Riddles in the Downs - Page 66 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galadriel55 · 05-06-2019, 01:42 PM

The Wrestler kinda makes me think of Finrod, but the rest of the verse doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Urwen · 05-06-2019, 02:07 PM

Maybe this hint will help: All three individuals referenced would play an important role during the Final Battle and the aftermath of it.

Galadriel55 · 05-06-2019, 07:40 PM

In that case the Wrestler must be Tulkas, who also fights Morgoth before Turin kills him.

The Breaker... hmm. The breaking of the Silmarils comes to mind, and reading up on it Yavanna does the act, but it's Feanor who pays the cost, so one of those two perhaps.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

In that case the Wrestler must be Tulkas, who also fights Morgoth before Turin kills him.

The Breaker... hmm. The breaking of the Silmarils comes to mind, and reading up on it Yavanna does the act, but it's Feanor who pays the cost, so one of those two perhaps.

Yes, Tulkas, Turin and Feanor.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yes, Tulkas, Turin and Feanor.

Cheers!

Try this one:

Fool are you to make your shot:
You revealed yourself to foes.
Fool am I to make my shot:
I revealed the secret bridge.
My shot you took from where it fell.
You'll get no thanks though you did well.
So which of us the bigger fool?

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 07:48 AM

How about this?

Fool are you to make your shot:
You revealed yourself to foes. - Turin put on the Dragon Helm, thus revealing himself to Morgoth
Fool am I to make my shot:
I revealed the secret bridge. - Mablung, who revealed the Bridge of Esgalduin to Morwen and Nienor, and by doing so, allowed their doom to find them both (plus Turin)
My shot you took from where it fell. - and Turin, who is responsible for its destruction,
You'll get no thanks though you did well. - and who, in spite of killing Glaurung, can't receive any real thanks for obvious reasons
So which of us the bigger fool?

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 08:26 AM

That's a pretty thorough explanation, but unfortunately not the right one.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 09:34 AM

No clarifications/hints this time around?

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

No clarifications/hints this time around?

After your first guess? There will be, but try at least once more. If you don't have other ideas, I'm happy to give some hints.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 10:43 AM

Well, there are only so many bridges, so unless a bridge isn't really a bridge, I am bound to get it right eventually.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 10:45 AM

I think most of the lines still refer to Turin, but the 'bridge' one refers to Androg......

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 11:04 AM

Gandalf called Pippin a fool when he revealed the Fellowship in Moria, and then he revealed the existence and the location of the Moria's bridge to them.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

I think most of the lines still refer to Turin, but the 'bridge' one refers to Androg......

Turin is not either of the characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Gandalf called Pippin a fool when he revealed the Fellowship in Moria, and then he revealed the existence and the location of the Moria's bridge to them.

You're thinking along the right lines here.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 01:31 PM

Even with that, I can solve only half the riddle, and the shot part still mystifies me even after rereading the scene.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Even with that, I can solve only half the riddle, and the shot part still mystifies me even after rereading the scene.

There are two people, with two shots, and two revelations. Your earlier post alluded to one of the parts described by the riddle; the rest comes from a different scene.

Edit: to help guide you, your post #2612 was half right and half wrong. Part of it is very much on track but part of it is irrelevant.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 02:09 PM

If it's not Pippin, then it must be Frodo, who revealed himself by putting on the Ring.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

If it's not Pippin, then it must be Frodo, who revealed himself by putting on the Ring.

It's not Frodo.

Also, read my responses carefully, as I think you might be misinterpreting them and veering off track again.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 02:51 PM

Wait, when you said I got one of the characters right, you meant Pippin rather than Gandalf, in which case, the bridge isn't one in Moria?

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 03:01 PM

Maybe Aragorn, who lead them across the bridge, and Pippin, who revealed them to the enemy.....

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 03:13 PM

You have correctly identified Pippin in Moria as one of the characters/events, though you haven't quite tied in all the bits together (btw, do you know which one, "I" or "you"? This may help you find the second one).

