What did they think?

[Kuruharan]

Over the course of battling through another thread, the relations between orcs and the human servants of Sauron were mentioned in passing.

This has gotten me to wondering, what did these humans think about these ugly, filthy, disgusting creatures they fought some of their wars alongside? Did it not perhaps give some of them pause about what sort of a god they thought they were serving?

For some of the more barbarous people, perhaps the unsanitary nature of the orcs did not bother them too much, but what about a culture like Umbar? I think Umbar was probably a culturally sophisticated place. It too, along with Arnor and Gondor, was a successor state of Numenor.

What would the Umbarians have thought about the pack of smelly orcs?

[Bêthberry]

Perhaps they would have an attitude something similar to "Let them eat cake"?

[Folwren]

Well....perhaps they weren't quite as nasty as they were in the movie. I never pictured them quite so gross. Besides, I also think they were more intelligent.

-- Folwren

[mormegil]

My feelings is that they felt personally and believed Sauron viewed them as superior to orcs in every way, with the exception of making good cannon fodder which orcs excelled at. Contrarily I think orcs viewed the humans as weak and not as useful as themselves.

When they were bent on the domination and destruction, I feel that such an inconvenience as fighting along side orcs was hardly a major concern. Think of it this way: The orcs viewed themselves as courageous and indispensable at being sent as the front line of attack for battles ergo their position was more valuable to Sauron and they served him better in their minds. Men were a bit more intelligent and realized that they, the orcs, were being used as fodder to soften up the opposition and would rather be used for the more strategic and final blow offensive (think Oliphants). Either way, Sauron, made both people feel appreciated and needed. I view this as the relationship one not liking the other but liking their own position more than the others.

[Selmo]

In our own world, nations have always alied themselves to evil men when it suits their political and economic ends.
Think of the UK and USA allied to Stalin's Soviet Union in WWII, the UK working with white supremisists in South Africa, the USA arming any brutal dictator who was anti-communist, the UK honouring the communist dictator of Romania with a knighthood, just a few example from the twentieth century.

Mankind has always been able to set aside it's principles for gain. Why should the men of Middle Earth be any different?

Sauron's and Saruman's men would feel themselves to be superior to orcs and would probably find working with them distasteful but they would accept what they would see as a temporary situation that would benifit them in the end. They might believe that once the West was defeated, men would have the upper hand and get rid of, or lord it over, orcs.
.

[Lalwendë]

The Bush and Blair alliance? Who's the evil one there?

It's Politics.

And different cultural values, and different expectations, and realism and all manner of things which drives nations to make alliances with other peoples making sometimes surprising bedmates. Who would have thought that the USA and USSR could be allies in WWII but they needed to be to rid the world of the Nazis. Who would have thought that the USA and China would ever be allies but they are now, seemingly to flood the world with merchandise (thus proving that its not just desperate circumstances which make for odd bedfellows).

The Rohirrim of course overcame their own innate prejudice against the Woses and ended up making an alliance with them; I don't doubt that the ordinary people of Rohan may have viewed the woodsmen as though they were 'dirty savages' judging by what's said when they meet up. But desperate times forge alliances, and from those alliances often comes greater understanding - looking on the optimistic, non-cynical side of matters... Perhaps as the Men of Umbar viewed their side as the 'just' side in the war, they overcame their own prejudices against Orcs in order to make an alliance?

As an aside, I would not let the UK off so lightly for their role in Africa.

[Boromir88]

I think Selmo hit the nail on the head...and as Tolkien talks about...in War indeed you have 'Orcs' on both sides:

For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall (it seems) succeed.But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed new Saurons, and slowly turn men and elves into Orcs. Not that in real life things are so clear cut as in a story, and we started out with a great many Orcs on our side...~Letter 66 (regarding WW2)

[Kuruharan]

The orcs viewed themselves as courageous and indispensable at being sent as the front line of attack
-mormegil

I’m not so sure about that, but…

Men were a bit more intelligent and realized that they, the orcs, were being used as fodder to soften up the opposition and would rather be used for the more strategic and final blow offensive
-mormegil

…that is plausible.

