Fëanor's Death, Convenient?

[Maédhros]

Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.

Do you think that his death was better for the Noldor in general because it allowed for the healing of the houses of Fëanor and Fingolfin by the actions of Fingon and Maedhros?
Or the might of Fëanor would have helped the Noldor further against their war with Morgoth? Remember, Fëanor would have not accepted well the position of Thingol as the Ruler of Beleriand as Fingolfin did.
From the War of the Jewels: The Gray Annals

Thirdly: because after the death of Fëanor the overlordship of the Exiles (as shall be recounted) passed to Fingolfin, and he being of other mood than Fëanor acknowledged the high-kingship of Thingol and Menegroth, being indeed greatly in awe of that king, mightiest of the Eldar save Fëanor only, and of Melian no less.

[Rimbaud]

Do you think that his death was better for the Noldor in general because it allowed for the healing of the houses of Fëanor and Fingolfin by the actions of Fingon and Maedhros?

The damage caused by the Oath could never be healed. Indeed, the Doom of the Noldor was bound to that Oath.

Fëanor would not, IMO, have benefited the Noldor had he continued his life in Beleriand.

[Gilwen]

Feanor indeed was the mightiest of all. But if he lived, he would have probably made war between the noldor and sindar. And if that had happened, perhaps the sindar wouldn´t help the noldor against Morgoth.

"Nai tiruvantel ar varyuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu vilya"

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[Ravenna]

I think feanor's early death was almost inevitable, considering his obsession with the silmarils, he would never have allowed the oath to rest as his sons occasionally did.
Also without his death many more ills could easily have come to pass, I mean, would he have left Luthien alone as his sons did? Thingol was already alienated and this could easily have spread to infect other elvish subgroups making it impossible for them to work together against Melkor.

[Maédhros]

I concur with what it has been said and sadly I think that Fëanor's death was convenient to the Noldor in General. The internal rift between the Noldor wouldn't have been "healed" (to a point), Fëanor would have not liked the way that Thingol threated the Noldor (exception of the House of Finarfin).
I think that the only plus side, is that he would have gone and tried to attack Morgoth with a great force of War against Angband, like the one Fingofin tried to do, but the Noldor were unwilling.

[doug*platypus]

I agree that he was a dangerous destructive force. But wasn't he also the most powerful in body and mind of all the Children of Ilúvatar? I think that martially the armies of the Noldor, or at least the Fëanorians would have benefited from his prowess, his smithying and his charisma. Maybe the Elves would not have fought together, but there was never really any cohesive combined use of all the armies, it was just a matter of everyone attacking in their own way on the same day.

Given the geographical separations, I don't think Fëanor would have tried to control all the armies of the Noldor. He didn't seem too fussed about Fingolfin ruling the Noldor in Tirion while he was in exile at Formenos. I think it was a great loss that he was killed.

[Saurreg]

If Fëanor did not die, there would still be enstranglement between the two hosts of the Noldor. Fingolfin might forgive his brother again for the burning of the ships but I doubt his sons and the offsprings of Finarfin would.

That said, the might of the Noldor would have diminished so greatly that there would be no effective leaguer of Angband. Morgoth's forces could easily swallow up the smaller host of Fëanor's and then turn his direction to Fingolfin's. End of story.

Another thought: Fëanor was the instigator of the kin-slaying. Supposingly if Thingol found out, would he not attack Fëanor out blind fury? Remember, King Greymantle had never been the most calm and rationale eldar in the Silmarillion. Mutual subjugation of each leader's army is most likely.

[ January 13, 2003: Message edited by: Saurreg ]

[Saurreg]

Feanor indeed was the mightiest of all. But if he lived, he would have probably made war between the noldor and sindar. And if that had happened, perhaps the sindar wouldn´t help the noldor against Morgoth.

