For a drearier, scarier, better ‘downs.

[Farael]

I was thinking about posting on the “Community Statement” thread, but then I realized that most of what I wanted to say was well…. Off-topic. With regards to that thread, of course. All I can say about Davem is that I didn’t particularly like or dislike him, and I was put off a little by his tone. I chose to simply steer away from him, as I got the feeling that he was not doing it on purpose but rather that it was his personality. And trust me, I know how that goes… I’ve rubbed many people the wrong way without even meaning to.

Enough about Davem, I’d really like to ask the (hopefully many) subsequent posters to leave that whole issue aside when you step in here.

Yo’, why did you write about Davem then?

Well, I believe that it was necessary to provide some background… although what prompted this idea was not Davem’s banning per-se but rather…

Originally Posted by Valier

If you want something in specific to happen or change then just say it.

And also the (several) comments about the quantity and quality of discussion dying down, which actually reflect one of my concerns, if perhaps for other reasons.

Well, guess what? I do want something to change, and I’d like to provide a space where we can suggest our ideas on how to make The Barrow Downs a better place for all of us. That is, unless the Barrow Wight decides that such an endeavor should only be undertaken by the administrative body of the ‘downs. And let it be noted that I believe it might just be the case. If the Barrow Down’s administration wanted a “comment box” they would have probably done it already, but what I want to propose is a little different.

Probably the best way to explain what I mean is with an example. (And if you have stuck with me through all of the above nonsense, you are a really patient and charitable soul)

Problem: The books discussion is slower than what I’d want it to be.

Possible Cause: The works of Tolkien are finite. Lord of the Rings is what, a thousand five-hundred pages long? I’m sort of guessing there, but what I mean to say is that it is very much possible for virtually all the “easy” topics to have been discussed. Now, there is probably an infinite number of new takes and new approaches that can be taken to the same piece of work, but sooner or later it becomes hard to find novel ways to talk about Tolkien’s works. That alone would explain partially why few new things have been cropping up. We’ve talked about everything! Or at least, many, many things. From who, what, which, when or where is Tom Bombadil to Legolas’ hair colour, if it’s there we’ve talked about it.

There is also another issue. It is frowned upon, and with good reason, to open up a thread discussing issues that have been talked about already. But I’ve seen a few (and mind you, you can probably count them with the fingers of your hand) good looking new threads that were quickly referred to an old, existing, dead thread and died as well. I am not implying that we should open a new thread for every little idea that pops up in our collective minds, but…

Possible solution: No, I will not say “allow us to open as many new threads as we want” but rather, how about drawing a line and saying “ok, topics that have not been discussed in the last (X amount of time) can be re-opened for discussion in a new thread”?

There should be some restrictions, such as (and just brainstorming here, feel free to add your own or comment on mine):
*The two threads should not have the exact same approach, even if they share the same topic.
*The first post of the thread should encourage discussion, not raise a question that could be answered by reading the old thread.
*There should be a considerable time gap between the last post of the old thread and the new thread. What would “considerable” be? Well, if both threads are very similar (but never the exact same), I’d suggest not less than a year, maybe more than that. If the topics are the same but the approaches are radically different, perhaps a couple months would do.

So that’s my suggestion. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it’s the best I can come up with. Yet here’s the (I think) great thing about this thread…. You are all invited to join in, comment on my perceived problem, its causes and suggest a solution. Two heads think better than one, so how much better would two thousand heads be, drawn from as many different places and backgrounds as we all are?

Hey buddy… you said this was not a comment box, but it sure looks like one

Well, it’s up to us not to make it go down that road. What I want to propose is that we discuss these issues just like we discuss a topic in the books section, with the lateral thinking we use to solve quizzes and with the jovial mood and the effort we put into a nicely done RPG post.

Ultimately it will be the Administrators’ job to decide if any idea proposed here is worth implementing, and perhaps most importantly, if it’s possible. I mean, it’d be great to have an encyclopedia of old threads where excerpts from the “Barrow Down’s gold” and links to the appropriate thread for further enlightment can be found… but how many man-hours would be necessary to compile only a tenth of the information in here? Or perhaps it’d be a good idea to assign a “mentor” to each “newbie” that comes in, but again is it doable? And most importantly, While I am sure that the Barrow Wight and the other moderators and administrators of this forum are interested in our input, it is solely their responsibility and ultimately their choice to “legislate” the rules and “enforce” them.

We can only suggest and, once we have developed a good-looking idea, perhaps PM someone so that the administrators can consider our idea. The point of this thread is to work out ideas among (potentially) all of us ‘downers before we submit them to the appropriate people, not to replace or in any way undermine the Barrow Downs’ staff authority with regards to rule making.

Having said that, let the discussion begin! And let’s try to talk about one topic at the time… since there’s been some concern expressed about the Books sub-forum, I think we should start on that, then at some point perhaps we’ll discuss something else.

[arcticstorm]

I agree with what you are trying to do here farael and I think it would be good to see some of the older topics able to be discussed again. But like you said, the works of Tolkien are finite and hard to work more with that what we have already done here in the books forum. But i think that in order to help the books forum, more threads need to be opened on the minor works.
I do not recall seeing very many of them ever posted in the books, and those that have been usually die fairly quickly, sadly. As some of his minor works are. in my opinion, better than even The Lord of the Rings.
All I am saying basically is that more time in the books fofrum should be invested in discussing these oft overlooked jewels.

