The Light in Frodo's Face

[Child of the 7th Age]

This came up on another thread, and I wanted to post it separately to try and understand what is going on. Several passages refer to a light which radiates from Frodo's eyes or face, or alternately to a light in other's faces which Frodo is able to see.

The first time, I believe, was in Tom Bombadil's house. Here, Frodo, on seeing Goldberry, feels "his heart moved with a joy that he did not understand". (She must have been some beautiful woman!) She replies to him: "... But I see you are an Elf-friend; the light in your eyes and the ring in your voice tells it."

In Lorien, Frodo found Aragorn "standing still and silent as a tree; but in his hand as a small golden bloom of elanor, and a light was in his eye. He was wrapped in some fair memory: and as Frodo looked at him he knew that he beheld things as they once had been in this same place."

Later, in the depth of Mordor, Sam commented on the face of the sleeping Frodo:

He was reminded suddenly of Frodo as he had lain, asleep in the House of Elrond after his deadly wound. Then as he had kept watch Sam had noticed that at times a light seemed to be shining faintly within; but now the light was even clearer and sronger. Frodo's face was peaceful, the marks of fear and care had left it; but it looked old, old and beautiful, as if the chiselling of the shaping years was now revealed in many fine lines which had been hidden, though the identity of the face had not changed. He shook his head, as if finding words useless, and murmured: I love him. He's like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no." (II, 260)

It is quite amazing that Frodo's face should look "old and beautiful", since we know the Ring preserves its bearer in a stretched, taut state of youth that will not diminish till the Ring itself is put down. But here, it is as if the light in Frodo's face has the power to protect him, at least temporarily, from this artificial state of youth.

There may be other examples of this light, but before I go hunting for them, could someone help me with this: What exactly does this light represent, both that which is in Frodo's face, and that which he has the ability to see in the faces of at least some others? Is it merely a reflection of the moral power of goodness or the greater "spiritual" awareness and growth of the character? Is it tied into the fact that Frodo (and for that matter Aragorn) is an Elf-friend? Don't Elves also have a light shining from their faces, especially those who've been to Amon? (Think I saw that on another thread.) If so, how does Frodo's light relate to that of the Elves?

Any help or insight would be appreciated. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[littlemanpoet]

A very intriguing question, Child. I fear all I can give is an opinion, or a guess. Maybe that's all there is available. Elf-friend seems to be significant. Elves, I think, were more pure essence of spirit than humans. What I think is being suggested by Tolkien here is that there is indeed something Elvish about Frodo, that through his travails the chaff is being burned away quickly. (Uh-oh, a Pauline reference there - sorry to bring out a particularly christian analogy [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) I don't think Frodo has been holding the ring enough years for that stretching to occur; rather, it's the hard road and his self-sacrifice that is purifying him to be akin to Elves, a being of light while remaining hobbit. It's no wonder that he couldn't stay in the Shire.

Frodo's light is vastly different than that of the Elves. The Elves are practically pure spirit, very close to all Creation and its radiant beauty, as well as its Creators. They glow faintly with "starlight" because it is a mark of their higher nature.

I am doubtful that being an Elf-Friend has much to do with Frodo's light. For example, Aragorn is an Elf-Friend, yet he doesn't shine. All an Elf-Friend denotes is an individual from another race who proves friendly to the Elves, and is of good standing and/or service to them.

Frodo was most likely considered an Elf-Friend even before Gildor Inglorion said anything about the matter. The Elves knew who Frodo was and greeted him by name at their meeting. Gildor explained to Frodo that he had been seen walking with Bilbo many times by the Elves, even if he had not seen them.

When Gildor later names Frodo an Elf-Friend twice, the second time, with a more serious bent in the conversation than the first, I think that he was trying to comfort Frodo and give him some assurance that the Elves in the surrounding region would hear of his plight and his need for assistance, and further, that the Elves would be on the look-out for him, as well as the Black Riders.

Later, when Frodo meets Goldberry, there is a light in his eyes. Frodo felt a delight in seeing Goldberry that he could not quite grasp. To him, it was much like the delight of hearing the Elves, but it was a different experience, because he perceived the joy as being closer to a "mortal heart" and "less keen and lofty."

He then is moved to sing a few lines of a song that Tom Bombadil had sung, and he suddenly becomes self-conscious and abashed. Goldberry, delighted by his praise and aware of his embarrassment remarks, "I had not heard that folk of the Shire were so sweet tongued. But I see you are an elf-friend; the light in your eyes and the ring in your voice tells it."

I think that this was simply Goldberry's way of greatly complementing Frodo by comparing him with so fair a race as the Elves and putting him at ease. Furthermore, Goldberry is much higher on the food chain than the average Elf. She is of such a high degree of spiritual nature, that I suspect she could look into any heart and glean what is there in an instant. Frodo is who he is, and he greatly admires the Elves. So it is written in his heart and can be read by those keen enough to do so.

The light that Frodo perceives in Strider's face when they are standing on the mound of Cerin Amroth -- well, that's just pure love. That whole bit has more to do with Aragorn and Arwen and what is between them than anything else. Frodo merely acts as a silent witness.

Also, the Ruling Ring itself has the effect of causing Frodo's senses to become more keen. He can perceive things with his mind that others can not see. This is greatly illustrated later when he is beckoned by Galadriel to come to her garden and look into her Mirror. He perceives Nenya upon her finger, which due to the nature of its "magic," few can see. They speak of it openly, yet Sam is befuddled and has no idea what they were talking about. His only remark is that he "saw a star through her finger."