I cannot recall an instance in which the Sindar of Doriath officially aided the Noldor in the War of the Silmarils. The first battle of the stars was fought before the Noldor returned to Beleriand and hence cannot be counted as such.

During the fifth battle, only Bereg and Mablung joined Fingon, Thingol would not give the Noldor aid in strong arms again.

Sindar whom dwelled with the Noldors and served under their banner are of course excluded.

[Saurreg]

A twist:

I seriously doubt Thingol would have aided the Noldor even if it were Finrod and Fingolfin whom begged him to. The Sindar had grown too proud and resented the the presence of the Noldor whom had arrived without prior warning and carved off masses of land for their own.

Supposely, if big Fëa was still alive when Thingol lusted for one of the Silmarils, would he not have mustered his forces in an attempt to crush Doriath? The might of a dark god had not detered him from making the journey back to Middel-earth, would a spell of a lesser spirit stop him?

[the phantom]

(sorry about the length, I hope it makes sense)

It would have made for some uncomfortable feelings for a while, but I think had Feanor remained alive, it would've turned out for the better.

First, I think Feanor wouldn't have continued being so crazy. Some of his unkind actions (kinslaying, ditching Fingolfin) were done because of a combination of grief (for the loss of his father and the silmarils) and because he thought they were necessary to get at Morgoth (he thought pretty much everyone was in league against him, trying to hinder him).

I believe that the passage of time would've helped ease his grief a bit. Also, I think he definitely would've met Thingol and Melian, eventually anyway, and Melian would've helped his mind, like she did for Hurin if you recall.

After he calmed down a touch and had gained better wisdom through Melian, I'm sure he could've made ammends with Fingolfin. And even if feelings weren't great between them and their hosts, Fingolfin, because of his oath, would make himself subject to Feanor and follow his orders.

Before I say exactly why things would've turned out better, I'm going to point out a few of deeds accomplished without Feanor's help.

Soon after Fingolfin's arrival in ME, the Noldor held Morgoth in check for what, five hundred years?

Fingolfin got Morgoth to fight and wounded him seven times.

Luthien and Beren snuck into Angband and stole a Silmaril.

In the Battle of Unumbered Tears, despite his dragons and balrogs, Morgoth came close to losing. I recall that Gwindor and company killed the guards on the doorstep of Angband, and it said that Morgoth trembled.

This is some pretty big stuff the elves accomplished, and I think with Feanor's added power, Morgoth would've been beat, possibly very quickly. Everyone remember, when Morgoth first returned, he didn't have any dragons. All he had were balrogs and orcs (and orcs were no match for the Noldor as the first battle clearly shows). And balrogs can be killed by a single elf. When Feanor was fighting all by himself, The Silmarilion said there were balrogs all over the place, and it took quite a while for Feanor to go down. In single combat, Feanor would've whooped any balrog, and the same thing goes for Fingolfin.

None of Morgoth's servants could withstand the Noldor, so really, Morgoth's only defence for the first few hundred years was the fact that nobody could get into Angband to get him. I think Feanor would've found a way. If not, I think he couldn't convinced Melian or Luthien to help him get in (she obviously could get in, because she did with Beren). You might argue that Thingol wouldn't let her help, but Feanor can be quite persuasive, and I think Melian would've had compassion on him and moved Thingol to help him.

Once the Noldor are in Angband, the show's over for Morgoth. The orcs would start dropping like flies, some of the mightiest elves would gang up on the balrogs and kill them (Maedhros, Fingon, Turgon, Finrod, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gwindor), Feanor and Fingolfin would dust off a few balrogs themselves, and then there'd only be Morgoth left. If Fingolfin was able to wound him seven times by himself, I think with his brother's help Morgoth would be toast.

And even if they didn't find a way into Angband, I believe Feanor could've gone out on a recruiting trip and got a whole load of dwarfs to help out. Being the great craftsman that he was, the dwarves would've loved him and probably seen him as a demi-god. Some would probably think he was Aule in disguise. I think Feanor also could've persuaded other groups of elves living over the mountains to come help.

