Seven Ages

[littlemanpoet]

I know about four ages of Middle Earth. Child of the Seventh Age's monaker hints at seven ages. When did the fourth age end, and how? When did the fifth, sixth and seventh ages begin and end (in the case of 5 & 6)? What are the singular earmarks of each age that separates them from each other? What basis is there for seven ages in Tolkien?

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Sharkû]

"I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years : that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh." (footnote to Letter #211)

From letter #211:
"All I can say is that, if it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region."

What landmarks could be decisive for constituting the end or dawn of a new age if we are to take Tolkien's Middle-Earth into our own? The Fall of Troy (supposedly somewhere before 1100BC if I remember correctly), the downfall of the Roman Empire; perhaps the various conquests of Tol Albion (which is the point of connection between fact and fiction in Tolkien's Ælfwine idea). On the other hand, there is the hypothetical biblical history which could fit into Tolkien's gap and Age remarks.

[burrahobbit]

I would think that the Bible would have to fit into Tolkien's idea of Ages in the real world. Given this, the crucifixion of Jesus would be a good end point for the Fifth age and begining of the Sixth. For the end of the Sixth I would guess that something like WW2 would be a good choice, or perhaps the formation of the U.N.

[Child of the 7th Age]

How about the new millenium?

[burrahobbit]

No, that wasn't nearly as much of a world changing event as the events at the ends of the First, Second, and Third Ages. The crucifixion of Jesus led directly to the age of Christianity is the West and loads of other things important to the Christian Mythos, and as Tolkien was a Christian this makes it a good choice as the end/begining of an Age. The end of WW2 is very similar to the ends of the First, Second, and Third Ages, which all end is the deposing of a great tyrant. None of the Ages that we know about ended because it had been 2000 years since the last one.

[littlemanpoet]

Thank you for the answers from the letters, Sharku.

I would tend to agree with burrahobbit that the the sixth age probably could be construed to have begun with Christ, though Tolkien being Catholic, I'd say he would start it with the incarnation rather than the crucifixion.

Okay: a chart just for the fish (halibut) and please correct me if I'm wrong on anything canon.

Age - - - Beginning - - - - - - - End

First - - creation of Ea - - - - Morgoth cast to the void
Second - creation of Numenor - destruction of Numenor
Third - - institution of Gondor - destruction of the Ring
Fourth - rise of men - - - - - - worldwide flood?
Fifth - - rise of indo-europeans? -ncarnation of Christ?
Sixth - - birth of Christianity? - death of middle ages in World War One
Seventh - rise of the machine - - resurgence of myth and destruction of the machine

It's only hypothetical, granted, but I'd say that the three advents I list were rather powerful.

Indo-Europeans began to spread and take over wherever they went, including the Aryans in India, the Medes/Persians in the middle east, the Greeks, the Romans, the Celts, the Germans, the Rus (also the Slavs and Balts but to less effect).

The rise and spread of Christianity to all parts of the globe, especially the domination of the western variety that led to a resurgence of technological advancement and a shrinking of the globe - and that's just the economic and technical ramifications.

The rise of industrialism and the machine. I think this was key for Tolkien. His Shire of the Hobbits is a throwback to life just before this happened in England. His writings in this regard are wistful and nostalgic. We, by comparison, have all become quite at home with machines and industry. We all have computers and internet access, obviously. So that's my analysis in very brief form. I could go on and on and on but won't bore you. Heck I wouldn't mind a good healthy debate about it all. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

As you can see from my name on this board, I obviously have an interest in this topic. The letter and footnote identified by Sharku are the ones I used to derive my own name. I'm not aware of any additional examples. If anyone knows of any others, please let me know about them here.

We, by comparison, have all become quite at home with machines and industry. We all have computers and internet access, obviously.

Littlemanpoet -- You general analysis is great, but I guess I have questions about some of the above quote. Maybe it was because many of my values were defined in communes during the 60s, but I truly don't feel at home with machines and industry. I know that I have to use them to survive. Just to show you how adverse a reaction I have, I didn't drive a car until about ten years ago. Of course, it helps to live in East coast cities.

And computers....the technology is there, but we still have chunks of society with very limited access. Believe me, I do tutoring in the immigrant community where computers are the exception rather than the rule. And I am truly not comfortable on computers, as my children are. I am afraid if I push a button the whole thing will go up in smoke. So your last description is basically correct, but perhaps should be softened somewhat and viewed as an ongoing process.