The very key to Frodo's light I think, is foreshodowed when he is recovering from his near-fatal wound in the House of Elrond. Gandalf, sitting by Frodo's bed when he awakens, speaks with him for a bit, and Frodo begging for more information about what has gone on, prompts Gandalf to do so. Before Gandalf divulges anything to him, it is written:

Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside and took a good look at Frodo. The colour had come back to his face, and his eyes were clear, and fully awake and aware. He was smiling and there seemed to be little wrong with him. But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it were of transparency about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet.

"Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can."

Thus, Frodo's light is an inner quality. He is, after all, reflective of the Mystic Hero archtype. He is on a physical quest, but one in which he will have to wrestle with his own nature and/or inner demons in order to succeed. Such quests require great sacrifice on the part of those who chose to endeavor them.

All that Frodo did, he did for the love of his people and the love of all he treasured in his heart. He bore a burden beyond imagining for love. Despite this, at the absolute last, he failed. In "punishment" for his "denial" of his own true nature, Frodo quite unwillingly sacrifices his own ring finger when Gollum bites it off in a fit of madness. Gollum accomplishes his own personal quest of reclaiming the ring for himself, though this proves to be Gollum's own undoing, his demise is for the greater good of all Creation.

Frodo goes further than anyone else, and deserves praise, but like Sir Lancelot, he unfortunately doesn't go quite far enough.

In the end, Frodo is so haunted by the spectre of the Ring and perhaps his own failure, that he at last chooses to pass into the West, and thus, gives up everything he fought for because he is so wounded and overcome by weariness.

Frodo takes his "light" to the Blessed Realm. Perhaps, it was only the wise Elves, who could look beneath the surface and into the heart, that could see Frodo's goodness, love, and ultimate spirit of sacrifice. Maybe only they could see how wounded he had become during the course of his quest, and in pity for all he had suffered, attempt to heal him.

[Birdland]

Bravo, Winter Raven! Great resonse.

[Arwen Imladris]

Wow Raven_Winter! that's great!

One thing though, wasn't Frodo's transparency, because of being stabbed? And wasn't that being transparent, not light?

[Enedhil]

Wow...that's really cool answer. there are a lot of things about Frodo that requires thinking a-plenty.

I have another question myself: just before Frodo leaves for the Blessed Realm, he tells Sam some things...which I can't quite remember and Mum has the book right now...things about his future - names of some of his children, that he would become mayor and other things he "couldn't see". Question: How?! how did Frodo know, and get it right too!

Yes, Arwen Imladris, Frodo's transparency was a result of him being stabbed with a Morgul-Knife upon Weathertop.

As for the result of that being a transparency and not light, you may not fully understand that transparency has everything to do with light.

In order for something to be transparent, light needs to be transmitted so that forms and/or objects on the other side may be visible. Glass is a perfect example of this. Light passes through it, and you can see objects clearly through the glass.

What I was trying to get at with that reference of Frodo, was that Frodo's light had everything to do with Frodo, and had nothing at all to do with the Elves.

Child of the 7th Age quoted a part of "The Two Towers," where Frodo, Sam, and Gollum were in Ithilien. Gollum goes off, presumably to hunt for something to eat, and Frodo goes to sleep while Sam keeps watch. She quoted, in relevant part:

He was reminded suddenly of Frodo as he had lain, asleep in the house of Elrond, after his deadly wound. Then as he had kept watch Sam had noticed that at times a light seemed to be shining faintly within; but now the light was even clearer and stronger..."He's like that, and sometimes it shine through, somehow."

This was something that Gandalf had marked as well, for he also equates Frodo with a quality of light while he is recuperating from his grievous wound in Rivendell. Quoted, in relevant part:

"He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for those to see that can."

Now, the nature of this light is an inner quality that Frodo possesses. It shines through him. It could be described as his inner beauty or spirit.

The one thing that makes Frodo the great and tragic hero that he becomes is his tremendous love -- for his people, his friends, his world, everything that matters to him. It is something that comes across as being very honest and very tangible.

Frodo realized from the beginning that all of the Ring business was something far bigger than himself. However, he was willing to sacrifice his creature comforts, and suffer terrible hardships in the hope of ridding the world of the Ruling Ring's accursed influence forever, so that all he loved could be preserved.

And so, it is the full knowledge of that love which makes Frodo's denial at the end of his quest so wrenching -- because you know that is not "Frodo" doing the talking, but, rather, the evil influence of the Ring speaking through him.

Frodo becomes hopelessly wounded by his whole experience -- the Morgul-Knife wound that never fully healed, the unspeakable torment of bearing the Ring, and his own ultimate failure to overcome the Ring's crushing influence.

Frodo's own "light" is not enough to sustain him or even powerful enough to fight off his frightful visions, and so he goes over the sea into the Utmost West, for solace, healing, and ultimately, peace of mind.

Enedhil -

Frodo possessed the Ruling Ring long enough that it affected his perception. He became very keen, in that he could perceive things that others could not.

It must be remembered that the Rings of Power gave their bearers abilities within their measure -- far-sightedness, extended life, protection, and so forth.

Do you recall Frodo's precognitive dreams -- Gandalf pacing back and forth while imprisoned at Orthanc -- and his dream of the gray rain curtain, that when rolled back revealed a white shore and green country. These things he saw as they happened far away, as in the case with Gandalf: or before they happened, as in the case of his journey to the Blessed Realm.

Therefore, he either dreamed of the events he spoke about, or he had a direct vision/perception at that time of Sam's future, and so expressed it.

Which it was for certain, the story does not tell.

[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Raven_Winter ]

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Raven_Winter ]

[stone of vision]

Great insights, Raven [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
you inspired me.
My english is rather quite bad but this is my thoughts about Frodo.

Frodo is for me a representation of Purity and Rightness.
That is a the primary matter of his deep nature. I have never seen such a rightful hero described as he is.

One of the stories the book told us, is the story of frodo's evolution from the mischievous Hobbit he were to the person he became after the ring's saga.

