The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-05-2005, 11:30 PM   #1
The Perky Ent
Maniacal Mage
 
The Perky Ent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side!
Posts: 3,332
The Perky Ent has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to The Perky Ent
Silmaril Ulmo and Aulë: Lazy, Busy, or Unaware

In 'Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath', we know that Maedhros and Maglor are the only living survivors of the sons of Feanor. After being convinced by his brother, Maglor helps Maedhros break into the camp of the Valar, and steals the remaining simarils. Maedhros can't take the burning the simaril causes him, and jumps into a fiery chasm, along with the Simaril. Maglor, on the other hand, throws the simaril into the sea, and 'he came never back among the people of the Elves'. Wether he is dead, or walks the shores forever singing tragic songs of despair is of debate.

Sorry for the little history lesson, but it's important to my topic (which I will now get to!). With that little recap, we know that the brothers couldn't take the burning of the simarils, and threw the simarils into the ocean and earth. According to Quenta Silmarilion, that's the end of that. But then I started thinking: "Wait a minute. The valar deeply wanted the simaril. And Ulmo is the God of the sea. And Aulë is that of land. Wouldn't they, as they were the masters of those elements, be able to reclaim the simarils? Ulmo could have spent his times underwater (since it is mentioned in the Silmarilion that he spends most of his time away from Valinor, in the oceans of Middle Earth) looking for the lost simaril of Maglor. It couldn't have gotten that far from the coast. Being the Lord of water, the Aquaman if you will, surely he could have found it.

And what about Aulë (Aulë didn't actually pop into my head until I had finished the first paragraph ). He is a master of the lands. Although he doesn't spend as much time away from Valinor as Ulmo, surely he could have taken the time to look for Maedhros' simaril. He couldn't have gotten that far from the camp of the valar, and a 'fissure' couldn't be that hard to find (especially for someone as powerful and well known as Aulë). So here is my question: Were Ulmo and Aulë too lazy to look for the simarils (ie they felt it was best just to leave them alone), too busy with their Valar duties to stop and look for the simarils, or were they just unaware of the first paragraph i wrote, and dindn't know of the simarils fate?
__________________
'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'
The Perky Ent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2005, 08:36 AM   #2
Gurthang
Sword of Spirit
 
Gurthang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Oh, I'm around.
Posts: 1,507
Gurthang has just left Hobbiton.
I would actually go with 'D'. It might have been that they were forbidden to retrieve them.

Since Feanor didn't give the Silmarils to the Valar, the Valar had no right to them. Manwe might have considered them stolen property if they had been brought back and given to him. It is very possible that they, Aule and Ulmo, would have known where the Silmarils were, but knowing that they would have known I think they must have been told not to go get them. If that is not the case, I would have to go with option 'C': they didn't know/couldn't find them.

But it could also be that the Valar no longer had use for the Silmarils. The Two Trees had been dead for 10,000(?) years. I think that in the Silmarillion it says that if the Silmarils had been brought back quick enough, the Trees could have been saved. With so much time passed, the Trees were likely dead beyond recalling. And since the Trees could not be brought back using the Silmarils, the Valar had no more need of them.
__________________
I'm on a Mission from God.
Gurthang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2005, 10:00 AM   #3
The Perky Ent
Maniacal Mage
 
The Perky Ent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side!
Posts: 3,332
The Perky Ent has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to The Perky Ent
Silmaril

I can see your point. Sure, they could have just taken it from him when he refused to give it to them after the two trees died, but it wasn't theirs, so they didn't. Plus all those other reasons Good to see the valar have some morals. Still, I agree that at this point the trees could not be saved. However, the simarils would see be of some use to the Valar. If not to obtain their light, then just as some sort of memorial. This kinda brings my B options. I highly doubt they would be unaware though, for an object that had ruled the fate of the first age.
__________________
'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'
The Perky Ent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2005, 10:50 AM   #4
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,346
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
In the case of the Silmaril in the earth, there is good reason to have left it alone. This Silmaril was, as noted, cast there by Maedhros, presumably during the tumults that destroyed Beleriand. Aule would naturally be loath to retrieve it for the simple reason of doing more damage. He might have the POWER to go digging around in the earth to retrieve the Silmaril, but doing so would cause tumultuous damage. It's like when the Valar were fighting Melkor in an earlier time; they were afraid to fight to the fullest of their ability for fear that the resulting chaos would endanger the Children of Eru.

Furthermore, what POINT is there to the Valar retrieving the Silmarils? It's all very well to have them in your posession, but the only reason the Valar wanted them in the first place was to rekindle the Two Trees- a rekindling that would involve the breaking of the Silmarils, a task that only Feanor could accomplish.

