'.<hr></blockquote>

See above. You should drop this silly argument.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 21)
-----------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
There is no provision in any other text for the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arising after the fall of Fingolfin. The &quot;Shibboleth&quot; can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A) provides information which is not provided elsewhere without conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than to other texts.
-----------------------------------------

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
In your opinion. Not in mine.<hr></blockquote>

I wasn't expressing an opinion. But feel free to correct the facts by citing a relevant text. Use any volume from The History of Middle-earth from Morgoth's Ring onward.

I await correction on this issue with great anticipation.


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[Michael Martinez]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 31</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: canon and questions

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Just finished the Suite101 essay Elves by the numbers.

I suppose one could quibble over the assumptions made for generational staggering, but the methodology is sound. Over the years, the populations would be quite large since attrition was only due to &quot;unnatural&quot; causes.

Coming at the problem from another angle leads one to believe that MM's generational assumptions are fairly close to what was necessary to generate populations able to support the armies the Noldor fielded.

An army of 10,000 requires a tremendous amount of logistical support. For every elf on the field, there were many more engaged in the tasks of food production, husbandry, weapons manufacture, clothing, transportation, engineering, etc. I don't think we should assume the Spartan efficiencies of a military civilization.

In other words, it really takes quite a large population to support armies even of this size. I forget what the ratio of field to support is in a modern army, but it is quite high for any army. Beyond pure military support, as indicated in the previous paragraph, is the support of the entire population behind it.

In other words, we are talking about large populations indeed.<hr></blockquote>

The ratios of populations to army sizes change depending on cultural sophistication and technology. Our highly technological civilization in the United States has about 9 support troops for every front-line soldier. This is extreme compared to ancient armies. The typical Roman legion of the period circa 100 BCE - 300 CE was expected to perform most of its own engineering tasks while also doing the bulk of the fighting. The soldiers were in fact put to use between battles and marches to keep them busy and out of trouble.

On the other hand, the Vikings often sowed their crops, went to sea for a few months, and then returned home to harvest the crops. The wealthier families had slaves to take care of things, but the general population didn't.

Many Germanic tribes also had a period of campaigning in the summer when the men weren't needed for the farms.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> That settled, if we aren't speaking of a Spartan civilization, to what can we compare it? Or can we at all?

Much of the population was hundreds to thousands of years old. Elvish children were evidently raised to their particular station in life. I'm thinking something almost Asian... <hr></blockquote>

One must arbitrarily pick a model and see if it works. Of course, people will do what they can to shoot holes in anyone else's model. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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[Michael Martinez]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 32</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: canon and questions

No, I have changed my mind. I am done with this thread. It's going nowhere and Tar-Elenion and I are obviously not going to be able to discuss the same thing at the same time.

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[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 69</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Kingship of the Noldor

1)
-------------------------------
Quothe MM:
You mentioned one source prior to my reference to The Silmarillion, in response to my comment: &quot;Anyway, it may be this statement or a similar one which confuses some people. All three of the royal families of the Eldar were represented in the descendants of Elros, but those descendants could not claim Ingwe as an ancestor.&quot;

At (3/20/01 7:59:17 pm) I took exception with your erroneous statements about the line of kingship, and you responded (3/20/01 10:54:30 pm) without establishing any references other than &quot;Quenta Silmarillion}. I followed up with reference to The Silmarillion at (3/20/01 11:40:10 pm).

So we were clearly using The Silmarillion as the basis for discussion until you jumped outside the frame of reference to bring in the &quot;Shibboleth&quot;.

Our comments were rooted in The Silmarillion. Since the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; is problem-laden this whole exchange is pointless and misleading for lurkers.
-------------------------------------------

My statements are correct. 'Quenta Silmarillion' I was refering to is in HoME 5. The statement in it I was refering to is not in 'The Silmarillion'.
_OUR__ comments were not rooted in The Silmarillion. _My_ comments were rooted in the greater corpus.

2)
-----------------------------------
Quothe MM:
This point stands. And you have not addressed the serious problems with your argument.
----------------------------------

Point does not stand. As I have previously quoted JRRT's statements which disagree with you.
I have addressed (and will) any such problems as I find.

3)
--------------------------------
Quothe MM:
Wrong actions. If you're going to respond to what I write, you would do well to stay on topic.
--------------------------------

I quoted actions of Feanor that caused division, he was acting as though he were King and the majority of the Noldor took exception, and would not renounce Fingolfin.

