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03-08-2009, 04:33 PM | #1 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
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Inevitability of death (revisited)
OK, this is my first attempt at necromancy, conjuring up a dead thread from the underworld.
I just stumbled over davem's old thread 'Its about death, the inevitability of death' (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5898), a truly fascinating read. One aspect that activated my little grey cells was this: Quote:
But there's more to it. I don't have Morgoth's Ring at hand to check (as usual), but somehow I got the impression from it that Aman was the last remnant of Arda Unmarred in this world, the only part of the world not tainted by Morgoth (or at least the thing coming closest to AU), and that death and decay were introduced into the world by the Marrer. I may be mistaken in this (in which case I would gladly see my misconception demolished), but if I'm not, AU would have been a stranger world than we can imagine - a world in which nothing ever would have died, except for Men???
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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03-08-2009, 04:56 PM | #2 |
Flame of the Ainulindalė
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I'm afraid there's a blatant answer to your question and that is that the prof had no idea of those kind of things modern biology tells us - or didn't bother about thinking of them in relation to his mythology; they are not something to concern a person writing a mythology anyway.
But the world "after the fall" looks like familiar post-books of Moses-world where the humans have fallen to the primordial sin and everything's different from the paradise that once was... Maybe decaying had no part in the natural renewal of the nature in the West?
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
03-08-2009, 06:22 PM | #3 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
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Quote:
You're right, of course, mentioning the Fall and primordial sin in this context. For me, as a non-Christian, the dream of a pre-Fall paradise without death (and its possible restoration after Judgment Day?) is one of the most fascinating, as well as one of the most puzzling, aspects of Christianity. Judging from his writings on Aman, I get the impression that JRRT somehow shared this dream (even though he criticized the Elves for trying to realize it within the Fallen World of Middle-Earth). On the other hand, from everything else he wrote I get the impression of somebody who had a very close, personal, emotional and realistic (whatever that may mean) relationship with nature as we know it; and I just don't know how to fit these two aspects together (or, what is the same, I wonder how they fitted together in his mind, if he was at all conscious of the problem).
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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03-08-2009, 06:39 PM | #4 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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Very interesting thread. What if we posit that none of the beings or entities or artifacts or anything else is actually 'physical?' What if they are more energy-like than matter-like? Maybe this is why Aman would be deadly to those mortals that were tied to the physical world - elves could leave and pick up their physical husks at the door, at will, maybe.
Don't have the equations in front of me either, but what if we could remove 'time' from every physics/mathematical description of the world? Yes, I know I'm just throwing words up into the air, hoping that when they land there's some order to them. As this question relates to Creationism, I've always found it somewhat amusing the pretzels that must be twisted to allow for Adam, Eve and other animals and plants to live - to consume and release energy - yet not allow for any decay in Paradise's Garden. Ah, without E. coli, many things not named 'rose' would smell just as sweet.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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03-08-2009, 07:28 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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I myself have wondered about certain contradictions in a truly "deathless" Valinor. The Ainur and Elves may reproduce little or not at all, but what about the flora and fauna? It seemed an odd thing to me, until I remembered that Melkor marred the Music even before Ea was created. If Ea, and Arda, are indeed the Music made manifest, precisely as it was sung, then it never was "perfect." Melkor's attempts to make it wholly his own after the Ainur entered Ea certainly made things worse, but as Men were also a part of the Music (and presumably their Gift as well), then I would think death has always been a part of the world made from the Song. Tolkien did also make it clear that Valinor itself was not really deathless, but that the presence of the immortal Powers gave the place its apparent lack of death and decay. The very power that makes Aman seem immortal and unchanging would present a danger to mortals (as the flame that attracts moths also kills them, as I believe was noted in the Akallabeth). Men, especially those who strayed from their belief in Eru, feared death, and thus anything that seems to have what they can't -- eternal physical life -- is seen as being perfect. Aman appears to be a paradise, but for those who live there, it's really a gilded cage. The Elves and Ainur cannot die and leave the circles of the world, as Men do (Elves because they were made that way, the Ainur because they are bound to remain within Ea until its end), and Tolkien did say that before the end, even they would grow weary of life and its burden. So you really have two sides that eventually will envy and covet what the other has, immortality and death.
Well, that's how it all seems to me, at any rate.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. John Stewart Mill |
03-08-2009, 07:40 PM | #6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
life caused by wearing a silmaril. And did Valinor have seasons? Without them I'd think it would be relatively uninteresting, like living (long-term) in a boring climate like Hawaii. I'd much prefer somewhere like Minnesota or Argentina to Hawaii climate wise, especially if you're there elfwise for milennia.
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' |
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03-09-2009, 11:16 AM | #7 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
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Quote:
I remember reading somewhere that the natural life of say a flower or a bee would also be much prolonged in the hallowed Aman compared to the outside world however, and that a mortal man would seem to whither away very quickly compared to other things in hallowed Aman, although his life wouldn't actually be cut short.
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 03-09-2009 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Added a few things I initially forgot |
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