[Farael]

While I agree on principle, there is one issue.... LoTR, The Sil and perhaps to a lesser extent The Hobbit are the most "popular" Tolkien books. Of the minor works (if that's indeed what they are) I've read Roverandom and Tales from the Perilous Realm, but they lack the deep background that LoTR has, which also allows much of the discussion.

Of course, if you have any good topic ideas on any of the tales told on the aforementioned, I promise I'll read them throughly and post something if I have indeed something to add.

Now that I think about it, I think it only takes one or two good topics to get the ball rolling... When I first came to the 'downs there were several interesting discussions in the books section, so I'd check there regularly... now I tend to check Mirth first, then RPG, and THEN books.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

What's wrong with posting on the old threads? Heren Istarion does it regularly, and it often triggers some interesting conversation. Since I don't personally care who started a thread or how long ago the last comment on it was made I'm usually quite happy to do that. I seem to remember that this is what the forum guidelines suggest as well, but perhaps those aren't the things to bring up just at the moment.

The problem is that our turnover of members is slowing now that film fever has begun to die down. It's inevitable that someone who's been around here for five or six years might have lost a bit of steam when it comes to certain issues, and there just isn't the influx of new blood there was in '04. The answer is simple: post well. If you can't think of a new thread, try looking at the old ones: I guarantee that nobody can remember them all, and even H-I can't have read every single one. I know for a fact that we left some issues unresolved, but lacked the right perspective to round things off. Even if you don't find inspiration in the musty archives, you'll get a different slant on matters. Some of my favourite members haven't been seen here in an age, and I know that their posts were well worth reading.

The oldest threads here are only six years old. How out-of-date can this sort of discussion get in six years anyway?

[JennyHallu]

arcticstorm,

If you feel there are great discussions to be had on Tolkien's minor works, then post a topic, start a discussion. There are no rules or policies limiting conversations concerning the minor works, and it is the policies of the forum which are, I believe, what Farael is targetting here.

If the Minor Works are not well-represented in the topics in the books forum, it is because no one has started threads concerning them.

Farael,

I wholeheartedly support your proposal concerning the books forum. This forum has enjoyed the long time support of many of its users, with archives going back for years. Books discussions have touched on a multitude of topics, and before the spiders disappeared it was a delight to follow them into dusty threads, many imported from the old forum, where it was common to find the newest post was in 2002.

Now, it is an incredible and an exciting thing that there are still many active members here who took part in these four-year-old discussions, but it must be remembered that the internet is an active and dynamic medium, and I think we here should reflect that.

I feel that there are many members in my position: Though I have quickly risen to a position of high reputation, and, I hope, respect, I have only been truly active in the Mirth and RPG fora, though I have posted occasionally in Books. Why have I not posted there more often? There are two main reasons.

1. Though I am well-read, and a practiced debator (Quite literally: I spent four years competing in formal debate like less nerdy children compete in sports.), my Tolkien scholarship is not up to the level of many in this forum. Topics and discussions that are old-hat to many of the experts who participate (and have, for years, participated) are yet new and fascinating to me. The more esoteric discussions the forum has, in recent years, focussed on, are challenging to those rich in Tolkien knowledge, but so far above my head that I can participate with little more than occasional comments.
2. It is more than intimidating to append my neophyte thoughts onto discussions the elite of this forum have long-ago dismissed as complete. And it is thoroughly squelching to ask a question to have it brushed aside as so much chaff. "I'm sorry, we've already covered that: you can read our opinions here..."

I believe that a thread or question should be allowed to arise anew.


I have a second proposal, but I shall not clutter this response to Farael's excellent proposal. I'll post again later.

EDIT: Squatter, look again at the new members. There was a large influx of new posters in the early part of this year, including myself.

[Macalaure]

Those are good points you raise, Farael and Jenny. I've been thinking similar for some months already, so I think this particular problem is completely independant of the davem-incident, but not much less important to solve.

I feel there is some sort of shift in the community of the Downs. There are the scholars on the one side, and there are the people who can be found in Mirth and Quizes or RPGs mainly and rarely or never contribute to the discussions on the other. I've heard many say that they would like to post more in the Books, but nevertheless they rarely do. I think Farael and Jenny already give the reason, so I won't repeat. We have the N&N board for newbies, we have The Books for the scholars, but what about the 'apprentices'? People like Farael, Jenny, me and many, many others, who are (far) beyond 'Why didn't the eagles bring the Ring to Mordor?'-questions but who struggle to follow, let alone contribute to, the scholarly discussions. It would be a drastic measure, but why not create a fourth discussion board, for us 'Wizard Pupils'? It would be a way to drag the semi-educated back into discussing Tolkien and Middle-earth instead of leaving them to waste ( ) their time in the Mirth. Of course I don't mean to exclude the scholars from that board. They would be as welcome as they're in N&N to spread their knowledge. But on 'WP' (or whatever to call it) they would be less intimidating.

We have a lot of members who are learned enough for good discussions, but not for the scholarly. We should find a way to make them discuss more - at the level of their ability. How to exactly achieve it is not important. In the long term the scholar discussions will benefit from this, too, I'm convinced.

[Boromir88]

But on 'WP' (or whatever to call it) they would be less intimidating.~Mac

Never ever feel intimidated by the discussions in the books forum, or the people that do the 'discussing.' If you've got some input, come in and put it out there. We can all learn something from the very oldest Tolkien reader, to the very youngest to the books.