What caused the change of frodo is -- the Ring.
The ring wich began the whole story, the ring which is the origin of the adventures Frodo will have to undergo.
Being the bearer, Frodo is walking on the borderline between the real world and the shadows world, between evil and good,
the ring being the balance between them.

Frodo's fight has a spiritual dimension as he had to resist against the power of the ring, the temptation of the dark power.
In my POV, this inner fight is a battle of willing, each bearer had to submitt, and the allegory of this is well represented by Frodo/Gollum's potrayal

Frodo and Gollum are the two faces of a same coin --or the same ring should I say. They are the reflect of each other through the “ ring mirror”, the two antagonistic perspectives offered by the unique ring. Both have the choice between these different Evil/Good ways to fullfil their desires–or might seem to, —as whatever the road they are walking on, each of them will have to pay an expensive price.
The first one chose the light , the fight and lost his serenity and his peace of mind.
The second chose the shadows, the surrender and lost his soul and his humanity.
At the end none of them will fit anymore in the new Age world born from the saga.

Concerning Frodo, I remember the quote told by Gandalf in many meetings when frodo woke up in Elrond’ s house listening the wizard’s story:
“He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can”.

The sequel of the ring experience gives Frodo a kinda –wisdom state that makes him more “Elvish”.
He will never be back the cheerful and carelessness hobbit he was though he had kept all the flavors that made him the wonderful person he is.
He has evolved, tasting the other side of the mirror through the magic of the ring , however he chose (almost) not to cross the line--

That made him in a shade of greys, one feet in each world and his own willing free, yes, a glass filled with light for eyes that can see from both side.

The light of frodo is the aura of his inner Spirit grown and sublimated through adversity, death and despair.
The victory of Purity that give him wisdom and clear -sightedness but, to gain it he might have lost a” part of his humanity” too.

As for Frodo's blessing for Sam, that was the blessing of love for his friends and love can make people more percecptive when it concerns the ones they are closed to [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Stone of Vision: your English is better than my French. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] LOL!

Nevertheless, your use of the English language was perfect, for the heart of your message clearly shined through. You offered me, and everyone else, some fine insights of your own. After thoughtfully mulling them over, I can say you are absolutely right with regard to everything you wrote. I can offer no more to what was perfectly stated, except my praise.

Thank you for your kind remarks and your fantastic analysis. Looking forward to your future postings. Cheers!

[Elven-Maiden]

Wow! This is a deep topic! You guys should get PHDs for your essays! I hope you kept a copy, for future reference! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

This is Sharon who posted the original question. Thanks so much for everyone who's sharing their ideas. I've learned a lot.

Raven_Winter and stone of vision --Welcome to the Downs. Your posts are wonderful, full of insight and expression. From your clear explanations and my own understanding of Frodo's character, I can see how the light would be a reflection of Frodo's own spiritual insight and growth, rather than connected with his designation as an Elf-friend.

Raven_winter--You make a clear distinction between the light radiating within an Elf and that reflected on Frodo's face.

Frodo's light is vastly different than that of the Elves. The Elves are practically pure spirit, very close to all Creation and its radiant beauty, as well as its Creators. They glow faintly with "starlight" because it is a mark of their higher nature.

While Frodo's light is different from that of the Elves, I do sense greater similarity between the two than your words may suggest. The Elves definitely occupy a higher place in Creation, and their light is intrinsic to their spirit and nature. The same could not be said of Hobbits or of Frodo. They are a humbler people, one in which both Good and Evil take on simpler forms.

And yet, in accepting the Ring and its inherent burden to battle on both a physical and spiritual plane, Frodo has set himself, by his own free choice, on a path not far different whan that which you have described for the Elves, one that may lead to extraordingary insight and growth. Either Frodo will fail far from Mount Doom and fall into the shadow, or he will become, in nature, more like an Elf, closer to the Creation and its spiritual foundations. I don't think it's coincidence that Faramir notd that Frodo had an "Elvish air" about him. It's just another indication of his special path.

I still think it is amazing that Frodo's face looked "old and beautiful." He had already held the Ring around 18 years, and he had been more aware than Bilbo of its nature. It seems to show how very strong the light was if it could negate the Ring's ability to trap its bearer in a stretched eternal youth, even if that negation was for just a short period while Frodo slept.

It's also interesting to consider just who could and who could not see the light. Gandalf's description of Frodo implies that not all will be able to see it:

He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for those to see that can.

Not surprisingly, Goldberry was able to see the light in Frodo long before his own companions. Later on, not only Gandalf, but also Sam and to some extent Faramir, are also able to see it. But there is another light which Frodo alone came to recognize, with the help of Gandalf, one which was not seen by either Faramir or Sam. That is the light, not physical but figurative, which still flickered hesitatingly in the soul of Gollum.

There is no doubt that Frodo saved himself from the dominion of the Ring by binding himself to both Sam and Gollum in the final stage of his journey. It's not surprising that Frodo would be able to show love and affection to Sam, but the fact that he could be caring to Gollum in this situation is nothing short of amazing. Frodo's generosity and love were so unlikely that even Gollum could not help but respond. The scene in Mordor where Gollum reaches out to touch Frodo's knee and comes within a hair's breadth of repentence is proof of this. In some ways, this was Frodo's greatest moment, more profound than what happened on Mount Doom itself. And it all goes back to the ability to recognize the light.

I think there's one final point that bears mention. I agree wth you, Raven_Winter, that Frodo's own "light" fails to sustain him and he must sail from Grey Havens for healing and peace of mind. The shadow still in his own soul drove him to the West for healing. But along side this shadow were, I believe, other longstanding traits which also drew him along this special path.