4)
-----------------------------
Quothe MM:
I have done so repeatedly, and will not keep pointing out the errors you refuse to admit to. They are posted above for everyone to see.
--------------------------------

In what I have numbered 4, I cited 'Quenta Silmarillion' as mentioning Fingolfin's 'kingship' in Tuna. I stated JRRT did not use the term in his later rewrites, this seems to imply that there was some change in his conception of this.
You have not pointed out how this is in error, because it is not in error. It is fact.

5)
-------------------------
Quothe MM:
Ingwe was a king, the last time I checked The Silmarillion and related texts.
----------------------------------

Ingwe did not lead the Vanyar to the War of Wrath. He remained behind in Valinor: &quot;but he came never back, nor looked again upon Middle-earth&quot;.
Eonwe's trumpets sounded and Eonwe was not a King.
(I see you were posting your responce while I was correcting typos, your error in this is perhaps understandable, though an error nonetheless.)

6)
-----------------------------------------
Quothe MM:
The Kingship of the Noldor is canonically documented only in The Silmarillion and its constituent texts, which do not inclue &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;. You might as well draw upon The Book of Lost Tales for a discussion of Hobbits. There would be an equal amount of relevance.
-------------------------------------------

The Silmarillion is not canon (or no moreso than any of the posthumously published works). Some portion of the Shibboleth is used (that is included) in 'The Silmarillion'.
You have a habit of dismissing anything that does not agree with you personal position as not relevant. Fortunately you do not decide what is relevant.

7)
------------------------------------
Quothe MM:
This point stands.
--------------------------------------

As I have already backed up with quotes from the corpus,
your point does not stand. The Kingship of the Noldor was first Finwe's. When he held himself 'unkinged' Fingolfin ruled in his stead. Until he died Finwe was still considered the King. When he died Feanor claimed the kingship. This was not generally accepted. When speaking of himself after his claim, Feanor referred to himself as the heir of the King, not as the King himself. Fingolfin also claimed the Kingship. We now have two rival claiments. After Feanor died, Maedhros had a claim to the Kingship. He did not attempt to exercise this claim , but instead waived the claim (he did not relinquish the Kingship, which he did not have), and said the Kingship was rightfully Fingolfin's.

<img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">
---------------------------
Quothe MM:
See above. We were indeed.
------------------------------

No _WE_ were not. You may have been. I was not (see above). I would suggest that you refrain from telling me what I was doing.

9)
----------------------------
Quothe MM:
There is no interpretation required to see that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote that no one but Fingolfin was a king until after Fingolfin's death. Hence, there is an incredible contradiction which you are attempting to obfuscate with completely invalid attempts at reconciliation. Ignoring the facts doesn't reconcile the contradictions.

In &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;, there is only one Noldorin king in Beleriand from the time of Fingolfin's arrival until his death: Fingolfin. And that clearly contradicts everything in the primary texts. Hence, the points you draw upon in &quot;The Shibboleth&quot; are without merit. You're wasting your time on this.
----------------------------------------

JRRT did not write that, he wrote that the Noldor became divided into seperate kingships after the death of Fingolfin. Their various kingships were much less united after the fall of Fingolfin and ruin of Beleriand.

You make a habit of attempting to narrowly define and dismiss any text that does not suit your own personal position, with little regard to the actual relevance of the text. I prefer to look at the greater context. Fortunately you do not set the rules.

10)
---------------------------
Quothe MM:
Quite true. I reluctantly agreed to use the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; because I knew it would only undermine your argument.

Basically, you're trying to prove the impossible: That Fingolfin was caonically a king of the Noldor before he arrived in Middle-earth. He indisputably was not.
-------------------------------

Note: that Michael took out part of my comment so that what he is responding to with 'quite true' is no longer in the full context I posted above. See #10 in my above post for full context.

The Shibboleth does not undermine my position. It supports it.

Basiclly your wrong. I would suggest that if you had read my posts you might note that I have not said Fingolfin was king before he arrived in Middle-earth. I have stated my belief to be that he (like Feanor) was not king he (like Feanor) were only (rival) claimants. Fingolfin did not actually become King until after Maedhros rescue.

11)
-----------------------------------
Quote MM:
If you'd read The Silmarillion (and I have certainly provided a few citations to help in this respect) you would see that it certainly does. I'm only quoting the book, after all. To suggest it doesn't support me is rather absurd.