We all make slip-ups and mistakes. So, if you do make an error, and somebody else corrects it, don't feel ashamed or embarassed...accept it as a learning experience and realize that the person was only trying to help you further understand.

I had an old signature about steps to take to make yourself look smarter than you truly are.

1) Only talk about the stuff you know
2) Admit it when you make a mistake
3) Agree with me

Ok. so #3's a joke (or is it?) but 1 and 2 I still try to stick to as much as possible.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hee Hee

(Now how could I resist doing that, given such a wonderful opening.) You want a lively discussion? Read through the first page or so of that thread (skip the rest) and then post your own reply at the end.

And may the Mods forgive me...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Never ever feel intimidated by the discussions in the books forum, or the people that do the 'discussing.' If you've got some input, come in and put it out there. We can all learn something from the very oldest Tolkien reader, to the very youngest to the books.

I completely agree. Think of those 'intimidating' folks. Have you ever interacted with them outside of Books? Bet they weren't so scary when you played Werewolf with them, were they?

Don't be afraid of 'academic' discussions. It's just a bunch of stodgy old coots tossing ideas out. If you don't know what's going on, ask for an explanation.

If you don't think your questions add to the discussion, think of it this way: you're the editors. You're the sounding board. You're the audience. These aren't private conversations, they're public discussions. If the public doesn't get it, ask for them to explain it another way. Most people love to talk, so they'll happily yammer on about what they were saying twenty times if it helps you to agree with them. Books isn't scary. The only scary thing is sauntering in and saying "Hey guys, I'm dead interested, but I have no clue what you're talking about. Will you help me learn?"

Do you need some extra courage to ask? I'll taunt you, if you want.

Do it, you won't. Go on. Ask a question about what the heck's going on in a Books discussion you've been trying to follow.

I dare you.

[JennyHallu]

And yet, when's the last time you took serious, committed part in a Books discussion, Fea?

The fact remains that I don't feel the Books discussions are terribly accessible to the average forumite. And part of that is we can't start a topic on an old thread without the weight of all that's been said before hanging over us.

And ability to follow the discussions isn't the issue. It's time, and resources (I don't own HoME, or the SILM, or even the Canon, for that matter, or any of the Minor Works, or the letters, and so it's hard for me to question a Tolkien quote offered as Definitive Proof, because I don't have the context.), and the fact that Books discussions often seem like academic discussions between the two or three serious and focussed individuals who have those resources and the time. Those who seriously and often participate in Books discussions know eachotehr very well, know the forum very well, refer to discussions they had six years ago...Frankly, it feels like interrupting.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

And yet, when's the last time you took serious, committed part in a Books discussion, Fea?

The fact remains that I don't feel the Books discussions are terribly accessible to the average forumite. And part of that is we can't start a topic on an old thread without the weight of all that's been said before hanging over us.

And ability to follow the discussions isn't the issue. It's time, and resources (I don't own HoME, or the SILM, or even the Canon, for that matter, or any of the Minor Works, or the letters, and so it's hard for me to question a Tolkien quote offered as Definitive Proof, because I don't have the context.), and the fact that Books discussions often seem like academic discussions between the two or three serious and focussed individuals who have those resources and the time. Those who seriously and often participate in Books discussions know eachotehr very well, know the forum very well, refer to discussions they had six years ago...Frankly, it feels like interrupting.

So go ahead and interrupt. I don't mind -- I'm sick of talking to the same people again and again anyway, I'd love to know what a fresh pair of eyes will have to say about these ideas. Ideas, by the way, never die and good conversations never end or conclude. If someone finds a definitive answer to a question that proves one of two things:

1) the question was too simple, or

2) the person answering it is deluded.

And for what it's worth, I've never read the HoME and it's been -- gosh -- more than 15 years since I read the Sil. I do have a copy of the Letters but I hardly ever refer to it...I usually wait for somebody else to post a relevant section from a letter and then I just reply to what's there!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

And yet, when's the last time you took serious, committed part in a Books discussion, Fea?

Lord of the Bible. Twenty-nine posts. Mostly asking questions. I don't know enough about the Bible to do more than posit ideas, but I know how to ask questions and learn from them.

Before that, apart from the occasional quick post, my lengthier involvements were probably Fordim's Calling All Women, which is nearing a year ago, and an attempt at discussion on the parallels of Dante's Inferno with LotR in Lush's Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr! Well, sort of... a bit more recently. It would appear I stuck my head in on Is Eru God? for a time.

So you're right... it's been about a year since I've involved myself in Books with any sort of depth. But it was a conscious decision to devote what 'Downs time I have to fiction writing and the occasional werewolf game. If I see a topic that catches my eye, I'll post to it. But in general, I had to choose what I have time for.

However, my point was not "Look at me! I post there all the time!"

It was "Don't be afraid to post if you want to."

[JennyHallu]

I think my point has also been mostly missed.

I'm not saying that people should or should'nt be afraid of posting in the Books forum.

I'm saying that they are.

And, face it, as much as you or anyone tells me I shouldn't be intimidated doesn't change the fact that I am. And it's difficult to start a new thread when, let's face it, it's all been said. Coming back to find my question ignored except for a "refer to..." isn't encouraging.

And seriously, how often is such a referral actually a catalyst for further discussion in that old thread?

Clearly something isn't working.

It's all well and good you saying that there shouldn't be a problem. But it's not productive, nor will it help in finding a solution. I'd like to find something less drastic, however, than Mac's solution of a new forum.

