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Old 10-01-2002, 12:06 PM   #81
HerenIstarion
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Sting

I'm reviving this thread for the use fo buttbarliman and other ppl writing articles on absolute corruption of absolute power
[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Old 10-01-2002, 01:07 PM   #82
Cazoz
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At the moment I'm re-reading TTT and haven't got to book 4 yet. After that I'll probably skip to the Mordor bits.
(Guilty admission, the past 3/4 times I've read the books, I've skipped book 4 and the Mordor F&S bits, sorry!)

So I'm a bit rusty on this part of the story, but I just wanted to jump in an say how much I've enjoyed reading all of your posts, even totally conflicting ones have been steeped with insight and intelligent use of evidence.

But for what it's worth, I'd go for the middle-ground theory that it's the power of the Ring conpelling Frodo to talk more viciously and harshly than when he was previously uncorrupted by the Ring, and obviously less protective.

You'll hate me for this, but I'd compare this part from the book to that bit in the film where Bilbo goes all weird, grasping at the Ring in Rivendell. I know this is about the books and sorry for the movie reference, but this is how I'd see Frodo's Ring-induced flip-out mood swing.
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Old 10-28-2002, 04:29 AM   #83
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Sting

I always figured out as though PJ showed Bilbo actually going black in the face, that was as Frodo saw him, and no actual physical change occurred indeed
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Old 10-28-2002, 10:31 AM   #84
lathspell
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Interesting thought, Rose!

I think you are right indeed, but I'll read that part of the book again to form my own opinion (though that is most likely the same as yours).
Now there popped in my head another question related to this.

In the end of LotR, when Frodo sails away, he tells Sam that there he will get lots of children.

Quote:
'... And also you have Rose, and Elanor, and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks, and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see...'
This is from The Grey Havens - RotK.

So Frodo was in the end foresighted, for a bit. So was the Ring, if you take it true what Rose says. Does this mean anything? The Ring affects mortals in many ways. Is the foresight of Frodo something he got by wearing and wielding the Ring.
There is no mention of Frodo being foresighted anywhere else, and in (I believe) Rivendell Frodo and Gandalf have a conversation in which Frodo says something with as far as I can see, and Gandalf replies: 'But you cannot see far.'
Did Frodo have no foresight at all there, or did it grow as he spent more time with the Ring?

And after all some words of Saruman come to me. In The Scouring of the Shire he says this to Frodo: 'You have grown, Hafling. Yes, you have grown indeed.'
Does this in anyway relate to the things said above?

Well, I must think this over a bit more. It's far too much to come to your mind in a minute or so.

Hope to see some other opinions on this as well,

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: A very interesting thought, Rose!
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Old 10-31-2002, 11:01 PM   #85
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Ok...Cazoz, in answer of your last remark...

When frodo saw Bilbo at rivendell,he turned black,if Sam saw Frodo at Mt.Doom, wouldnt he also have turned black instead of wearing a whiterobe? You've got to remember that the ring's power is evil not good.

I agree with the earlier comment that it was Gandalf,because who else would have that kind of authority and...magic,so that he could be seen like that?!? and I do believe that the "ring of fire" was indeed the one metioned at the end of the book that Gandalf is wearing.

Does that make sense?

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Alcerin ]

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Alcerin ]
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Old 09-29-2004, 05:02 AM   #86
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Bringing this up for the sake of Chapter by Chapter, Ring Goes South discussion
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Old 09-30-2004, 09:56 PM   #87
Elladan and Elrohir
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Showing up way late for this discussion (pity), but a few points:

1) About Olorin and Manwe: I don't think we can take Tolkien's statements in UT about this at face value like we can with LOTR. It's pretty obvious that JRRT's views were still to some extent undeveloped regarding this, though he obviously leaned toward what all have commonly supposed, that Olorin is a Maia, not Manwe Sulimo.

The same goes to an even greater extent to the HOME series. Yes, they contain valuable insights about M-E, but they cannot be taken as gospel as can LOTR and Silmarillion. Tolkien had not completed his world; he was still thinking out many complex issues (such as the origin of orcs). It is truly sad that he could not finish his mythology to his satisfaction before his death; yet I think that, similar to the tree in "Leaf by Niggle," it would never truly be finished. There was always something else to work on, some new question to ponder and try to answer. Thus, we cannot hold HOME in the same regard as LOTR etc.

2) I'm taking the tentative position that it was indeed the Ring that spoke. As Rose pointed out, the voice comes "out of the fire". Also, as others have pointed out, it was "a commanding voice," a bit incongruous for Frodo since he had just been panting for Gollum to get away.

As for why did the Ring not speak previous to that point, here's a point to consider that, as far as I can see, no one has discussed here: The Ring was growing in power as it got closer to Mount Doom. There, on the very slopes of the mountain where it was forged, its power would be almost at a height. It makes sense, then, that it might even have the power to speak here.

Then we are left with the question: Why did the Ring not want Gollum to touch it? At this point, that's the one huge hole in my argument. Why wouldn't it want Gollum to beat Frodo and take it? He would immediately put it on, and in a few moments the Nazgul would be there, and all would be over.

In one of Tolkien's Letters, he says that if Gollum had not played false, and if he had stayed with Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom, he would in the end have taken the Ring by force. But then he would have seen that the only way he could keep the Ring and hurt Sauron would be to destroy it and him together, and he would also have seen that this would be his greatest service to Frodo. He then would have voluntarily cast himself into the flames. JRRT went on to say that Frodo would have had a similar vision after he had put on the Ring, but he was immediately attacked by Gollum.

The only surmision I can reach at this moment is that the first part of what JRRT says, about that the only way for Gollum to keep the Ring and hurt Sauron would be to destroy it and him together, still holds true in this scenario. Perhaps the Ring realized that Gollum WOULD have thrown himself into the fire, had he taken the Ring. But then, Frodo likely would have done the same, so I don't know.

Would speculate further, but I am going to bed. Elen sila lumenn omentialvo.
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Old 09-30-2004, 11:43 PM   #88
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Welcome, E&E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir
The same goes to an even greater extent to the HOME series. Yes, they contain valuable insights about M-E, but they cannot be taken as gospel as can LOTR and Silmarillion.
In the light of the quote above, I cordially invite you to participate in ‘Canonicity’: the Book or the Reader? discussion

BTW - gospel <-- good spell <-- good news

I suppose that Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth may be taken exactly 'as gospel' - as good news, with glimpses of Eru's future incarnation and continuation of elves in Arda Remade.

But, apart from kidding, please accept my comliments for very astute and articulate post

Cheers
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Old 10-02-2004, 08:55 PM   #89
Elladan and Elrohir
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Thank you much for your kind words, as well as for the invite to the other thread. I may take you up on it -- if I can sift through the pages and pages of past discussion in it. I hate to jump right into a discussion when I haven't even read all of it thus far. Nonetheless, thank you again!
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