I think Feanor had limitless potential, and had he been allowed to live, would've ended up ruling the world.

(again, sorry about the length)

[Deathwail]

I feel Feanor was far to full of pride and love for things made of his own hand to ever come back into line with the Valar to gain their aid against Meklor and so in turn while Feanor lived and was king the world was doomed to be ruled by Meklor.Sorry but there is no way the Elves or Men where ever going to over throw Angband and every day the might of Meklors fallen beasts grew as was shown by how many Balrogs and Dragons he had at the Fall of Gondolin.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Just a question, do you think Faenor would've got along better with men and Dwarves then other Noldorin lords? Curufin ,said to be a lot like Faenor got on well with Dwarves and he was said to be responsible for a lot of Dwarven lore. Faenor, seemed to hold men in contempt, viewing them as 'lower beings' but would this opinion have changed as he got to know them? I doubt whether Thingol and Faenor would've got along, they are both very proud (Fingolfin was also proud, but to a lesser extent, though him and Thingol never met.) It seems strange to me that Thingol was so unfriendly to Finwe's decendants before he learnt of the kinslaying, since he was such a good friend of Finwe. What if Finwe wasn't slain, and he led the Noldor to M-E? Would Thingol be more friendly to the Noldor? Woudl he have held his two proud sons in check?

[lord of dor-lomin]

I think I agree with much of what the phantom said.

Deathwail, you're right about Melkor's beasts getting stronger every day and it's true he had a lot of dragons and balrogs during the fall of Gondolin, but the point the phantom was making was that Melkor and his forces were weak after he first returned to Angband (he had fewer orcs, and no dragons, none). It was already pointed out that Melkor was held in check for hundreds of years. The only reason he won was because he had hundreds of years to devise new evils, create the dragons, and multiply his forces.

Had the elves been able to get to him while he and his forces were shrunken, they would've beaten him. Orcs, no problem. Balrogs, tough, but not too much for a few elf-lords.

I think if the Noldor could've gotten inside Angband near the beginning they could've won, and I think Feanor's presence would've increased the Noldor's chances of getting inside Angband, therefore I think it would've been better if Feanor had lived.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Regarding Inderjit's question, I'd say Feanor would've been declared king of the dwarves, and dwarves from everywhere would come to see him and learn from him. He probably could've got more than half the dwarves in the world to come to Beleriand, because what he did better than anyone ever was what dwarves praised above all else.

You already said that Curufin got along with the dwarves, but also, look at Curufin's son, Celebrimbor. He was chums with the dwarves of Moria while he was alive. Remember, Celebrimbor was the one that made the three elven rings (which were pretty powerful). Just imagine how powerful an elven ring made by Feanor would be!!

I'm not sure how Feanor would've got along with men. He never got to meet them. I don't think his feelings would've been important, I think it'd be more important what men thought of him (which would determine whether or not they followed him). Just with his power and skills alone, he probably would've drawn some men to him. But also, if Feanor thought he could gain an advantage (extra strength of war), I'm sure he could suck it up and be nice even if he didn't like them too much.

Would Thingol have been more friendly to Finwe? I'd have to say yes, but I also doubt that Finwe would've barged into ME lik that. Could Finwe have held his sons in check? Yes. I know he could control Fingolfin, and I think he could pretty much keep Feanor under control because Feanor loved him so much.

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: lord of dor-lomin ]

[Maédhros]

It seems strange to me that Thingol was so unfriendly to Finwe's decendants before he learnt of the kinslaying, since he was such a good friend of Finwe.

I call that Jealousy.

What if Finwe wasn't slain, and he led the Noldor to M-E? Would Thingol be more friendly to the Noldor? Woudl he have held his two proud sons in check?

If Finwë wasn't slain, then I think that he would have had a better relationship with his "friend". Would Finwë held their two sons in check? Yes, he was after all the Ñoldoran.