[JennyHallu]

I'm double posting, because, naturally, I thought of what I really wanted to say right after I hit "submit"

My main problem with the current policy of closing repeat threads regardless of the time since the topic was discussed is that I feel it gives the wrong impression to a new poster.

Instead of saying "We'd be happy to discuss this, just do it over here", I think it more gives the impression, "We've already talked this over, solved this problem, come to a conclusion, and you're welcome to read it if you like, but we don't want to talk about it again."

Seriously, if a thread hasn't been touched in a year, what's the harm in archiving that and starting anew? Will someone please respond to the actual proposal?

[Kuruharan]

...but we do already have an archive forum.

Haudh-en-Ndengin

Admittedly, it appears that the most recent thread there is two years old. Perhaps it is time for another gathering of prominent threads of the past into that forum? Say if it was an important thread of over a year ago (defined by having multiple pages of responses) perhaps it should be put there for ease of access.

Just a suggestion…

[JennyHallu]

Thank you, Kuru.

I know that the archive forum exists, I merely suggest putting some things into it. It seems largely neglected, and perhaps what we really need are some more predictable guidelines of what is archived and when.

That way searching for an old thread is easier, and it would be a simple matter for a neophyte poster to see what had been recently discussed, without being squelched on the basis of a six-year-old discussion.

Completely off topic:

Isn't the word squelch delightful? Almost as good as defenestrate...

[Lalwendë]

Jenny, I really don't think anyone's doing anything nasty by closing repeat threads, as there's the need to keep things tidy. But I use our local forum which runs on the same software and on there they combine rather than close threads (e.g. if there has been big fire someone will start a thread "What's The Big Fire At Hillsborough?" and someone else might then start one "There's A Big Fire At Hillsborough!", so they combine the threads) - don't know if that would work here? Depends if people would get precious about it.

As to joining in, my first posts were a load of rubbish, but I didn't care. I just watched what was going on and gradually eased myself in. Got totally ignored at first, but I erm...ignored it. And for Farael, funnily enough, it was indeed davem himself who was the first to bother to talk to me!

If you aint read all the subsidiary books it's no problem, and indeed you might find most of them quoted anyway not just here bit all over the net, so a bit of googling might find what you want. And if you've not read them then now's the time to start because you don't know what you're missing.

If you think something might've been done before (and it usually has), search for it and add to that thread. And there is no need for anyone to run out of new things to discuss about Tolkien.

[Kuruharan]

I merely suggest putting some things into it. It seems largely neglected, and perhaps what we really need are some more predictable guidelines of what is archived and when.

That way searching for an old thread is easier, and it would be a simple matter for a neophyte poster to see what had been recently discussed, without being squelched on the basis of a six-year-old discussion.

Of course, the problem is getting people to use the resource once it is made available. I'm not entirely sure what could be done in that regard. I'm not sure an annoucement would completely have the desired effect. For one thing, it is an inherent quality of Sticked threads across the Internet that the "Sticky" tag has a magical ability to flip the "Ignore" switch in peoples' brains. I freely admit that I do that sometimes, and sadly I can't come up with a rational explanation as to why...it just sort of happens...

But all that being said, probably the best way would be a dedicated campaign of patient encouragement of its use.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

It would be a drastic measure, but why not create a fourth discussion board, for us 'Wizard Pupils'?

I like this idea; I would also propose that in this particular subforum any book thread can be started here, even if it's not a new one, and that refferences to other threads shoud be discouraged.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I like this idea; I would also propose that in this particular subforum any book thread can be started here, even if it's not a new one, and that refferences to other threads shoud be discouraged.

Aren't you afraid that such a subforum would rather resemble the kid's table at Thanksgiving??

"Oh look, it's little Noobie. He's not quite ready to sit with the adults is he? Go sit at the other table little boy, and you can listen to us talk. Someday you may be able to join us! Oh, what's that you're asking? No dear, don't worry, nobody will make you think about things that are too big and tricky for your little brain. And what's that? Oh no no, bless your little heart, no -- if you are having a conversation that we at the grown up table have had before we won't try and talk to you ourselves! We'll let you have your little fun while we smile at your simple little heart. Bless you, now run along!"

I, for one, hate sitting at the kid's table. Even when I was a kid. I would hate to make it seem like we were asking peopel to do that now.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I, for one, hate sitting at the kid's table. Even when I was a kid. I would hate to make it seem like we were asking peopel to do that now.

Ditto. Having extra seats at the adults' table was the best thing ever.

Anyway, don't we have a "Novices and Newcomers" forum for those sorts of things?

[Child of the 7th Age]

There is also another issue. It is frowned upon, and with good reason, to open up a thread discussing issues that have been talked about already. But I’ve seen a few (and mind you, you can probably count them with the fingers of your hand) good looking new threads that were quickly referred to an old, existing, dead thread and died as well. I am not implying that we should open a new thread for every little idea that pops up in our collective minds, but…

I wanted to reply quickly to this one point in Farael's original post, even though the discussion is now addressing many other topics and ideas.

There actually is no policy that says a poster can not put up a new thread on any topic he or she wants, even when an older thread exists. When I first came to the Downs, the reverse was true. If a person put up a new thread on an already existing topic, then the new thread was closed down and they were directed to the older thread. A few years ago, the Barrow-wight changed his policy on that to encourage further discussions on topics. The only exception is if the new thread is an exact duplicate of another that people are actively posting on. Then the later one would be closed.

So feel free to put up new threads on topics of interest or, alternately, to bring up an older thread and continue posting on it. Either way works. You definitely don't have to wait until a thread is "archived" to post another thread on that same general topic.

