The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > Haudh-en-Ndengin
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-13-2003, 07:58 AM   #1
Iarhen
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Laurelindorenan
Posts: 225
Iarhen has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril "Three Rings for the Elven Kings UNDER THE SKY"

What does this mean? "Under the sky"?

Ive always wondered what this means. Does it mean that the rings are for the Elven Kings outside Valinor? Then Valinor is "above" the sky? Because I always thought that when Eru removed Valinor, it remained on the planet, only on a different and hidden location. The boats then could sail towards the lands.

But, again, if the quote reffers to the fact that Valinor is above the sky... Because the other remaining Elven Kings are the ones left in Valinor...

What do you think?
__________________
"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!"
--- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.
Iarhen is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 08:10 AM   #2
Carlas
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Carlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lost in the Fog of the Downs
Posts: 386
Carlas has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Carlas
Sting

'Under the sky' is exactly that, under the sky. But it does not mean that Valinor is in the sky, the bearers of those rings end up going to Valinor, which is under the sky. Also, elves are not in one spot, they are situated in many different areas(Rivendell,Lothlorien,etc). I think it shows that elves are found in many places in Middle-Earth and out.
__________________
七転八起...
Carlas is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 08:20 AM   #3
Iarhen
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Laurelindorenan
Posts: 225
Iarhen has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

The 3 rings for the elven kings under the sky remain being the 3 rings of elven power as long as the One Ring exists. When the elven kings go to Valinor, the rings are not anymore what they used to be. They do not have power anymore, so when the elven kings go to Valinor, the rings are not anymore...

And yes, I presume Valinor is above the sky, to avoid any further plots being schemed against the Valar by Sauron.
__________________
"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!"
--- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.
Iarhen is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 11:15 AM   #4
Malva Headstrong
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 53
Malva Headstrong has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
when the elven kings go to Valinor, the rings are not anymore
But when Gil-galad died (went to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor) Vilya kept its power. I don´t think that the "sky" refers to Valinor ´cause in some part of "The Council of Elrond" Gandalf says, that the great rings belong the ME, not to Valinor. Maybe "under the sky" shows the differences between elves and man, "doomed to die".

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Malva Headstrong ]
__________________
Credo quia absurdum. (Augustinus)
Malva Headstrong is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 11:25 AM   #5
Birdland
Ghastly Neekerbreeker
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto
Posts: 1,757
Birdland has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

"Under the sky" is just a poetic concept, coming from beliefs that the universe is made of levels, Heaven, Earth, and the Underworld. Mortals are standing on the Earth, with Heaven above. Therefore we are "under the sky".
Birdland is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 11:37 AM   #6
Mornie Alantie
Wight
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Somewhere above earth cause people say i should come down to it
Posts: 226
Mornie Alantie has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I agree that the sky has some ME elven concept but I also think that it is just something poetic.
__________________
Instead of pepper spray, you pack a glass bottle and scream "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!!!" at muggers.
Mornie Alantie is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 11:43 AM   #7
Iarhen
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Laurelindorenan
Posts: 225
Iarhen has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Even though Gil Galad died, Vilya kept its power because it was not tied to the life force of its bearer.

And I know it has some poetic sense in it, but it has to do something with the remaining elves on M.E. The other quotes that go after the description of the other groups of rings mean something about the races that hold them.

"for men, who above all desire power"

etc.
__________________
"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!"
--- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.
Iarhen is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 12:11 PM   #8
Valarungol
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

Quote:
Because I always thought that when Eru removed Valinor, it remained on the planet, only on a different and hidden location. The boats then could sail towards the lands ...
Is Valinor on the planet? I really don't think so. The Planet only exists because the Valar bent the world into a sphere so that humans could never sail into the undying lands. Valar then would seem to be neither upon the surface of the earth, nor simply floating out in space. The business of sailing the straight road clearly implies (at least to me) and Valinor is outside of the reality of ME. That is, it's in an alternate plane of existence.
 
Old 03-13-2003, 04:07 PM   #9
the guy who be short
Shadowed Prince
 
the guy who be short's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,496
the guy who be short has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

i always thought under the sky just meant that elves lived under the sky in the open, rather than dwarves in their halls of stone. maybe he's simply comparing them without valinor in mind?
the guy who be short is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 04:59 PM   #10
Inderjit Sanghera
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 716
Inderjit Sanghera has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Is Valinor on the planet? I really don't think so.
It is still on Arda.

As for the question, I think it was just a poetic reference, as Tolkien muses over the ring verse many times, in early draftings. (HoME 6)and uses lines like "under moon and star"
__________________
“If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube.

"Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone
Inderjit Sanghera is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 08:24 PM   #11
Lindril Arvilya
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars
Posts: 336
Lindril Arvilya has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

It rhymes nicely.
__________________
Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!
Lindril Arvilya is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 08:32 PM   #12
Lush
Fair and Cold
 
Lush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the big onion
Posts: 1,803
Lush is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to Lush Send a message via AIM to Lush Send a message via Yahoo to Lush
Hey guys, I was wondering what the word "Kings" in the title of this thread refers to, and whether or not that's a subtle hint that Thranduil was meant to have one of the rings, but didn't, or perhaps a reference to Galadriel's appearance, or maybe an allegory that involves Elvis somehow?
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~
Lush is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 08:47 PM   #13
Iarwain
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Birnham Wood
Posts: 808
Iarwain has just left Hobbiton.
Boots

Hmm. What do I think?

I agree with Lush. Definately talking about Elvis there.

Come on guys! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Look at the line after that:

"Seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone"

He's just making a simple relationship about where they live. Elves live out in the open, under the sky, and dwarves live in caves, in their halls of stone. Men are completely different, so he has to change the theme at line three. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarwain
__________________
"And what are oaths but words we say to God?"
Iarwain is offline  
Old 03-13-2003, 10:56 PM   #14
GlingleglingleglingleFairy
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 35
GlingleglingleglingleFairy has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I think 'under the sky' refers to the fact that Elves love the stars and wide, free-ness so they are under the sky and not bottled up or hidden somewhere.
__________________
"Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement, even the very wisest cannot forsee all ends."

Some people prefer cupcakes. I for one care less for them.
GlingleglingleglingleFairy is offline  
Old 03-14-2003, 12:52 PM   #15
Lindril Arvilya
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars
Posts: 336
Lindril Arvilya has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Heh. Bottled Elves. Get yours here.
__________________
Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!
Lindril Arvilya is offline  
Old 03-14-2003, 05:32 PM   #16
lilith
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

Just another word to Valinor. I always pictured it as being in the "sky". I remember that when the Valar reshaped Arda after the Fall of Numenor they removed Valinor. Arda was flat in the First Age, then it is described as a round "planet". Therefore you need to go on the straight way to Valinor, to any "earthly" place you need to follow the circle.

Now to the question asked in the topic:
I always thought that under the sky is a reference to their awaikening under the sky full of stars. It is a sky by night in my mind.
But hey, I'm free to all interpretations.

ciao lilith
 
Old 03-15-2003, 09:04 AM   #17
Inderjit Sanghera
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 716
Inderjit Sanghera has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Valar reshaped Arda after the Fall of Numenor they removed Valinor.
Eru reshaped Arda not the Valar. As we can see in 'Myths Transformed' (HoME 10) Tolkien was beggining to work in a policy, which didn't incorporate the flat--->round earth theory.
__________________
“If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube.

"Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone
Inderjit Sanghera is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:53 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.