Heighty is mighty?

[Thinlómien]

We have Faramir, who is said to be taller than his companions.

We have Éomer, who is the tallest of his éored.

We have Thingol, a mighty king and the husband of a maia, who is the tallest of the Children of Ilúvatar.

We have Maedhros the Tall who is the most powerful of the sons of Feanor and their leader.

We have Galadriel, the most powerful elf in Middle-Earth, who is very tall for a woman.

And there's surely a lot more examples...

Why? Why is Tolkien over-using this trick? Why are these persons tall? How does it affect them/the story?

And two bonus questions: is the fact that Aragorn is taller than Boromir important? Why? And consider Merry and Pippin. They became leaders after growing not only mentally, but also physically...

My only theory is that the height is there to emphasise the person's importance and high rank, and to sort him out of the rest.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

My only theory is that the height is there to emphasise the person's importance and high rank, and to sort him out of the rest.

That's a good point, and most likely Tolkien's intention, but there is one other thing to consider (at least from my perspective).

Being "tall" is a rather subjective meassure. "Taller than the rest" is not much better. Suppose that a person is tall but not exessively so yet this person has a very dominant character, strong demeanor and good leadership skills. It is likely that the "primitive" part of our brains will tell us "this person is mighty, thus he must be more intimidating than us... he's tall, probably taller than us"

On the other hand, we have someone just as tall but this person is very shy and introverted. Always hunching over, sitting on the dark corner and trying to avoid others. The caveman inside us will say "this person is not scary, as a matter of fact I'm probably more intimidating... I must be taller"

Of course this is rather subjective and you are free to disagree, but it's a likely scenario. Either that or being tall is needed to be a good leader =P Perhaps people won't follow short leaders (except Napoleon)

[narfforc]

There is a view amongst some societies that taller is somehow better, try saying: Ohhh are'nt you tall, in a negative way and then say: Ohhh are'nt you small, in a positive way, it does'nt go together. There is in some way a feeling that the taller you are, then you are better. Well give me a sniper rifle on a battlefield, and anyone over six foot would be dead first, where is the advantage of being big there, ask Mike tyson how many people he flattened that were smaller than him, some were seven inches bigger, no advantage there then. I served in The First or Grenadier Regiment of Foot Guards, the ones with the scarlet jkts and bearskins outside Buckingham Palace, I am average of height, and was always glad to be on active service with the taller ones, I knew I was a lesser target. This brings me to Tolkien the soldier. In the history of the British Army, the Guards have always had a reputation as some of the finest fighting soldiers, this was certainly true during The First World War. Tolkien would, like all soldiers of his day have great respect for The Guards (usually Guardsmen are taller then other soldiers). It is not immpossible that there may be a little of that in his thinking when describing The Tower Guard of Minas Tirith. Soldiers have got taller over the years, I believe that the Romans were about 5' 3'' on average, and the average height of the British Army that fought at Waterloo against Napoleon was 5' 7''.

Remember height has nothing to do with power or being scary, look at Napoleon and Hitler, both jumped up little twerps.

[ninja91]

Wow. I never thought about that before. I guess Tolkien just wanted to show that the tallest ones were normally the most powerful or most mysterious of the rest of the smaller ones. Tolkien certainly does, though, make a point in taller being better for some reason.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

How tall was Tolkien, and how tall was his wife? Perhaps great height is meant to be linked with an ideal of beauty?

Maybe it's just an appeal for good posture. The unlovely Orcs are described as somewhat stooping and small. Stand up straight, boy!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Maybe it's just an appeal for good posture. The unlovely Orcs are described as somewhat stooping and small. Stand up straight, boy!

But hobbits are short too...

[Holbytlass]

Originally Posted by Eomer

How tall was Tolkien, and how tall was his wife? Perhaps great height is meant to be linked with an ideal of beauty?

It is, how often has it been written (or said) that a woman was "tall and slender" also all the examples been set about tall men and great strength, even if a woman is slender but short she is described as pretty or cute.

