Tolkien's Understanding of Eru

[Neurion]

I've always felt that Eru Illuvatar in Tolkien's works is meant to be a more or less direct reference to God in the Judeo-Christian tradition, but I'm wondering exactly what Tolkien himself ever might have said regarding Eru's nature. The Wikipedia article for Eru Illuvatar suggests that Tolkien considered Eru to actually be God, though viewed from the perspective of a fictional culture far in the past, and has this nifty quote from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien -

"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysic — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!"

- but I wonder, did Tolkien ever write anything else of this nature?

[Eönwë]

I think that Eru is the One, the divine prescense behind everything

But I have a question that has been bugging me since I first read the silmarillion:
Are the Ainur (Valar and Maiar) angels or gods in their own right?

[Thenamir]

This is a most interesting question, Neurion, and an intriguing quote to go along with it. I hope that it will generate some new discussions ans research into JRRT's thought processes.

That being said, there have been a number of similar threads on similar topics involving Tolkien's views on religion which have devolved into some passionate, and heated discussions on the views of those who post here rather than of the subject at hand. A couple of searches might turn up som useful information that might help answer your inquiries. The Downs has a very good search engine built-in.

I will be moderating this thread very closely and somewhat severely, and I will not hesitate to prune or delete posts which run afoul of the Downs' policies on discussions of religion and/ or politics. This is a topic which deserves some discussion, but I will not let it run off-topic -- such discussions can be held in private messages or e-mails, but not here.

Sincerely,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Party-Pooper,
Thenamir

[Mithalwen]

Yes I seem to remember a similar topic turned nasty a while back.....


While it is possible to see elements of the Judeo-Christian tradition in the Silmarillion - particularly if you have read any of Paradise Lost- there are an awful lot of things which don't match up and the status of the Valar and Maia are among them. They are described them as "Powers" (though I have a moment of doubt is this was by CT or JRRT), which would ally them with the angelic order. However they seem more autonomous within Arda than Angels in the Christian tradition (thought there will be better Theologians out there who may well know different), and their clear cut spheres of responsibility draw paralels with the gods of the Graeco-roman mythologies (which I am reasonably familiar with). Tolkien was of course deeply interested in Norse mythology and this heavily influenced his work.

It is easy to find elements of Christianity (and specifically Catholicism) there too but I think direct reference maybe too strong. I heard an interesting talk by , Jean Chausse, a clearly devout Catholic at Oxonmoot who saw in Gandalf's healing of Theoden a glimpse of the final victory and drew paralels with pentecost. I don't know if it was one of Tolkien's conscious revisions or something that Chausse interpreted because of his worldview . Clearly if you subscribe to a religion devoted to a monotheistic creator then you will see Eru in that light. I am not saying it is wrong but it probably isn't that simple.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

I hope that it will generate some new discussions ans research into JRRT's thought processes.

I rather hope that it doesn't, at least as far as another quarrel on the forum would be concerned. I'm just asking if anyone has knowledge of any further statements by Tolkien, in-universe or out, on the nature of Eru's being. What I'm not by any means doing is asking for a debate over everyone's personal take on the issue.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But I have a question that has been bugging me since I first read the silmarillion: Are the Ainur (Valar and Maiar) angels or gods in their own right?

If pressed I might say that Tolkien the Christian did not ultimately invent many gods, but 'Tolkien the pagan' invented a way in which his mythology can still mirror Primary World pantheons.

Some may say they find the author splitting hairs about worship and 'creating' because he doesn't want to be seen as the inventor of beings who are properly called 'gods'. After considering the issue I'm not sure I can agree with that, and I think parts of his faith did shape the distinctions he seems to raise concerning his 'gods', if not his creations. Tolkien believed that praying to Mary, dedicating a chapel to her, revering her, was not 'worship' of a goddess. Whether this reaches beyond Catholic thought is not the point, because Tolkien believed what he believed.

Anyway, maybe consider...

