The Gondolindrim - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 03-06-2002, 04:50 PM

Who was more powerful? Glorfindel or Ecthelion? Ecthelion defeated the greatest Balrog and leader of Morgoth's armies, but Glorfindel defeated a Balrog nonetheless, and sacrificed himself to save many others. Plus Glorfindel fought on harder terrain. And was Orcrist Ecthelion's sword? Sting his main gauche (short left hand sword)? If so did he use them to kill Gothmog? Since Glorfindel's will was strengthened by his sacrifice and he saw Valinor, and came back, my guess would be him. But Ecthelion defeated the single most powerful thing in Melko's army.

littlemanpoet · 03-06-2002, 08:12 PM

So, Keeper, yet another child of the Balrog vs. Dragon debate here. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Glorfindel gets my vote. But barely. Tolkien wrote a lot more about Glorfindel than Ecthelion, which may mean little. I fear point about Glofindel having been to Valinor is not convincing, though.

It doesn't help the argument that the only references in the Silmarillion to Ecthelion's slaying of Gothmog is only referring to it, rather than the vivid description Tolkien lovingly portrayed of Glorfindel, elven being of light.

Joy · 03-06-2002, 08:17 PM

I am not sure of who weilded Orcist in the FA, but Glamdring was its mate sword and it was borne by Turgon. As for Sting, it was forged in the First Age, it was carried away as spoil by the creatures of Morgoth who destroyed that city.

The other part, I have not a clue.

Ardolon · 06-19-2003, 02:05 AM

Gonna have to say Ecthelion. He was already wounded before he even started to fight with Gothmog. He effecticely went into it one armed, having recently regained conciousness. I've recently regained conciousness before, and it wasnt something where I'd want to fight after. And you gotta look at the remembrance factor... Glorfindel speaks for himself, literally, but how many Stewards of Gondor were named for him? Zero. And Ecthelion's got, what, two?

Gwaihir the Windlord · 06-19-2003, 04:04 AM

Is that to say that Glorfindel wouldn't have been up to the task? I don't really think this thread is viable. To say who was 'more powerful' must be a vague and inaccurate guess at something which may be non-existent in the first place. *sniff*

Morwen Tindomerel · 06-19-2003, 09:25 AM

Both Ecthelion and Glorfindel were great champions who died heroically slaying a Balrog, there seems little to choose between them. Except that Glorfindel's feat saved Earendil who with his descendants is vital to the purposes of Eru, and that was purely fortuitous. Tolkien himself says Glorfindel would have defended the refugees regardless, and no doubt so would Ecthelion had he lived to do so.

Finwe · 06-19-2003, 06:33 PM

Well, let's look at it this way, Glorfindel's name means, to put it simply, "Blondie". Ecthelion's name comes from "Ecthel" which means "point of a spear." I don't know about you, but I think "Point of a Spear" is a much manlier name than "Blondie."
Perhaps Sting could have been Glorfindel's dagger that he used to kill the Balrog. It could have been later picked up as Orcs were ransacking Gondolin and its surroundings.

Legolas · 06-19-2003, 06:56 PM

Your assertion about names is entirely unfounded. Galadriel's name means "pretty hair" basically, but she (with Feanor) was greatest of the Noldor. That means she was greater than Ecthelion - why couldn't Glorfindel be greater too?

Glorfindel was also chosen specifically to return to Middle-earth in the Second or Third Age (depending on the account you read) to aid in the fight against Sauron. Why not Ecthelion? Glorfindel appears to be the greater of the two to me.

obloquy · 06-19-2003, 11:16 PM

The deaths of both Glorfindel's Bane and Gothmog are described. Neither were killed by any sword.

[ June 20, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

Amarie of the Vanyar · 06-20-2003, 11:54 AM

If by 'more powerful' you mean 'who killed more Balrogs' you should then consider Rog and the House of Hammer of Wrath [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Quote:

Fearful too they were for that slaughter Rog had done amid the Balrogs

In fact, I agree with Gwaihir in that it is impossible to decide who was more powerful, the deeds of all the inhabitants of Gondolin were extremely heroic [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (with the exception of Maeglin's [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] )

Finwe · 06-21-2003, 02:13 PM

Well, I'm sure that Maeglin had his heroic moments (I'm not defending the screwed-up git, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate!). He refused to remain in Gondolin as regent when Turgon went to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. If he was the kind of guy that we all think he was, he would have stayed and tried to mess around with Idril and the rest of the city for a bit. But no, he wanted to fight, too. I'm not saying that his intentions were noble. They probably weren't. But every villain has some redeeming qualities, and Maeglin had some.

StarJewel · 06-25-2003, 10:33 PM

Maeglin's only redeeming factor in my eyes is that he cared enough about his mother to help her escape Eol. Granted, he learned all he could from Eol, so there was no reason for him to stay.
As for Glorfindel and Ecthelion, I wouldnt say that either is greater than the other.

Gorthol · 06-26-2003, 10:57 AM

I'd say Ecthelion, he was the head of the Gondolin army and killed the mightiest servent of Melkor (save Sauron).

Tinuviel of Denton · 06-26-2003, 06:42 PM

I'm confused here. Ecthelion was a servant of Melkor? *blinks. Several times.* That I will have to look up in the Silm.

*some time later*

No, Ecthelion was definitely an elf, no servant of Melkor here.

Quote:

...of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with mog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the king, where each slew the other...

Okay. Not confused anymore.

Of the two, I think they were about equal. Both slew balrogs, and both died in the doing. That's enough for me.