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[littlemanpoet]

I would suggest, Sharon, that you take an inventory of how many machines populate your living abode. As you take note of each one, think of what the machine accomplishes, and how humans used to accomplish the same thing. I think that by the time you have completed this little task, you will be convinced that you truly have become comfortable with a culture that lives by the machine. Let me start the list: washing machine, laundry machine, dryer, phone, microwave, oven/stove, refrigerator, furnace, clock-radio, answering machine, bathing facilities, lawn mower, television...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Littlemanpoet --

Oh, yes, I know my house is stuffed with machines, and I couldn't live in the 21st century without them. And, most important and worthwhile are those machines used to help diagnose and cure illness. I certainly wouldn't want to throw those out the window.

But that doesn't mean I feel emotionally comfortable with this plethora of inventions.
I am extremely ambivalent about the cost we pay for those machines in the quality of our environment and the state of our soul. We race around in circles, so anxious to get somewhere, but uncertain where we are going. I guess part of me is very sympathetic to that old curmudgeon Tolkien.

Strangely enough, because we are a traditional Jewish family who live in walking distance of an orthodox synagogue, there is one day a week when I am completely independent of machines. No car, no TV or computer, no videos or lawnmowers, or microwaves or whatever. We walk everywhere, we visit people and talk to them, we take naps in the afternoon, and live life at the pace which I believe it's actally supposed to be lived. The only machine I truly miss is the computer (and sometimes I do cheat on that).

Anyways, I do understand your listing these as a defining criteria of the age,and I don't deny being totally dependent on machines, like everyone else. But I do have serious questions about where mechanization and the resulting homoginization(sp?)is leading our world.
sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[littlemanpoet]

I think the ambivalence you describe is a characteristic of any truly sane person in this age. Truly sane meaning someone who is aware of her dependence upon the Machine, thankful for them (or at least glad to have them), yet ill at ease with their ubiquity. I admit to coveting a Triumph TR6 sports car. Maybe someday I'll own one. But at the same time I admit it has no catalytic converter and makes a bad racket, and "image is everything" in regard to it, not to mention power and speed. What about the sacred groves of woodland and the quiet miles of uninhabited land? I want to drive through them in my imaginary TR6 but then a road would have to be cut through them. Better to walk, no? But how do I get there? Via automobile. Ambivalence.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Relating to the question of machines.....our dependence and ambivalence......

One problem is the size of our country. It's virtually impossible to get anywhere on foot. When I was younger, I spent a lot of time in Wales and England and the Netherlands, altogether, just under two years. And the one thing I liked about being there was the ability to carry a backpack, walking from town to town, and staying in youth hostels or Bed and Breakfast. The scale was much different than in the US. Here, everything is much more vast, with the good and the bad that distance entails. So a car becomes more necessary. And the good and bad which this entails.
sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Tarthang]

Ok, so maybe the ages have quickened but in relationship to the passage of time. However i think that the transition period from one age to another may have lengthened.
The last age started to end with the industrial revolution, quickened a little bit w/ the advent of the A-bomb during WWII and fully ended when man achieved the ability to journey to the moon. During which, our current Machine Age was picking up speed and growing into it's own. Perhaps the next age will begin with the advent of interstellar travel, or more likely (and sooner) understanding of DNA and cloning proceses for complex organisms (i.e. man).

[littlemanpoet]

I wanna go to Europe! I am green with envy, Child.

Tarthang, I think the advances you describe are coming down the pike way too soon to herald another whole age. We can't have an "age" that lasts only a couple hundred years. In fact, I doubt that there will BE an eighth age...

[Child of the 7th Age]

...I doubt there will be an eighth age.....

Litlemanpoet --- Gulp! What do you mean by that? Do you mean what I think you mean?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Aiwendil]

Just a few minor quibbles:

First - - creation of Ea - - - - Morgoth cast to the void

There seems to be some confusion concerning the "First Age". I was always under the impression that the "ages" that we are discussing are really "ages of the Sun". There were ages before the first age (the ages of the lamps, of darkness, and of the Trees). I would say then that the First Age is from the first rising of the Sun to the casting of Morgoth into the void.

Second - creation of Numenor - destruction of Numenor

Actually, Numenor was created a few years after the beginning of the age and was destroyed prior to its end. I would say rather from the expulsion of Morgoth to the Last Alliance.

Third - - institution of Gondor - destruction of the Ring

From the Last Alliance to the destruction of the Ring.

I agree that in a Christian mythology like Tolkien's, the incarnation of Christ would certainly mark the beginning of an age. Perhaps also the covenant with the Jews?

But I think it is difficult to pick appropriate starting/ending places. Even in Middle-earth, ages didn't always end where you'd expect. The fall of Numenor seems like a much more apt place to end the Second Age than the Last Alliance.

[VanimaEdhel]

We (meaning you) forgot the "ages" of sorts before the first age "The Age of the Valar" and the "Age of the Trees"...sorry to be picky, but...heehee...

