Finarfin's choice

[Maédhros]

Do you think that Finarfin made the right choice when he decided to stay in Valinor after the Kinslaying in Alqualonde? Didn't he as a noldorian prince, owed to his people to guide them, in this difficult path in ME where all the perils lay ahead for them. Or did his loyalties lay first with the Valar.

[Elrian]

Reluctantly he did join the revolt of the Nolder, but it wasn't long before he repented and returned to Valinor. He didn't owe it to his people to lead them in the revolt, They were also his people that did no join the revolt, with Finwe dead and his sons gone they had no leader until Finarfin came back.

[Maédhros]

They were also his people that did no join the revolt, with Finwe dead and his sons gone they had no leader until Finarfin came back.

The ones that remained in Valinor had really no problems. They were under the protection of the Valar, meanwhile those who went to ME had no protection but themselves. His sons understood this, he didn't.
In the end, he abandoned his people.

[Elrian]

Perhaps he was the smart on not to get caught up in their revenge, and it was their own choice to heed the lies Morgoth spread about the Valar oppressing them. Finarfin was the smart one to turn back. Feanor was the one who really deserted his own people when he left them behind.

[Maédhros]

Finarfin was the smart one to turn back.

I would say that Finarfin was the one who took the easy way out. Remember that Melkor had killed the High King of the Noldor (his father).

[Elrian]

Remember also that Feanor had been exiled from Tirion for putting a sword to Fingolfins throat over lies spread by Melkor, when Feanor went into Exile to Formenos Finwe went with him and left his rule of his people to Fingolfin. Finwe deserted his own people also.

While the ban lasts upon Feanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.

Also Feanor was responsible for stealing the ships of the Teleri and the kinslaying, as well as the Doom prophesied by Mandos. Then left part of those that followed him behind near the Helcaraxe, sailed to the Firth of Drengist and set the ships on fire, deserting the very people who followed him. In the end Feanor was responsible for the deaths and doom of his people including his own sons.

[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Nar]

When Finarfin turned back, it meant that all those Noldor who wished to turn back could, without deserting their lords, as there was one they could follow back to Valinor. This laid out a path by which the Noldor could be faithful both to the Valar and to a brother of their royal house. Finarfin would have been realizing the full implications of the kinslaying, as I presume the late comers eventually got around to saying, 'say, why exactly did the Teleri ambush us,' then find out they didn't. After hearing Mandos' words on the subject, Finarfin realized that this path of revenge and conquest, baptized as it was in blood & betrayal, could only lead to a place where the luckiest Noldor would be killed in battle and the unlucky would survive long enough to degrade themselves into little Morgoths.

[Maédhros]

Also Feanor was responsible for stealing the ships of the Teleri and the kinslaying, as well as the Doom prophesied by Mandos. Then left part of those that followed him behind near the Helcaraxe, sailed to the Firth of Drengist and set the ships on fire, deserting the very people who followed him.

Yet Finarfin left them before the "betrayal" of Feanor towards Fingolfin.

Finarfin would have been realizing the full implications of the kinslaying, as I presume the late comers eventually got around to saying, 'say, why exactly did the Teleri ambush us,' then find out they didn't. After hearing Mandos' words on the subject, Finarfin realized that this path of revenge and conquest, baptized as it was in blood & betrayal, could only lead to a place where the luckiest Noldor would be killed in battle and the unlucky would survive long enough to degrade themselves into little Morgoths.

So, why did Finarfin had to hear the Doom of Mandos to abandon the voyage to ME. Wasn't the Kinslaying enough of a deterrent for him to turn back.
Finarfin went from Alqualonde, where the Kinslaying ocurred, to the Wastes of Araman, where the Doom of the Noldor was spoken. Quite a ride. Why wasn't his abandonment of the voyage made after the Kinslaying and not because of the Doom of Mandos.
Finarfin was afraid of the Valar.

[Daniel Telcontar]

All of you forget that Finarfin was married to a Teleri. It is not nice to tell your wife that you have just slaugthered her kin, and since that isn't enough for you, you're continuing to ME, where other acts of kinslaying was done by the Noldorne, e.g. the destruction of Menegroth.

[Maédhros]

All of you forget that Finarfin was married to a Teleri. It is not nice to tell your wife that you have just slaugthered her kin, and since that isn't enough for you, you're continuing to ME

Nonetheless the greater part of the Noldor escaped, and when the storm was past they held on their course, some by ship and some by land; but the way was long and ever more evil as they went forward. After they had marched for a great while in the unmeasured night, they came at length to the northern confines of the Guarded Realm, upon the borders of the empty waste of Araman which were mountainous and cold. There they beheld suddenly a dark figure standing high upon a rock that looked down upon the shore. Some say that it was Mandos himself, and no lesser herald of Manwë.

Then many quailed; but Fëanor hardened his heart and said: 'We have sworn, and not lightly. This oath we will keep. We are threatened with many evils, and treason not least; but one thing is not said: that we shall suffer from cowardice, from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda.
But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor.

Why did he wait for the pronouncement of the Valar before abandoning the quest. Can you say afraid of the Valar.

