The Untouchables - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eruwen · 12-02-2002, 08:58 PM

Ok. I think I might know the answer to my own question, but I'm not quite sure. The other day when I was watching LOTR, my mom kept on asking me all of these questions. Two of them were kinda hard for me to explain.

1. Why didn't Sauron die when they defeated him in the battle of the Last Alliance?

2. Why can't Gandalf touch the ring?

Number 1 I think I answered ok. I told her that it was somewhat like his soul was attached to this ring where even if he could not take physical form, his spirit still lived because the ring lived. Was I right on this?

And Number 2 I'm not so sure about. In the movie, they show Gandalf reaching down to pick up the ring in Bag-End, but he sees the Eye and doesn't touch it. Is it just that he doesn't WANT to touch it, or can he NOT touch it. And if he can't why not?

Can anyone help me on these?

Aylwen Dreamsong · 12-02-2002, 09:01 PM

He fears to be tempted by the ring. He knows that he will 'try to use the powers for good.' but using it, it would wield a power too great for him to contain. Something along those lines. I know how you feel though, my dad's friend asks me LotR questions non-stop. Maybe someone else could answer your second question better, but I think it is something like that.

Hope I helped a little
Aylwen

Manwe Sulimo · 12-02-2002, 09:07 PM

Good answer, Aylwen. Gandalf is too cautious to touch the Ring, for fear that it would consume and turn him into a Dark Lord as Sauron was....only worse. Sorta like Galadriel's "in his place you would put a Queen..."

Eruwen · 12-02-2002, 09:12 PM

Yeah. That's what I was thinking. But I just wasn't too sure. So, thanx for your help

Gandalf_theGrey · 12-02-2002, 09:20 PM

* enters, bows a friendly greeting to all present *

Indeed, as Manwe Sulimo says, Aylwen's answer to Eruwen's second question is indeed a good and soothful one.

On a personal note, last year, before seeing the movie and without having seen the scene in any trailer ... I dreamed that scene, about the Ring. It was so eerily similar that when I watched it on the movie screen, I jumped in horror. Only, my dream was worse, because in the dream I touched the Ring. It overpowered me so quickly and intensely that I woke myself up from the dream in under a minute, unable to stand it. I shall not describe the effects beyond what you already know.

Hobbits are known for simplicity, wizards for the opposite of simplicity ... namely, subtlety. Thus it should not be surprising that whereas Hobbits possess an amazing resistance to the Ring and can long endure against its effects ...

Well, this is a subject as harsh and grating to the ear as the Black Speech on even the clearest of days.

Gandalf the Grey

LePetitChoux · 12-03-2002, 11:49 AM

I think Gandalf sees the Eye because he

has a ring of power himself
is so powerful that he can see Sauron's mind anyway, palantir-style....did that meke sense?

That's my contribution, anyway. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Manwe Sulimo · 12-03-2002, 03:14 PM

Gandalf and Sauron are "kin", of sorts; both are Maiar. While we don't (to the best of my knowledge) know Sauron's history (in Aman), he may very well have been one of Manwë's or Lórien's handservants, which is how Gandalf knew him well enough to "fear him greatly".

the real findorfin · 12-03-2002, 03:22 PM

Sauron was in fact Aule's maia, until he became anamoured of the dark.

Interesting, don't you think, that both Sauron and Saruman are maia of Aule and turn evil, and that Feanor is closest to Aule of all the Valar and his jewels inspire evil.

It all comes back to having too many possesions or coveting things is bad for you.

Eruwen · 12-04-2002, 10:59 AM

Sauron's a Maia? I thought he was one of the Valar. Ya know, like Manwe and Varda. Because I thought it said in the Silm. that he was one of the Valar, one of the Lords, but he was unable to continue due to his turn of evil. Or does it say that he is a Maia sometime later in the book that I havn't got ot yet?

*Varda* · 12-04-2002, 11:56 AM

Sauron was a Maia, at no point in the Silmarillion does it say he was one of the Valar.

Perhaps you're getting confused with Morgoth, who was one of the Valar until he was cast from that position.

InklingElf · 12-04-2002, 12:48 PM

Remember that Sauron was a follower of Melkor and that is one explanation for his "maia-hood" Sauron is a Maia just like Gandalf and Saruman-the only difference is his evil

LePetitChoux · 12-04-2002, 01:34 PM

And that he doesn't have a beard or a staff, just a big eye. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Aramacil · 12-04-2002, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Sauron is a Maia just like Gandalf and Saruman-the only difference is his evil

Isn't Saruman a little bit evil? ( because he tried to take over the world [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Aramacil ]

InklingElf · 12-06-2002, 02:25 PM

-LePetit- yeah he does have one eye-harharhar [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

-Armacil-Yes, he did try to take over the world-which shows his lust for power like Sauron-so plainly he his evil-It was revealed by Gandalf himself