Sauron's and Saruman's men would feel themselves to be superior to orcs and would probably find working with them distasteful but they would accept what they would see as a temporary situation that would benifit them in the end.Selmo

Hmmm…I don’t know how temporary it was. It seemed to be a permanent fixture of their terms of service.

They might believe that once the West was defeated, men would have the upper hand and get rid of, or lord it over, orcs.Selmo

…that is plausible.

I wonder how the orcs played into the theology of the Sauron (Morgoth) worshiping Men. I’m sure the Nazgul probably had some significance, but what about orcs?

[Rhod the Red]

The Dark Forces always are shown to have contempt for eachother. No doubt the original Orcs working at Isengard felt a little insulted and undervalued by Saruman's creations.

[Knight of Gondor]

what did these humans think about these ugly, filthy, disgusting creatures they fought some of their wars alongside?

Was not the evil in their hearts the same?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The Bush and Blair alliance? Who's the evil one there? It's Politics.

I fundamentally disagree with that premise, but since this is not a political forum, I will not press the issue. Suffice to say, countries and their leaders uniting to combat evil groups that instigated a war through various unexpected attacks sounds more like the armies of the free lands of Middle Earth marching against the hoards of Mordor only because the Dark Lord made war on their lands.

Or, to quote a wise commander from Ithilien:

"War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise."
The Two Towers: "The Window on the West."

[goldfinger]

I think we're looking too much at the political here. Look, Sauron was very good at manipulating others into following him, like for instance the Elves of Eregion, the Numenoreans, and the Haradrim and Easterlings. He filled them with a radical allegiance which was hard to break. So if we look at the facts and not too much outside of the box you get your answer. But that's just my knowledge of this subject.

[Kuruharan]

Was not the evil in their hearts the same?

Perhaps, but that is not the point. In spite of the saying, cleanliness is not really next to godliness.

He filled them with a radical allegiance which was hard to break.

And we get back to my question of how the orcs fit into the Haradrim and Easterling worldview...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by mormegil

My feelings is that they felt personally and believed Sauron viewed them as superior to orcs in every way, with the exception of making good cannon fodder which orcs excelled at. Contrarily I think orcs viewed the humans as weak and not as useful as themselves.

I think there's a good point here. There's also Isengard's example - orcs did the fighting, Men did the guarding.

The "swarthy" Easterling Men were allied with "evil" since the 1st age, so they just might be used to it...

[Väinämöinen]

Originally Posted by mormegil

My feelings is that they felt personally and believed Sauron viewed them as superior to orcs in every way, with the exception of making good cannon fodder which orcs excelled at. Contrarily I think orcs viewed the humans as weak and not as useful as themselves.

I have always wondered more about Sauron and the orcs. After all, Morgoth created the orcs as a race, and Sauron was of a different temperament. Does anyone know of any specific passages from the Lord of the Rings or Unfinished Tales that mentions Sauron's view of the matter?

Undoubtedly Sauron took pleasure in cruelty, torment, terror. And with terror he thus enjoyed bringing about creatures to instill fear, to coerce his enemies. But in comparison to Melkor, the Morgoth, he was qualitatively a different Dark Lord altogether. The sheer rapacity of Morgoth cost him the War of the Jewels in the first place. To what extent did Morgoth's character as a Vala, as the most broadly gifted of the Valar, skew his relation to the orcs? He was not a maker like Aule, that enjoyed the making and the thing made, but wanted to be served.

And did not Sauron after the fall of Angband have more utopian desires? He was a Maia of Aule, if my memory serves me well...

My stereotypical understanding of how Tolkien characterizes the forces of evil in his mythopoeia is: they all hate each other because evil can't get along with itself (I'm not sure this is true)-- Orcs hate their masters, masters hate the orcs, masters privilege dark Numenoreans and lower Maiar, etc.

Any one, any one?

By the way, I'm new to this forum. But not to Tolkien's mythopoeia.

[LadyBrooke]

Welcome to the forums! Refreshing to have a new member that is (presumably, based on the name, long coherent post, and the fact that you're not trying to sell anything) not a spam bot.

Originally Posted by Väinämöinen

But in comparison to Melkor, the Morgoth, he was qualitatively a different Dark Lord altogether. The sheer rapacity of Morgoth cost him the War of the Jewels in the first place. To what extent did Morgoth's character as a Vala, as the most broadly gifted of the Valar, skew his relation to the orcs? He was not a maker like Aule, that enjoyed the making and the thing made, but wanted to be served.