Remember that the second person is also a fool of sorts, and I don't think Aragorn could be called that, definitely not in the Bridge of Khazad-dum passages you refer to.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 03:26 PM

I think Pippin is 'I', because there is no mention of him revealing a bridge.

Unless you mean that his actions prompted Gandalf to hurry and reach the bridge, in which case, he would be 'you'.

Which further proves my theory that it could be Denethor, who tried to burn his own son alive.....

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

I think Pippin is 'I', because there is no mention of him revealing a bridge.

Umm... read the riddle carefully. You're confusing who does what. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but "I" is the one linked with revealing a bridge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

The Elven-Brooch comes to mind, but that still points to Aragorn, for he picked it up.

Ditto. You're doing the right thing, thinking of incidences where "you" and "I" could interact in a "taking the shot from where it fell". But first figure out which end of the interaction Pippin is on, which goes back to the above part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Or it could be Denethor, who tried to burn his own son alive.....

I am a little confused by where this came from, but it's not the answer.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

I think Pippin is 'I', because there is no mention of him revealing a bridge.

Unless you mean that his actions prompted Gandalf to hurry and reach the bridge, in which case, he would be 'you'.

Which further proves my theory that it could be Denethor, who tried to burn his own son alive.....

Just saw this edited version. Still confused about why you think Denethor. Still urge you to read the riddle carefully and map out what you know about "you" and "I", cause you seem to be jumping between them within the first statement.

Let's see if you can trace the second person back from what you already know. It might help you to get the exact details that are relevant to Pippin's part in the story (e.g. what is his shot? What was revealed?); once you have that straight it will be easier to place him into a I/you role, and thus make it easier to solve the remaining one.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

I edited my post to include this:

Better?

See above, I replied to your edit.

Still not hitting the answer, and I'm not sure how you conclude Denethor from that so I can't comment on your thought process there.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 03:42 PM

Well, if Pippin is I, then he revealed the bridge. But who did he meet that revealed themselves to the enemy.

Then again, if I am right......

Well, one of your hints said that it wasn't Aragorn during the Moria scene. You never said it isn't Aragorn, period. Therefore, it could be that 'you' is Aragorn, who revealed himself to Sauron.

If Pippin is 'you', then he revealed the Fellowship's location to the enemy, but that still leaves the problem of who revealed the bridge.....

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, if Pippin is I, then he revealed the bridge. But who did he meet that revealed themselves to the enemy.

Then again, if I am right......

Well, one of your hints said that it wasn't Aragorn during the Moria scene. You never said it isn't Aragorn, period. Therefore, it could be that 'you' is Aragorn, who revealed himself to Sauron.

If Pippin is 'you', then he revealed the Fellowship's location to the enemy, but that still leaves the problem of who revealed the bridge.....

You're thinking the right way, just not the right events. Some points to help your thinking:
1. It's not Aragorn, period. (but that's a great example that I haven't thought of! Kudos for coming up with that!)
2. As far as I am concerned, Pippin did not reveal the bridge of Moria. So don't use that point to determine his role and connection.
3. You did allude to something else related to Pippin that will be more useful to you.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 03:58 PM

So then, the 'I' character is connected to the Elven brooch. And the only characters connected to it are Galadriel, Merry, and the Three Hunters.

You also said that the other characters is considered a 'fool' of sorts, and Merry revealed the existence of Brandywine bridge.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

So then, the 'I' character is connected to the Elven brooch. And the only characters connected to it are Galadriel, Merry, and the Three Hunters.

That's not the post I was thinking of. Read back to what you posted before. You did not name the event outright but you alluded to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

You also said that the other characters is considered a 'fool' of sorts, and Merry revealed the existence of Brandywine bridge.

Well, Merry did some foolish things, but his foolishness is not connected to the Brandywine Bridge.

