Let's Go Punting In Mirkwood? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kalimac · 11-24-2002, 11:43 PM

You can probably guess what this is about - it's one of those minor points which are fascinating (well, to me anyway) since they're not really explained. In "The Hobbit" when Bilbo and the Dwarves come across the dark stream, they very fortuitously happen to find a little boat at the other side of the stream, which they haul in with a rope. It wasn't abandoned, since it was still tied up with a painter, but although Tolkien tells us that Thorin "kept his bow ready" in case the owner of the boat appeared, they never found out whose it was.

So where *did* that boat come from? As far as I can tell they were still a fair distance from where the Elvenking lived, and Mirkwood doesn't exactly seem to have had a large population of anything that would be interested in or capable of using a boat (and it must have been a fairly substantial little thing, too, if it could hold the weight of three or four Dwarves at a time). So was it kept by Elves, just in case, or abandoned, or just a (forgive me) Eru Ex Machina? Just curious, since it never does get explained otherwise.

lathspell · 11-25-2002, 04:06 AM

I've always thought the boat was Beorn's. I dunno why but it seems logical to me, and that therefore he knew that he could sent them on the Elven-path.

greetings,
lathspell

The Silver-shod Muse · 11-25-2002, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Eru Ex Machina

I always assumed it was an elven boat, perhaps a fisherelf or a hermit, but "Eru Ex Machina" is an amusing idea too. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Arwen Imladris · 11-25-2002, 03:30 PM

I would tend to think that whoever made it, it wasn't the elves. The boat does not seem very elven. The elves would have used strings like in lothlorien. Also, the elves didn't often go into that side of the forest. I agree with lathspell, it was Beorn.

Rumil · 11-25-2002, 06:07 PM

Could the boat have belonged to the Woodmen? I agree it doesn't seem too elvish as it's rope had decayed. (The elves weave to last!) The woodmen seem to have stayed mostly in the West of Mirkwood, perhaps this was the relic of some bold explorer who never came back!

Manwe Sulimo · 11-25-2002, 06:48 PM

Well, the Elves of Lórien also used boats (how else would they know to make them so durable?), so you can't really say that the Woodelves would use a rope. Also, it's a little tough to string together a rope bridge just above the water, as opposed to over a chasm or something.

And "Elvish" isn't a generic term; the Noldor (related to Galadriel) Elves of Lórien may have been skilled at weaving rope, while the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood may not have been so skilled, and therefore been unable to create a "rope bridge".

It's my opinion that the boat was just a ferry for the Silvan hunters from Thranduil's caverns. The deteriorating rope was just the Silvan's not-as-good workmanship; who knows how long that rope had been there?

Also, how could any mortals (or Beorn) have been well-enough established in Mirkwood to be able to get a boat in there?

-Imrahil- · 11-25-2002, 07:10 PM

Interesting...

I haven't thought about the boat before. Does Beorn travel into Mirkwood much? I remembered his domain stretching from his house to the feet of the Misty Mountains. Though he must have journeyed to Dale from time to time.

Hard to say, woodelves maybe, but ever since Lothlorien in LotR I think of them as using ropes to go across rivers. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Man-of-the-Wold · 11-26-2002, 12:22 AM

Well, the wood men and others of the Vale of Anduin (who were later termed Beornings, after Beorn and Grimbeorn became more of a cheiftain) were more of West-Mirkwood thing, and if they traversed the forest it would have been on the Old Forest Road, which went in and out of various states of repair.

But the Path was enchanted and in their eyes owned by the Wood Elves of Thranduil's Realm, who perhaps had gone that far west in some time.

Clearly, those Wood Elves were not quite as wary as the ones in Lothlorien. Doubtless, Celeborn's thanes would have done better at not letting Gollum escape, aided or no.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-27-2002, 06:01 AM

The hunters who were chasing the deer. Maybe.

Kalimac · 11-28-2002, 01:29 AM

Thanks for the answers, guys - I was just completely puzzled but this helps organize the possibilities somewhat [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Eomer, I'd always been under the impression that the deer hunters were Wood-Elves, Mirkwood just doesn't seem like the kind of the place that men would want to live. Argh. It's confusing. Maybe, though, the boat was Elvish, but from a long time earlier - the Wood-Elves may not have been by that river for quite a long time, and the boat was just left there for whichever reason (which would explain why even an Elven rope decayed somewhat).

Though as Manwe points out, the Wood-Elves may not have been quite the rope-makers that the Lorien Elves were (and the Lorien Elves do seem a little more skilled in crafts in general; it's hard to imagine the Dwarves-in-the-Barrels trick getting past them). Still, it's a good bet that their ropes weren't exactly shoddy, so maybe the boat had been there for twenty or thirty years or so. I don't know why I was taking it for granted that it had to have been abandoned recently (and of COURSE an Elvish boat would have a strong sealant on it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]).