Hmm...but at the same time, unless my memory serves me wrong, wasn't Morgoth supposed to be quite like Aule? Of course, Aule created the dwarves out of tenderness and impatience, so there are the differences...I believe, personally, that Sauron wouldn't have been opposed to creating things to serve him. He did after all, twist the Nazgul from humans into wraiths and was the former commander of the werewolves in the First Age. The Nazgul seem to me, a more refined version of Morgoth's twisting of elves (or men, Maiar, ect. based on your personal belief and canon), designed to create servants. At the same time, the book orcs seem to have a bit more independence then the Nazgul, able to speak words that are almost anti-Sauron, where as the Nazgul are completely in thrall to him. Morgoth's servants and creations almost seem to have more independence of him then Sauron's do...

And did not Sauron after the fall of Angband have more utopian desires? He was a Maia of Aule, if my memory serves me well...

Your memory serves you well. Sauron, as well as Saruman, were both Maiar of Aule. He did have utopian desires...one of the things I find interesting, is that in spite of the typical portrayal of Tolkien's works as black and white, Tolkien wrote (in one of his letters, which I am too lazy to go look up at 2 a.m...) that he did not write absolute evil. Thoughts?

To slightly answer the original question, I find that the orcs in the book are not nearly as filthy or barbarian like as the ones in the movie. They do have leaders, and a somewhat complex leadership system...of course, there are the hints of cannibalism, but even those tend to be somewhat complex, such as the banter between Shagrat and Gorbag about who should go in the pot.... Actually, Shagrat seems a good argument against the idea of orcs as barbarians - he talks about the good old days, and clearly shows reasoning skills. Certain orcs, such as Azog seem to have set up kingdoms...while they're not as advanced as the elves or men, they seem to not be on the animal like level from the movie.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Welcome to the forums! Refreshing to have a new member that is (presumably, based on the name, long coherent post, and the fact that you're not trying to sell anything) not a spam bot.

I seconf this!

Originally Posted by Brooke

Your memory serves you well. Sauron, as well as Saruman, were both Maiar of Aule. He did have utopian desires...one of the things I find interesting, is that in spite of the typical portrayal of Tolkien's works as black and white, Tolkien wrote (in one of his letters, which I am too lazy to go look up at 2 a.m...) that he did not write absolute evil. Thoughts?

I remember suggesting in some other thread that not a single person is perfectly black or perfectly white. I gave Morgoth as an example (he wasn't evil at the start, and before he marred the Ainulindale he played a role in making it, and therefore Ea) and someone quoted Tolkien's letter that said that Morgoth is indeed not pure black.

Originally Posted by Brooke

To slightly answer the original question, I find that the orcs in the book are not nearly as filthy or barbarian like as the ones in the movie. They do have leaders, and a somewhat complex leadership system...of course, there are the hints of cannibalism, but even those tend to be somewhat complex, such as the banter between Shagrat and Gorbag about who should go in the pot....

Agreed and seconded. Also, Gorbag has quite a personality - an orc philosopher? Grishnakh is another interesting one as well.

Originally Posted by Väinämöinen

I have always wondered more about Sauron and the orcs. After all, Morgoth created the orcs as a race, and Sauron was of a different temperament. Does anyone know of any specific passages from the Lord of the Rings or Unfinished Tales that mentions Sauron's view of the matter?

I remember a passage about the Witch King commanding a futile assault on Minas Tirith, ordering the orcs to a sure death, just to feel through the defenses of the city.

A lot of orcish atttacks are based on numbers - there are more of us so we just run forward and drown you, even though many of us will be killed in the process.

[Väinämöinen]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Welcome to the forums! Refreshing to have a new member that is (presumably, based on the name, long coherent post, and the fact that you're not trying to sell anything) not a spam bot.

Thanks.

Hmm...but at the same time, unless my memory serves me wrong, wasn't Morgoth supposed to be quite like Aule? Of course, Aule created the dwarves out of tenderness and impatience, so there are the differences...I believe, personally, that Sauron wouldn't have been opposed to creating things to serve him.