I think the reason this misconception exists is that helpful posters, mod and non-mod alike, often put in a link to an older post on a similar topic if one exists. Perhaps that "kills" the discussion even though it's not intended to.

One other comment.... One of my concerns is actually not the Books forum but Novices and Newcomers. I can remember when I first came to the Downs that there were some pretty spirited discussions in that forum. In fact, I've never fully understood what's the precise distinction between topics in Books and N&N. There are some opinion questions that don't belong in Books, but some N & N posts definitely address more concrete book questions and can generate discussion. I do remember being hesitent to post in Books at first because I felt I didn't "know enough". N & N was a way for me to get my feet wet and feel comfortable with posting.

More recently, N & N is not used very much. I suspect the shift came about when Mirth became a more important forum. The old discussions in Novices and Newcomers kind of wilted away. Rather than starting a "new" forum, couldn't we try to do move with Novices and Newcomers in terms of lively book discussions, but ones where you don't have to prepare yourself by reading ten journal articles and doing five drafts of your post?

P.S. Great minds think alike....I've just cross posted with Formendacil who said the same thing in a lot fewer words.

[Boromir88]

I, for one, hate sitting at the kid's table. Even when I was a kid. I would hate to make it seem like we were asking peopel to do that now.~Fordim

And it would further widen the rift that has seemingly popped up.

Jenny, I can see where the feeling of 'casting aside' comes if you are directed to another thread. Sort of like, 'Here, that's the discussion go there if you want.' In the past this might be something that happened, but there wouldn't be any harm if we start doing things differently now.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Boromir,

Since you can start a new thread on any substantive topic, whether or not it's been addressed before, do you think this would still be a problem?

A poster could put it up in Books or N&N, whatever they felt more comfortable doing.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Ditto. Having extra seats at the adults' table was the best thing ever.

Anyway, don't we have a "Novices and Newcomers" forum for those sorts of things?

Originally Posted by Fordim

I, for one, hate sitting at the kid's table. Even when I was a kid. I would hate to make it seem like we were asking peopel to do that now.

Yes, and having been a teacher, never patronise a youngster by sending them off to do something 'suitable for their age'. Because you can bet it won't be. The same will go for someone who doesn't feel like they know all that much.

Links to other threads is in some cases possibly that someone is being idle and either cannot or just cannot be bothered to re-type all the info they or someone else posted before. I've done it many a time. Or it could just be them being helpful. But I think the problem is some people feel afraid of posting which is very different. Esty was always very encouraging in the CbC threads and I remember giving new people a nod there if they had made the effort to get involved because I remembered feeling left out myself.

[Farael]

I was rather worried this thread would get the axe... and even if not, I was so tired yesterday (and still very much so today) that I worried I'd make little sense. But I'm encouraged by the answers so far. Here's what I want to comment on for the most part.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I had an old signature about steps to take to make yourself look smarter than you truly are.

1) Only talk about the stuff you know
2) Admit it when you make a mistake
3) Agree with me

Ok. so #3's a joke (or is it?) but 1 and 2 I still try to stick to as much as possible.

Now, I have no problem with #2, and obviously, #3 is right... Boromir IS after all our chosen leader ... *ahem* but about #1, and tying in to what Jenny said...

Knowledge can be very much a matter of comparison. For example, I know more about Genetics than the average Joe (unless he happens to be a Biochem major too) but then I don't know nearly as much as a Geneticist. So how do I know if I trully know about the topic I want to post on? why, I read what has been said before.... and so it happens that there have been three posts. A long, well written and thought out opening post, an interesting and thought-provoking second post and a dissertation-like, full of quotes and references to a plethora of different works, post. Then it sinks in... All I know is that I know NOTHING (comparatively speaking)

I think that's what Jenny meant to say when she said some of the posters were "intimidating". Obviously, I'm not actually afraid of running into SPM (unless he's a werewolf. SPM is a dangerous werewolf ) but when he takes the time to make a long, thought out post it just happens that I get the feeling I'm in way over my head.

Having said that, I disagree that we should have another section for "intermediate" members. That'd be effectively the death of the Books forum. I don't think I'm a big time contributor, but some of the ones who voiced their agreement (and Macalure himself) are valuable and relatively frequent posters on the Books forum. Take that away and instead of reviving the discussion there, we are limiting it to.... well, with all due respect, the intimidating ramblings of the oldies.

Also, it may accentuate, rather than diminish, the feeling of "inadequacy" that some of us feel when compared to some older, perhaps more "experienced" in literary discussions, posters. Would the 'downs become a system of castes, where you come in as a meagre newbie, and you are discouraged to discuss things anywhere but at the NN forum, then you prove your worth and graduate to the mid-level subforum until only a few lucky chosen ones make it to THE Books forum?

I agree that, ideally, we can all look for the other times our idea has been discussed and re-open the thread, but that system is not really working, is it? Again, I'm not vouching for a cluttering of the 'downs, but rather trying to suggest some ideas of what may revive the discussions a little.

Just to show you what I mean... Pick your favourite character, thing or what ever of Tolkien's work and run it through the "Search" function.

If you come up with anything less than 50 topics you should feel fortunate. Of the 50, 40 can be discared as they probably have the words you were looking for but they have nothing to do with your idea. I.e: "Aragorn's sword, Narsil" may very well be in Crazy Captions.