[ June 26, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

Finwe · 06-26-2003, 06:45 PM

I don't think that Glorfindel's rebirth had anything to do with his strength. He had been very close to Idril's family in his "first life," so he seemed like the likely candidate for rebirth, so that he could stay with Elrond (Idril's descendant) and his family, to help them in their fight against Sauron.

03-06-2002, 04:50 PM	#1
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	The Gondolindrim Who was more powerful? Glorfindel or Ecthelion? Ecthelion defeated the greatest Balrog and leader of Morgoth's armies, but Glorfindel defeated a Balrog nonetheless, and sacrificed himself to save many others. Plus Glorfindel fought on harder terrain. And was Orcrist Ecthelion's sword? Sting his main gauche (short left hand sword)? If so did he use them to kill Gothmog? Since Glorfindel's will was strengthened by his sacrifice and he saw Valinor, and came back, my guess would be him. But Ecthelion defeated the single most powerful thing in Melko's army. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

03-06-2002, 08:17 PM	#3
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	I am not sure of who weilded Orcist in the FA, but Glamdring was its mate sword and it was borne by Turgon. As for Sting, it was forged in the First Age, it was carried away as spoil by the creatures of Morgoth who destroyed that city. The other part, I have not a clue. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

06-19-2003, 02:05 AM	#4
Ardolon Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 16	Gonna have to say Ecthelion. He was already wounded before he even started to fight with Gothmog. He effecticely went into it one armed, having recently regained conciousness. I've recently regained conciousness before, and it wasnt something where I'd want to fight after. And you gotta look at the remembrance factor... Glorfindel speaks for himself, literally, but how many Stewards of Gondor were named for him? Zero. And Ecthelion's got, what, two? __________________ Pushing the envelope three inches futher then anyone else.-Bone

06-19-2003, 06:33 PM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Well, let's look at it this way, Glorfindel's name means, to put it simply, "Blondie". Ecthelion's name comes from "Ecthel" which means "point of a spear." I don't know about you, but I think "Point of a Spear" is a much manlier name than "Blondie." Perhaps Sting could have been Glorfindel's dagger that he used to kill the Balrog. It could have been later picked up as Orcs were ransacking Gondolin and its surroundings. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

06-19-2003, 06:56 PM	#8
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Your assertion about names is entirely unfounded. Galadriel's name means "pretty hair" basically, but she (with Feanor) was greatest of the Noldor. That means she was greater than Ecthelion - why couldn't Glorfindel be greater too? Glorfindel was also chosen specifically to return to Middle-earth in the Second or Third Age (depending on the account you read) to aid in the fight against Sauron. Why not Ecthelion? Glorfindel appears to be the greater of the two to me. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

03-06-2002, 08:12 PM	#2
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	So, Keeper, yet another child of the Balrog vs. Dragon debate here. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Glorfindel gets my vote. But barely. Tolkien wrote a lot more about Glorfindel than Ecthelion, which may mean little. I fear point about Glofindel having been to Valinor is not convincing, though. It doesn't help the argument that the only references in the Silmarillion to Ecthelion's slaying of Gothmog is only referring to it, rather than the vivid description Tolkien lovingly portrayed of Glorfindel, elven being of light.

06-19-2003, 04:04 AM	#5
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Is that to say that Glorfindel wouldn't have been up to the task? I don't really think this thread is viable. To say who was 'more powerful' must be a vague and inaccurate guess at something which may be non-existent in the first place. sniff

06-19-2003, 09:25 AM	#6
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	Both Ecthelion and Glorfindel were great champions who died heroically slaying a Balrog, there seems little to choose between them. Except that Glorfindel's feat saved Earendil who with his descendants is vital to the purposes of Eru, and that was purely fortuitous. Tolkien himself says Glorfindel would have defended the refugees regardless, and no doubt so would Ecthelion had he lived to do so.

06-19-2003, 11:16 PM	#9
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	The deaths of both Glorfindel's Bane and Gothmog are described. Neither were killed by any sword. [ June 20, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

06-21-2003, 02:13 PM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Well, I'm sure that Maeglin had his heroic moments (I'm not defending the screwed-up git, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate!). He refused to remain in Gondolin as regent when Turgon went to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. If he was the kind of guy that we all think he was, he would have stayed and tried to mess around with Idril and the rest of the city for a bit. But no, he wanted to fight, too. I'm not saying that his intentions were noble. They probably weren't. But every villain has some redeeming qualities, and Maeglin had some. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

06-25-2003, 10:33 PM	#12
StarJewel Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: I'm in my dear Maedhros' arms, dreaming the day away. Oh, who am I kidding, Chicago is nothing like that! Posts: 116	Maeglin's only redeeming factor in my eyes is that he cared enough about his mother to help her escape Eol. Granted, he learned all he could from Eol, so there was no reason for him to stay. As for Glorfindel and Ecthelion, I wouldnt say that either is greater than the other. __________________ Visit my writing site...if you dare http://www.fanfiction.net/~mirielamarian

06-26-2003, 10:57 AM	#13
Gorthol Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Mindon Eldaliéva Posts: 49	I'd say Ecthelion, he was the head of the Gondolin army and killed the mightiest servent of Melkor (save Sauron). __________________ Aurë Entuluva!

06-26-2003, 06:45 PM	#15
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I don't think that Glorfindel's rebirth had anything to do with his strength. He had been very close to Idril's family in his "first life," so he seemed like the likely candidate for rebirth, so that he could stay with Elrond (Idril's descendant) and his family, to help them in their fight against Sauron. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.