WW XXXIX - Do Werebalrogs have wings?

[Thinlómien]

"Maeglin..." a sweet voice called in the darkness.
"Is it you, my love? Have you come to see me again, Idril?" Maeglin (better known as Volo) asked.
"Of course it's me. Come here."
Hearing his beloved's call, Volo hastened towards the voice. "It was dangerous for you to come to see me", he rebuked his lover who remained unseen in the shadows.
"Incorrect. It was dangerous for you to come to see me. Fatal, even", the voice said, not so sweet anymore. Volo blinked his eyes and instead of his sweet Idril, he saw three balrogs before him.
"Will you come to have a night flight, darling?" the Balrog with Swing mocked and all the three balrogs burst laughing.

The Balrog who Sings picked Volo up and the balrogs did fly (NOTE: whether I mean some kind of floating with wings or escaping, you readers may decide according to your beliefs) out of the cave by a secret route. They started circling around the three-peaked mountain.

"Isn't it a beautiful night?" the Balrog with Swing asked in a pretty voice.
Before Volo could reply, the Balrog with Bling cut in: "Do balrogs have wings?"
"You seem to have", Volo replied, feeling a bit safer.
"Oh, a pity, I'm going to drop you anyway", the Balrog who Sings said and let go of Volo. Screaming, he fell to the abyss. The Balrog who Sings started singing:

"When there's a smile in your heart
There's no better time to start
It's a very simple plan
You can do what the birdies can
At least it's worth a try

You can fly! You can fly!
You can fly! You can fly!"

But unfortunately Volo couldn't fly and his body smote the mountainside thrice before it could not be seen any longer. The balrogs left the crime scene, still whistling the merry tune.

~*~

"Idril, my love, what are you doing here?" Tuor asked when he found her kneeling by the great chasm and weeping.
"Go away", she said.
"What's wrong, my love?", Tuor asked, baffled and tried to embrace her.
"I said go away!" Idril shouted, rebuffing him, "Maeglin is dead. I saw them take him and cast him to the chasm."
"Maeglin? I'm sorry, love. But you never really liked him, did you?"
"You blind fool. I loved him. At least as much as I ever loved you."
"You treacherous liar! He was your cousin! That's disgusting!" he roared. "Sika!" he cursed in the ancient language of men. "You never actually loved me, did you? You loved him all these years. Everything there was between us was merely a fraud. I don't know what I'm doing here anymore. I'm going. You said 'go away' and I'll take that advice. Maybe I'll go to the place where only Men can go, you may follow your beloved Maeglin to Mandos." He turned to leave, but Idril fell on his neck, weeping.
"Please! Forgive me! I'm just a weak woman whose heart has been torn into two parts! And if you were to abandon me or die, it would be my end also."
Tuor looked into her eyes and saw but grief and honesty in there.
"Forgive me", she whispered.
"Nothing can come between us anymore."

~*~

When the Day dawned, the miners couldn't find Volo anywhere. There were no signs of fighting in the place where Volo had been sleeping – all Volo’s things were in their places, his bed looked unslept. On a flat rock were the remnants of a single candle that had seemingly gone out during the night.
“Looks almost like he has decided to leave willingly.”
“Did he know of some secret pathway out?”
“But why would he have left without us?”
“Or left all his things here? He has taken nothing with him.”

“Hey, what’s this?”
“Has he been baking something, eh?”

Volo’s little black notebook was lying on the rock, opened. On the page was a recipe written with clear handwriting:

The best cobbler ever

Take one Eöl & one Aredhel and blend them. Brood in a dark forest until ready.

The villagers looked at each other and knew that wherever Volo was now, he was the cobbler.

~*~

Dead
Thinlómien (mod) - killed by a wingless balrog on Night1
Rikae (ordo) - ate too many cobblers on Day1
Volo (Maeglin the Cobbler Lover) - dropped by a winged balrog on Night2

Living
Brinniel
Gil-Galad
Kath
Legate of Amon Lanc
Lhunardawen
Macalaure
Mithalwen
Naria
Nerwen
Nogrod
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin
The Might


Day2 begins. Feel free to discuss, dear citizens.

[Nogrod]

Even if it's bad for our numbers I'm somewhat happy that we lost the cobbler. After all it was the best possible outcome after the possibility of the ranger denying the kill (or the hunter taking one of them with her/him).

So it's a triangle-story then and the third part only dies after both her lovers are dead or something... but as someone (Lhuna?) said already yesterDay we probably shouldn't bother our minds too much with this lover thing unless something dramatic is revealed.

That's because we still have all the three balrogs around with us. It would be a fine Day to start picking them up. So let's do it toDay.

[Kath]

Just popping in quickly. I'm off out in about 5 minutes so ...

The Cobbler is dead and that's good. Extra lovers is not so good. Still, on this one I do agree with Noggie, it's the Balrogs we need to concentrate on. We actually got lucky last Night, they took out someone that would have been harmful to us, but we can hardly rely on that happening again!

I will be back later toDay to add more.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm. That was... interesting. Seems that the word "cobbler" is following us everywhere. In fact, yes, losing a cobbler is a good thing. However, as Nogrod said, I don't quite understand the love triangle that seems to be unfolded here. But yes, let's leave it at that - seems that this should not concern us much, at least now it seems that there is no need to.

Now, however the balrogs killed one of their helpers, they probably had some reason to choose Volo. Personally, I saw him quite innocent yesterDay, but still quiet enough not to leave much tracks. Which is just what I fear. I'm going to check his posts if there can be anything that could lead us to someone, but... well, let's see.

EDIT: x-ed with Kath.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Now, however the balrogs killed one of their helpers, they probably had some reason to choose Volo. Personally, I saw him quite innocent yesterDay, but still quiet enough not to leave much tracks. Which is just what I fear. I'm going to check his posts if there can be anything that could lead us to someone, but... well, let's see.

Good. I'm doing a little analysis on the votes, their timing (and reasons for that timing) and the reasons given to them. Let's see if we can find anything interesting from there.

[The Might]

Well, I must admit I feel I've been wrong about my last vote. I actually doubt Nogrod is a bad guy right now, just kinda feeling that. Yes, know it sounds somewhat stupid to change my mind so fast, but I hope I won't be wrong about this.
Nor do I think that Legate is bad. Looking through their past posts it doesn't seem there is any planning happening.
Hmmm...not sure what to believe of many others, hopefully with more posts from others I'll be able to make my mind.

[Macalaure]

They killed the cobbler? Has it ever happened before that the wolves took their cobbler down?