[Aiwendil]

We (meaning you) forgot the "ages" of sorts before the first age "The Age of the Valar" and the "Age of the Trees"...sorry to be picky, but...heehee...

That's what I mean - the "First Age" is really the "First Age of the Sun".

[Frodo Baggins]

Umm people? The flood would have to before Middle-Earth becuse hobits still exist today and there were no hobits on the ark.

[orlandoandsaran]

Hahahahaha
An ark?
So what was in it??
Hahahahaha

[Elrian]

He's referring to Noah's Ark, from the Bible.

[littlemanpoet]

I heartily accept your corrections, Aiwendil. My guesses were off the top of my head instead of looking it up. Lazy me.

Who says there were no Hobbits on the ark? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Just because Noah never saw them doesn't mean they weren't there. Now there's a strange fanfic/fantasy for somebody to pickup on...

I guess I don't have a problem with there being more than seven ages, seeing as it has now been pointed out that we're in at least a 9th age if you count the ones before the sun.

Child, my doubts about an additional age have to do with my theology. I guess I could be all wet and there may be many more. After all, most Christians' attempts to guess or predict the "End Times" have been just plain wrong. There has been a new theory for virtually every generation of the Church; all wrong. The ones that are current now are probably just as wrong.

If there is to be yet another age after this one, I seriously think it would have to be either extraterrestrial or post-cataclysmic with a return to mythic pre-conscious ways of being and thinking.

[mark12_30]

littlemanpoet,

I wonder what Tolkien thought about the consummation of the ages. He mentions that elves last only as long as the earth does, or "the world'-- augh, no book at hand, which is it?-- so when the world ends, does that mean the elves end too?

And since the old earth and heavens will be destroyed and a new heavens and new earth will be made, do the elves sort of get to switch over? A bit artificial, perhaps... but I have a hard time thinking of Tolkien imagining a world without elves.

In general-- do I vaguely recall that according to the Encyclopedia of Arda online, the Age of the Two Trees lasted about 9000 years? Are the lamps, and the twilight, even before that? Didn't the trees grow from what was left of the lamps after Melkor destroyed the lamps?

I always think of the two trees as the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. I don't know whether Tolkien thought of them that way or not.

[littlemanpoet]

Hi Mark

I have no proof for my speculations on the Elves' ultimate end. But:

Being Children of Iluvatar as much as are the Atani, my sense is that their spirits would continue beyond an End of Ea. As long as there is an Ea, to it they are bound in spirit and body. This does run counter to Elrond's implications when he says that Aragron dooms Arwen to a separation from Elrond (I don't have the quote here) for all time (?). My guess is that Elrond speaks only of what he knows, and Tolkien would have them last beyond Ea in spirit.

I'm not sure what you imagine the Elves switching over to. If you imply that they will finally be united in their doom with Men, I don't see that as artificial precisely because it follows with the nature of spirits, which Tolkien said are no different between Men and Elves.

The Lamps came before the Trees. I believe they existed for about 10,000 years, too. I could be wrong on that... The twilight over Middle Earth lasted for the duration of the ages of Lamps and Trees. I don't recall whether the Trees were born out of the Lamps, but I think so. I never thought of the two Trees as signifying the two trees of Eden. I don't think Tolkien intended that, either. He intended them to resemble the light of the Sun and Moon; more mythical and less connotative of the Old Testament, I'd say.

[the guy who be short]

Ah, the great LMP, always able to create a deep and thought provoking topic. *bows*
Now, i have a one thing to say to LMP before i begin to ramble about the ages.

I wanna go to Europe! I am green with envy, Child.

Don't be. It's not that great. I wanna go to America, you people are meanta be really rich! But theres a death penalty there... what if i want to go on a killing spree? Ah well, best to stay in Britain. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Now, I was brought up in a Hindu household, but not a particularly religious one. Science quenched my thirst for knowledge, so im likely to have extremely clashing views with you.

Re: you thinking there wont be an eighth age.
I think there will be. I do believe in God, but i dont think the end of the universe will come anytime soon. Why?
You may not believe in evolution from slime, but look at mans evolution. There is proof the Romans existed. Look how far man has come in a mere 2000 years, a millisecond compared to the lifespan of Earth. We have space travel, Telephones, Coffee mugs.
But there is still so much more to learn.
I think that when humans have learnt everything; everything there is to know, then we will all die.
But i agree that the end of Earth is coming. For millions of years it has been avoided. Sonner or later, a large meteors gonnna crash into Earth.
But by then, i think we will have inhabited Mars (its possible) and possibly the moon (though i think that would be hard, if the Earth was destroyed!)
So i think humanity will escape the end of Earth, but will end when all knowledge is obtained.
So, in my view, future ages:
Creation of AI ----- Destruction of Earth
Inhabitation of Mars ----- Who knows? Finding of aliens? (Yes, i believe in them)

As for religion - I would like to be more religious, but its just something im not. And if you look around you, religion is dying out. i think 40% of people are atheists now. I think one age will end with the end of all religion.

