Cloning and such - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-02-2003, 12:46 PM

O.K, in the Silmarillion, whilst some of the Edain are residing in Estolad (The land of Amras) men are arguing over whether to stay and help the Eldar or to flee. Anyway, one ‘who appeared to be a man named Amlach told men that they had to go back over Beleriand. But, as it later appears, it wasn’t him. So how did Morgoth make a ‘clone’ of Amlach? Does anyone know? At first I thought it may be Sauron, who was known, due to his necromantic skills to inhabit the bodies of dead men, but Amlach wasn’t dead. Or maybe it was a Maia or shape-shifted into the shape of Amlach. Or maybe Morgoth somehow managed to take over his mind for a while ,and put words into his mouth in the same was Ulmo put words into Tuor’s mouth.

burrahobbit · 02-02-2003, 01:13 PM

Firstly, since when is Sauron known to inhabit the bodies of dead men?

Secondly, since when isn't Sauron known to have been able to change shape?

And thirdly, what does that have to do with cloning?

[ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Iarwain · 02-02-2003, 01:44 PM

I'm also confused here, please give a bit more background on your thoughts before continuing.

Iarwain

Carrûn · 02-02-2003, 01:56 PM

I always thought Amlach wasn't there at the time, Sauron appeared in his form, and then Amlach showed up later after Sauron left.

Never thought it really had anything to do with cloning or taking over someone's body.

Aiwendil · 02-02-2003, 02:49 PM

I think that one of the strengths of the story is that we never find out who or what it was that impersonated Amlach. There is a sort of uneasy element of mystery here, as well as a sense of the extent of Morgoth's power. Still, it's fun to speculate.

It certainly does sound rather like the work of Sauron. Of all Morgoth's servants, he is the only one we know to be a master of sorcery and phantoms. Amlach may have been the same sort of illusion as Eilinel. Or it may indeed have been Sauron, in altered form. I rather like this possibility, if only because I'm something of a fan of Sauron.

It may have been some lesser Maia. Perhaps something like a Boldog. I don't know whether the Boldog-types (if they even existed) were permanently incarnate, or if they could still change form. But Morgoth may very well have had other, unnamed Maiar servants.

The possibility of Amlach being mind-controlled hadn't occurred to me before. It's certainly possible. I don't know how exactly it could be done, though. I think that Ulmo's putting words into Tuor's mouth is rather different. Tuor was, presumably, fully conscious of speaking the words. Nor is there any indication that he was forced to say what Ulmo had put in him; he was of course willing. But it's certainly possible that Sauron or someone else had enspelled him.

doug*platypus · 02-03-2003, 06:26 AM

Well, the title certainly grabbed my attention.

Quote:

So how did Morgoth make a ‘clone’ of Amlach?

How did Morgoth extract DNA from Amlach, and produce a new organism of exactly the same genetic pattern? ARE YOU KIDDING?

My assumption was always that Morgoth had not lost the ability to clothe himself in different forms at this point (I could be wrong). He may have even been a master of this - didn't Sauron have to return to Morgoth to be granted another body, after being destroyed at Tol-in-Gaurhoth?

If not a true taking on of Amlach's form, I would say he used his powers to temporarily alter his form to resemble that of Amlach in the eyes of those present. Gandalf credits Saruman with such ability in his cautionary words to Gimli at Isengard (despite the fact that Saruman is incarnate as an Istar), and both Sauron and Morgoth are more powerful.

02-02-2003, 12:46 PM	#1
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Cloning and such O.K, in the Silmarillion, whilst some of the Edain are residing in Estolad (The land of Amras) men are arguing over whether to stay and help the Eldar or to flee. Anyway, one ‘who appeared to be a man named Amlach told men that they had to go back over Beleriand. But, as it later appears, it wasn’t him. So how did Morgoth make a ‘clone’ of Amlach? Does anyone know? At first I thought it may be Sauron, who was known, due to his necromantic skills to inhabit the bodies of dead men, but Amlach wasn’t dead. Or maybe it was a Maia or shape-shifted into the shape of Amlach. Or maybe Morgoth somehow managed to take over his mind for a while ,and put words into his mouth in the same was Ulmo put words into Tuor’s mouth. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-02-2003, 01:13 PM	#2
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Firstly, since when is Sauron known to inhabit the bodies of dead men? Secondly, since when isn't Sauron known to have been able to change shape? And thirdly, what does that have to do with cloning? [ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ] __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

02-02-2003, 01:44 PM	#3
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	I'm also confused here, please give a bit more background on your thoughts before continuing. Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

02-02-2003, 01:56 PM	#4
Carrûn Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Behind you, counting to 3 Posts: 234	I always thought Amlach wasn't there at the time, Sauron appeared in his form, and then Amlach showed up later after Sauron left. Never thought it really had anything to do with cloning or taking over someone's body. __________________ "Dic, hospes, Spartae, nos te hic vidisse iacentes dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur."

02-02-2003, 02:49 PM	#5
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I think that one of the strengths of the story is that we never find out who or what it was that impersonated Amlach. There is a sort of uneasy element of mystery here, as well as a sense of the extent of Morgoth's power. Still, it's fun to speculate. It certainly does sound rather like the work of Sauron. Of all Morgoth's servants, he is the only one we know to be a master of sorcery and phantoms. Amlach may have been the same sort of illusion as Eilinel. Or it may indeed have been Sauron, in altered form. I rather like this possibility, if only because I'm something of a fan of Sauron. It may have been some lesser Maia. Perhaps something like a Boldog. I don't know whether the Boldog-types (if they even existed) were permanently incarnate, or if they could still change form. But Morgoth may very well have had other, unnamed Maiar servants. The possibility of Amlach being mind-controlled hadn't occurred to me before. It's certainly possible. I don't know how exactly it could be done, though. I think that Ulmo's putting words into Tuor's mouth is rather different. Tuor was, presumably, fully conscious of speaking the words. Nor is there any indication that he was forced to say what Ulmo had put in him; he was of course willing. But it's certainly possible that Sauron or someone else had enspelled him.