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-28-2002, 10:49 AM

I never thought that Men would go near either. But I never thought that Elves would hunt with dogs.

the witch king · 11-29-2002, 05:09 PM

im gessing wood men or trapers/hunters

11-24-2002, 11:43 PM	#1
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Let's Go Punting In Mirkwood? You can probably guess what this is about - it's one of those minor points which are fascinating (well, to me anyway) since they're not really explained. In "The Hobbit" when Bilbo and the Dwarves come across the dark stream, they very fortuitously happen to find a little boat at the other side of the stream, which they haul in with a rope. It wasn't abandoned, since it was still tied up with a painter, but although Tolkien tells us that Thorin "kept his bow ready" in case the owner of the boat appeared, they never found out whose it was. So where did that boat come from? As far as I can tell they were still a fair distance from where the Elvenking lived, and Mirkwood doesn't exactly seem to have had a large population of anything that would be interested in or capable of using a boat (and it must have been a fairly substantial little thing, too, if it could hold the weight of three or four Dwarves at a time). So was it kept by Elves, just in case, or abandoned, or just a (forgive me) Eru Ex Machina? Just curious, since it never does get explained otherwise. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-25-2002, 04:06 AM	#2
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	I've always thought the boat was Beorn's. I dunno why but it seems logical to me, and that therefore he knew that he could sent them on the Elven-path. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

11-25-2002, 03:30 PM	#4
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I would tend to think that whoever made it, it wasn't the elves. The boat does not seem very elven. The elves would have used strings like in lothlorien. Also, the elves didn't often go into that side of the forest. I agree with lathspell, it was Beorn. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

11-25-2002, 06:07 PM	#5
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Could the boat have belonged to the Woodmen? I agree it doesn't seem too elvish as it's rope had decayed. (The elves weave to last!) The woodmen seem to have stayed mostly in the West of Mirkwood, perhaps this was the relic of some bold explorer who never came back! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

11-25-2002, 06:48 PM	#6
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Well, the Elves of Lórien also used boats (how else would they know to make them so durable?), so you can't really say that the Woodelves would use a rope. Also, it's a little tough to string together a rope bridge just above the water, as opposed to over a chasm or something. And "Elvish" isn't a generic term; the Noldor (related to Galadriel) Elves of Lórien may have been skilled at weaving rope, while the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood may not have been so skilled, and therefore been unable to create a "rope bridge". It's my opinion that the boat was just a ferry for the Silvan hunters from Thranduil's caverns. The deteriorating rope was just the Silvan's not-as-good workmanship; who knows how long that rope had been there? Also, how could any mortals (or Beorn) have been well-enough established in Mirkwood to be able to get a boat in there? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-25-2002, 07:10 PM	#7
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	Interesting... I haven't thought about the boat before. Does Beorn travel into Mirkwood much? I remembered his domain stretching from his house to the feet of the Misty Mountains. Though he must have journeyed to Dale from time to time. Hard to say, woodelves maybe, but ever since Lothlorien in LotR I think of them as using ropes to go across rivers. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

11-26-2002, 12:22 AM	#8
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Well, the wood men and others of the Vale of Anduin (who were later termed Beornings, after Beorn and Grimbeorn became more of a cheiftain) were more of West-Mirkwood thing, and if they traversed the forest it would have been on the Old Forest Road, which went in and out of various states of repair. But the Path was enchanted and in their eyes owned by the Wood Elves of Thranduil's Realm, who perhaps had gone that far west in some time. Clearly, those Wood Elves were not quite as wary as the ones in Lothlorien. Doubtless, Celeborn's thanes would have done better at not letting Gollum escape, aided or no. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

11-27-2002, 06:01 AM	#9
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,916	The hunters who were chasing the deer. Maybe. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-28-2002, 01:29 AM	#10
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Thanks for the answers, guys - I was just completely puzzled but this helps organize the possibilities somewhat [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Eomer, I'd always been under the impression that the deer hunters were Wood-Elves, Mirkwood just doesn't seem like the kind of the place that men would want to live. Argh. It's confusing. Maybe, though, the boat was Elvish, but from a long time earlier - the Wood-Elves may not have been by that river for quite a long time, and the boat was just left there for whichever reason (which would explain why even an Elven rope decayed somewhat). Though as Manwe points out, the Wood-Elves may not have been quite the rope-makers that the Lorien Elves were (and the Lorien Elves do seem a little more skilled in crafts in general; it's hard to imagine the Dwarves-in-the-Barrels trick getting past them). Still, it's a good bet that their ropes weren't exactly shoddy, so maybe the boat had been there for twenty or thirty years or so. I don't know why I was taking it for granted that it had to have been abandoned recently (and of COURSE an Elvish boat would have a strong sealant on it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-28-2002, 10:49 AM	#11
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,916	I never thought that Men would go near either. But I never thought that Elves would hunt with dogs. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-29-2002, 05:09 PM	#12
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	im gessing wood men or trapers/hunters __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.