From the very beginning of the book, the author envisioned that Frodo was fated to sail to the West. In Sauron Defeated, in Tolkien's earliest notes, the author clearly stated that "when Bingo (i.e. Frodo) returned to the Shire he would make peace, and would then settle down in a little hut on the high green ridge--until one day he goes with the Elves west beyond the towers." This suggests a second motive for going on, separate from the question of making peace in his little hut. Frodo was no longer a simple Hobbit. He had followed the light so far that he could not stop now. I believe he was touched with some of the same sadness and longing the Elves had when they thought of Elven Home across the sea. There the flowers do not fade, death does not come unawares, and all is unspoiled.

Long before Frodo ever started on the quest, he would roam the woods at night and speak with Elves (or so his neighbors rumored); already he had the title Elf-friend. Something in Frodo always longed for a life beyond the conventional--it didn't just happen with his wounding on Mount Doom. There were his visions, including the premonition in Tom's house regarding a distant and lovely green land as well as his comments at Rivendell indicating his longing for the Sea. Sorrow, grief, and the desire for healing definitely played a role, but so too did this longing in Frodo's soul.

Again, thanks for all the help and insight. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

"Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can."

Frodo seems the embodiment of the gift that Galadriel gave to hime - the glass phial with the light of earendil in it - the light of innate goodness shining in the shadow of darkness and evil to light the way for others.

[stone of vision]

Mae goannen piosenniel,

Lovely said [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

"Frodo seems the embodiment of the gift that Galadriel gave to hime - the glass phial with the light of earendil in it - the light of innate goodness shining in the shadow of darkness and evil to light the way for others."

I have the hunch that Galadriel's gift to Frodo foreshadowed what he could have destined to become.
The mighty lady of the enchanted Lorien, knew it, whereas Gandalf and the ones who could already feel Frodo's soul, could only guess it.
What she couldn't foresee was the result.
And what was seen in her mind must have really impressed her because she did take a risk to reveal her true nature to Frodo, considering him in that matter as her equal.

Frodo, the bearer of the ring, the bearer of the light which not only enlightens the characters of the book about the actions of the story but also we, readers,about the pyschology of each them.

Tolkien wouldn't have found better messenger to invite us in his wonderful world. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[stone of vision]

Hey ! me again!

Thanks Raven for the kind reply, ( my english dictionnary is as grateful as me lol!) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
I enjoyed very much this thread and the thoughts of each of you [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
What I do like, is the way this book can suggest so many interpretations depending on the different sentiveness of each readers! That makes my world more colorful and interesting [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Thanks Sharon for letting us express our imagination.

I would like to add somthing about the Frodo/Gollum caring part:
Right, I think Gollum, because he was a ring bearer, is able to notice the light within Frodo. Not conscious that might have play a part of his attraction to Frodo as well as the ring is.
But Gollum and Frodo are in a certain way a-like, one the reverse picture of the other though the hole of the ring.
I remember someone telling: Gollum the evil, is what frodo, the Good could be if he choose the evil path and vice et versa..

In first sight , It seems to be the “manicheen” battle Evil/Good but Tolkien --with scene as--
Quote from an other ringer lover :" Gollum spies Frodo and Sam in the perilous tower
sleeping in the comfort of each other's friendship and trust, he is
changed, even just for a moment. The book says that for a moment you
could almost see the old hobbit he once was. His insatiable thirst
for the ring is momentarily disrupted by the longing for (and memory
of) something deeper and better.”

Or the creazyness of Frodo above the crack of doom consumed by the power of the ring—

reminds our naive minds of –nothing is black or white, that in the awfulest creature a fiber of humanity could exist, and the quest for good doesn’t always means happyness, thinking of Frodo.
I admit I have a thing for Gollum‘s portraying, Tolkien managed to make this despicable creature to look almost human with his weaknesses .
Gollum is the story of someone who belonged to the “human” kind and lost it because of his unability to control all the feelings that made him human.
Gollum's Envy can make him so cunning ! His trick to reach frodo is to recall what few humanity part he has left, Smeagol with the desire to be perfidious.
But what was unexpected - is that Gollum fell in his own trap and just for a moment the mask of the creature Gollum craked!
What is extraordinary is that ,only, WE, readers, are aware of this, Frodo and Sam are sleeping!
And the secret between Gollum and us make him less evil to me so his betrayal affected me deeper!

[Child of the 7th Age]

vision of stone -- it's sharon again. Just wanted to get back on a few points.

I would like to add something about the Frodo/Gollum caring part: Right, I think Gollum, because he was a ringbearer, is able to notice the light within Frodo.

I think that is a good point. Just as Frodo was able to sense and see some things in Galadriel because they both wear rings of power, so too Gollum was probably more sensitive in his relations with Frodo.

I also like your idea that only we, as readers, are aware of the fact that Gollum's mask has cracked since Frodo and Sam are themselves sleeping. When Sam wakes up, he unfortunately assumes something far different. And knowing this secret about Gollum does make me, as a reader, see him in a less evil way.

It's almost as if, for a minute, the reader is given the chance to see and feel things the way Frodo does. Few of us have the light in our being to the same degree as Frodo. Indeed, without this scene, most of our attitudes and responses are probably closer to those of Sam. But, because this scene is known to us and we are given a glimpse of the hobbit buried deep inside Gollum, we can begin to feel and respond in a way which is closer to Frodo.

One other thought. You can even extend this discussion of the light back to the time when Bilbo first acquired the Ring, only it is a different kind of light. Both Bilbo and Frodo extend compassion to Gollum because they are able to see light, only their perceptions and backgrounds were radically different. Let me see if I can get this down.....

When Bilbo meets Gollum, he feels enormously sorry for him. His main image is of light and darkness, when he contrasts the dark loneliness of Gollum's existence in an underground cavern with his own sunny domesticity in the Shire. Because of this perceived contrast in light and dark, he feels pity, stays his sword and does not strike.