Of the 10 remaining, 5 are rather short, you quickly look through them and see that they are not what you were looking for. The other 5 are much longer, you broze through them and it doesn't look like it's the same thing either.

You go ahead, post and someone answers with a link to one of those 5 longer threads. Yeah, the first post it's not the same thing you were proposing, but down on page 3, post 115 the discussion shifts a little and it resembles your idea quite a bit.

It's still not your idea, but what are you going to do about it?

So keep in mind, I'm NOT encouraging opening the same thread as before, if that's the case it should be referred and closed/merged with the other, but if it is not qutie the same thing, why not let it go and see where it ends up?

Edit:Cross-posted with half the active members of the 'downs

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

One other comment.... One of my concerns is actually not the Books forum but Novices and Newcomers. I can remember when I first came to the Downs that there were some pretty spirited discussions in that forum. In fact, I've never fully understood what's the precise distinction between topics in Books and N&N. There are some opinion questions that don't belong in Books, but some N & N posts definitely address more concrete book questions and can generate discussion. I do remember being hesitent to post in Books at first because I felt I didn't "know enough". N & N was a way for me to get my feet wet and feel comfortable with posting.

That obviously was far before my time. In the half year I'm here, I associated 'Novices and Newcomers' mainly with greeting new members, assigning things to Mordor and discussing topics of a lower level.

More recently, N & N is not used very much. I suspect the shift came about when Mirth became a more important forum. The old discussions in Novices and Newcomers kind of wilted away. Rather than starting a "new" forum, couldn't we try to do move with Novices and Newcomers in terms of lively book discussions, but ones where you don't have to prepare yourself by reading ten journal articles and doing five drafts of your post?

The new forum was just an idea. It's purpose was definitely not to create a kid's table, but to have a forum that was between the mighty 'Books' and 'N&N -the way I saw it', where you can discuss Tolkien on an intermediate level, just like Child describes it. I didn't mean to forbid a thread to stray from the level it maybe was intended to be, up or down. I mean, we often see a thread start with a more or less stupid question, and then suddenly it turns into a scholar debate of several pages. I hoped this could give the Books a spark, even though it's maybe not actually posted in there (I don't think it's important where the interesting discussion take place, as long as they do). I had nothing remotely like a caste system in mind.
A revival of N&N would fix my concern perfectly. Would it be a first step to move the 'Assign to..'-threads to the 'The Barrowdowns'-forum? They do discuss neither dragons, nor wizards, nor hobbits after all.


Of course people who post links to old threads only intend to be helpful, and they are. However, sometimes, not always, but especially when there are several of these links at the beginning of a thread, it creates a feeling of "Now please read through all these threads before you dare to post your uninformed opinion on this new one!": Death of thread almost inevitable. This is of course unintended, but, well... it's a difficult matter...

[JennyHallu]

In my opinion, if you don't want to take the time to re-type your old, tired opinion again, but merely link to it, then why do you feel you must participate in a new thread? Links to old threads DO kill the new ones. Unless the link is to concrete and unassailable FACTS that were offered in a previous post (and if so, the link should be to that post, not the thread where it can be found) I feel they're inappropriate.

And I do feel that more threads should be archived. Look in the archive forum: the Barrow-Wight has created an excellent index, which I think makes it much easier to find exactly what you're looking for. I think threads should be archived, and all in the same place. The RPG archives serve only a specific purpose, and it makes sense that they be separate, but why is there a Books archive and Haudh-en-Ndengin?

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that's what Jenny meant to say when she said some of the posters were "intimidating". Obviously, I'm not actually afraid of running into SPM (unless he's a werewolf. SPM is a dangerous werewolf ) but when he takes the time to make a long, thought out post it just happens that I get the feeling I'm in way over my head.

Hehe. I suspect that the only thing that is intimidating about my posts is their length.

My first post here was in a thread which I created asking why the Eagles were not used to convey the Ring to Mordor. I was directed to some previous discussions, read them and summarised my findings. Hey, I'm a loyer, what do you expect? The thread, I believe, proceeded no further.

I have never read any of the HoME series. I started the first book and, I am afraid to admit, lost interest.

I had read LotR only about three times, and only once in about 20 years, when I started posting. I had never read the Silmarillion (tried it when I was 14 but gave up about halfway through the first chapter), although I have read it since - once.

A large part of my Tolkien knowledge is derived from having read posts here over the 4 years or so that I have been here, and also from being an avid participator in the Quiz forums for about 2-3 years of that time.

All of which is meant to say - if you do not feel sufficiently confident in your book knowledge to participate in Books discussions, then read. Read the books themselves obviously (I probably would have never read the Silm had I not come here - I'm very glad that I did). But also read the existing threads. This is a place to learn from as well as for expressing your own thoughts, views and opinions. Read those old threads. Read those threads that are linked to. You will not just learn about Tolkien, but a whole range of other stuff discussed incidentally to his works along the way. You will see different styles of debate, different ways of constructing an argument. And you will learn the dark art of verbosity too, if you read my posts.

I am afraid that I am one of those who sometimes posts links to old threads in new topics. I apologise if that is off-putting. It is natural to want to do so, I find, when one recalls a discussion and some interesting points which were made which might be relevant to the new discussion and of interest to those involved in it. That doesn't mean that the topics are the same, or have been approached in the same way, and it should not be taken as a direction to read the old thread(s) before proceeding with the new discussion. That is not the intention. Not mine, at least.