[Deathwail]

I would not disagree that yes if the Elves had stuck together and there had not been the Kinslaying that they would of driven Melkor from Middle Earth, but i dont think they could of slayen him as killing a Valar i dont think was in the power of the Elves and so he would of returned again at a later date most likely.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think that Finwe woudl have held Faenor and Fingolfin in check, and Finarfin and the 1/10th of the Noldor who went with him problably would have goen to Beleriand. Without the doom of the Valar on them, the Noldor would've wiped the floor with Morgoth's armies, especially with the Sindar, Dwarves, Nandor, and later on men on their side.

[StarJewel]

If Feanor had lived longer, he would have caused more problems between the Sondar and Noldor. Open war would have been a real possibility. His death allowed for a peace, granted a strained one, between the brances of elves. Otherwise, good relations would have been as likely as an elf marrying an orc

[Finwe]

I don't think that Fëanor would have done anything differently if he had lived. He was too proud of himself, his sons, and the works of his own hand. Look at what Maedhros and Maglor did at the end of the War of Wrath. They stole the Silmarils even when they knew that they didn't have a right to them any more. Fëanor would have done just that. He would have flung himself against the Gates of Angband until he burst through, and would have gone after both Morgoth and the Silmarils till the end, everyone else be damned.

I don't think that any of those who crossed the Helcaraxë forgave Fëanor or his sons (except maybe Maedhros). They had gone through too much. I mean, Turgon had to see his wife perish, and his daughter nearly die (Idril was barely saved, but Elenwë couldn't be). There were many more losses like those among the host. After something like that, I don't think ANYONE forgave Fëanor. They might have forgiven his sons for a little, but they still hated them. I think that Fingon and Aredhel were probably the only children of Fingolfin who still kept their friendship with the sons of Fëanor.

I don't think that it was grief for his father's death and Morgoth's lies that drove Fëanor to do what he did in Aman. He was born a leader, nothing would have changed that. He was probably being smothered in Aman. None of the Elves had much opportunity to be a leader, except for maybe the Kings (Ingwë and Finwë). Fëanor knew that he would probably never become King, and always have to put up with the "Sons of Indis," whom he hated with a passion. Perhaps, subconsciously, he wished for his father's death so that he could do away with his competitors to the throne. After Finwë's real death, then Fëanor was probably consumed by guilt on top of everything else. I'm sure that he had wished for his father's death more than once in his life, and now that it actually happened, he was probably feeling quite guilty about doing that. That added to his mental stress.

Fëanor was also the type that would do what he wanted to do, whether anyone stood in his way or not. He wanted to get to Middle-earth, and all of Olwë's admonitions and pleas wouldn't change that. After listening for a while, he probably just lost his patience, and took the ships by force.

I also think that the reason he disliked Fingolfin so much was that the latter was actually greater than him. If you read carefully in the Silmarillion, it says that Fingolfin was the mightiest, and bravest of the Noldor, whereas Fëanor was the most skilled. There is a great difference between skill and strength, and even though skill was greatly prized among the Eldar, strength was probably prized more. The fact that this usurping half-brother actually was better than him at something probably rankled in Fëanor's mind, and that was probably why he left Fingolfin behind, to show that it was Fëanor who was stronger and better, not Fingolfin.

Even if Fëanor had survived the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, I don't think that he would have helped the fight against Morgoth any. As I said before, Fingolfin was the strongest of the Noldor. If he couldn't kill Morgoth, then how do you expect Fëanor to? Fingolfin was also more levelheaded than Fëanor. He weighed things before acting, instead of rushing in blindly like his brother. If Fingolfin had been driven to near-madness by the destruction that he saw, what do you think it would have done to Fëanor? He would have become fey a long time before, and tried to kill Morgoth, resulting in the eventual death of one of the greatest Eldar. Either way, he would have died.