And why am I not surprised that a cobbler lover was a part of this game.

No time to gloat, though, while the three chief baddies are still around.


This post is somewhat defensive, I know, but I want it out of the way.

There's the issue about talking about giftedness. In my opinion, talking about whether somebody is not gifted and talking about whether somebody is gifted is equally bad. All I wanted to say yesterday was that Rikae could be gifted just like anybody else could be, not any more - after Nogrod and Volo claimed she probably isn't. The idea of reverse psychology (suspecting Rikae of giftedness and saying she is not gifted so that the balrogs won't take her) didn't occur to me then, to be honest.

Originally Posted by Legate

I indeed understood Volo's words as "Don't kill her at night", as he put it later, and there are things that a gentleman just does not speak about - that is, like playing with the idea that she's a gifted. Which was started by Mac, not Volo, from my point of view - if I thought that Rikae could be a gifted, I'd say exactly what Volo did.

Ok, the reverse psychology part I now understand. But I still don't get what you're talking about. Neither Volo nor I started it, but Nogrod. The fact that Volo was the cobbler and wanted to confuse us makes this statement look a little bad.

Originally Posted by Legate

But that reaction had sort of negative-tone against those who commented around her.

Care to explain?


Back soon - with interesting stuff, hopefully.

[Nogrod]

Okay. Here's for the freaks of this game: the facts (I have tried to pick up the relevant quotes but feel free to disagree and we can see whether I missed some important arguments). Some thoughts on these to follow later...

11PM Rikae -> Rikae (pops in and votes)

She has played ten games over the past year and has never been lynched - I say it's her turn. Besides, she is evil: she smashed my finger in a car door once. Oh, that's anachronistic - make it a van. She also is acting erratic and bizarre, which is clearly a sign of Balroggery.

1PM Kath -> Nogrod (the only chance to be online)

I'm tempted to try and kill him off already just to keep the number of pages down! Has posted nothing while posting a lot. Keeps calling for people to talk which, yeah, great, but we know that and after the third post asking for chat you don't really need to do it again. Plus, that post that concluded everyone he'd looked at was a possible balrog? I don't know, maybe it's just his playing style this game, but it's making me suspicious.

4.45PM Brinn -> Rikae (goes to class not sure whether able to come back)

I really doubt Rikae is a gifted; why would she want to confuse the village when she is so important to them?
I'm not entirely confident, but she is the most suspicious right now. If we wait until Day 2, a balrog Rikae could come back and say she did it because she didn't have time and didn't have any suspects, sounding entirely innocent all of sudden. I'm not sure I want to risk that.

5.15PM Gil -> Rikae (In a hurry and far away from a computer)

if Rikae really wants to commit suicide then sure for nobody else has any sufficent misgivings towards them.
Oh and Brinniel is on my list not for voting Rikae but for taking advantage of that if Rikae indeed turns to be an innocent, then Brinniel can play off that again...

5.40PM Volo -> Rikae (an hour and a half to the deadline, didn’t appear after the vote)

What is that all about, Rikae?? If you have a role that leads you to victory by being lynched the first, I think you'll achieve your goal. Really, what was that about??

5.46PM The Might -> Nogrod (popped in to vote with this explanation)

Well, it seems that except Rikae's strange decision nothing else happened that could really make you think someone is a balrog or not. So I must admit, making the vote isn't easy, but I'll just follow my Gondolindrim instinct and vote

6.12PM Nerwen -> Rikae (popped in to vote...)

Look, Rikae, I wasn't going to do anything until you'd had a chance to speak for yourself. Now that you have... I've really very little idea what you are or what you're trying to achieve.
You're certainly not making any effort to get your neck out of the noose. Either you're treating the whole thing as a joke, or you think you're done for anyway so there's no point resisting, or you really are deliberately trying to get lynched.
I can't say that you or anyone else has done anything that definitely says "balrog" to me– but time is running out. In the absence of a better candidate–

6.55PM Mith -> Nogrod (partook the final discussion and stayed to the end)

I really don't like Nogrod using me as his human shield and trying to create an illusion mass of suspicion about me when there has been very little save his. Attack the best form of defence methinks... And he is doing that pseudo helpful thing... .my guess is he could well be a gung-ho wolf becaus of his possible major absence later in the game.
Rikae is a very bold player ..... so bold I wonder if there isn't something special going on - we have not had full disclosure ..so if it is her or you Nogrod,it will be you...
Well to late to get a swing vote for Gil so

6.57PM Legate -> Rikae (partook the final discussion and stayed to the end)

Nevertheless, Rikae's behavior is still very strange (her answer is not an answer at all), so it just looks that she's a cobbler or whatever kind of madness. So probably I'm going to vote for her - with hope that we get rid of a cobbler by this.
One more thing concerning Rikae, or another reason to vote her. I am a little bit afraid that if she remains an enigma and remains alive, or even worse, if she's a cobbler and remains alive, she will only make the situation troublesome as she will spread our forces, so to say. We will still have this "What is she? Is she a cobbler?" back in our minds, and we'll spend a large part of discussion about that. Of course getting a balrog on the first day would be nice, and I am somewhat reluctant to think that she is one, but if she is a cobbler, then on the first day, it's in fact still quite a success, or at least small compensation for not catching a balrog.
But unfortunately, it looks now that the state of the village is that questions about you won't give us rest until you are dead, if I say it very nastily.
So it's her or Nogrod definitively? It's clearer then...

6.59PM Macalaure -> Nogrod (popped in to vote with a list of suspicion)

Nogrod is an option, but lynching Nogrod on Day One with little evidence? But Gil is a shot into the dark...
But then, there's no real option anymore but Rikae and Nogrod.

6.59PM Nogrod -> Rikae (partook the final discussion and stayed to the end)

That's so sad it lead to this as I don't think she is a balrog (a cobbler possibly but probably not even that).

PS. some of the quotes are gathered from a few different posts and some are from a single post... basically the vote post then.

PS.2. The times are GMT

[Nogrod]

Btw. if I needed to vote right now I might go for Macalaure indeed.

Look at his last post yesterDay posted one minute before the deadline.

Now he clearly had
a) time to think
b) time to type
what he did. A full list of suspicions in different categories.

So why did he use his precious time to post a list instead of taking part in the discussion and trying to make any points he might have had for the good of the village?

I once caught a wolf-Morm from this very same behaviour. Because it didn't matter to him who was lynched as he knew both of the candidates were innocents! So as he was not actually concerned as we were on the last minutes he thought it better to clean his image by trying to look helpfulf and make a list - because he was not worried about the outcome!