I am against segregation of topics by experience or knowledge or whatever. These things cannot be measured and, just because one person is less well-read or less familiar with a particular subject, it does not follow that they cannot add value to the discussion.

The Books forum is a big forum. There is room there for all kinds of discussions there. They do not all have to require a degree from the University of Tolkien to participate. Far from it. Yes, it is a place for serious discussion. And, yes, there are some very serious dicussions which draw upon a wide range of Tolkien (biographical and academic) resources. But there is also room for discussion of more "factual" matters, relating to specific events or characters, for which a good working knowledge of the relevant book should suffice. And there is room for a whole lot of other Tolkien-related discussion too.

No one should be afraid to start threads there, post on threads there which take their fancy and, perhaps most importantly, read threads there (especially if you do not quite feel ready to participate). And, if you feel intimidated by a thread, or feel that it is not for you, look around for another, perhaps even one of those old, dusty threads. Tolkien-related discussion should not be exclusive, not to anyone who is seriously interested in his works and in discussing them. If you get something wrong, what does it matter? We have all done that. Just learn from it and step back in.

As for starting new threads, I would endorse what Child said. Save in the limited circumstances she describes, new threads on subjects that have been discussed before will not be closed down. Threads can be merged here, and sometimes there are, but rarely in the Books forum I believe.

As for the Novices & Newcomers forum, in addition to the kinds of thread already mentioned, I have always understood it to be a place for less serious, more "trivial" discussion (and I do not mean that in a demeaning way). Threads such as: "Who is your favourite Elf?" and the like. Not everyone enjoys those kinds of discussion, but many do (and they can be quite a good way for newcomers to ease themselves into the Downs).

Did I mention that I am verbose ...

[Durelin]

I'd just like to note that, pretty much the only reason I don't spend too much time in "The Books" is because I often have a headache, and trying to discuss intelligently is just beyond me.

Really, I think that it has mostly to do with just how much time and energy people have, and often they don't have quite enough to participate in "The Books," particularly when, as Saucepan Man has pointed out about his posts, the posts are often very very long.

And there's also just so much to do on the 'Downs! If people find themselves bored just staring at it, they really should join a RPG or something...

[mormegil]

Jenny I have to say that it is silly that you are intimidated by many of the book threads...with that being said I also am intimidated. So yes, I am silly too. Often times I feel rather unsubstantial and not constructive to the current arguement. I have found myself, more than once, drafting up a post only to delete the whole thing and never post it due to my feelings. I'm often worried about my grammar and language. Sometimes I fail to understand some of the subtle points that are made. In fact I consider myself to be one of the least intelligent regulars on the downs.

So I propose a deal be made: You, I, and any other who feel intimidated about posting on the books begin to do so and ignore our trepidation. Those who are the old timers and Tolkien scholars be patient with us, I feel that you are but it's reassuring to emphasize the point.

I feel that sometimes my points are valid and well taken, other times I feel that I have good points but I'm not articulate like so many other here. So I pledge I will try harder and do better.

[Valier]

I too have felt a little intimidated by the book threads. I have always wanted to post but can never find the right words to express myself without sounding like a noob. I swear if other will try too and promise to bear with me when my points are not quite clear, I will make an effort to really put some thought into some more bookish threads.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes, Valier, I hope you will post. You would benfit and so would the rest of us by getting your ideas. But you're not the only one who needs to remind themselves. I'm often in the same situation.

Plus, Durelin has a good point. Book posts are not only a matter of willingness and knowlege but also of the time available to each poster. Since my first commitment is to RPGs and my second commitment is to making sure my family doesn't starve or go without clean socks , that unfortunately leaves less time for Book posts. Still, it's good to be reminded how important it is to post in Books.

I also remember when I first came to the BD, I was a little cowed by the Books forum, even though I had been reading Tolkien for many years. I picked my spots to post with care. I knew more about hobbits than any other topic so I would post on those threads and pass over anything that had to do with Silm or HoMe. I guess that would be my main advice for someone who'd like to do more in Books but who still feels a little out of place. Everyone tends to have certain topics near and dear to their hearts. Search out those questions or even post one yourself, and then dig in. I honestly think that, with only a handful of exceptions, many posters--even so-called "old timers"--had some trepidations about posting in Books when they first joined the site. Believe me, you're not alone. I can still be overawed by the back and forth of those folk who have training and expertise in literary criticism. But the only way to get over that hesitation is to start posting.

I also think the chapter by chapter discussions are a great way to learn to do a "serious" post. Some of the best posts there are people giving their personal impression of the material they've read. At the same time, you can keep reading and gradually ease into more rigorous debate.

[Thinlómien]

I would class myself as a "intermediate member" by knowledge, yet I see no point in an intermediate forum. I have even started a few threads in the books (yet some of them would have belonged to the N&N perhaps) and never have been afraid of posting on the forum even with my knowledge that is lesser than many other members'. The books does not contain only the topics like "Lord of the Bible" it also has those "medicore" threads, which I would classifyb for example the "LotrR labelled racist" -thread, "Do ents lay eggs" (which coukld be classified as a novice thread) and such. The Books is not some scary forum where only the most knowledgeable debate on thgeir high seats.

One reason I feel the books is slowing down is also that even if people start topics, there is not enough people interested about the subject who wish to comment and the threads die out.

I forgot the third thing I wanted to say. well, i'll get back when I remember it...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Behold my first Books post. It's also my first thread.