[amyrlis]

Great topic Maedhros - and great name too! Maedhros is my favorite Sil character! However, my opinion differs with yours of Finarfin abandoning his people and being afraid of the wrath of the Valar. I tend to side more with what Nar said about Finarfin not abandoning, but giving his people in Valinor the leader they needed. You say there were no problems in Valinor and they needed no king. But, the High King had just been murdered and the light of trees had gone out. I think those are great wounds that would take much healing for the Noldor who stayed to move past. I think, in their grief, they would look to a leader to help them through. I also believe that, rather than his turning back being a rash decision made only after hearing the Doom of Mandos, that Finarfin's heart was never truly in the journey and that was the last straw. And, as a prince, the decision was not his alone, he had his loyal followers to think of. Finarfin had to ask himself, "Do I want to lead my people into exile? Am I willing to sacrafice their lives for my (or my brother's) pride? What further peril will I take them into?" Perhaps he also thought he could do more good than harm by turning back, making amends with the Teleri and allowing a remnant of the Noldor to live in peace. It could not have been an easy decision since his children did not choose the same path, and he knew it would mean parting with them and his brother.
I have often felt pity for Finarfin, in that he's like Hurin in a way. I've always imagined that he knew, or at least felt a hint, of the woes which befell his family in Middle Earth as they were happening. And, perhaps he always struggled with his reasons for not joining them. Imagine what might have been if he would have been by Fingolfin's side at the gates of Angbad! But instead, he waited in Valinor alone, as his kin returned one by one to the Halls of Waiting.

[Maédhros]

I tend to side more with what Nar said about Finarfin not abandoning, but giving his people in Valinor the leader they needed.

Let's be realistic, the leader they needed. They had the Valar. The one's that went to ME has Melkor to fight. They had only had they had brought with themselves.

I think those are great wounds that would take much healing for the Noldor who stayed to move past.

Yet, this "wounds" paled in comparision with the ordeals which the Noldor faced in ME.

Imagine what might have been if he would have been by Fingolfin's side at the gates of Angbad! But instead, he waited in Valinor alone, as his kin returned one by one to the Halls of Waiting.

Yes, I can only imagine what he would have done in ME. He chose the easy way out in the end. And he came back to ME in the war of wrath with the Valar. Now, that's difficult.

Great topic Maedhros - and great name too! Maedhros is my favorite Sil character!

Thanks, amyrlis

[Amarinth]

yes great topic maedhros [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

finarfin's choice can indeed be interpreted as one out of fear of the valar, and we can go as far as we can on that. some, on the other hand, might even argue that finarfin's admission of wrongdoing and remorse and ultimate backtracking are acts of courage themselves especially coming from a lord of the proud house of finwe. my impression of the event based on your exact quotes was that the "prophecy of the north" served as a sobering douse of cold water on finarfin who, along with the entire host of the noldor, was seized with a "madness" of a kind, a mixture of kindled pride and the hypnotic heady words of feanor (whose tongue can give saruman a run for his money!) if imagined in the context of many senseless genocides in the world to date, this madness must have anaesthesized the noldor from any rational human feeling against the kinslaying they eventually committed/condoned. now after looking at the crime with eyes wide open, it became a judgement call for finarfin to either stick with the madness or come to his senses, seek penance and save the remainder of his people while he could. imho he was the better man for his choice [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

from a "moral" perspective, i agree though with the standpoint that it would have been more "decent" of finarfin to have forsaken the march during or even after the kinslaying, after which absolution from the valar becomes rather more justifiable. this "lapse" like many others in the silm, nonetheless, are for me necessary imperfections which serve to illustrate the fallability or humanity of both the quendi and the ainur notwithstanding their superior state of existence. that the ainur can be appealled to to forgive; that they can give fair warning before meting out the just desserts of the children of eru; that their timing can become questionable; that the noldor can err tremendously, greviously, and still see through the mistake; that they can bend their knees in contrition and want to be pardoned; that the noldor need second chances, too.

my oh my, i think i better bow out before i really get worked up on this!

[Elrian]

Can you say afraid of the Valar

Can you say NO! If that were true Finarfin would have never left to begin with, Manwe also had had sent a messenger before they left Tirion. And Finarfin had nothing to do with the kinslaying that was Feanor and those who followed him.

[Maédhros]

Can you say NO! If that were true Finarfin would have never left to begin with, Manwe also had had sent a messenger before they left Tirion.

I will say that if he was so noble and fair, why did Finarfin needed to hear the Doom of the Noldor to abandon the quest and return to Valinor. Why was it that he needed to hear that and not come back because of his conscience.
HE WAS AFRAID OF THEM.

[Maédhros]

Why, i cry, do Finarfin left his sons. Why did he needed the call of the Valar to return. Why was not the Kinslaying enough. How would have Thingol threated Finarfin in Doriath.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I do not think he was afraid of the Valar, the Sil states, that he left because of the kin-slaying. Maybe the words of Mandos just made him think more of what he was doing. And he didn't abandon his sons; They abandoned him (although that was a good thing; Without Finrod and Galadriel ME would not be so much fun). But if Finarfin had come to ME, Thingol would have treated him with great respect, because he was married to Thingol's niece. Thingol has great respect for Galadriel and Finrod, and even calls Finrod the higly beloved.