When Frodo comes to know Gollum midway in his quest, he is in a very different situation. The light of the Shire and domesticity seem a distant memory, almost without hope of returning, so there is no sunny image to guide Frodo such as Bilbo had. Frodo has only the spiritual light shining through his eyes and the phial of Galadriel. And that spiritual light has been brought at a price. Frodo has felt the pain of loss and the burden of the Ring, and this will only get heavier as he trudges on. Because of this,he can feel pity for the wretched creature. So, unlike Bilbo, whose pity arose from contrasting his situation with that of Gollum, Frodo's compassion grew out of the much stonger emotion of identification. That is another reason why these two characters are alike, or as you put it "the reverse picture of the other through the hole of the Ring." sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[HerenIstarion]

Nice topic,Child [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], and I’d like to make few comments, if you don’t mind [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], and chiefly on Raven_Winter’s post concerning “elffriendliness” and light caused by it.

by raven_winter

The Elves are practically pure spirit,

not then and there, for:

when we name you "Children of
Eru" we do not speak lightly; for that name we do not utter ever
in jest or without full intent. When we speak so, we speak out of knowledge, not out of mere Elvish lore; and we proclaim that ye
are our kin, in a kinship far closer (both of hroa and fea) than
that which binds together all other creatures of Arda, and
ourselves to them.

Finrod to Andreth

hroar of Men and Elves are almost the same, otherwise marriages between them would have been impossible, or, rather, fruitless.

and:

by raven_winter
They glow faintly with "starlight" because it is a mark of their higher nature.

I’d say it marks those wise, sad because of much pain seen and uncorrupt. Starlight glow of Maeglin looks rather doubtful, don’t you think?

As for the higher nature, I’m not quite sure what is meant by that, yet:

But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilúvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subject and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.

Morgoth envies both kindreds, and the spirit of the whole sentence suggests equality of those gifts to both elves and Men, if not in kind, at least in status. Yet, still more:

But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.

This suggests than even the Valar have lesser fate than Men, so what about elves?

by raven_winterAragorn is an Elf-Friend, yet he doesn't shine

Well, neither Frodo, literally speaking, does shine all the way. As was stated here already, he shines for those with eyes to see. Only Goldberry sees it. (mind you, I’m not concerned with later glittering and transparency caused partly by morgul wound and partly by the Ring) Who knows, what would she have said on seeing Aragorn?

by raven_winter
I think that he was trying to comfort Frodo and give him some assurance that the Elves in the surrounding region would hear of his plight and his need for assistance, and further, that the Elves would be on the look-out for him, as well as the Black Riders.

Well, I can’t agree. Gildor says plainly enough, that elves indeed would be on the look out for Frodo, and word will be sent to Wandering Companies. What is the need of repeating thing already talked over in plain words, and in obscure hints at that? Still, calling someone pal does not mean going to rob a bank in his stead, until it is said and agreed. Or suppose I’m an elf wandering through the Shire. I may see many people, and know lot of them, yet they are not the least closer to being named elf-friend than some Stoors left away in the East in the Anduin’s Vale that I have never heard of. They knew Bilbo already in Rivendell, when he first arrived there with dwarves and Gandalf, but he was not an elf-friend until Thranduil entitled him so.

Almost the same can be said about explanation of Goldberry’s words:

by raven_winter

I think that this was simply Goldberry's way of greatly complementing Frodo by comparing him with so fair a race as the Elves and putting him at ease

First of all, to put all of them at ease remark was made, that “nothing passes this door and windows save wind and starlight” (not exact citation, yet something not very short of the mark) Another thing is that, to make a complement, one has to have something to start with. As well as Gandalf can’t burn snow with his wand, you can’t make a sound complement if even the smallest grain of thing to be praised is not there. I would have called a liar any one who dared to say I looked handsome last Sunday, for I looked not [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Same, you don’t suppose Goldberry was lying?

by raven_winter
The light that Frodo perceives in Strider's face when they are standing on the mound of Cerin Amroth -- well, that's just pure love

that maybe true enough, but the word just in the context seems out of place. Remaining in deepest hope I was not harsh as an old crow

truly yours [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[stone of vision]

Lol! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Sharon, I hope I'm not like Medusa the gorgone and would change in stone any living things with a glance! héhéhé [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Just call me Sil, short for silmarillien/silmaril. I would be honored for a stone of vision. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I'm out of topic but
reading Lotr is always a fascinating play for me. I try (never succeed) to "live" and feel the story from one the characters 'side.
My favourites are Frodo, Gollum, Aragorn, Merry, Pipin and Gandalf.

But you can read it zillion times, there are so much perspectives to explore!
I think that every options have its validity according to the different people's pov, giving a touch of brighter light to this oeuvre. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Rosa_Baggins]

hiya people any1 out there?? i haven go much to sa but i jut wontd tosay hello [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Whoops! Stone of Vision vrs. Vision of Stone!! Who says I can type and think at the same time? Not me! Sorry, Sil. And you think you have problems with Englsh.

Yes, I think too there are myriads of different ways of looking at these writings. And although there may be concrete rights or wrongs in our understanding of fact, there are many, many different ways of interpreting things. And isn't it fun?

By the way, my favorites are (in order) Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, and Gollum.

Got to run now. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Enedhil]

Thank you, thank you.

Once again, i say very insightful and interesting thread, although it takes a lot of time to read through!

[Gilthalion]

Really great, great, great, comments!

Heren Istarion beat me to a certain addition of Tolkien lore. As I was reading down the thread, I wanted to add that there were some aspects of Elvish nature that are more greatly manifested in the elves, but that are shared by Men (and Hobbits).