And as Feanor is locked up in Mandos until the end of time, and since he pretty much made clear that he wasn't unlocking them in the near future, I really doubt that the Valar had any reason to go Silmaril-hunting. The Silmarils were just as safe under 1000 feet of stone and earth, or under the accumulating silt of the seas as they would be in the hands of Manwe or lighting up the sky with Earendil.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2005, 09:28 PM   #5
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,850
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
This will be brief for now, but I've always thought that Ulmo simply wouldn't want to retrieve it. Why would he? Of the Valar, he was the most directly involved and informed, as well as seemingly the most apt (and vocal) in perceiving impending doom, especially as it related to the happenings in Beleriand.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2005, 12:48 PM   #6
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
I think also they would think that they are best out of reach even with Feanor and his son's dead or as good as. The one that they do get under their control they set in the sky. What would they do with the others that would have the same symbolism? Three Silmaril stars reduces rather than increases the impact.

I think there is a lot of symbolism - The Silmarils are the antitype of the Three Elven rings. The Silmarils are the product of the greatest craftsmen, are withheld from the common good, are seized by the evil being that desires them and the result is much destruction and suffering. They are in essence trapped fire and finish up distributed among the other three elements - earth, water and air.

The three rings in origin come from the earth and represent and have particular influence over each of the three other elements. By bestowing them on peopel who wil use them forthe common good they are saved from the evil power who desires them and help to preserve the realm of Lorien, the refuge of Imladris and aid Gandalf in his work.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2005, 04:19 PM   #7
Glirdan
Energetic Essence
 
Glirdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew
Posts: 3,449
Glirdan is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via MSN to Glirdan
My belief is that, for the Silmaril that was cast into the water, Ulmo might have taken it. Might being the key word. He might have been comanded to not retrieve it as some believe, which is probably likely.

As for the one cast into the earth, Aulë would have had to go under water and then use his power there to cast open the fissure in which Maehdros cast himself in. That might all have seemed to much work to Aulë. In which case he is landed in the category of lazy.

So it might have been a mixture of of the first two possibilities. It's highly unlikely that they didn't know the fate of the other two Silmarils, especially the one of water because that's where Ulmo rules and knows (or should know) what goes on. And if he didn't know right away, he would have found out from Ossë.
__________________
I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!
Fenris Wolf
Glirdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 06:39 PM   #8
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
The Valar are not lazy. They made mistakes. They acted wrongly and at the wrong times. Say whatever you want, bt they are NOT lazy.

Coming back to the topic. I think that even if one of the Valar came upon a Silmaril accidentally, they wouldn't take it. They've learned how much damage greed/lust over such things can cause. They didn't want to repeat 1st age all over again, destroying the rest of ME in the process.

The Silmarils are simply too powerful. As Melian said about something else, "the heart of the maker still lives in [them]". They flame up the world as soon as they are touched. In a way, they control the fate of Arda. I'm not sure how much of a stress this is, but in another way they are like three One Rings: having some will of their own. Maybe they just didn't want to be found?
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 05:35 AM   #9
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Lazzy? I think they do know exactly were these Silmarilis are and protect them from being found.

Respectfuly
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 02:30 PM   #10
oddkins
Pile O'Bones
 
oddkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 16
oddkins has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurthang
But it could also be that the Valar no longer had use for the Silmarils. The Two Trees had been dead for 10,000(?) years. I think that in the Silmarillion it says that if the Silmarils had been brought back quick enough, the Trees could have been saved. With so much time passed, the Trees were likely dead beyond recalling. And since the Trees could not be brought back using the Silmarils, the Valar had no more need of them.
Quite possibly, but it all seems to be tied into prophecy:

Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea and air, lay locked within them, when Feanor brought them before Varda to be hallowed, (SIL Chap 7.) and this was borne out in the event...

"And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters." SIL Chap 24.

After the War of Wrath the Vanyar and many of the exiled Noldor returned to Valinor in triumph, but their joy in victory was diminished for they knew that "those jewels could not be found or brought together unless the world be broken and remade."

However, the Valar will be able to make use of the Silmarils at the End of Days to help Heal Arda, for in Mandos' Second prophecy, regarding the Last Battle, following Melkor's final return and defeat in the Dagor Dagorath the world will be changed and the Silmarils will be recovered by the Valar. Then Fëanor will be released from the Halls of Mandos and give Yavanna the Silmarils and she will break them and with their light she will revive the Two Trees, the Pelóri Mountains will be flattened and the light of the Two Trees will fill the world in eternal bliss.
__________________
Sometimes in heaven a fable is born..nobody knows where it comes from; it gives us strength and it tells us of love, and everyone of us is touched in their hearts...
oddkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2011, 12:00 PM   #11
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
A useful quote?