Even though im not christian, i agree that christs birth could be the end/start of an age, seeing as it created the most popular religion, and that religion affected so much in the world.

Another thought: couldnt the end of slavery be an end of an age? I mean, mans respecting other men has got to be really important.

Thank you, LMP, for a great topic.

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: the guy who be short ]

[Findegil]

For a long time I have considered the end/start of the ages after the fourth in the same way you all have done in this discussion. But is that realy the right way to do it? What did devine the ages in the history Tolkien did document for us? Speaking about the history he documeted we are speaking of what the Dunedain had written down. So the ages were of numenorean origin. The first age was an exeption. The Atani did not eye withness what they wrot done. They had learned much of the events prior to thier arival in Belerinad from the Elves and they belived it to be true and recorded it. Also in that age the Elves were people who bilded the gourverment. So I think the end of the first age was defined by the elves when the mayority of the Elves left Middle-Earth with the forces of Valinor.

In the case of the second age, it might seem that the destruction of Numenore would be the better choice. But the Dunedain did learn very soon that evil had followed them to Middle-Earth. And at the begining of the third age the historieans of Dunedain clearly believed that Sauron was gone for good. And that end to vil was archived by the war of the last aliance.
For the third age their was know question what ended the evil of that age. But the Dunedain had learned that the Ende of an age would best be synchronised with the calender, at least for the slipyears. So the new age started in a year following a slipyear.

So the question what devined the end of the fourth, fivth and sixed age must be asked in view of the further history of the Dunedain. What did we know about that? Not much of course. But it is told in "The peoples of Middle-Earth" that the hieres of Elessar regined the relam for 100 generations. 100 generations of man will last for about 3000 years (or a bit more if we think of the longevity of the first few geneartions after Elessar). If we have to cover 3 ages and the beginning of the seventh in 6000 yaers than 3000 years could cover two of them. But Tolkien said the ages fastend. So it might be that fourth Age was about 3000 years and ended with the ultimat end of the kingdom of the Telecontars.

Their after we can assume the dunedain would be depressed. nothing further is know only that "many later kings were decended from Eldarion". To know more about the endeing of the ages we most aske: who is going to write the further history down in to books? Tolkien didn't record that, so we do not know.
And here your gueses are as good as any.

Respectfully
Findegil

To littlemanpoet,
The creation of Ea, or Arda happened prcisely 37,600 years before the War of the Ring (3018-3019 T.A)so your time frames are a bit off, by a bout 30,000 years. PLus how come the past few ages have only lasted either a few centuries or in some cases a few decades? This has no sense to it. The Fourth Age is the Dominion of Men and we are still in control, now aren't we? I'd say we're at the tail end of the F.A or the beginning of the Fifth age.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Hallanare,

But then would you disagree with what Tolkien clearly states in his Letters...? That we are at the end of the Sixth Age or the beginning of the Seventh.

Since he created/discovered Middle-earth with all its chronologies and events, surely he should know.

sharon

[ June 17, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Si na kamillo quettie!
I am just expressing my opinion on the topic. I am not trying to contradict Tolkien, but doesn't it make at least any sense?
Tamari, an sí.

[ June 17, 2003: Message edited by: -Hallanárë- ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

When was the Great Flood supposed to happen? I have done a little research on this subject and I have come out with 3 different dates:
2348 B.C., from the chronology of the Bible
4000 B.C., from archaelogical evidence
and 9500 B.C., also from archaelogical evidence

I'm getting confused ... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I am going back on myself here. I heard some where that at least six thousand years have passed since the beginning of the Fourth Age. That would place it right around 4000 B.C then during the next thousand years the human race fell into a sort of Dark Age and men forgot all that was known prior. Then around 3100 B.C, with the arise of structured civilization (archaeological evidence)the Fifth Age would have been ushered in. For the next three and a half milennia Men learned again the ancient arts of days gone by. Then with the Fall of Rome and the beginning of the Middle Ages the Sixth Age arose and illuminated the complexity of the minds of the Third and start of the Fourth Age and new technologies arose to change the world forever thus came the Renaissance and the Seventh Age which we are in the midst of even now. As you can see I have thought this over since my last post. I think that this is a little more logical than littlemanpoet's, whose system after the Fourth Age are in intervals of centuries and even decades.