It's not very impressive, is it? Hardly what you'd call 'intimidating'. The people I found intimidating at the time were those who knew more than I did, which included practically everyone. At one point Sharku cowed me just by posting an extract from a dictionary, which I took to show a preternatural knowledge of etymology. Ridiculous, isn't it? Most of what I know about Tolkien I've learned either from members here or from books that they mentioned or recommended, and I still couldn't keep up with people like obloquy and Saulotus if they were active.

The language in books doesn't have to be academic. A lot of the more knowledgeable members happen to feel more comfortable in a scholarly idiom, either by training or because their professions require them to write formal English. It doesn't mean that nobody wants to see a more relaxed style, it's just that in some of the discussions precision of expression is very important, and I at least find it hard to be informal and precise at the same time. The important thing in Books is that the thinking should go deeper and be based on more knowledge than it has to be in N&N. If you've got a really interesting point, nobody will care about split infinitives or dangling prepositions: it's the quality of the ideas that counts.

Most importantly, we've all been new. Everyone has to make a first post and everyone has had to get used to posting on the forum. More to the point, everyone is a little intimidated by the challenge of Books because it's a demanding forum. It always has been for as long as I've been a member. If you can rise to the challenge it's a very rewarding place to post, and if you can't then nobody wants to stop you reading it. It's certainly cheaper than buying the mass of additional Tolkien literature that's out there. When I first arrived I didn't think I could make a valuable contribution, but to my amazement there were those who disagreed. You never know what the reaction will be until you try, unless of course your shiny new thread is 'who's the best dwarf?' but you know about that already.

I know I've been absent for a long time, but even back when I was here every day I didn't post on every Books thread. There have always been those subjects on which I can't comment, but fortunately there's usually someone who can. If you pick your ground as Child suggested you can ease yourself into the discussions and your knowledge will catch up. I spend a lot of time tracking down quotations, and it can be fun. Sometimes I forget all about the post and instead get caught up in a passage I'd only looked up to check my facts. That's one of the things that only happens to me when I join in on Books.

What I'm trying to say is give Books a try. The worst that can happen is that your post embarrasses you much later on, as that one of mine above does whenever I read it.

[Holbytlass]

I, too, feel that I don't have enough to participate. But I do feel like I have come a long way. It took me over 2 years to realize that people want to debate and talk about their differing opinions-I used to be one of those posters that said "everyone does things differently, can't we get along". I'm pretty sure I have one of those posts in Fordim's Canonicity thread. -at myself.

Even though I do feel like I'm in over my head I like reading more experienced posters, it makes me think. I shall have to try Fea's ideas of asking questions.
I don't want the tables to be turned and make those who are more informed or make longer posts feel like they have to walk on eggshells and worry if they are upsetting, degrading, or insulting to posters only because they happen to know more. I don't want them to stop posting.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Child

I guess that would be my main advice for someone who'd like to do more in Books but who still feels a little out of place. Everyone tends to have certain topics near and dear to their hearts. Search out those questions or even post one yourself, and then dig in.

Yes, exactly!

I think people want to post in the Books so badly that they try to force things. Sometimes when people think they are "intimidated", the actual root of the problem is that the topic simply isn't one they'd like to discuss. And let me tell you, you are rarely going to feel adequate when focusing on something you don't care much about. Arguments and points have a tendency to just slide right over your head, not because you are dumb, but because you're not that tuned in to the topic.

Just look for a thread that has an opening post that interests you. If you don't like what you're reading, then move on. Don't sit and dwell on it, or try and think of how you can post on the thread.

Originally Posted by Fea

Think of those 'intimidating' folks. Have you ever interacted with them outside of Books? Bet they weren't so scary when you played Werewolf with them, were they?

Speak for yourself, Fea- I'm absolutely terrifying when I play Werewolf.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I don't think I've ever felt intimidated by the more knowledgeable Downers. Revere them? Perhaps. Respect them? Definitely. I don't think I ever felt intimidated. Even in my early days when I was a blundering spotty little 16 year old with only a basic knowledge of Tolkien, the more learned members seemed like something to aspire to, rather than to fear.

These days I, admittedly, spend most of my time in the mirth forums. I do occasionally wander into Books to add a point, say something I think is interesting or to point something out that I've noticed. All in the hope of stirring up further discussion.

Weather or not I succeed is a different matter...

[mormegil]

I saw this today and found it appropriate and funny.

[IMG][/IMG]

Not that this is a reflection of the downs but it's still funny.

[Boromir88]

Since you can start a new thread on any substantive topic, whether or not it's been addressed before, do you think this would still be a problem?~Child

I was echoing Fordim's concerns about creating a new forum as in appearing like a 'kiddy table...' and further increasing the feeling of 'intimidation.' What you've brought up about N & N forum is definitely a good point. I forgot the purpose of that forum, as it's mainly seemed to just be a place of introductions and answering the easy questions...not a place to have the 'great depth of search' as the books. But as I look back at some of my earliest posts and threads, most of them were in N & N and had sparked some solid discussions. Getting back to that in the Newcomer's forum would certainly be good.

I also think that there is this conception that in the books you have to post these long thought out humorgous posts in order to get noticed. I disagree, a perfect example I think happened recently with Laitoste's post, in this thread. A short, sweet post, yet got right to the heart of the matter and spurned some discussion. Your posts don't have to be long and drawn out, mine tend to be because I ramble and sort of 'build up' the post, instead of striking right out the heart and getting right into it. So, don't be scared to post something that's comparitvely much shorter in length, if it answers the topic, gets some questions to spark a discussion...then by all means post it.