I don't have to find a statement in the book which says &quot;Fingolfin was not king of the Noldor until he reached Middle-earth&quot; because I have already provided sufficient proofs to show who WAS king of the Noldor in Aman at various times. It follows that since Fingolfin wasn't in the very short list of kings, he wasn't king of the Noldor.

You will find absolutely no statement anywhere in the book which makes Fingolfin a king while Finwe and Feanor were alive and in Aman.
--------------------------------------

You have provided no quote that backs up that
Feanor (or Maedhros) was The King of The Noldor. I have provided various quotes that he was just a claimant to the title. As it does not support you it is not absurd.

I have no need for you to provide such a statement about Fingolfin, as I have not said that about him. I would suggest that you actually read the posts you are responding to.

As for you suggestion that I read The Silmarillion, I will take that under all the due consideration that it deserves.

12)
-----------------------------------------
Quothe MM:
What I'm responding to has nothing to do with the fact that you keep bringing up the wrong stuff when addressing what I wrote.

I get to pick and choose what I'm referring to, no one else. Leave it at that.
--------------------------------------------

If this is the case then perhaps you should clarify what you wrote.
What it seems is:
You posted a partial citation that you were using to seemingly suggest that some of Fingon's people could have been on the ships with Feanor. It seemed to suggest the case that the Noldor were not so divided as there were Fingofinians with the Feanorians. Of course I posted the quote in full context where in it shows your error those that were on the ships both fought a Alqualonde and were _bound_ to Feanor. You can of course pick and choose all you want. Which is precisely what you did by providing a _partial_ quote that seemed to support your position, although in full context it does not.

13)
--------------------------------------
Quothe MM:

---------------
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You started this by saying that since Fingon rushed to Feanor's aid Feanor was acknowleged king of all the Noldor (or words to that effect).
----------------

[MM's responce:]
I said no such thing. Please stop putting words into my mouth. That is the most infuriating way to disagree with someone.
------------------------------------------

Perhaps you should look at your post 3/21/01 8:53 in which you write:

Quothe Michael Martinez:
&quot;The divisions of the Noldor at this point were not clearly stipulated. Feanor had stranded Fingolfin with all the Noldor whom he felt he could not trust. In fact, since Fingon had rushed to Feanor's aid at Alqualonde, it is apparent that Feanor was stilled acknowledged as king by all the Noldor (on the march).&quot;

I would suggest that you read you own post before accusing others of 'putting words in your mouth'

14)
-------------------------------------
Quothe MM:
As established in The Silmarillion. If you had really wanted to bring in &quot;The Shibboleth&quot; to support your argument, you should have done so to begin with so it would be clear that was what you wanted.

And since the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; is irrelevant to The Silmarillion on this matter, it was a complete waste of your and my time (not to mention the time of everyone reading this interminably long exchange of who-said-what).
---------------------------------------

It was clear we were discussing the Kingship of the Noldor. I never agreed to and you did not ask that we keep to only what is said in 'The Silmarillion'. If you had only wanted to keep this in 'The Silmarillion' you should have asked when you first posted. I don't accept you trying to put your own personal constraints on me.
I used cites from other sources with no complaint from you until they specifically refuted what you were claiming. As is often the case, if something does not agree with you narrow personal interpretation you cry 'foul'.

You may consider it a waste of your time, but you have no right to speak for me, and I am sure that the others reading this can make up their own mind on whether it is a waste of their time or not. I would suggest you not speak for those who have not given you that right.

15 and 16)
---------------------------------------------
Quothe MM:

Disallowed, as I stated previously.

Ditto for point 16.
-----------------------------------------

It is so comforting to know that you make the rules for what is and is not allowed when discussing aspects of the Legendarium.
My points are valid.

17)
-------------------------------
Quothe MM:
Wrong time. Lindil's reference to Fingolfin's rule in Tirion during the Exilic period doesn't change the fact that I was speaking of Feanor's kingship in Tirion after Finwe's death.
----------------------------------

In which case your responce had nothing to do with her reference. Of course Feanor was never king in Tirion. He only laid claim to the Kingship, and the Noldor of Tirion did not accept that claim.

--------------
18 and 19 not responded to.
--------------

20)
-----------------------------------
See above. You should drop this silly argument.
----------------------------------

I have not dismissed your arguments as silly etc. I have been responding politely with citations backing up my position.