By it Tolkien meant more than a prosey picture of emotion, countenance, purity of spirit, etc.; though these are important components and inseparable from the spiritual/magical aspect of Frodo's light.

It seems to be interaction with Elves (or other "higher" beings or divine purposes) that quickens this aspect in Men (and Hobbits). Frodo, and later Sam's interaction with the Ring was an interaction in that world that left them both changed. This takes place in a fashion beyond words and sight. From Finrod Felagund singing to the first Men he encountered, to Frodo seeing Aragorn as he was in Lothlorien, there is a communication going on that is beyond the natural.

This light of Frodo's is the manifestation of the refining of his spirit in the crucible of his quest. (Or so I think, another of Tolkien's religious harmonies, in any case. I hope I'm not straining a point.)

Another potential element occurs to me. Aragorn was a distant relative of Elrond's through a couple of different elf families, including his brother Elros (who became a long lived mortal). Aragorn also had certain powers of thought that were of elvish kind, if not potency.

Since it was a matter of Hobbit legend (or ancient rumour) that one of the Tooks had taken a fairy for a wife, is it possible that Frodo, best hobbit in the Shire, had some recessive Elvishness pop up in his makeup?

[littlemanpoet]

I am glad, HerenIstarion, that you spoke up. I had the same reservations as you and you answered them well. RavenWinter, I appreciate your insights on the nature of light and how this worked in Frodo. Sil, I am fascinated with your insight on the Frodo/Gollum Ring mirror image. I think it does more justice to the relationship than the good versus evil pov. Sharon, I agree with you regarding the elf-friendness. You described it well, even if you can vision a stone. Stone a vision?

For me it's Sam, Frodo, Sam, Frodo, um, ...
Eowyn, too. Of course, you understand that, Sharon. No? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I enjoyed SOV's idea of the Ring as a mandala of individuation rather than as strictly a thing of evil. That is, it was a primal force that caused the hard choices and perseverance amid harrowing turmoil - I don't thin, I'm saying it well enough, but I was fascinated by stone of vision's insight on that.

[Child of the 7th Age]

There are so many ideas here. I need to come back later when I have more time. Now, just a few thoughts.

Gilthalion--

....there were some aspects of Elvish nature that are more greatly manifested in the elves, but that are shared by Men (and Hobbits).....It seems to be interaction with Evles (or other "higher" being of divine purposes) that quickens this aspect of Men (and Hobbits).....From Finrod Felagund singing to the first Men he encountered, to Frodo seeing Aragorn as he was in Lothlorien, there is a communication ging on that is beyond the natural.

Yes, I instinctively sensed this when I read the book which was why I initially framed the question on this thread. Sometime, my mind seems to be grasping a tiny piece of this and a tiny piece of that from a distant shore, but I have a hard time drawing it together and conceptualizing the whole. Tolkien often does that to me! Just like Niggle, I find it much easier to visualize and draw a single leaf rather than the tree.

I do agree. This is an Age where the figures of the Valar and Eru often seem far away. Few people, if any, have a conscious sense of who Gandalf really is. And, of course, there is nothing which today we might term "revelation". So it would seem that there must be a way for the spirit to break through. And although Elves do not always live up to the best in their character, they do seem to be the ones who were closest to things that go beyond the natural (at least our own limited view of what is natural). And "religious harmonies" is a word I would use to describe these realities, even though such language has no meaning in the context of the Third Age.

All this makes the departure of the Elves at the end of the Third Age even more poignant and, to tell the truth, a little frightening. Man is out there in the Fourth Age seemingly on his own. No revelation yet and no Elves. It must have been harder to find the light. He does have memories of the ancient traditions of Numenor which did encompass some "religious harmonies", but it is still a pretty distant and lonely position to be in. Tolkien once said he couldn't write more about the Fourth Age, because, when compared with the earlier story, it might look trite and debased. But this peculiar interim position of man is a pretty challenging thing! Don't know though if anyone else senses this, or there may be different ways of understanding this?

Since it was a matter of Hobbit legend (or ancient rumor) that one of the Tooks had taken a fairy for a wife, it is possible that Frodo, best hobbit in the shire,had some recessive Elvishness pop up in his makeup.

To tell the truth, and this is REALLY off the top of my head, I've long had a sneakng suspicion about the origin of the Fallohides. There is no way to prove this, but aren't there things that suggest this possibility, at least some small touch of Elvish blood and genes. Of course, the description of the Fallohides sounds very much like it is influenced by the Elves (just as the other two groups of Hobbits sound closer to men and dwarves): tall, slender, blond hair, loving forests and trees, skilled in langage and song. We know Hobbit origin is in the Elder Days in the upper Vales of Anduin. Mightn't some of the Avari who later became the Silvan Elves have come far enough west to come into the Vales of Anduin? (I don't believe there were men in this area in the Elder Days.)

The legend of the Took family marriage with a fairy could be simply an expression of this earlier reality. And we do know Frodo and the Tooks had a strong Fallohide strain. So, yes, Frodo could have connected with this earlier strain and, it might have influenced his attitudes towards Elves (as well as how he physically looked.) And the refining of the spirit and the manifestation of the light could also tie in here in a secondary way. This is certainly wild conjecture but this Fallohide strain could even have had some bearing on why Frodo was selected for his task.( I think there was somewhere that Gandalf cryptically says more is known about the origin of Hobbits, but then sadly doesn't say it.) Of course, all of this is guessing, since there is next to nothing on Hobbit origins in the books.

littlemanpoet--LOL. Yes, I understand. Hope you got my note. My private message function has been acting strange lately so I'm never sure when messages get through.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Birdland]

I do agree. This is an Age where the figures of the Valar and Eru often seem far away.