A slight blunder then, a lapse on the concentration it was or something you didn't come to think?

It could be added that his first post toDay doesn't look too sincere either. It's not a problem if someone sees he needs to defend himself from suspicion. But to underline the fact that one's post is a defencive one looks a bit overdoing it. I mean a baddie thinks about these things all the time and wonders how his posts look in the eyes of the others. So they become easily oversensitive and feel the need to explain and back themselves up. I know it from experience...

Also I had I slowly growing bad feelings about Mac already yesterDay. I need to go back to them later toDay to see whether there is something more than just bad feelings.

Back to looking at the votes...

[satansaloser2005]

First of all, what fortune for us to have the cobbler killed last night. I think that finding the hairy killers will be much easier with their little friend out of the way. Second of all, who perhaps looks the hairiest and balrogiest among us? As of yet I have no solid grasp on the identities of the hairy little beasts, although plenty of discussion has been thrown out by Nogrod in particular. Not to imply necessarily that he is a murderer in need of a shave, only that he's giving us a plethera of information which leads to no set conclusion, excluding his last post, which does require consideration. Further observation is needed before I cast my vote to end the life of ANY villager, be they miner or balrog, as I believe we must present a united front against our furry foes.



p.s. I may not be able to vote tomorrow! i have a class until almost 3pm CT so i may try to sneak out in the middle and go down to the library to check things out so i don't miss the deadline

[The Might]

Interesting idea Nogrod and the argument you make is quite convincing, I must admit.
Not so sure about the defensive part though, but then again, you're the more experienced player I guess.
Definitely good point, and I am quite interested to see what Mac will answer. Seems something does start to happen in here after all.

[Nogrod]

Things picked up from the voting yesterDay...

Kath I discussed with length already yesterDay and will not go back to her. See my post #43.

Brinn says:

If we wait until Day 2, a balrog Rikae could come back and say she did it because she didn't have time and didn't have any suspects, sounding entirely innocent all of sudden. I'm not sure I want to risk that.

And if she is a balrog she is telling the truth here. For she knows that if Rikae is alive on Day2 and becomes her sensible and intelligent self it would be hard to lynch her anymore and she might even be witty enough to cause the balrogs some trouble. (I have a few points on Brinn to come but I'll bring them forwards later as I first end up with these votes from yesterDay).

Gil looks like very confused indeed. And it's not the first time. I'm leaning towards his innocence at the moment as it would be astonishingly bold balrog-tactics to draw attention to oneself with such a weird logic.

Nerwen and The Might just popped in to vote and vanished. They didn't say they were in a hurry or otherwise unable to take part in the last deliberations (there were a lots of votes still to cast at the time they voted). So why did they just voted and left? A balrog would like to withdraw from the hot situations of the last minutes so as not to tumble there. So voting about an hour before the deadline and vanishing is the safe way to go.

I said already yesterDay that Mith's one-track mindedness and nervousness brought me back suspecting her towards the end of the Day but I must also say to her honour that she really stood to the end and tried to have an effect which looks more innocent than balrogish to me. So it's hard to say.

Legate sounds sensible and consistent. That would be the most dangerous kind of balroggery there is and I wouldn't put it past him to be able to pull that kind of bluff. But there seems to be a host of better candidates to look after right now.

Mac I already discussed in my last post. Maybe I could add that his speculation with Gil looks pretty odd. With one minute to go there was no real chance to lynch Gil! So why was that speculation there? Maybe he had written that part already earlier (ten minutes, fifteen minutes?) when there still was a chance to gather enough votes to lynch Gil instead of Rikae or myself? Maybe he just felt he needed to add something to the post as not to seem too happy with the choices? Whatever the reason the speculation on Gil looks strange from an innocent miner at that point.

Not voted: Sally (came forwards with apologies), Lhuna and Shasta
Not seen around: Naria

If Naria is not seen toDay she will be modfired so let's leave her to the graces if she doesn't appear.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Sally

only that he's giving us a plethera of information which leads to no set conclusion

I hope you're a bit more satisfied with rthis post even if I can't give you the certain identities of the Balrogs as yet...

[Macalaure]

A few things, mostly about Nogrod. There are some things he said that seem odd.

While I agree with what Kath said about him, I wouldn't automatically conclude it's very suspicious. But he makes a lot of fuss around her suspicion and I think his defence is a little over the top (you mean mine was, too? Maybe, but that doesn't matter )

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You're right in doing that and it's a good viewpoint but you should also note that most of the people do not wish to restate things some others have already pointed out.

I don't understand what his comment has to do with mine.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The silent balrogs seem to have won the Day once again which is a pity indeed.

How do you know the balrogs were silent?


Neither of these gives me a truly suspicious impression, but my overall picture of him is just fuzzy. The way Mith went after Nogrod is strange as well. I'm confused about both of them.


Oh, and I made that list of suspects while skim-reading the thread within a few minutes. I simply copied from the list of players and rearranged the names. The list wasn't meant to look helpful (it didn't even include any comment!), just to help me make up my mind.


I don't have time to look at others closer right now. See you tomorrow.

edit: crossed with Nogrod

[Macalaure]

Well, as I said, I wrote it while skim-reading. And at the end of it, Gil and you ended up being at the top of the list.

[The Might]

After these posts Macalaure seems pretty suspicious.
First he posts, saying that he must quickly leave and has no time to comment on anything else, so it looks to me as if he was kind of in a hurry.
Still, he finds time 5 minutes later to post again in a quite defensive trying to explain why Nogrod and Gil ended up as those he suspected most.

Again, I hope those that have posted less will find time to do that till tomorrow.
See you tomorrow!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay. I didn't have time to go through yesterDay's posts concerning Volo much after all, because in the last two hours some important things just popped at me and I did not have time to do anything else. And I'm going to sleep soon, so nothing much from me now, and what more, I'm not so sure with my toDay's participation at large. What I can say for certain already is that I'm not going to be here for the whole second half of the Day, including DL And this time it's definite, so I am voting probably in the morning.

Now, what I would like to solve primarily:

In reply to Mac:

Originally Posted by Mac

Ok, the reverse psychology part I now understand. But I still don't get what you're talking about. Neither Volo nor I started it, but Nogrod. The fact that Volo was the cobbler and wanted to confuse us makes this statement look a little bad.