One thing that has to be considered along with the 'caveman' and the natural world of bigger is better-meaning tougher is that height has come around because of good nutrition and easier access to it.

Now that the world has better and faster means of transportation, variety of foods are available to people (or at least industrialized societies). Even in Tolkien's time and today there is a difference of nutrition and heights. The healthier we are the bigger we get (and I'm not getting into fatter as in too much food-that's another topic).

Originally Posted by Thinlomien

And consider Merry and Pippin. They became leaders after growing not only mentally, but also physically...

After drinking nutritious entdraft.

Another misconception is that the bigger the body, the bigger the brain therefore they are smarter. It's basically psychological-how often is a shorter person not taken seriously or a shorter man seems to be more defensive cause they have to proof themselves more often. Mind you, this is general terms and doesn't apply to everyone.

EDIT: (I forgot to tye this back into LOTR)
In medieval-ish and historical times, the best of what was available was reserved for the leaders and elite. So it makes sense that these men of position (mostly being born to it) had better nutrition, therefore better health.

And because of the psychological thoughts behind it, Tolkien purposefully had Aragorn be taller than Boromir.

[Boromir88]

I think Tolkien uses "tall" in several different ways through the stories. I agree with narfforc and Farael in that someone being tall is a sign of superiority. Not in the bad sense, but in a way that a natural born leader is someone tall and commanding. They are above the "normal."

I'll take Napolean for example. A brilliant leader, but Napolean's struggles were partially caused by his height. Because someone that is leading and commanding it's unusual to see someone 5'4''. The typical idea of Kings is someone that is tall because it appears more "kingly" a sort of benelovence.

But also Tolkien uses height to install fear and intimidate:

He laid his hand on the hobbit's shoulder in friendly fashion; but Frodo felt the hand trembling with suppressed excitement. He stepped quickly away, and eyed with alarm the tall Man, nearly twice his height and many times his match in strength.~The Breaking of the Fellowship

"You can say that I was too strong and took it by force. For I am too strong for you, halfling,"~ibid

Tolkien uses height here to install fear and intimidation, both with the reader and certainly with Frodo. Here is a guy that's twice my size and much stronger, what the heck am I going to do?

And he also does the same with Sauron:

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance.~Letter 246

So Sauron was in no means a giant, but he was taller and bigger than "human."

That is a great point with Merry and Pippin. They became tall for Hobbits, not only growing physically and that emphasizes the growth they made mentally...becoming more mature.

So, I think there are several uses for "tall" that Tolkien uses. The typical, Kings, leaders, warriors, are people who are tall and strong and kingly. Also, to emphasize a mature growth with Merry and Pippin. And then the "bad" use of tall, which causes fear and intimidation in those against you.

Edit: I must have cross-posted with Holby, but one thing she says caught my attention.

Another misconception is that the bigger the body, the bigger the brain therefore they are smarter.

What's interesting is that if someone is taller and stronger than you, you are at a disadvantage and have to find something to counteract it. Like I used with Boromir and Frodo, Boromir using his height to intimidate Frodo, so what does Frodo have to do? Frodo out wits Boromir and makes sure that he's always out of Boromir's reach so Boromir can't use that advantage:

Frodo did not answer, but moved, away till the great flat stone stood between them.

Frodo dodges aside and again put the stone between them.

Frodo plays it smart and makes sure that Boromir's advantage of height and strength doesn't come into play. He makes sure that there's an object between them and that he's out of reach.

[the phantom]

Hurin wasn't real tall.

[Boromir88]

Oh one more thing that came to me on with Kings and height. I think it's just been naturally thought through history that Kings were not your ordinary person. Kings were meant to be taller, more noble, because at the belief of the time they were chosen by god(s). What's interesting to go along with this is that a King's killer was never mentioned unless if it was by another King. Because of course your ordinary soldier, is lesser than a "chosen leader by god," so literary techniques are used to make the King's death appear accidental, if the King was not killed by another King.