I was holding off on saying this, thinking that you'd figure it out, but I think you deserve this for your efforts. Don't fixate on the bridge. You won't be able to name it even if you search the maps for all the bridges. It will become clear when you match the right people and events, but you will not be able to find it by elimination. So, I guess my suggestion is, don't work forward from the bridge; look through your Pippin posts and work forward from him, and the bridge detail will fall in place last.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 04:14 PM

Well, the things I alluded to were that he revealed the Fellowship, that he dropped the Elven Brooch and that he was called a fool by Gandalf.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, the things I alluded to were that he revealed the Fellowship, that he dropped the Elven Brooch and that he was called a fool by Gandalf.

Yes. Think about that.

Maybe consider the details around these events. Like, you're still missing the "shot" element. Which of these events can satisfy that line?

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 04:19 PM

Well, the closest I could think of is when he threw the rock into the well.

Wait, something just occurred to me. Let's see whether I am on the right track here and not merely confusing the events in the book with those in the movie.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, the closest I could think of is when he threw the rock into the well.

Wait, something just occurred to me. Let's see whether I am on the right track here and not merely confusing the events in the book with those in the movie.

Ok, I'll wait with replying to that to see what was the lightbulb that went off just now.

(Or can answer regarding your first point now if you wish

)

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 04:23 PM

Just as I thought. The stone throws. In which case, 'I' would be Boromir.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Just as I thought. The stone throws. In which case, 'I' would be Boromir.

Ohhh, another good example, but sadly not the one in the riddle. A very well-fitting one with the foolish shot (except for the last bit where the interaction occurs).

I can, however, confirm you are correct with Pippin and the incident at the well.

So, can you now place Pippin as either "you" or "I" definitively, given the added info you now have? Then carefully read the interaction between the characters - how do they intersect. And you will find the other one.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 04:29 PM

Pippin is 'you'.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Pippin is 'you'.

Ok.

Now, how can you connect Pippin to these lines?
My shot you took from where it fell.
You'll get no thanks though you did well.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 04:35 PM

There wer sounds that were heard from down below, after the rock fell into the water. My guess is that those sounds were made by 'I' character.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 04:41 PM

Therefore, 'I' is Gollum.

Galadriel55 · 05-07-2019, 04:42 PM

Not Gollum.

As I said before, there are two different shots made by two different people in different events. There is a factor that ties them together, and it's in the lines I pointed out to you.

Urwen · 05-07-2019, 04:45 PM

That was the last lead I had.

ETA: Wait. I was mistaken. Pippin is you, meaning nobody took his shot, he took someone else.

In which case, 'I' is Grima, who literally threw the Palantir that Pippin took.

05-06-2019, 01:42 PM	#2601
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,308	The Wrestler kinda makes me think of Finrod, but the rest of the verse doesn't make a lot of sense to me. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

05-06-2019, 02:07 PM	#2602
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Maybe this hint will help: All three individuals referenced would play an important role during the Final Battle and the aftermath of it. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-06-2019, 07:40 PM	#2603
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,308	In that case the Wrestler must be Tulkas, who also fights Morgoth before Turin kills him. The Breaker... hmm. The breaking of the Silmarils comes to mind, and reading up on it Yavanna does the act, but it's Feanor who pays the cost, so one of those two perhaps. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

05-07-2019, 07:48 AM	#2606
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	How about this? Fool are you to make your shot: You revealed yourself to foes. - Turin put on the Dragon Helm, thus revealing himself to Morgoth Fool am I to make my shot: I revealed the secret bridge. - Mablung, who revealed the Bridge of Esgalduin to Morwen and Nienor, and by doing so, allowed their doom to find them both (plus Turin) My shot you took from where it fell. - and Turin, who is responsible for its destruction, You'll get no thanks though you did well. - and who, in spite of killing Glaurung, can't receive any real thanks for obvious reasons So which of us the bigger fool? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 05-07-2019 at 07:59 AM.