Sorry for the extremely long post guys!

[ June 25, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ]

[Yavanna228]

It has been said that if Feanor had lived and led an attack on Morgoth while his forces were still small, he would have eventually ruled Middle-Earth. It is also said that he could have calmed down and become more mellow. Really, this whole issue is best left to personal interpretation. There are some who have faith in Feanor's eventually diminishing outwardly, and then there are some who despair of him ever changing.
Personally, I feel that it's a catch-22 situation. Had Feanor lived, he may have aided in the fight against Morgoth, eventually defeating him. But after the defeat, who is to say that he would have calmed down? He may have become an even worse tyrant over the Eldar. His calming down is not a solid enough fact to bet on.
Then again, since Feanor died, the Eldar were deprived of a great creative force and a charismatic leader, but it gave the other elves a chance to shine, a chance to prove themselves, whereas before they were overshadowed by Feanor.
So, in my eyes, it is a tough situation to tack down a definite positive or negative angle to. It is a decision that must be made for yourself.
Peace

[the phantom]

I don't think that it was grief for his father's death and Morgoth's lies that drove Fëanor to do what he did in Aman.

Really? I thought that was exactly what drove Feanor to his actions. Manwe refers to Feanor being marred by Melkor, which means without those lies Feanor would've been different.

I'm sure that he had wished for his father's death more than once in his life

You are assuming a lot, and that particular assumption holds no water. The Silmarillion says that Feanor loved his father more than any son has ever loved his father.

Fingolfin was the strongest of the Noldor. If he couldn't kill Morgoth, then how do you expect Fëanor to?

Just because Fingolfin was the strongest doesn't mean that he could beat Feanor in a fight. Though Fingolfin was a bit stronger, Feanor was likely more agile and had more perfect coordination (the coordination is for sure, since he was such a great craftsman), and any fighting or weapons expert would tell you that that would give Feanor the greater advantage in a sword fight. Now, I'm not saying he would definitely win, but I'm saying that it's certainly possible. Remember, Feanor fought all by himself against a few balrogs for some time before he was finally struck down.

[Finwe]

I agree phantom, but has there been any son ever who has never resented his father? OK, perhaps my wording was a little strong. What I meant was that Fëanor must have resented his father for making him have to put up with Fingolfin and Finarfin.

As for strength vs. agility, in some situations, what you need is brute strength. I'm not saying that agility is no use. I agree, Fëanor was probably very agile, due to his work as a craftsman. Perhaps I've also misread Tolkien's words. I think that the exact phrase about Fingolfin was that he was the mightiest of the Noldor. The word "might" leaves a lot to the imagination. It could include both skill, agility, and strength, we'll never know.

I see where your arguments are coming from, but I still think that Fëanor wouldn't have helped the eventual outcome much if he had survived the Dagor-nuin-Giliath.

[the phantom]

Fingolfin was probably called mighty at some point (as were his sons and many others besides), but I don't recall him being called mightiest. I just happen to believe that Feanor would win in a fight. If I'm remembering the quote correctly, I believe Feanor was said to have been "the greatest in power of both mind and body".

but I still think that Fëanor wouldn't have helped the eventual outcome much if he had survived the Dagor-nuin-Giliath.

I'm willing to accept that opinion, after all, there's no way of knowing for sure.

[obloquy]

Your posts are terrific, Finwe. Every post you've made is just full of these unsubstantiated 'observations' presented as legitimate facts. Stop pushing this conjecture that is based on nothing more than what you think would make a good story. I just love it too much.

Here's the quote you're thinking of:

Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant.

But it doesn't necessarily mean that Fingolfin would have had more chance of defeating Melkor than Feanor. Feanor is elsewhere stated to be the greatest of the Eldar, besides Galadriel and Luthien. The statement has nothing to do with skill or might in battle specifically, it is a reference to the power of his spirit. And then we're given this bit:

The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.

[ June 25, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]