One common one being that he was simply shot by an arrow. (Example Harold 1066 at Senlac Hill). And the other common one being that the King's horse fell on top...rolled over/crushed him, making it appear accidental. So, Theoden's death is actually rather significant:

But Snowmane wild with terror stood up on high, fighting with the air, and then with a great scream he crashed upon his side: a black dark had pierced him. The King fell beneath him...

For Snowmane in his agony had rolled away from him again; yet he was the bane of his master...

Faithful servant yet master's bane,
Lightfoots foal, swift Snowmane...(The Battle of Pelennor Fields)

Hopefully this isn't off track, I'm just trying to show that Kings were held up higher than your normal everyday person. They were meant to be taller and greater, because they were the "chosen." And it was considered rather demeaning if an ordinary soldier kills a King in battle, because of course the only equal to a King is another King. Therefor, a common literary device is if he's not killed by a King then the King's death is written as something accidental..."will of the god(s)" sort of thing.

[narfforc]

The British Royal Family has never been blessed with great height, with the exceptions of Edward I (Longshanks) and Henry VIII, that I know of, certainly for the last couple of centuries, the average has been low, with Victoria being positively tiny, Most of our Prime Ministers have not been that Tall. In fact I cannot think of many political leaders blessed with great height, maybe De Gaulle and Kohl stand out, when you think of the thousands of world leaders there have been, President Bush is quite small, and unfortunately one of the most powerful men on the planet. I honestly do not think that size has anything to do with power, between two of the smallest people in Middle-earth, they destroyed one of the most powerful, something Tall Kings could not do, size is a mere perception.

[Kuruharan]

While I agree with much that has been said, I think that appealing to cultural traditions also played a large role in why Tolkien made so many of his prominant characters tall (or taller than their peers). Not only do the characters literally stand head and shoulders above everybody, it fits cultural perceptions that we understand (on some level) about height.

Re. Napoleon: I hate to burst everybody's bubble, but Napoleon was not unduly short for his day. He was (according to his autopsy) 1.686 meters tall, which made him a little bit taller than the average Frenchman of his time. The impression of his shortness probably stems from his continually being surrounded by the Guard (who were all over six feet tall) and their enormous bearskin shakos (which a certain regiment of somebody's acquaintance...ummm...borrowed after a certain event. ).

Clicky here.

[mormegil]

I am a tall man, much taller than the average man so I have some insight from my perspective. First I am 6'5" or about 1.95 meters. I am not giant but significantly taller than average here in the U.S., where not all of us dislike George W. Bush! Anyway getting back to my point, I feel that my height gives me a certain distinction in people's mind. I honestly feel that I generally am ganted an initial higher level of respect due to my height than a shorter man. This is not pompous but my general feeling.

It really is an initial impression though and after that I need to show the personality to match the initial impression. Now from a tall man's perspective when I do chance upon somebody who is taller than I, it is a rare occurance but does happen, I feel a sort of Alpha/Beta struggle where I find myself giving that man instant respect due to his height.

It is my postulation that Tolkien uses height in this way.

Oh and not all tall man are blundering brutes who cannot think logical thoughts I cannot of course, but I know other tall guys who can.

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by narfforc

President Bush is quite small, and unfortunately one of the most powerful men on the planet.

He's 5'11"... I'd hate to see what you think of my height!

Also, here's an interesting article I found when searching for the President's height.

Getting back to the original topic, it's possible that Tolkien did this deliberately, but a lot of the examples listed by Thinlomien are merely logical.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

We have Faramir, who is said to be taller than his companions.

In ROTK, I believe, it said that the blood of Numenor ran "nearly true" in Faramir, whereas his companions would have been of lesser lineage. Thus it makes sense that he would have been taller. In the same way, Aragorn is logically taller than Boromir because he is of the Dunedain and part-elven.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

We have Éomer, who is the tallest of his éored.

Eomer was also of Gondorian descent, through his grandmother Morwen Steelsheen.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

We have Galadriel, the most powerful elf in Middle-Earth, who is very tall for a woman.