Oh, sorry, I forgot mentioning Nogrod. But I did not focus on Nogrod or Volo back then, but you, mainly. What I posted was referring to the moment when I was pondering (while reading the thread) whether Rikae could not be, let's say, a Seer disguising herself. I did not think it's like that, but that was the second possibility (the 10% after the 80% that she's a cobbler).
What you said seemed to me as if you are not speaking about Rikae much, but trying to, in a wolfy-way make it seem that Volo and/or Nogrod are suspicious:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Then there's Nogrod and Volo. I don't like the argument that Rikae is in no way gifted. I don't think we can be entirely sure. The argument also has an aftertaste of "She's not gifted, so when in doubt, we can lynch her without much of a loss." Even though they both denies this, it's in there nevertheless.

The second part of it. To me it seemed like slight way of rising suspicion against them.

Kath. Going through her post of yesterday, it still gives me that feeling of "you are all bad". But if she wrote it in a hurry, it's explainable that she could not write too much. Her post toDay is not helping much to get a clearer picture on her, so hopefully she posts during (my) night so that I have more info in the morning. One thing that puzzles me on her yesterDay's post is this:

Originally Posted by Kath

[Legate] is being a bit pedantic about Rikae though. 9 games is very close to 10. Maybe there was a miscount, or he missed a junior game. It just feels like suspecting for the sake of suspecting.

I did not speak about it yesterDay, so if anyone is still interested in that, with the lynches of Rikae I was mistaken. But she actually was almost lynched, but people retracted and she was killed during the night. But I was a Wolf back then so what mattered to me was that she's dead, you see Anyway, and this is what I wanted to say, I don't see how this should concern us now, and my words about Rikae lying was only a joke. Otherwise I was meditating about her being a cobbler or not. Now I don't see why would Kath mention exactly this, unless she is joking as well, but again, if she is, then why she uses so much space for it in her only post? So if anything, this looks suspicious, or strange at least.

The Might. From his posts, I have the worse and worse feeling. He appears, says to the person who posted before him "I agree with you" and sometimes, as we have seen yesterDay, votes. BUT, given the pattern how he does that, I'm getting the feeling that despite it looks suspicious, it's his style of playing. Or, if not anything better, then at least his adopted style of playing as a balrog. This being his first game we have nothing to compare this with, but I'm willing to leave him without suspecting for now (though I am watching him. In the first game I played, I was a Werewolf and made it to the end partially, I believe, because I was a newbie).

Sally is making me nervous toDay. She was making me feel somewhat unsettled yesterDay, but her funny chatter about hairy balrogs is sort of disturbing. "What's with the haircut?" Too much hair, too little substance, I'd say. But again, as she says she's not going to be around much toDay, I'm putting her away for now.

Mr. Nogrod is actually quite fine, helpful, nice, polite (he provides info even about himself). He's known to do that, but. But there is one but and that is that he can be using the Voice of Saruman-tactics, even on me, trying to rally masses to his cause. For example, picking Mac as suspect when he knows I have suspected him, and making a crusade against him. There is the question what would a Nogrog (or Balrod?) do if Mac was lynched and turned innocent. Of course, there would be the possiblity that they are both balrogs and Mac would be making a sacrifice for the greater good. But to be honest, I believe this is not probable. If you look at them, it would take much effort to come up with a plan leading to the situation in which we are now. Not that I am underrating them, but it just does not seem probable. Even though the Mods we currently have are capable of making a balrog team Nogrod-Mac-someone.

Others have not spoken this far. I'm really leaving now. I am very curious about the other people's reaction on toDay, but that remains to be seen. Good whatever to you.

[Nogrod]

Brinniel:

#15 Says she’d hoped for more talk and will wait if someone talks... Everyone must be watched closely.

#20 After I had asked her why did she just complain that no one was saying anything rather than saying something herself she says she had made “serious comments”. Says that baddies might hide within bantering – which is true of course. Defends herself once again by saying she had actually “said something” – which can be questioned indeed. I find this post most self-defencive taking into account that there were no open suspicions on her at that moment.

#22 Questions Rikae’s self-vote. Says going suicidal doesn’t help us finding the balrogs. This is most true but also something a balrog would love to say given the opportunity... Oh, how it looks good!

#29 Makes analysis / tells us what she thinks of the people. Basically she thinks that she has no opinion or that people have said nothing of substance. Makes a good analysis on Rikae’s possible roles and says of me that “at this point it is hard to say”.

#42 Votes for Rikae and disagrees with Mac in a way that leaves me quite baffled. Were they talking about the same thing in the first place? Says I’m her second suspicion because of the early posts but that she has not enough evidence to back it up. Now I wondered this back up pointing to the “early posts” already earlier: if she wasn’t so sure any more / if there was no later suspicion so why did she boost the choice that was emerging thanks to Kath (whose points I still find the most fabricated in here)? So I was a bit disturbed how she was ready to kind of ensure the choices we would pick to lynch would be Rikae and myself. I know now that we both are innocents (and if she is a balrog she would know it too) and that kind of choice would be very practical and happy one for the baddies indeed.

So there are things in here that make me a bit worried about Brinn but I have to say that I’m not so sure about this as I was while I skimmed the posts making the vote-analysis. Darn this is hard... and fun!

A short comment to follow and then I need to sleep.

[Nogrod]

So just for the (RL)night a short list clarifying what I have been trying to say and also of what I have left unsaid as there's a limit to my time too. (Just believe it! )

I find suspicious:
Kath
Macalaure

I find somewhat suspicious:
Brinniel

I'm pretty much undecided as I haven't thought of them close enough (my own fault that needs correcting):
The Might
Nerwen
Sally

We don't have enough to say this or that - which will soon become a damning feature if it continues:
Lhuna
Shasta

Will solve by itself if she does not appear:
Naria

I'm leaning more towards innocence at the moment:
Gil
Mith - I've rethought yesterDay evening's last moments
Legate

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It could be added that his first post toDay doesn't look too sincere either. It's not a problem if someone sees he needs to defend himself from suspicion. But to underline the fact that one's post is a defencive one looks a bit overdoing it. I mean a baddie thinks about these things all the time and wonders how his posts look in the eyes of the others. So they become easily oversensitive and feel the need to explain and back themselves up.

Indeed. Any baddie who feels they've been put under a hot fire can become overly defensive. And often, such behaviour only digs them a deeper hole. Isn't that what happened in the last game with Lommy?

Anyways, Nogrod does seem to be making a lot more sense toDay, but I'm still not entirely sure if I should trust him.

Originally Posted by Might

After these posts Macalaure seems pretty suspicious.
First he posts, saying that he must quickly leave and has no time to comment on anything else, so it looks to me as if he was kind of in a hurry.
Still, he finds time 5 minutes later to post again in a quite defensive trying to explain why Nogrod and Gil ended up as those he suspected most.

