Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
06-23-2002, 10:12 PM | #1 | ||
The Kinslayer
|
Míriel's death
If the elves were inmortal, why then did Miriel had to die.
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
||
06-23-2002, 11:37 PM | #2 |
Fair and Cold
|
I think she wanted to die. Doesn't it say somewhere (quick! someone pull out a quote, 'cause I'm too lazy!) that Elves can die from grief, and the like, that they can basically will themselves to die if they want it so badly? And I think that Miriel's inability to find healing in Aman is just the first chain in the sequence of events that leads to the Silmarils, the kin-slaying, the wars, etc etc etc, ad nauseum. The sad story has to start somewhere. And so it starts with an Elf that is too weary to live.
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~ |
06-24-2002, 12:21 AM | #3 | |
Sword of the Spirit
|
I think she died because she poured too much of herself into feanor and it left her no life for herself.
Quote:
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1 |
|
06-24-2002, 01:16 AM | #4 |
Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
|
Miriel did not 'have to die' she chose for her fea [spirit] to leave her body. And after repeated urging from the Valar [ and Finwe] refused to return or even consider returning. What is published in the Silmarillion is but a small part of the story. CRRT left out much concering this. an entire chapter and appendix actually. All of the related stories can be found in morgoth's ring [HoME vol. 10]
[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
|
06-24-2002, 07:36 AM | #5 | |
The Kinslayer
|
From Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion
Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
|
06-25-2002, 09:42 AM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 713
|
It is strange, who so much happened because of the two abnormalities that happened with Finwe and his family. First of all, his wife "dies", in Aman, and then he takes a second wife which brings the trouble amongst the kins of Feanor and Fingolfin/Finarfin. If these strange events had not taken place, then the Silmarillion would probably not have been.
__________________
Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer |
06-25-2002, 09:55 AM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX
Posts: 388
|
I believe that what Miriel did is called discorporation. It's what the Martians do in Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land".
__________________
"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis |
06-25-2002, 10:03 AM | #8 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 228
|
What I want to know is, did the part of Miriel's life force that she lost through bearing her great child pass through Feanor's hands into the Silmarils? Is that Miriel's better half shining up there in the sky of Middle Earth?
I know the light is that of the trees (I don't know if that was changed in Morgoth's Ring, I don't have it yet. It must have been if the Trees disappeared.) My theory so far: the light of the trees was caught in the life of the trees, supported by their life; the light in the Silmarils was caught in a life that was originally part of Miriel's Fea and was then formed into the Silmarils along with whatever other materials Feanor used to make the jewels. Life is the ether, light is a wave in the ether. That's an old theory of light. |
06-25-2002, 10:13 AM | #9 | ||
The Kinslayer
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
||
06-25-2002, 07:00 PM | #10 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX
Posts: 388
|
It's a highly believable possibility anyhow Nar [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. You had me thoroughly convinced.
__________________
"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis |
06-26-2002, 08:01 AM | #11 |
Animated Skeleton
|
Maybe Feanor turned out the way he did because he didn't have a Mommy [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
|
06-26-2002, 08:03 AM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 713
|
Maedhros: I think the light mentioned comes from the two trees, since it was from their light that he made the sils. Feanor forgot that he owed his greatest craftmanship to another, and his pride took possesion of him.
__________________
Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer |
06-26-2002, 09:25 AM | #13 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Armenelos
Posts: 136
|
miriel died because much of her energy went into the having of feanor. Read morgoth's ring. it talks much of this kind of stuff.
She wanted to die because her energy was nearly spent. In morgoth's ring it says that elves didnt have many children because much of their spirit and energy was put into the child and plus they only had children at times of peace, for the days of childhood for the elves were suppose to eb the happiest for botht he parents and children. |
06-27-2002, 12:40 PM | #14 |
Haunting Spirit
|
Elves can die only from a deadly wound or a broken heart. They can also give up their spirit freely, and it leaves to dwell in the Halls of Mandos until the end of the world.
__________________
*Where there is life, there is hope* |
06-27-2002, 10:20 PM | #15 | ||
The Kinslayer
|
Quote:
From Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
||
05-16-2006, 01:12 PM | #16 |
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,947
|
Blessed be the Search Function. I was close to opening a new thread about Miriel's decision.
In the Later Quenta Silmarillion in Morgoth's Ring we read that by marrying Indis Finwe accepted the marring of Arda, and we may argue, that this action was the cause for many evils that followed. But Miriel made a decision as well, maybe not in dying, but in refusing to ever return from Mandos, even after being asked twice. Though I would say that Miriel's pain was graver than Finwes discontent about being unmarried, didn't Miriel accept the marring, too? (as Maedhros' quote suggests) Yet, Tolkien lets her say the famous: "But hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after." How do you see this? If we are able to blame Finwe, shouldn't we be able to blame Miriel as well, at least to a little extend? I think this would be a stronger statement than just "She made a fault in this matter". |
05-16-2006, 01:42 PM | #17 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
|
I must admit, I always thought that Miriel was a bit of a misery - I mean she wouldn't even try. Such negativity is self fulfilling. I think Imperica speaks true though jesting. Feanor's mother chose to leave him - whatever the reason, that is about the worst thing that could happen to a child. Then he has to cope with the competition of less demanding half siblings. No wonder he demanded absolute loyalty from his sons and was generally uncompromising....
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
05-17-2006, 12:53 PM | #18 |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,876
|
Sounds like a very bad case of post-natal depression to me. Poor lady.
__________________
Out went the candle, and we were left darkling |
05-17-2006, 01:34 PM | #19 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
|
But do elves get that? And in Valinor..wopuldn't there be healing? And however bad she felt it doesn't change how Feanor would have perceived it. It does seem she gave up her life very quickly after his birth.
I was reading the Narn i hin hurin today and Morwen was another gloomy one....
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
05-17-2006, 03:00 PM | #20 |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,876
|
Oh, I *adore* Morwen. She's a bit like Bree in Desperate Housewives, in that I love her because she's my complete opposite...
__________________
Out went the candle, and we were left darkling |
05-18-2006, 01:27 PM | #21 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Then again, we should remember that out of Indis came Earendil, about whom Mandos foredold:
Quote:
|
|
05-18-2006, 01:32 PM | #22 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
|
True, Indis like her great granddaughter, Idril, gets far less attention than she deserves. I guess nice happy, capable women don't make such good drama....
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
|
|