Wasn't this description given in FOTR, which was ultimately recorded by Frodo? She is tall for a woman, but not necessarily for an elf. It makes sense for an elven woman to be taller than a mortal one.

The other examples may be chance, or Tolkien might be trying to make a point... but in his stories, might doesn't equal right. It's not a clear parallel of the Stone Age days when the tallest, strongest man often led the tribe. Purity of heart and courage count for much more than height-- as other posters have already pointed out, two of the shortest people in Middle-earth had more of these qualities than some of the tallest men.

My theory is that by making people tall Tolkien was trying to emphasize their noble heritage, in the case of the men, and in the elves, indicate that the blood of their parents ran true in them, and that they had received their favorable traits.

[Raynor]

I would say that the 'blue print' is found in the valar. In the Annals of Aman, it is stated that "after the coming of the Eldar they (the valar) most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent". In letter #246, Tolkien states about Sauron: "the form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic".

[narfforc]

If George W Bush is 5' 11'' then I stand corrected, it is that he looks shorter, and I think maybe he is surrounded by bigger people. Having stood quite close to him I would have bet my life he was'nt that Tall, maybe for the reason we are talking about, his aids wish him to be more than what he is, and have added somewhat to his dimensions, but then I may be wrong. How tall is Laura then?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Let's stay away from current politics and stick to Middle-earth, please...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Of course not all the important characters can be really tall, but this is just a splash of realism on Tolkien's part. He wanted most of his leaders to stand out and inspire awe in his followers. What simpler way to inspire awe than in being visually outstanding? It's the same with beauty.

Concerning Hobbits: Yes they saved the world, but they didn't lead the world. They were jokes, cause for laughter, among the Men of Middle-earth until their ignorance was demonstrated. So the default position is shown to be disrespect. The Hobbits had to save the lives of the tall folk in order for their worth to be obvious (to those tall folk). Think of Pippin at Minas Tirith: the very notion that this tiny little guy could help our city!

Generally, heighty is seen to be mighty. (Love the thread title, by the way. )

[Anguirel]

But phantom's point on Hurin-specifically described as shorter than most men of his House-is interesting. Also Beren is not described as tall, and indeed I read an interesting essay arguing that he too was short(er), evidence including the fact that Curufin shot at Luthien and Beren jumped yet landed the arrow in his upper torso...it also fits with Beren's slinking outlawry approach.

And then there are the Druedain. And of course the Naugrim. Both races of doughty warriors...

Yeah, alright, but the general principle still holds...

I find Boromir's discussion of "evil"height interesting; but evil also works by the slinking malformed Wormtongue/Gollum approach...

[Bêthberry]

Well, isn't it obvious that fantasy is full of tall tales?

[HerenIstarion]

It is even more obvious that anything 'merely natural', be it height or smallness, good wit or physical strength may be used both for good or for bad

[the guy who be short]

I don't have much to add that's original, but as the site's official short person, I thought I should make my presence felt.

Excessive height always attracts attention. The only example I can think of is one I'm sure most people won't get, but, for example, look at Peter Crouch on the football pitch. He just sort of... towers. It draws the eye. Tall characters are there to stick out from the mundane.

In addition, height is desirable. The typical attractive man is tall, dark and handsome (two out of three ain't bad, is it? ). I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I always feel that in emphasising height, Tolkien is saying "this person is attractive." Look at the list - Galadriel, Aragorn, who wed an elf, Thingol, who bagged a Maia. Tall equates to hunky in the men, noble in the women. Sauron also fits in with this; he appears as a tall man when he wants to seem fair.

[Kuruharan]

The only example I can think of is one I'm sure most people won't get, but, for example, look at Peter Crouch on the football pitch. He just sort of... towers. It draws the eye. Tall characters are there to stick out from the mundane.

For some reason, I have a silly notion you are trying some reverse psychology on us...since tall characters also attract the unfortunate attention of goblin swordsmen, snipers (as I believe narfforc pointed out earlier)...and referees .