21)
-------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez::
There is no provision in any other text for the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arising after the fall of Fingolfin. The &quot;Shibboleth&quot; can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A) provides information which is not provided elsewhere without conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than to other texts.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
In your opinion. Not in mine.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
I wasn't expressing an opinion. But feel free to correct the facts by citing a relevant text. Use any volume from The History of Middle-earth from Morgoth's Ring onward.

I await correction on this issue with great anticipation.
----------------------------------------

'The Shibboleth can only be reasonably accepted...', is an opinion. Specifically yours. It is not my opinion.
Or are you going to suggest that your opinion is actually the rule you have decided on, and naturally everyone is bound to follow it?

The Shibboleth does not say that Noldorin kingships in Beleriand arose only after the Fall of Fingolfin. It says that the Noldor became divided into seperate kingships, which is a different thing altogether, considering that their kingdoms were much more united prior to the Dagor Bragollach.


End note:
--------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
I don't want to get angry and I don't want to put anyone in a bad light. Those late night messages can sometimes come across pretty rough, though, try as I might not to say anything offensive.
-----------------------------------

Compare this statement when reading Michael's posts made after this statement.

-------------------------------------
I have edited this post slightly for clarification and typos on 3/24/01. I would have done so sooner but I had work to catch up on.
---------------------------------------






Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 3/24/01 6:02:21 pm

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 514</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
well

without getting into a personality contest I will say that I have learned an immense amount about a subject that I did not even realize there was so much to know!

It will forever stand tall in downs history I imagine as the most complex <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> , cross referenced <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> , rough and tumble <img src=frown.gif ALT=""> , fast paced<img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/"> , [ I would go work for a mere 3 or 4 hours and come home to 10 dense posts] and of near mind-boggling nuances. to be honest I will have to read the last dozen posts over very carefully to hopefully understand the fine points.

I nominate it [whatever else may follow ] for the the post of the month award [for content not style<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ]

Michael it is quite understandable to feel you may have blown a fuse [I feel somewhat that way from trying to follow the discussion at all - w/ all 'kinslaying aside' !!!
may I humbly put forth taking a few thousand breaths over the next day or 2 and then maybe revisit it or not [that is what I plan on doing !].
Of course we will all be wathching this post as long as it is on the front page of the books and no one will think less of you if you return after a bit.

I for one am very appreciative of the serious study and memory [human] it takes to even keep 1/2 of this material located in the books by memory or semi-easy reference.

Of course 1/2 the board may well be scared silly of any longterm canon issue debates [and well they should<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> }

BW - how about a &quot;who was the King of the Noldor at what times? poll &quot;!!! <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> <img src=smile.gif ALT="">
A truly worthy use of the Poll function.


Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/23/01 3:32:06 am

[Odysseus819]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 246</TD><TD><img src=http://images.ofoto.com/photos51/1/40/56/13/93/0/93135640103_0_SM.jpg?v=1 WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: well

Gee and I just wanted to know if Elessar was descended from Ingwë ! <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Yes that was like Finrod battling Sauron. Extremely instructive.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 217</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: well

But who was Finrod and who was Sauron? <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Like Lindil (who is a HE, by the way!), I learned a great deal, but I'm afraid that I'm not learned enough in these matters to &quot;call&quot; the debate one way or the other. Lacking the references myself, I have to read the context of the posts from the posts themselves. Valiant efforts were made to supply that context, but really, only folk such as the participants, who have studied these volumes at great length, are fit to

Perhaps if forced to judge, I could call it on points, but there was no knockout. (But Lindil would win Miss Congeniality. <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> )

I will say that it was a bit more heated than what I have observed here on the Downs, but not more so than on other forums. I've taken part in debates of similar tone that have shed more heat than light, so I can't hold the participants in judgement for that.

That did not make it as pleasant a read as it might have been, which is why I would consider some other thread for &quot;Thread of the Month&quot; (if we had such a thing). Still, even with evident personal animus, this thread is packed with info, and I find it worth the effort to wade through.

If y'all are agreed to disagree (and I've frankly lost track of what the REAL disagreement is), then I personally thank you all for your efforts!

And check with me Odysseus before you start another thread! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

(And I'll give the Elvish/Asian construct idea some thought...)