12-02-2002, 08:58 PM	#1
Eruwen Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 892	The Untouchables Ok. I think I might know the answer to my own question, but I'm not quite sure. The other day when I was watching LOTR, my mom kept on asking me all of these questions. Two of them were kinda hard for me to explain. 1. Why didn't Sauron die when they defeated him in the battle of the Last Alliance? 2. Why can't Gandalf touch the ring? Number 1 I think I answered ok. I told her that it was somewhat like his soul was attached to this ring where even if he could not take physical form, his spirit still lived because the ring lived. Was I right on this? And Number 2 I'm not so sure about. In the movie, they show Gandalf reaching down to pick up the ring in Bag-End, but he sees the Eye and doesn't touch it. Is it just that he doesn't WANT to touch it, or can he NOT touch it. And if he can't why not? Can anyone help me on these?

12-02-2002, 09:01 PM	#2
Aylwen Dreamsong The Melody of Misery Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Island of Conclusions (You get there by jumping!)... Posts: 1,147	He fears to be tempted by the ring. He knows that he will 'try to use the powers for good.' but using it, it would wield a power too great for him to contain. Something along those lines. I know how you feel though, my dad's friend asks me LotR questions non-stop. Maybe someone else could answer your second question better, but I think it is something like that. Hope I helped a little Aylwen __________________ ...Come down now, they'll say. But everything looks perfect from far away - Come down now! But we'll stay.

12-02-2002, 09:07 PM	#3
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Good answer, Aylwen. Gandalf is too cautious to touch the Ring, for fear that it would consume and turn him into a Dark Lord as Sauron was....only worse. Sorta like Galadriel's "in his place you would put a Queen..." __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-03-2002, 11:49 AM	#6
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	I think Gandalf sees the Eye because he has a ring of power himself is so powerful that he can see Sauron's mind anyway, palantir-style....did that meke sense? That's my contribution, anyway. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

12-03-2002, 03:14 PM	#7
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Gandalf and Sauron are "kin", of sorts; both are Maiar. While we don't (to the best of my knowledge) know Sauron's history (in Aman), he may very well have been one of Manwë's or Lórien's handservants, which is how Gandalf knew him well enough to "fear him greatly". __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-02-2002, 09:12 PM	#4
Eruwen Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 892	Yeah. That's what I was thinking. But I just wasn't too sure. So, thanx for your help

12-02-2002, 09:20 PM	#5
Gandalf_theGrey Visionary Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 633	* enters, bows a friendly greeting to all present * Indeed, as Manwe Sulimo says, Aylwen's answer to Eruwen's second question is indeed a good and soothful one. On a personal note, last year, before seeing the movie and without having seen the scene in any trailer ... I dreamed that scene, about the Ring. It was so eerily similar that when I watched it on the movie screen, I jumped in horror. Only, my dream was worse, because in the dream I touched the Ring. It overpowered me so quickly and intensely that I woke myself up from the dream in under a minute, unable to stand it. I shall not describe the effects beyond what you already know. Hobbits are known for simplicity, wizards for the opposite of simplicity ... namely, subtlety. Thus it should not be surprising that whereas Hobbits possess an amazing resistance to the Ring and can long endure against its effects ... Well, this is a subject as harsh and grating to the ear as the Black Speech on even the clearest of days. Gandalf the Grey

12-03-2002, 03:22 PM	#8
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Sauron was in fact Aule's maia, until he became anamoured of the dark. Interesting, don't you think, that both Sauron and Saruman are maia of Aule and turn evil, and that Feanor is closest to Aule of all the Valar and his jewels inspire evil. It all comes back to having too many possesions or coveting things is bad for you. __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

12-04-2002, 10:59 AM	#9
Eruwen Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 892	Sauron's a Maia? I thought he was one of the Valar. Ya know, like Manwe and Varda. Because I thought it said in the Silm. that he was one of the Valar, one of the Lords, but he was unable to continue due to his turn of evil. Or does it say that he is a Maia sometime later in the book that I havn't got ot yet?

12-04-2002, 11:56 AM	#10
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	Sauron was a Maia, at no point in the Silmarillion does it say he was one of the Valar. Perhaps you're getting confused with Morgoth, who was one of the Valar until he was cast from that position. __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

12-04-2002, 12:48 PM	#11
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	Remember that Sauron was a follower of Melkor and that is one explanation for his "maia-hood" Sauron is a Maia just like Gandalf and Saruman-the only difference is his evil

12-04-2002, 01:34 PM	#12
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	And that he doesn't have a beard or a staff, just a big eye. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

12-06-2002, 02:25 PM	#14
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	-LePetit- yeah he does have one eye-harharhar [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] -Armacil-Yes, he did try to take over the world-which shows his lust for power like Sauron-so plainly he his evil-It was revealed by Gandalf himself