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In wrestling too: In a Battle Royale, the normal story told is that the numbers will team up to take out the big tall guy.

I think it's definitely linked with beauty.

I agree with most of you regarding Tolkien`s use of height MOST of the times correspondingly to might, except that you forgot one, a very important one if you ask me, what about Hùrin "thalion" (wich by the way is the only character with this distinctive name wich means powerful or so i remember from the SIL.) he is said to be not as tall as his brother Húor and yet he was given lordship over the house of Hador Lórindol and he also is said to be the most powerful of the race of men ever lived ( probably only powerful in terms of warfare and strength dunno ) but thats an example, and here´s another tought regarding mighty people in tolkien´s writing : have you ever noticed that amongst the children of Ilúvatar the ones with blond hair and clear eyes are sometimes if not always ranked as above all others in terms of beauty and might??? im lacking in examples right now as i dont have the books with me but thats the impresion í´ve got after reading the SIL the last couple of times.... i know this is probably off topic and perhaps a theme for another discussion, but what do you think

[Raynor]

have you ever noticed that amongst the children of Ilúvatar the ones with blond hair and clear eyes are sometimes if not always ranked as above all others in terms of beauty and might???

To give the most notable exceptions: Luthien (the most beautiful of the Children and the most powerful, I would say) and Turin.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Don't forget Galadriel - definitely not a dumb blonde!

[narfforc]

Don't forget possibily the Greatest Elf ever, He was tall and fair of face, and masterful, his eyes were piercingly bright and his hair raven-dark.......

[Legolas]

Well Raynor did say "sometimes."

[Thinlómien]

While reading LotR it caught my eye that the Men of Dol Amroth were described "tall as lords". The heighty-mighty -phenomenon again.

Is there any historical evidence (from real world), that lords would have been taller than the non-lords? Or is everything just made up by the historians?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

While reading LotR it caught my eye that the Men of Dol Amroth were described "tall as lords". The heighty-mighty -phenomenon again.

Is there any historical evidence (from real world), that lords would have been taller than the non-lords? Or is everything just made up by the historians?

I'm no historian, although my friend wants to be... I remember he once told me that it was true, people of the nobility tended to be taller and bigger than poor peasants... most importantly because they were much better nurtured (did I spell that correctly? as in they had better food and they were in a better situation when they were growing up). So it'd be somewhat of a viscious cycle I guess.

A person of the nobility has more opportunities to do great deeds as he does not need to worry about working on a farm or such minor things. That person is better fed and better learned, so when an opportunity to do something great appears, they can take advantage of it. The people look up at them for their actions, thus confirming their status as noblemen. Then we start again =P

[Raynor]

It appears that Numenoreans themselves were high and mighty :

Originally Posted by The Atani and their languages, Late Writings, HoME XII

Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature. They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.

[MatthewM]

Almost everything has been said in this thread, but I'll add some thoughts. From what I read, Treebeard and the Ents were not mentioned. Now, think of how they destroyed Isengard, and broke Saruman's hopes. Saruman obviously had little physical strength, but much mental strength and magic. The physical strength of the Ents broke down his hopes, but they were not able to destroy Orthanc itself. Merry and Pippin sat like Kings and watched it all while feasting, smoking, and drinking. Their "guards" did all the work!

Now, this was after the entdraught, so physically they were taller than before Fangorn. This growth, as we know is also associated with mental strength, although that comes fully later. Perhaps Merry and Pippin feasting like Hobbit Kings is a celebration of their growth---jewels amongst Hobbits!

I would like to add that I think Tolkien meant little by making Aragorn just a little taller than Boromir. You can read through the words Tolkien uses that Boromir is not that far off in height than Aragorn. I believe Aragorn was 6'4", so I would say Boromir was no shorter than 6'1"-6'2". Also, Aragorn was most likely a little taller because of his certain Elven heritage (remember that it is speculated that Boromir and Faramir also have a trace of Elvish blood in them, as their mother Findulias was decended from Dol Amroth, in which there is again speculated to be Elvish blood).