'God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rules and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmological drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course meant to provide beings of the same order and beauty, power, majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted -- well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity'. JRRT to Milton Waldman, probably late 1951

'The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits -- of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels -- reverend therefore, but not wordshipful.' Draft to Peter Hastings 1954

*There is only one 'god': God Eru Ilúvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors;...' footnote to a draft to Father Robert Murray, 1954

'... to the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world*

*They shared in its 'making' -- but only on the same terms as we 'make' a work of art or story. The realization of it, the gift to it of a created reality of the same grade as their own, was the act of the One God.' Draft to Michael Straight, probably 1956

'They were allowed to do so, and the great among them became the equivalent of the 'gods' of traditional mythologies; but a condition was that they would remain 'in it' until the Story was finished.' to Major Bowen 1957

'There are no 'Gods', properly so called, in the mythological background of my stories. Their place is taken by the persons referred to as the Valar (or Powers): angelic created beings appointed to the government of the world.' to A. E. Couchman, 1966

'Strictly these spirits were called Ainur, the Valar, being only those from among them who entered the world after its making, and the name is properly applied only to those great among them, who take the imaginative but not the theological place of 'gods'. The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion.' JRRT to (almost) Rhona Beare 1958, draft letter 212

Andreth said...

'Who is the One, whom ye call Eru? If we put aside the Men who serve the Nameless, as do many in Middle-earth, still many Men perceive the world only as a war between Light and Dark equipotent. But you will say: nay, that is Manwe and Melkor; Eru is above them. Is then Eru only the greatest of the Valar, a great god among gods, as most Men will say, even among the Atani: a king who dwells far from his kingdom and leaves lesser princes to do here much as they will? Again you say: nay, Eru is One, alone without peer, and He made Ea, and is beyond it; and the Valar are greater than we, but yet no nearer to His majesty. Is this not so?'

'Yes,' said Finrod. 'We say this, and the Valar we know, and they say the same, all save one. But which, think you, is likely to lie: those who make themselves humble, or he that exalts himself?'

From the 'Athrabeth', Morgoth's Ring

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien believed that praying to Mary, dedicating a chapel to her, revering her, was not 'worship' of a goddess. Whether this reaches beyond Catholic thought is not the point, because Tolkien believed what he believed.

It doesn't, in point of fact, but thank you, Galin, for the quotations, especially that last one. That I find especially interesting.

[Lalwendë]

The unfortunate thing is that Tolkien created a monotheistic world with a god similar to the Christian concept of God, but it aint that simple a comparison if you look at it closely.

First sticking point of course is that Tolkien was not writing allegory. His creation is a literary creation, it is an independent world, not our world. You are free to get some applicability out of it if you find delightful or not so nice things which mirror your own experience or understanding - but Tolkien was very wise when he said that you can get no more than applicability as he immediately stepped away from the whole rigid "This equals this" type of thinking. He knew that we as readers can never truly know how his own understanding of God worked and so we can never know if this really is shown in Eru.

The other huge sticking point is that everyone has different ideas of God. For some, Eru might be exactly like their understanding, for others, Eru might look nothing like their understanding of God. And it certainly doesn't apply across the board either way to all Christians! For me, who went to church every week until I was about 13/14, this Eru is nothing at all like the God I learned about. He bears some similarity to the Catholic version of God who my Grandmother would tell me about (I was firmly C of E), but even then, he is still fundamentally different. Eru creates Melkor who creates evil and allows it to happen, whereas the Catholic God created people and they then undergo The Fall - there is no 'Fall' in Tolkien's creation, not unless you really force some analogies.

I think the most interesting and likely comparison to Eru can be found in the Book of Job. Here, very much, God = Eru. In many ways I think Tolkien was exploring with Eru his own understanding of a God who can allow millions of people to die in the most awful ways imaginable and yet be essentially 'good'. Eru is unpleasant and certainly exercises his 'omnipotence' - he's an interesting expression of a man who had to balance a faith which he felt emotionally attached to because of his lost mother with the vivid and visceral memory of men being slaughtered in front of him in the trenches. After WWI, the church began to lose its hold on people, as they simply could not accept that God would allow this to happen; Tolkien on the other hand has this attachment to his faith through his lost mother, and seems to have gone back to an almost Anglo-Saxon version of faith where God and Wyrd are mixed up in one bloody, not-very-humane whole.

So in a nutshell, no, Eru is not the God, but he is aGod, maybe even your God. If he's yours, then fine (though I'm intrigued as to how you have acquired such a Brimstone version of God in the post-Reformation era if you're not Catholic!), but he bears no comparison to other people's God.

As to the Valar - they're way better than angels being that they derived from Tolkien's readings of Norse myth and the Gods. Much more exciting to me

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The unfortunate thing is that Tolkien created a monotheistic world with a god similar to the Christian concept of God, but it aint that simple a comparison if you look at it closely.

Don't let's start, please?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Neurion

Don't let's start, please?

Start what?

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Start what?

Start debating Tolkien's views on God.