<center><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgard...ilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.aspThe Hobbits</a>~http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a> </center></p>

[Glorfindel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 16</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aragorn's Ancestors

wow, this has got to be one of the most thought out and worked on threads on this board.
it took me about an hour to read the whole thing.

</p>

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 70</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: well

Please note that I edited my just previous responce to Michael Martinez some minutes ago on 3/24/01, for clarification and typos. I would have done so previously but work interfered.

-------------------------------
Quothe Odysseus819:
Gee and I just wanted to know if Elessar was descended from Ingwë! Yes that was like Finrod battling Sauron. Extremely instructive.

Quothe Gilthalion:
this thread is packed with info, and I find it worth the effort to wade through.

Quothe Glorfindel:
wow, this has got to be one of the most thought out and worked on threads on this board.
it took me about an hour to read the whole thing.
--------------------------------

Thank you all. It is pleasant to know that you did not consider it a waste.



Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 71</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: well

-----------------------
Quothe lindil:
I will say that I have learned an immense amount about a subject that I did not even realize there was so much to know!

It will forever stand tall in downs history I imagine as the most complex, cross referenced, rough and tumble, fast paced, [I would go work for a mere 3 or 4 hours and come home to 10 dense posts] and of near mind-boggling nuances. to be honest I will have to read the last dozen posts over very carefully to hopefully understand the fine points.
-------------------------------

Thank you. I am also pleased to know that you did not consider it a waste of your time.



Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 72</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Shibboleth and the Noldorin Kings

This is in responce to the statements indicating that the Shibboleth is not a valid source of information regarding this matter (or whatever matter may not be agreeable to the personal veiw of one party or another) since it says that 'the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arose only after the fall of Fingolfin, which is contradicted by other, earlier source material' (this is paraphrased but seems to be the intent).

The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: &quot;The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin.&quot;

It is pointed out that The Silmarillion and its source material as primarily contained in HoME 5, The Lost Road; HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring; and HoME 11, War of the Jewels, all mention the Noldorin kingships in Beleriand well before the of Fingolfin in Year of the Sun 456, of the First Age.
Some relevant citations are:
&quot;Fingolfin was King of Hithlum and Nivrost, and overlord of all the Gnomes. Felagund, lord of caverns, was King in Nargothrond, and his brothers Angrod and Egnor were the lords of Dorthanion and his vassals&quot;, Lost Road, Annals of Beleriand, change to Annal 52 contained in endnote 12.

&quot;Though Fingolfin of Hithlum was overlord of all the Noldor, Inglor... became indeed the greatest prince in the land. For King Felagund he was in Nargothrond, whereas his brothers Angrod and Egnor were lords of Dorthonion and his vassals&quot;, Annal 62, Grey Annals, War of the Jewels.
(Note these seperate realms but under Fingolfin).

&quot;This was the second great battle of these wars and was named the Dagor Aglareb... and for a long while after none of the servants of Morgoth would venture from his gates for they feared the kings of the Gnomes&quot;, LR, Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 8 the Siege of Angband.
(Note The Silmarillion uses 'lords of the Noldor', not 'kings of the Gnomes').

&quot;But Maedhros restrained his brothers, and they departed from the council, and soon afterwards they left Mithrim and went eastward beyond Aros to the wide lands about the Hill of Himring. That region was named thereafter the March of Maedhros&quot;, The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor.

&quot;There [in Nevrast] was for many years the realm of Turgon the was, son of Fingolfin&quot;; and &quot;Thus the sons of Feanor under Maedhros were the lords of East Beleriand&quot;, The Silmarillion, Of Beleriand and its Realms.

&quot;...men of the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar.&quot;
&quot;Therefore the kings of the three houses of the Noldor, seeing hope of strength in the sons of men.&quot;
&quot;...after some fifty years many thousands had entered the lands of the Kings.&quot;
The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men into the West.

This should be enough to establish that there were indeed several Noldorin kingships, all before the Fall of Fingolfin.

As has been noted it has been argued that this is contradicted by the 'Shibboleth of Feanor' which has the several kingships of the Noldor arising only after Fingolfin's death.

But that is not what it says.
The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: &quot;The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin.&quot;

The difference is clear. The Shibboleth says nothing about the various kingships arising. It speaks of division.

Before the Fall of Fingolfin these Noldorin kingdoms were united.

&quot;Therefore when the council came to the coosing of one to be overlord of the Exiles and the head of all their princes, the choice of all save few fell on Fingolfin&quot;, The Grey Annals.