Quote:
... And Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them [the Silmarili].
~The Sil

It would be too dangerous to stir such a power again.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 06:41 AM   #12
Galadriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Galadriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
Galadriel has just left Hobbiton.
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
The Valar are not lazy. They made mistakes. They acted wrongly and at the wrong times. Say whatever you want, bt they are NOT lazy.
Well, they could have certainly worked harder, considering they are both gods and rulers.

Quote:
Coming back to the topic. I think that even if one of the Valar came upon a Silmaril accidentally, they wouldn't take it. They've learned how much damage greed/lust over such things can cause. They didn't want to repeat 1st age all over again, destroying the rest of ME in the process.
I'm not too sure about that. After all, if they did not want anything to do with the Silmarils, they would not have let Eärendil come to Valinor and bind one upon his brow. And the First Age, sad to say, was partially their fault, for cursing the Elves in the first place, when they already knew the whole mission of the Noldor would lead to disaster.

Quote:
The Silmarils are simply too powerful. As Melian said about something else, "the heart of the maker still lives in [them]". They flame up the world as soon as they are touched. In a way, they control the fate of Arda. I'm not sure how much of a stress this is, but in another way they are like three One Rings: having some will of their own. Maybe they just didn't want to be found?
Powerful? I think of them as something akin to money. Not terribly powerful just lying there, but powerful when the demand for them rises so that half a continent is swallowed by the Sea. I don't think they were too much like the One Ring (or any of the Rings), since Tolkien explicitly stated that it had a mind of its own, but I don't recall him saying any such thing about the Silmarils. Even so, you do have a point. It seems strange that they should be affiliated with the elements - earth, water and air - when they originally had nothing to do with them.
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil
Galadriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 07:38 AM   #13
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel View Post
I'm not too sure about that. After all, if they did not want anything to do with the Silmarils, they would not have let Eärendil come to Valinor and bind one upon his brow.
That Silmaril was Earendil's by right. I think that not letting him wear it would be interfering on their part, and messing with them again.

Quote:
And the First Age, sad to say, was partially their fault, for cursing the Elves in the first place, when they already knew the whole mission of the Noldor would lead to disaster.
Somehow, I don't think there was much cursing involved. Mandos made a prophecy.... or did he? I'm not sure if the Doom of Noldor is a curse or simply him telling what lies ahead to stop the Noldor from going...

Quote:
Powerful? I think of them as something akin to money. Not terribly powerful just lying there, but powerful when the demand for them rises so that half a continent is swallowed by the Sea.
I guess you're right. They calm down when they are left alone, but are in the eye of the storm when someone touches them again. But on the other hand, although they don't have minds of their own, fate just seems to favor them. And, if you ask me, they are the second-major character of The Sil (yes, character!), after the Oath of Feanor. The third woud be Morgoth.


I sometimes wonder if they were too... otherwordly? to be left in peace in ME. It says that Luthien was too beautiful to live for long when she wore the Silmaril. And maybe the Silmarilli by themselves are too beautiful to be admired by all and yet not be lusted for.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 02:56 AM   #14
Galadriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Galadriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
Galadriel has just left Hobbiton.
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
That Silmaril was Earendil's by right. I think that not letting him wear it would be interfering on their part, and messing with them again.
True enough, but I would think twice before letting any cursed jewellery into my realm (if I had one). This is not really related to the argument, but I don't think the Silmarils should be anyone's by right - just like certain heritage buildings are not any single person's by right.

Quote:
Somehow, I don't think there was much cursing involved. Mandos made a prophecy.... or did he? I'm not sure if the Doom of Noldor is a curse or simply him telling what lies ahead to stop the Noldor from going...
As far as I can remember, it was a curse.

Quote:
I guess you're right. They calm down when they are left alone, but are in the eye of the storm when someone touches them again. But on the other hand, although they don't have minds of their own, fate just seems to favor them. And, if you ask me, they are the second-major character of The Sil (yes, character!), after the Oath of Feanor. The third woud be Morgoth.
Intriguing observation

Quote:
I sometimes wonder if they were too... otherwordly? to be left in peace in ME. It says that Luthien was too beautiful to live for long when she wore the Silmaril. And maybe the Silmarilli by themselves are too beautiful to be admired by all and yet not be lusted for.
I'm not sure about this. Lúthien, of course, is a child of Ilúvatar, which implies that He had some power over her making. With the Silmarils, they were made directly by Fëanor, and even though they had the Light of the Trees in them, they had little and less to do with the One (or indeed with the Valar). Even so, they appear otherworldly to me, as I do believe that Fëanor had skill that was directly gifted to him by Ilúvatar (the same way Lúthien's beauty was gifted to her). With Lúthien, there would be genetics involved, but I do not recall either Thingol or Melian described as being so startlingly beautiful.
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil
Galadriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:04 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.