I often have felt the lack of that in the books, Child. (And please, I'm really not trying to start another T. and the B. thread!) Except for the Elves and their memories, there seems to be no spiritual aspect to any of the cultures of Middle-earth, which semed pretty far-fetched to me. Every culture has their belief systems. Science now even suggests that it is hard-wired into our brains.

Not only are there no spiritual revelations, but no outward trapping of religious ceremony either. No one prays, or seeks guidance from a higher power. Heck, no one even swears! (Ever hear a character say "By the One!" or "By Eru!"?)

The Fallohides may have been aware of the spiritual mythos of Middle-earth, since it seems that they had a closer relationship with Elves, and some of these tales survived into the Third Age. I remember Sam making a reference to knowing the story of Beren One-Hand. But by then, they had degenerated to to the point of being only "fairy tales" told to children, and the Fallohides as a race seemed to have disappeared, blending into and being absorbed by the far more practical "mannish" Harfoots.

Perhaps this explains Frodo's restlessness. He must have wondered "Is this all there is?" And the inner light that is perceived by some is his growing awareness of Eru's Song.

[stone of vision]

Wow, so high level of discussion here! I'm mesmerized [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] my knowledge of Tolkien seems so poor compare to yours.
Thanks littlemanpoet for encouraging me and Sharon, I have a aunt who lives in Houston, it helps a bit with english [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I would like to come back on this famous scene wich :
sharon's quote

"It's almost as if, for a minute, the reader is given the chance to see and feel things the way Frodo does. Few of us have the light in our being to the same degree as Frodo. Indeed, without this scene, most of our attitudes and responses are probably closer to those of Sam. But, because this scene is known to us and we are given a glimpse of the hobbit buried deep inside Gollum, we can begin to feel and respond in a way which is closer to Frodo."

( hehehe, I'm learning, i'm learning... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

What I feel when I read this scene, is not frodo's pov but Gollum's pov.
Tolkien is machiavelic for diving us deeply in the core of Gollum's dark reflect and make us realized, unexpectedly, his inner turmoils could be more than low evil thoughts.

I feel, a flick of humanity, almost forgotten, buried by seductive temptations and awaken from no where by Frodo's behaviour certainly recalling him reminders of his humanity past.

I feel, his sorrow, his sadness, his despair, his weariness not only for him, but also for Frodo.
Because, parodoxically, in that moment, he is allowed to be the best/closest person who could understand Frodo's ordeals and inner battle, experiencing it before him.

I feel, disgust for himself, for his own weakness and cowardice but also fatalism, so long he had been resigned to submitt the ring.

I feel admiration , respect and yes, sympathy for that "twin" of his who chose, in spite all sufferings and loss, to keep on fighting the corruption whereas he had renounced.

The touching knee's gesture may be a repentence gesture, as he has lot to be forgiven if he does want forgiveness, but that may be a mark of honour and rescpect too. The aknowledgement from a proud elder to a younger to keep on going on.

Gollum for me incarnates an ever stortured spirit whose personnality had be broken and torn in thousands pieces by all the passionate feelings inspired by the ring power abilities.

That scattered being might explain the quasi schizophrenic behaviour he had, thinking of gollum/smeagol, the non- human part, servant of the ring and the human one so helpless against it.

Both of them are slaves of their passions. They want to be and are ruled with the illusion they are the one who would rule- ring's perversity-

But in that moment of grace, lost in the worst place ever, they were reunited.
For the first time through ages, it might be possible that gollum unweil his own inner being or maybe "his own light" ? to us, a free thinking human being, lost and spoiled.

I told you Tolkien is machiavelic to imagine that scene which make us, readers pity Gollum -- in that way I joined the idea of frodo's pity awareness Gandalf was talking about- and grieve his loss for the light world.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Birdland -- In several places in Tolkien's Letters, the author talks about the particular question you are raising: why there isn't any evidence of what we would call concrete religious forms and institutions in Middle-earth? If you can get hold of a copy of the letters, look at nos. 142,153,156,165, and 211.

Basically, this is what I understood from reading this material. In the first, second, and third ages, evil ofen took an incarnate form so the chief means for hobbits, elves, men etc. to show allegiance to the good was to physically oppose the incarnate being which was Evil. It was the job of the Valar themselves to praise and adore Eru through their music (a function that today we might term worship).

Plus Tolkien, as a Catholic, wouldn't have felt totally comfortable creating a universe where there was formal worship of entities like Manwe or Arda. The One was viewed as being very remote, and, to quote Tolkien, "all things and beings and powers that might seem worshipful were not to be worshiped, not even the gods (Valar), being only creatures of the One." Different characters may call on these Valar when there are in need (as Sam and Frodo did when fighting), but he says this is more like children calling on their parents when they get into a jam.

Faramir does have a kind of grace before eating a meal. Didn't they stand and face towards the West and remember the significance of these sacred places? This is apparently a remnant of the kind of ritual which had taken place originally in Numenor.

And at the same time Tolkien says the above, he also states in letter 142: "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. This is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like "religion"....For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."

How does this tie into our thread? There is in my opinion, some relationship. Surely, when we are talking about Frodo's face or eyes glowing, we are talking about some form or reflection of his spirit and/or moral refinement going beyond that which is strictly "natural". It's as if the people of Middle-earth didn't need or use the kind of words or rituals we use to express that which goes beyond the natural world. They, or at least some small portion of those indviduals who were specially gifted in this regard, had a kind of direct experience of it which involved symbols like light rather than words.

Again, I'm just talking about my peronal response to the writings, and not some canon about how all people should see this work or respond in some particular fashion. I think the spiritual is there on some level, but not in the forms we are more famiiar with in our own world.

Surely, if one could board the ship at Grey Havens and sail to the Uttermost West, there had to have been a pervasive element of that which we would define as "spiritual" or "magical" depending on our orientation. (I always love the illustration of the ship coming into Elvenhome and Frodo up in the mast looking out, presumably with interest and longing, to see just what he's coming into!)