It's just that the creation of the orcs seems to me such a great cruelty and perversion that it could only have originated with Morgoth. Sauron no doubt found them useful, but the question is if he would have gone out of his way to invent them in the first place, but who can say.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Väinämöinen

I have always wondered more about Sauron and the orcs. After all, Morgoth created the orcs as a race, and Sauron was of a different temperament. Does anyone know of any specific passages from the Lord of the Rings or Unfinished Tales that mentions Sauron's view of the matter?

First, let me echo the others in welcoming you to the Downs!

Sauron apparently looked on the Orcs as nothing more than a tool. There is a passage from The Two Towers that seems to reflect his view of them.
Though he knew Shelob took them for food, he wasn't concerned.

And Orcs, they were useful slaves, but he had them in plenty. If now and again Shelob caught them to stay her appetite, she was welcome: he could spare them.

Shelob's Lair

Looks as though Sauron didn't care about Orcs at all, beyond their service to him.

Originally Posted by Väinämöinen

It's just that the creation of the orcs seems to me such a great cruelty and perversion that it could only have originated with Morgoth. Sauron no doubt found them useful, but the question is if he would have gone out of his way to invent them in the first place, but who can say.

As for the "maker" of Orcs, The Silmarillion seems to make it clear that they were the design of Morgoth.

....thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves...

Of the Coming of the Elves

[Galadriel55]

Tolkien compares Aule and Morgoth in the Valaquenta (The Silmarillion):

Melkor was jealous of him, for Aule was most like himself in thought and powers; and there was long strife between them, in which Melkor ever marred or undid the works of Aule, and Aule grew weary in repairing the tumults and disorders of Melkor. Both, also, desired to make things of their own that should be new and unthougt of by others, and delighted in the praise of their skill. But Aule remained faithful to Eru and submitted all that he did to his will; and he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel. Whereas Melkor spent his spirit in envy and hate, until at last he could make nothing save in mockery of the thought of others, and all their works he destroyed if he could.

So indeed the making of the Dwarves cannot be compared to the making of the Orcs. Aule a) made his own creation and b) gave it up for Eru. Melkor a) marred Elves and b) did the most hateful deed to Eru (there's also a quote about this but I can't find it).

What did Morgoth think of Orcs? Probably he didn't really care about them very much (like Sauron) - he had plenty to spare.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As for the "maker" of Orcs, The Silmarillion seems to make it clear that they were the design of Morgoth.

To clarify - the question I was trying to answer was not who made the Orcs - Morgoth is of course the one who did, but rather I interpreted the original question as asking would Sauron have been opposed or unwilling to make servants of his own, if Morgoth had not already made them, which was what I was getting at with the Nazgul - clearly, Sauron has no problem creating his own servants.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

TSo indeed the making of the Dwarves cannot be compared to the making of the Orcs. Aule a) made his own creation and b) gave it up for Eru. Melkor a) marred Elves and b) did the most hateful deed to Eru (there's also a quote about this but I can't find it).

Well, technically, compared means to note both similarities and differences between things...so, they can be compared. They're not the exact same thing of course, but then again, what is in this mythology. The thing I was driving at, is that both of them wanted something of their own. The difference, of course, lies in how they handled it when confronted with their crime, and what they made them out of. However, they both rebel against Eru, but Aule repents.

And what is a creation? Could the orcs not be called creations of Morgoth, as he did in fact create them from elves? Whether the original material is elves or whatever Aule made his out of, the end result is a new race. Of course, that's not even considering the fact that Tolkien never made up his mind about how the orcs came into being - in the earliest myths, in BoLT, they're made from stone and slime. At various other places, they're bred from animals (Morgoth's Ring), men, maiar....

[Eruhen]

I would probably hesitate to call the Orcs a 'creation' of Morgoth. I have a feeling that the Professor would feel the same way; he might, however, be comfortable calling them a sub-creation. For Tolkien, 'creation' per se was specifically creatio ex nihilo, creation from nothing, a power which only Eru/God has. All any of the Ainur can do is creatio ex paleo, creation from existing matter, as evidenced by Aulë's creation of the Dwarves.

Just my two cents, for all they're worth. And, by the way, it's nice to be back on the Downs!