05-07-2019, 08:26 AM	#2607
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,308	That's a pretty thorough explanation, but unfortunately not the right one. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

05-07-2019, 09:34 AM	#2608
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	No clarifications/hints this time around? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 10:43 AM	#2610
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Well, there are only so many bridges, so unless a bridge isn't really a bridge, I am bound to get it right eventually. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 10:45 AM	#2611
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	I think most of the lines still refer to Turin, but the 'bridge' one refers to Androg...... __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 11:04 AM	#2612
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Gandalf called Pippin a fool when he revealed the Fellowship in Moria, and then he revealed the existence and the location of the Moria's bridge to them. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 01:31 PM	#2614
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Even with that, I can solve only half the riddle, and the shot part still mystifies me even after rereading the scene. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 02:09 PM	#2616
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	If it's not Pippin, then it must be Frodo, who revealed himself by putting on the Ring. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 02:51 PM	#2618
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Wait, when you said I got one of the characters right, you meant Pippin rather than Gandalf, in which case, the bridge isn't one in Moria? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 03:01 PM	#2619
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Maybe Aragorn, who lead them across the bridge, and Pippin, who revealed them to the enemy..... __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 03:13 PM	#2620
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,308	You have correctly identified Pippin in Moria as one of the characters/events, though you haven't quite tied in all the bits together (btw, do you know which one, "I" or "you"? This may help you find the second one). Remember that the second person is also a fool of sorts, and I don't think Aragorn could be called that, definitely not in the Bridge of Khazad-dum passages you refer to. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

05-07-2019, 03:26 PM	#2621
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	I think Pippin is 'I', because there is no mention of him revealing a bridge. Unless you mean that his actions prompted Gandalf to hurry and reach the bridge, in which case, he would be 'you'. Which further proves my theory that it could be Denethor, who tried to burn his own son alive..... __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 05-07-2019 at 03:29 PM.

05-07-2019, 03:42 PM	#2625
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Well, if Pippin is I, then he revealed the bridge. But who did he meet that revealed themselves to the enemy. Then again, if I am right...... Well, one of your hints said that it wasn't Aragorn during the Moria scene. You never said it isn't Aragorn, period. Therefore, it could be that 'you' is Aragorn, who revealed himself to Sauron. If Pippin is 'you', then he revealed the Fellowship's location to the enemy, but that still leaves the problem of who revealed the bridge..... __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 03:58 PM	#2627
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	So then, the 'I' character is connected to the Elven brooch. And the only characters connected to it are Galadriel, Merry, and the Three Hunters. You also said that the other characters is considered a 'fool' of sorts, and Merry revealed the existence of Brandywine bridge. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 04:14 PM	#2629
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Well, the things I alluded to were that he revealed the Fellowship, that he dropped the Elven Brooch and that he was called a fool by Gandalf. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 04:19 PM	#2631
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Well, the closest I could think of is when he threw the rock into the well. Wait, something just occurred to me. Let's see whether I am on the right track here and not merely confusing the events in the book with those in the movie. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 04:23 PM	#2633
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Just as I thought. The stone throws. In which case, 'I' would be Boromir. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 04:29 PM	#2635
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Pippin is 'you'. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 04:35 PM	#2637
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	There wer sounds that were heard from down below, after the rock fell into the water. My guess is that those sounds were made by 'I' character. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 04:41 PM	#2638
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Therefore, 'I' is Gollum. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-07-2019, 04:42 PM	#2639
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,308	Not Gollum. As I said before, there are two different shots made by two different people in different events. There is a factor that ties them together, and it's in the lines I pointed out to you. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

05-07-2019, 04:45 PM	#2640
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	That was the last lead I had. ETA: Wait. I was mistaken. Pippin is you, meaning nobody took his shot, he took someone else. In which case, 'I' is Grima, who literally threw the Palantir that Pippin took. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 05-07-2019 at 04:48 PM.