Anybody else with ideas on this? sharon, the 7th age hobbit

Hi, people! (Sorry if I say somethin' that's already been said; I was going to read the whole disscution, but I got cold feet when I saw how long it was) I think Frodo's face often shone because in a sence he was a Christ-figure, and Christ's face is recorded to have shone alot.
I think Frodo looked old because he was in charge of taking care of all the trouble in middle earth; and that much worrie and care would be enough to make the youngest person look old! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Vana -- Welcome to the Barrowdowns! Post a lot and have fun. Not all threads are as "long-winded" as this one. I should know since I'm the "loong-winded" one who started this thread. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[littlemanpoet]

Stone of vision, thank you for the window into the (couer sp?) heart of Smeagol. Now I want to go back and reread all of it from Gollum's pov. Being a writer myself, I can relate to the machiavelic impulse. However, I don't see it as ONLY machiavelic, I also see it as one of the most poignant, gracious scenes Tolkien ever wrote. To reveal that descendency of darkness and chaos which is Gollum as very human, and beautiful, was a gift.

[stone of vision]

Littlemanpoet:
I use the term "machiavelic" as what we call in France a litote meaning the opposite of what is written. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

So I totally agree with you! Revealing the "coeur" of Smeagol is the most poignant and quivering scene I 've ever read to tears drop.

I love that scene. I'm so thankful to Tolkien for making me feel a pang of sorrow in a such brilliant way!

Ps It took me a few min before understanding I was SOV! lol!
I can be so slow-minded sometimes, héhéhé [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[greyhavener]

This is more a question than a reply. Did Tolkien create Frodo's lineage, the ancient history of Middle Earth, etc. before or after he wrote the LOTR? There are some incredible reponses here and I'm ruminating on them still. I tend to think the Frodo's shine has to do with his nature and that very nature is why he was chosen to bear the ring. Whether that nature is a result of his lineage, his association with the elves, a combination, or something more is like trying to understand how anyone becomes who he or she is. I love all of your speculation and think there are valid observations all around. Thanks for making me think.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Greyhavener--

Did Tolkien create Frodo's lineage the ancient history of Middle-earth, before or after he wrote the LOTR?

I'm unclear what you mean by "Frodo's lineage"? Please clarify, and I'll try to help with information if I can. Do you mean what Tolkien says about the origin of hobbits (which isn't very much) or the general history of middle earth in the earlier ages?

The Silmarillion which traces the history of the earlier ages has virtually nothing to say about hobbits. Many of these stories were written before LOTR, although Tolkien continued working on this material, off and on, right up to his death. Then his son Christopher did the editing, added to the stories, decided which parts to use, etc.

The only real information which Tolkien gives on hobbit origins is in the prologue to the LOTR. This is where he discusses Stoors, Fallohides, and Harfoots, plus their earlier origin in the Vales of Anduin. The appendix of LOTR does have some hobbit pedigrees.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[stone of vision]

Suilad mellyn,

About inner light, i came across a quote that makes me think of Frodo's light.
I would like to share it with you:

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within. Elizabeth Kübler-Ross

Namarié tenn'

[Child of the 7th Age]

Stone of Vision,

Thanks very much for that quotation. Do you know which of her books it is from?

By the way, this is still one of my all time favorite" threads!

sharon

[merlilot]

Yall made me cry!!! Those posts were so insightful and stuff that I was like "oh my gosh! How can they know this much?"
Made me like Frodo again!!!! Now that was no small task.

BTW: maybe i missed this, I only skimmed some of the last ones, but Silmarillien: what is your native language? If I know it, I might be able to help you l little. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[stone of vision]

Ayia!

Sorry Sharon. Dr. Kübler-Ross, wrote over twenty books. I don't even know if it is from one of them...
That quote seems one of her most famous and inspirational ones on the cyberworld and otherwhere.
It was send to me by a good friend of mine who is fighting every day of her life a disease called Scleroderma with a lot of bravery and persistence for many years.

Merlilot, i have learned my awful English in France. "Le français" is my native tongue.
Do you know that some of my kinds qualifies ourself as " les saigneurs des anneaux" ( the bleeders of the rings) as
French people are not skilled at all for foreign languages? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]...lol! sometimes it's very confusing in my mind and i'm
certainly thinking in japano-englo-french- elvish! :P

Mehneg suilad!

Ps so used to be called SOV ( stone of vision) that reading Silmarillien is funny ... and nice [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[stone of vision]

...my kinds qualify ourselves...mmh better?

Ah yes, i forgot to tell you, my English grammary is awful too!! lol! ( especially at midnight time héhéhé)

Time to go to bed for kids [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Have a g'd night all

[merlilot]

Silmarillien: I understand. The way that French is pronounced kinda kills it if you wanna learn another language. Sorry. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] But I may be able to help you a little. That is my most recent language attempt unless you count Elvish. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Good luck on your language endeavours! How do you learn it there? Is it writing and compositional grammar first or speaking first? We do writing, then move up through all the tenses, and then work on speaking. Its the dumbest arrangement I have ever heard of.

*kudos, everyone*

[Tirned Tinnu]

Great discussion here. Just wanted to add that "Light upon the brow" is not a new concept. It often (in fairy stories) was a sign of a person who had been gifted by the Elves (The Fey or Faery Folk) or was endowed with powers to see them.
In the tale of Taliesin, his name is given which means in Welsh, "Behold the Bright Brow". Taliesin was the king of the bards - gifted above all men in song. He is also thought of as the pre-merlin character.
I direct you to read some of the older poems and handed down stories of Wales and Ireland to see the tradition of "bright brows".