I honestly don't understand why you find his timing to be suspicious. I got the impression his comment, "I don't have time to look at others closer right now" meant he didn't have time to make any lengthy analyses. Mac obviously cross-posted and had a few spare moments to skim Nogrod's post before leaving....I know I like to read any cross posts before I go, otherwise I might forget about them when I come back.

To answer Nogrod's question:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Says I’m her second suspicion because of the early posts but that she has not enough evidence to back it up. Now I wondered this back up pointing to the “early posts” already earlier: if she wasn’t so sure any more / if there was no later suspicion so why did she boost the choice that was emerging thanks to Kath (whose points I still find the most fabricated in here)?

Your earlier posts consisted mainly of banter, and you said a lot without providing any useful information and I found that somewhat suspicious. There wasn't enough evidence to back that up because none of your later posts screamed guilty. It doesn't change the fact that I was still uncomfortable from your first posts. But I won't vote for someone based only off banter and nothing else.
Anyways, I hope that clears things up.

Ugh, I'm afraid I've been crazy exhausted lately with schoolwork. Let me go clear my head with a nap and I'll come back with more thoughts later.

[Kath]

Well, I'm back, and I suppose I should answer Noggie since he does seem intent on continuing this suspicion of me.

I think the main point is that I came up with fabricated suspicion against him. I don't really know how to answer that, except to say that I didn't. It was Day 1, I had about an hour free to post and not that many posts to base any suspicion. I wanted to make a useful vote rather than just flinging any old name into the hat so I did try to put reasoning behind it.

Ah! I've just found a numbered post. Now I can answer in order.

1) Posting a lot ~ yes, you had. Compared to everyone else at least. I think only Mith was close on you there. It wasn't a joke, because while you have seen baddies hide in silent villages, I have seen them hide in plain and very noisy sight. There is absolutely no reason why a balrog wouldn't be the most talkative person in a village. Also, your assertion that killing off the loudmouths lead to a silent village is true, but I'd rather a silent village with only one baddie left to find than a noisy village with all the baddies left. I'd rather a boring game than a higher chance of being slaughtered in my sleep.

2) Posting a lot while saying nothing ~ you have often called for substance in posts, especially on Day 1, so when I find you not doing that yourself it startles me. It may well just be a difference in opinion, you think they're full of substance, I don't. Since then you have written a lot of helpful and substantive posts, so this claim at least I will relinquish.

3) Seeing balrogs everywhere ~ it wasn't the fact that you were, it was the style you were doing it in. It was too blase for you. I don't know whether you're trying to change your playing style or something you're just really rubbing me up the wrong way so far. Er, which is also the answer to point 4. No, it's not an argument, unless one can make an argument which says you're behaving differently therefore you may have a different role.

Look, basically, to me my arguments aren't sham. They were what I came up with after reading the posts that had been written so far. My only motive is to find out whether you are, as per my suspicion, a balrog. I don't know why you're jumping on this quite so fiercely considering that I hardly started a bandwagon for you and the suspicion wasn't even that intense, it was just the most intense of any of the suspicions I'd gathered.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

EDIT: I hope you're a bit more satisfied with rthis post even if I can't give you the certain identities of the Balrogs as yet...

Certainly. My apologies if I seem offended or put off by your overposting, as this is certainly not the case. I'm just used to being the only one in games that is talking, analyzing, or in my case making jokes to see what kind of reactions they garner. And I don't expect you to hand us a balrog outright (unless you are one, in which case go ahead and tighten your noose! :P) it's just that I've been tired the last couple days and therefore too lazy to make my own judgements.



With that said, or rather not said as I am not completely in my right mind, I will throw out my own suspicion list, which is basically just who looks like they either have something to hide or something to cover up with clever banter. Could be totally off, as I've just woken up from a nap, but after requesting that Nogrod post a more decisive thought I believe I should do so myself. The list is not all inclusive as I haven't formed an opinion on everyone yet. If I should live til the next day perhaps I can be of more help.


Harboring Hairy Tendencies, or at least in need of a shave:
Kath
Mac
Brinn (huge question mark!)

Leaning innocent, at least for the moment:
Nogrod
Gil
Mith

Where have they gone:
Shasta
Lhuna
Naria


I may update this when I return from church this evening, so feel free to comment while I'm gone.


p.s. I took a nap this afternoon and dreamt that I checked on here and everyone was voting me. just thought i'd shared that cuz i couldnt believe i'd dreamed about the game

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Nerwen and The Might just popped in to vote and vanished. They didn't say they were in a hurry or otherwise unable to take part in the last deliberations (there were a lots of votes still to cast at the time they voted). So why did they just voted and left? A balrog would like to withdraw from the hot situations of the last minutes so as not to tumble there. So voting about an hour before the deadline and vanishing is the safe way to go.

Yes, I owe you all an explanation for that. I was in fact in a hurry, and should have said so; however, I was also very tired from having pulled an all-nighter working on a project. I think I should say here that time zones are an issue for me, and mean that I'm mostly going to have to vote either very early or at the last minute.

I'll get back to you when I've had time to read through everything.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm here! I'm here!

My deepest, deepest apologies. x_x;

I've been extreeeeemely busy designing props for the upcoming play at my college. But I'm here now, promise!

Off to read up...

Edit: Okay, after even just a glance, there's something about The Might that immediately sets me on edge. I'll see if I can get something concrete.

[Gil-Galad]

Well now i am offically confused.

Last Day Nogrod was throwing suspicion at me now today hes practically protecting me... this irrational behaviour scares me quite a bit. though i know Nogrod has his reasons that most of us can not seem to understand... i don't want to say too much about him that gives him away.

Well, as I said, I wrote it while skim-reading. And at the end of it, Gil and you ended up being at the top of the list.

I did not see any reference to me during your post this day so i don't see how adding me to top of list for little reason seems relevant... and by attacking two people at the same time, you know that is dangerous in any WW game and it will get you on many suspicion lists...

And i really want to hear more from Mith, last day she really made me uneasy...

Brinniel is acting quiet and collected today... which i say is a rather good move for a wolf and a civilian so i am rather more calm about her...

so i will wait for Mith to talk, if not then i feel my vote will probably go for her, but if she does and brings something relative to us Mac might receive it instead, mainly for being weird today... like trying too hard to spread accusations... and that leads to Brinniel's quiet defense of Mac... its a vicious cycle.

so if Mac=Wolf then i might look at Brinniel=Wolf too for trying to defend him in that subtle way...