&quot;[Maedhros, head of the Feanorians] remained for his part in friendship with the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin and would come among them at times for common council&quot;, The Silmarillion and similarily the Gray Annals.

&quot;In this year Fingolfin, King of the Noldor, called a great council, and made a high feast, that was long after remembered as Mereth Aderthad, the Feast of Reuniting... Thither came many of the cheiftains and people of Fingolfin and Inglor [Finrod]; and the sons of Feanor Maidros and Maglor with warriors of the March; [and Cirdan and his folk and other Grey Elves and Nandor from Ossiriand and Mablung and Daeron]. At Mereth Aderthad many counsels were taken in good will and oaths were sworn of league and friendship...&quot;, Annal 20, The Grey Annals and similarly in The Silmarillion.

During the Dagor Aglareb the forces of Fingolfin and Maedhros relieved Dorthonion which felt the main assault of Morgoth's host and was held held by sons of Finarfin. Together they defeated the servants of Morgoth and destroyed the host. After this the princes &quot;... drew closer their leaguer and strengthened and ordered their watch, setting the Seige of Angband...&quot; and because of this Morgoth attempted to &quot;sow fear and disunion among the Eldar&quot;, quotes from The Silmarillion, 'Return of the Noldor. Here we have united Noldo realms defeating Morgoth's host, and Morgoth seeking to cause 'disunion'.

When the Edain came into Beleriand: &quot;Fingolfin, as King of all the Noldor, sent messengers to welcome them; and then many young and eager men o the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar&quot;, The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men. Here again we are shown that though there are various kings Fingolfin as King of all the Noldor welcomes the Edain and only then do they take service.

So we have here the various Noldo kingdoms united, maintaining a leaguer against Morgoth, aiding one another, sworn to friendship. Meanwhile Morgoth seeks to cause disunion.

Fingolfin would like to undertake an attack on Morgoth, but most of the Noldor trusted in their combined leaguer and did not wish to start an assault upon Thangorodrim. Then comes the Dagor Bragollach. Morgoth's hosts &quot;...assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about Angband...&quot;, &quot;So great was the onslaught of Morgoth that Fingolfin and Fingon could not come to the aid of te sons of Finarfin...&quot;; Dorthonion takes the brunt of the attack and Angrod and Aegnor are slain. Finrod coming to aid from the south is cut off and has to flee back to Nargothrond. Hithlum holds out &quot;but Fingolfin was sundered from his kinsmen by a sea of foes&quot;. The sons of Feanor are also defeated &quot;and well nigh all the east marches were taken&quot;. Celegorm and Curufin flee south and west and eventually take refuge in Nargothrond. While Maedhros holds out on Himring, Lothlann is overwhelmed and the lands east and south are ravaged, Caranthir flees south to Amon Ereb.
Fingolfin seeing the 'utter ruin of the Noldor' goes forth and challenges Morgoth, getting himself killed. Fingon then becomes King of the Noldor though the kingdoms are now broken and isolated. Minas Tirith on TolSirion is attacked and none come to its aid. Orodreth flees to Nargothrond. Morgoth sends out spies &quot;among the peoples, accusing their kings and chieftains of greed and of treachery one to another... these lies were often believed; and indeed as the time darkened they had a measure of truth&quot;. When the Swarthy Men come into Beleriand Fingon is not said to send them messages, though the sons of Feanor take them into service. &quot;When Turgon learned of the breaking of the leaguer of Angband he would not suffer any of his own people to issue forth to war&quot;. Morgoth &quot;desired greatly to learn tidings of Felagund and Turgon. For they had vanished out of knowledge&quot;. Seven years after the Bragollach Morgoth assualts Hithlum and Fingon is sorely pressed and outnumbered. None of kin come to his aid and he is succored by Cirdan and the Falathrim. At the death of Finrod, Orodreth becomes king in Nargothrond and drives out Celegorm and Curufin.
Quotes from The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand.

Here the Noldor are divided into seperate kingships (with Fingon as the nominal High King).

So we have gone from united (if independent) kings and kingdoms before the Dagor Bragollach, to divided and isolated kingdoms of the Noldor after the death of Fingolfin.