[Thinlómien]

Maybe the "tall as lords" also refers to the Dol Amrothians' Númenórean heritage; the Númenóreans (and the high Men of the first age) were tall. But then we can always ask why one people is genetically than another...

[alatar]

Excellent thread, Thinlómien!

To me, Tolkien associates leadership, generally, with height. Many of the leaders are tall. This makes some sense, as you can see them on the battlefield, and so get directions thus. Also, to further increase the height of the leaders, aren't the helms constructed to add a few inches? Why else the wings and plumes and horsehair things? And just what other purpose do standards serve?

Now, not to get political, but when we elect leaders, do *we* associate height with leadership ability? In local politics, you might actually see a live candidate and so are able to judge his/her respective height. TV changes this, as one is not sure how tall the candidate is, and only during debates can one see the relative size of the candidates. What, I guess, is surprising is that in Middle Earth, heighty is mighty, but in our world - around the world - that's not always the case. Was Tolkien stating a personal, cultural or species ideal? This local mayor, note, is more of the Tolkien ideal.

Methinks that the instinct is to defer to the larger person. Not only, generally speaking, will this person be able to 'mighty' you into comformity, but also might be able to see danger from further away (i.e. wargs in the distance), standing taller than the rest, and so it's in your best interest to select these persons.

Me - I'm not exactly of mormegilian stature, though almost (and, due to the kids, getting shorter by the day ) - and I do find that strangers will pick me out of a crowd for directions, for passing through a queue, for reaching items on high shelves and for other wonderful leadership responsibilities.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by narfforc

The British Royal Family has never been blessed with great height, with the exceptions of Edward I (Longshanks) and Henry VIII, that I know of, certainly for the last couple of centuries, the average has been low, with Victoria being positively tiny,

I thought 'enery the heighth ended up being wider than he was tall?

I seem to recall a gossip rag reporting that Prince Phillip was initially pleased to have Diana Spencer brought into the gene pool. I believe he was quoted as saying something to the effect as, "she will breed some height into us."

But as for Tolkien's high ground: Now, the dwarves we know are shorter than the elves, but probably taller than the hobbits. Is this middle ground--neither at sixes nor at sevens--why they don't get much (comparatively) respect? What is said about their kings? Are dwarven kings taller than the average dwarf? To be consistent, wouldn't Tolkien want to make his dwarven kings taller than their subjects?

Was Lear's Fool shorter than Lear or taller?

And who was taller, Gandalf or Saruman?

[Lush]

Well, certain studies (not sure how scientific said studies actually are) do say that taller people get more promotions...

Having said that, it's interesting to think of the Hobbits in this context. Certainly, looks can be deceiving.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lush

Having said that, it's interesting to think of the Hobbits in this context. Certainly, looks can be deceiving.

Thought that that was the whole point. "Hey, the small guys saved the day. Were they wearing stilts or something?"

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And who was taller, Gandalf or Saruman?

Without one doubt: Gandalf. Evil makes you stoop, slouch, and overall lower your stature - why else are they called the Fallen? Hell, Angband, Melkor and Moria are in the ground, whereas heaven, Manwe and Elbereth reside in more elevated locations. Gandalf, staying true to the dictates of Eru, therefore would be taller.

What this says about Dwarves and Hobbits...

And methinks that the reason elves do not sink in snow is due to their need to appear taller - 'in control,' important, leading the way.

[davem]

Of course

Húrin was by three years the elder, but he was shorter in stature than other men of his kin

Shorter than Turin, btw....

But who was the greater hero?

[The Might]

In my opinion, it's also a great advantage in some cases.
Take Bandobras Took for example, he was the tallest Hobbit (until Merry and Pippin decided to take a detour through Fangorn), and he was able to ride. I'm sure that fact that he was capable of riding helped a lot in the Battle of Greenfields.

And actually, I'm the one that's mighty.