OOC: Oh and i am not confused and i'm getting tired of every game you calling me that. i miss things yes. your the ones that are confused because you don't understand what i said last game... i'm talking serious RL Gil here. it is really getting annoying as being the confused one every time i play so if you want clarifcation just ask, don't immediately go for "hes confused as usual".

...

/End Rant.

[Naria]

You can stop bouncin' off the walls now Noggy...I'm here I will offer my apologies to everyone, but I am not going to make any excuses...cuz quite frankly, I don't think anyone really cares

Sooo Nog seems to be off on his usual ranting about useless individuals and so on. Not too surprising there. What I'm not understanding is even when people make a contribution you still aren't satisfied. TM and Nerwen are new, at least to me, it looks like they are trying and some of the things said have made quite a bit of sense.

You see, this is what has always bugged me in these villages. If one does not make a good enough post one is chastised for it? Tell me, what is a good enough post? As you well know, I for one, will not do a huge analytical post. I will not list a whole friggin village and make a three or four sentence comment on each. I do what I can, even if it means a small post just commenting. Who knows, maybe that comment will lead to the capture of a baddy. But *shrugs*, you couldn't be bothered with those types of posts right?

Now that I got that off my chest. I'm going to go back to reading and see if I can't find something a little more...hmm constructive?

[Brinniel]

Some analysis:

Well, it seems almost everyone has spoken toDay. We still haven't heard from Lhuna or Mith. Mith I'm still confused about. I'm not too worried about her for the time being, mainly because I'm sure we'll hear more from her later. Lhuna, with her single post, I have absolutely no idea. Hopefully, she'll still show up, or she may be mod-fired (it's after two Days of no voting, right?).

It's good to see that Naria's shown up. That makes zero no-shows for this game (a first in awhile, I think). Anyways, I've never played with Naria before, so I don't know her style. But nothing jumps out at me for the time being.

Gil has this style of being very up front about his suspicions. He doesn't beat around the bush, but just says what he thinks, if that makes any sense. It can be a dangerous style to play as it can turn many heads. Yet, I don't think it's balrog behaviour...he's just way too obvious. I don't want to completely eliminate the possibilty that Gil may be a balrog and let him fall under my radar, but for now I just don't find him suspicious.

Shasta has said very little of substance except for a few side comments. Not enough to know anything.

So far Nerwen's word and tone seem to be sincere. I still find her most likely innocent.

Sally's use of the word "hairy" makes me wonder: Do balrogs have hair? Anyways, I don't like how she's made up a suspicion list, but has not explained the reasons behind them. Now, I understand it mainly has to do with time constraints, so I hope she manages to find time to return and explain her suspicions before the Day is over.

Kath is honestly still a big question mark for me. Her arguments make sense and I don't see anything fishy about them. I just don't know whether they are sincere, or simply one big bluff. A Were-Kath has fooled me before; I won't make the mistake of letting her slide under my radar.

As I briefly mentioned earlier, Nogrod makes some good points against Mac. But what worries me about him is the same thing Legate mentioned:

But there is one but and that is that he can be using the Voice of Saruman-tactics, even on me, trying to rally masses to his cause. For example, picking Mac as suspect when he knows I have suspected him, and making a crusade against him.

Nogrod is always quite persuasive in his arguments, innocent or not. As a baddie, finding allies is essential and so far it seems that Nogrod is managing to do just that. Then again, persuading others to lynch an innocent Mac could be quite dangerous if he's a balrog...unless he's got something else up his sleeve.

Coming to Legate, I find his posts to be helpful and genuine. Perhaps he is a very cunning balrog, but right now I'm inclined to think him innocent.

There's something fishy to me about The Might. I don't like how he's so quick to bandwagon with Nogrod about Mac. His last post almost seemed like he was looking for his own excuse to accuse Mac and it just felt fabricated. Maybe it's because I don't know his playing style, but we cannot disregard newbies just for the sake that they are new. Otherwise, we might let a possible balrog slide by.

ToDay, Mac's posts are all overly defensive and he seems to feel the need to explain or clarify anything that has been questioned. He just doesn't feel like the typical Mac, and I find that worrisome.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, not much time, but on those who posted since I was last here:

Brinniel - well, not that I would be particularly settled with her, but she is not particularly suspicious. Currently, I have nothing much to say on her.

Kath - cannot say that I'd be settled, but after her last post I feel somewhat better about her. That does not mean dropping her from my suspicions rightaway, but waiting how she acts in the future.

Sally - Again, not helping much in my decisions. But I'm leaving her now be, there is still enough people to focus on, she can wait till later.

Nerwen - I don't know. My opinion on her from the second part of yesterDay were not very clear. They are not still.

Shasta - looks genuine. But that's about all I can say now.

Gil - confusing as always. Like this:

and by attacking two people at the same time, you know that is dangerous in any WW game and it will get you on many suspicion lists...

I believe not, Gil. It's quite normal having more than one high suspect, because there are also more than one balrog. Having always only one suspect could mean that one is a balrog picking always one innocent who seems that he'd be a good scrapegoat.
And

Brinniel is acting quiet and collected today... which i say is a rather good move for a wolf and a civilian so i am rather more calm about her...

Emphasise mine. What's that supposed to mean?

OOC: Oh, and I just read the bottom of your post, Gil. I understand what you mean and will heed it. But also note that in this post, I am saying you are confusING, not confused (anyway, how could anyone know that you are confused when he's not you? Unless you say "I am confused" we have no reason to say you are).

Naria! Wonderful, you are here. Good points, though nothing that would exactly help to form an opinion on her. Of course - from one post...

And one technical thing:

Originally Posted by Brinn

Hopefully, she'll still show up, or she may be mod-fired (it's after two Days of no voting, right?).

I am not sure if this rule applies in this particular game. Was it stated on the admin thread or at the beginning of this one? I believe not.

Okay, so, I'll check back in let's say two hours and probably vote. Probably I'll go for someone of those whom I mentioned in my previous post, though it's not necessary. Well, who knows, let's see.

[Nerwen]

Now that we know Volo was in truth the cobbler, a.k.a. Maeglin, what, if anything, can we learn from his actions and his terrible fate?

Here's a summary:

First post: Notes he won’t be able to post until the end of the Day.

Second post: Defends Nogrod against Macalaure, then is himself mildly critical of some of Nogrod's early comments. Agrees with Nogrod that Rikae cannot be gifted. States his belief that she may be the cobbler, but is probably an ordo.