Even Maedhros recognizes this. After Beren and Luthien take a Silmaril: &quot;In those days Maedhros son of Feanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Luthien were sung in many songs throuout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, if THEY could not AGAIN UNITE, and make NEW LEAGUE and common council&quot;, The Silmarillion, Of the Fifth Battle, The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, [my emphasis].


The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: &quot;The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin.&quot;

This does not contradict the Silmarillion and its related sources which have various (united) kingships of the Noldor starting after the choosing of Fingolfin as High King, and which become seperate and divided after the Fall of Fingolfin.


Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 520</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Kingship of the Noldor

Thanks for the excellent overview Elenion.


It seems that shibboleth only [in the case of the Noldorin princes] amplifies and clarifies things in the earlier silmarillions and should be whenever possible worked into the final form of the Silmarillion.
we are given so many excellent details: Feanor killing his youngest son. The interrelationships of the princes . The attempt of Turgon to save his wife. The long plaited hair of Fingon....

To leave such things out of a New silmarilion would to my mind make the project virtually pointless.




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Tar Elenion]

up

[elengil]

OK
----------------------------------

Elrond/Elros (and therefore Aragorn and Arwen)

sons of

Earendil and Elwing

Earendil son of Idril and Tuor

Idril from Turgon

Turgon from Fingolfin

Fingolfin from Indis of the Vanyar and Finwe

--------------------------------

Elwing daugher of Dior and Nimloth

Dior from Luthien and Beren

Luthien from Elwe and Melian the Maia

------------------------------------

Arwen daughter of Elrond and Celebrian

Celebrian from Galadriel and Celeborn

Galadriel from Finarfin and Earwen

Earwen from Olwe of Alqualonde

------------------------------

Elwing from Dior and Nimloth

Dior from Luthien and Beren

Beren from Emeldir and Barahir

Barahir from Bregor... from Beor the Old

---------------------------------

Earendil from Tuor and Idril

Tuor from Huor and Rian

Rian from Belegund

Belegund from Bregolas

Bregolas from Bregor

---------------------------------------

Earendil from Tuor and Idril

Tuor from Huor and Rian

Huor from Galdor and Hareth of the Haladin

Hareth from Hador Lorindol .... from Marach

-------------------------------

Huor and Hurin

from Hareth and Galdor

Hareth from Halmir


---------------------------

OK so we can trace Aragorn back to Elwe and Finwe, and we can trace Arwen back to Olwe and Elwe and Finwe

but NEITHER directly to Ingwe

Man.. these family trees dont fork a whole lot do they? *snicker*

Family tree?? More like a family wreath!!

[lindil]

So I suppose in response to the original question posed last Year [!] is that Eldarion can claim to be descended from all of the High[and Grey]Elven royal Housesbut not in the case of the ever elusive Vanyar from Ingwe directly.

Not that this claim was likely to mean much too any but the most fanatical loremasters [like us ]. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I am far from being one of the lore-masters who have brilliantly argued the Kingship of the Noldor, but I have read all the materials they reference. As I read it, the actual argument became lost to me.

The thing that stands out the most is that there was not a unified Noldor after the fall of Finwe; hence, you can not have a recognized King. As has been cited and re-cited ad nauseam, when Finwe died there were three contenders for the Kingship as is evidenced by the fact that each of the Sons of Finwe had their own following, with Fingolfin's being far greater than the other two. When Finarfin forsook the March, he became High King of the Noldor on Tuna after his pardon by the Valar.

from The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor
There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm.

As for Feanor's claim, the majority of his own people chose not to follow him. He had the option of seeking to inforce his claim or abandoning it. I contend that by wantonly murdering his Teleri kin and then stranding the majority of his people on the shores of Araman, Feanor gave up all right to be called High-king of any of the People's of Middle-earth. He made claim (as Tar-Elenion points out) to being an heir to the Kingship but never outright claimed it. (How could he when he had no support to enforce his claim?) The mantle (whether claimed or no and whether desired or no) then fell to Fingolfin. He was deemed High-king of the Noldor of Middle-earth. I agree with those that have posted reference to the Feanoreans for those that followed Feanor could no longer be deemed Noldor. (They had abandoned the bulk of their Noldoran brethren on the shores of Araman).

Hence, Feanor and his sons were never deemed to be Kings of the Noldor at all, simply because they (by their actions and those of the majority of their peoples) had no enforceable right to the title.

At least that's the way I see it... (and I'm sure the scholarly posters will soon destroy my post!) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Grond - Hammer of Hell ]