Third post: Answering Macalaure's charges, claims that his reason for saying Rikae could not be gifted was, not to imply she was disposable, but to put the balrogs off her trail. Expresses suspicion of Macalaure. Qualifies this by saying that "last time I did this, I was wrong". Says he has a "gut feeling" that I (Nerwen) am innocent.

Fourth post: Points out that Gil-galad's remarks about Brinniel are silly and possibly incriminating. Defends Kath against Nogrod.

Fifth post: Casts the fourth vote for Rikae, already the clear favourite.


On the whole, Volo/Maeglin seems to have been playing it pretty safe, mostly chiming in with other people's suggestions or stating the obvious. For what it's worth, though, here's the score:

Attacked:
Macalaure
Gil-galad
Rikae

Defended:
Nogrod
Rikae (again)
Nerwen
Brinniel
Kath.

This may reflect Volo's beliefs about the identity of the werebalrogs– but as he knew no more than the other miners, what he thought isn't all that relevant. (Yes, I am bound to say that– but it's also true.)

The question: did he do something that signed his death-warrant? *dramatic chords*

Some scenarios to play with:

1. Gil-galad and Macalaure are werebalrogs. Volo was killed for accusing them. Simple– and rather dumb.

2. Ditto, but Volo was killed as a double-bluff.

3. They're innocent. The real balrogs killed Volo to cast suspicion on them.

4. One of them is a balrog, the other isn't. Any of the above possibilities could apply.

5. Volo was killed because he defended someone the balrogs plan to have lynched.

6. Volo was picked more-or-less at random. I'm afraid that's just as likely a scenario as any.

That's all I have time for now.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Naria

You can stop bouncin' off the walls now Noggy...I'm here

Good to see you Naria!

Although I'm afraid we have been reading different threads this far as I can't quite recognize your outburst's relation to my posting in this game.

Just a few comments as I'm in a hurry right now.

Sally's post raises eyebrows indeed. Brinn on the contrary has managed to bring my suspions on her down a lot. Gil's post makes me think about him as an innocent even more strongly than I did earlier.

Please people. ToDay we should have more than two viable candidates to choose from. With only two people to choose from there is a great probability that they both are innocents (like yesterDay) and we stand only to lose. Also with some actual choices to be made we'd have something to read from the voting on the Days to come.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Legate

I am not sure if this rule applies in this particular game. Was it stated on the admin thread or at the beginning of this one? I believe not.

Stated on the second post of this thread among the rules:

Originally Posted by Lommy

Players who don’t post or vote in two Days in a row will be removed from the game

So unless our Mod-God decides to be lenient, anyone who didn't vote yesterDay needs to vote toDay in order not to get mod-killed.

[Kath]

Although I'm afraid we have been reading different threads this far as I can't quite recognize your outburst's relation to my posting in this game.

Actually Nog, Naria isn't the only one to have garnered such a reaction from your posts. I am glad that it's not just me, and it does begin to make me wonder if it is just your playing style rather than anything balrogish, but you have been clashing with people. Brinn said much the same thing yesterDay. I suppose it doesn't really matter, but I think it's good for you to see where people are coming from.

But now, who is dead and what can we learn from them?

Rikae ~ It is unfortunate that either no one remembered Nilp yesterDay or everyone was just waiting for the chance to leap on a self-presenting victim. It is also unfortunate that such a bandwagon popped up because I don't think we're going to get a lot out of the voting. The ones thats do look a but suspicious though are Noggie (surprise, surprise ) because he actually says 'I don't think she's a balrog' and then votes for her anyway. So far as I can see there was no reason to if he didn't think she was evil, the votes weren't really close enough for him to have been lynched if he didn't vote for her and you should never vote for someone you don't think has a chance of being evil. Nerwen did a similar thing too, seemingly taking offense at Rikae's playing style and lynching her 'for want of a better candidate', which I don't like. There were enough votes left to come that the bandwagon for Rikae could have been stopped in it's tracks, and it's votes that are based on the idea that 'oh well it's going to happen anyway, might as well help' that allow it to continue.

As for Volo, considering he was the Cobbler we have to take everything he said with a pinch of salt. As fo why he was killed, well he wasn't here much yesterDay, there is hardly a trail to find. Indeed, barely anyone is talking about him because there is just so little to base anything off.

Now, what was the other thing? Oh yes, Mith. She really is very jumpy. I want to see more from her toDay because yesterDay almost everything she posted was a reaction to something someone else said, and it was always quite defensive. Possibly just fear of a Day 1 lynching but really she was never in danger of that so it is a bit odd. But I do thank her for this comment:

I know to my cost that a WereKath is nigh on incapapble of putting a paw wrong.

If only you knew the hell I go through every time I'm a wolf, Mith, trying to make sure that's actually true! But I'm pleased I'm so fearsome when evil.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath

you have been clashing with people.

Not at all Kath dear. Show me where I do clash with people. What I'm doing is trying to find anything that could be considered suspicious and then tell it to you. That means that I have to suspect each and everyone of you and to try to sort out which of those suspicions are good ones and which are faulty. That's what we innocents need to do. We can't afford hunkering down and wishing people would not lynch / kill us by agreeing with everyone else. That's what the gifteds and baddies need to consider for in the end we basic miners need to be ready also to die as that ensures a moment more time for the gifteds.

So I'm all ready to ba a lynching candidate toDay and I'd like to add Kath to that list as well. So we'd need two other candidates still. Any ideas?


Oh, yes and this one... kind of makes me wonder even more what you are up to Kath:

Originally Posted by Kath

The ones thats do look a but suspicious though are Noggie (surprise, surprise ) because he actually says 'I don't think she's a balrog' and then votes for her anyway. So far as I can see there was no reason to if he didn't think she was evil, the votes weren't really close enough for him to have been lynched if he didn't vote for her and you should never vote for someone you don't think has a chance of being evil.

Happily I got only one vote on the last minute but there were so many votes pending at that time that it was a vote with which I was securing my back. I'd have cursed a lot if I hadn't voted her and the last minute votes would have turned the tables. I've seen those last minute frenzies where everything turns upsidedown at the last minute.

And anyway. What's the point of that suspicion in the first place? Why would that action talk of being a baddie exactly? Beats me...

So you're once again laying nonexistant cases before our eyes. And that looks suspicious.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, folks. As I said before, this is the last time I am here today. I consider it very unfortunate, because it seems that now something may start to happen and toDay's voting may be important. And Mith and Lhuna did not appear toDay yet.

First one thing. I was re-thinking everything over and over and over again while writing this post, and there is no time to explain the thoughts that were going through my mind. The only thing I can say is that there were these names swirling through my mind: Macalaure, The Might, and even Sally.

Currently, my most probable votes are either Mac or The Might. Funnily enough, I believe that if I knew that Mac is innocent, I'd vote for Nogrod. I'd end with Mac rather than The Might. Mainly because:

1. Reasons in my post where I spoke about TM.
2. I don't want to accuse TM without actually giving him the opportunity to react. And since I'm not going to be here toDay anymore, I won't have the chance to read his response. Mac, on the other hand, already from his on initiative defended himself from certain points of view. In fact, that's not a good reasoning, however noble towards TM it may be. But I've been thinking several minutes about that, and I must choose.

What speaks for me against voting Mac? Well, mainly I would name the fact that it seems that there can be an easy bandwaggon created by it, and if Noggins is a balrog, the worse.

There is still the possibility that I may skip toDay's voting at all, or at least not vote now and wait if I miraculously don't have chance to appear at the end of the Day. But I really doubt it.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog. Really, really... what I said... I have the feeling that I'm going to miss something when I'm not going to be here for the DL...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm really torn. And there are about five minutes for me to decide whether to vote Mac now or hope that a miracle happens and I'll be able to check internet somewhere. I really must leave because there is a guest lecture by professor... whatever is his name... from Germany and no way I am coming late there.

Speak up, someone! Quick!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

They killed the cobbler? Has it ever happened before that the wolves took their cobbler down?

No time to gloat, though, while the three chief baddies are still around.

This post is somewhat defensive, I know, but I want it out of the way.

Okay, whatever. I just looked at this whole post once again. Seems really balrog-made. I'm voting. Que sera sera...

++Macalaure

Goodbye.

[Macalaure]

An unsuspected lack of time has hit me this week, so I have to make it brief. I'll be there about an hour from the deadline.

I could make a long analysis of Legate and why he is out of his mind in this game so far, but I won't, because a) there's no time and b) I have a feeling I would end up with the conclusion that he's confused, but innocently confused, so it's probably not worth doing anyway.

At the moment, I trust Kath, Nerwen and maybe Mith, but that's all, sadly.

It's even sadder that many have still contributed too little for me to draw conclusions from (Lhuna, Shasta, Naria, Gil).

I don't know where to put Sally and the Might.

Be very wary of Nogrod, my dear friends, be very wary of Nogrod!

And while I'm 'only' very wary of Nogrod, I am very suspicious of Brinniel. I will come back to that when I'm back.

[The Might]

Well, back home and I notice that quite many posts have been regarding me being a bad guy, due to the fact that I agreed with Nogrod and also with Legate about Mac.
However, I had had my own suspicions about Mac from the start of the 2nd day. I felt that this constant need to explain the own decisions (lol, seems I'm doing that now) was a bit exaggerated and seems quite balrogish. And also, I must admit that as a new player in the game I do rather tend to somewhat trust the intuition of more experienced players. This of course does not mean that I would do anything an older player tries to convince me to, but as already said, since I already had my own suspicions abut Mac and some other god arguments were brought against him, I agreed with the others.
Since I was suspicious about Mac and he and Nogrod didn't seem to be on the best terms, I also felt that both he and Legate were and are innocent, as as Legate already pointed out, I somehow doubt the balrogs would sacrifice one of them just to make us feel safe from one of them. Of course, it is possible, but not really a good early game strategy in my opinion.

All in all, I've made up my mind, and am voting out

++Macalaure

I am quite certain about my vote and also am suspicious about Kath, but I'm not entirely sure about that one.

Sorry that I need to vote early again today and it's not because I want to avoid the ending discussion but because I'm invited to a friend who is turning 19 today. I mean, WW is nice, but I'm not saying no to cake. Anyway, he's got a computer with Internet so I might make a post later on if I have the chance to, but can't promise anything.

[Kath]

Nog, I can't believe you just called me 'dear'! I love this new patronising air you've popped up with. Look, by all means suspect people, it is after all the point of the game, it's the manner in which you're doing it that I meant clashes with people. Naria said something to that effect before you'd really even mentioned her so it isn't just a reaction to having suspicion put on you.

Anyway, I don't want to argue that point any more. It's obviously we both have very different ideas on it and I don't want to create a two-way fight, it's just boring. So let's look at the other things you said.

I'd have cursed a lot if I hadn't voted her and the last minute votes would have turned the tables.

You claim that you're innocent, and we know now that Rikae was, so in terms of numbers it actually doesn't matter which one of you died, if one of you was going to. So why the cursing?

And the reason for the suspicion was that you voted for someone you considered to be innocent to save your own life, which is something I consider suspicious.

[Nogrod]

Oh, Mac! You're not making this easier...

But I'm glad you posted. I have done some rethinking during the pauses today and well, at one time I was almost ready to say we stick to Kath and forget you from the lynchlist but...

I'd say you and Legate are not both innocents and probably not both balrogs either. Now some things which Legate has said toDay have really started to make me wonder about his game (and in that case he has played this sooo beautifully - hats off to him). But now as I read your post I'm afraid I'm back on square one again.

---

And please people, bring forwards more suspects! I'm waiting to see what you have on Brinn, Mac as I've thought her a bit more unsuspicious lately - but I haven't given her any serious thought of late.

Also let's remember that having only vocal players on the lynch-row might in the end prove to be a bad decision.

So let's also consider some enigmas toDay.

OOC: I've a lot of work to do at home this evening but I will try to shove some of them aside to play this as well.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath

Anyway, I don't want to argue that point any more. It's obviously we both have very different ideas on it

Wholeheartedly agreed with! And as this seems to cover also the case of "patronising" (which meaning I had no idea about!) I guess we should discuss these semantic-emotional sides of English language after the game. But my intent is not to clash with anyone.

You claim that you're innocent, and we know now that Rikae was, so in terms of numbers it actually doesn't matter which one of you died, if one of you was going to. So why the cursing?

Because I would have been out of the game after Day1 - as happend in the game before the last one... I like this game so it's not nice to get out of it on Day1. Simple as that. And remember, we didn't know then Rikae was innocent but I knew I am.

And the reason for the suspicion was that you voted for someone you considered to be innocent to save your own life, which is something I consider suspicious.

There was no way my one vote would have saved her and even with a last minute flow of votes to me I didn't know whether Rikae was a goodie or a baddie... And I tried to have alternative candidates forwards. No one just paid heed to my calls.

But now I think we need some fresh ideas. I do agree with you about the duels... and they are not only boring but oftentimes also counterproductive as well.