The Entwives?

[Laivine]

Samwise, in The Green Dragon
'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.' [...]
'This one was as big as an elm tree, and walking - walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch' [...]
'This one was walking, I tell you, and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors'

Are these "walking trees" Sam is talking about, the lost Entwives? I've been wondering for quite a while now. Treebeard also says something about the hobbits' country seems like a country the Entwives would like.

Well, since most of you know more about Tolkien and his writing than I do, I was hoping someone could give me their opinions on this? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Frodo Baggins]

Well, Treebeard did say that the Entwives would love the Shire. And Sam's cousin certianly saw something Entish. I think It may have been an Entwife.

[Túroch]

I tend to agree with Frodo on this one. It could be an entwife and that certinly would be nice. But then again it might be more akin to the Huorns that were present during the battle of the Hornburg.

[Arwen Imladris]

I think that it was an ent. Notice it says a tree-man, now, granted, sam's cousin probebly wouldn't have known the difference anyway... Oh well. I think that all of the entwives died, otherwise someone would have found them by now.

[Lindolirian]

But then again it might be more akin to the Huorns that were present during the battle of the Hornburg.

It might also be more akin to the "trees" of the Old Forest. Treebeard said that that was one of the last strongholds of the great forests. Thats what I have always thought anyways.

[Orald]

Lindolirian is pretty close on this one I think. There is more than one quote concerning the ents and entwives in Letters. Tolkien seems to think the Entwives did not survive, as read here:

I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin (vol. II p. 79 refers to it2). They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult – unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know.

'"... all the gardens of the Entwives are wasted: Men call them the Brown Lands now."'

Of course Tolkien does say a few may have survived. BUt what Sam was talking about was probably and Ent or Huorn(more likely) from the Old Forest. In LotR it does say that trees are constantly waking up(becoming entish) and falling back to sleep.

i think they survived but, Lavine where did u read that again?

[Knight of Gondor]

Here's my theory on the matter: there are very few Entwives left in Middle-Earth. But a few remain in the Old Forest near Hobbiton. They are bitter, and nearly fallen asleep. They do not have a great love for those on two legs because of the great bonfire that took place near the hedge of Hobbiton. But perhaps in the later years, Aragorn the King persuaded Tom Bombadil to awaken the Entwives and return them to Fangorn. (Say...DID Tom remain in ME after the end of the third age??)

Sound plausable? I made it up. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Manwe Sulimo]

Personally, I think that the Entwives went with Alatar, Pallando, and any other missing character out East and opened Jill's Bar & Pub.

Have a nice night, and happy Veteran's Day.

[Sharkû]

Or Hal just had an ale or pipe too much. It's not like trees moving are something totally impossible to imagine at night when looking at them.

About the first draft of the passage in question, Christopher Tolkien has to say in HoME VI; 2.XV:

"Most interesting is the reference to the Tree-men. As my father first wrote Sam's words, he said: 'But what about these what do you call 'em- giants? They do say as one nigh as big as a tower or leastways a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.' This was changed at the time of writing to: 'But what about these Tree-Men, these here - giants? They do say one nigh as big as a tower was seen,' etc. (Was this
passage (preserved in FR, p. 53) the first premonition of the Ents? But long before my father had referred to 'Tree-men' in connection with the voyages of Earendel: II.254, 261)."

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

It is possible that it was a kind of Huornwife, an Entwife that had retreated to the green confines of the Old Forest and fallen asleep again out of grief, weariness and distaste at the fact that there were no gardens around for them.

But the old man is right; it wasn't exactly a reliable witness. Rather like a UFO sighting, or a Loch Ness Monster surfacing; you believe it or you don't.

I, however, do not believe that the Entwives all perished. I think it far more likely that they simply reverted back to their treeish or huorn form, thus melding without trace back into the shadows of geography; that would certainly explain why no records exist from any party of them having been actually destroyed, while still explaining their dissapearance. Any of Sauron's expeditions find them? Apparently not. It is unlikely that they could have been captured by slavers. For a start they were too strong, if the power of the he-Ents is anything to go by. Basically, if someone had found and destroyed them, there'd be a record.

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Laivine]

It was nice hearing what you all thought of the subject about the Entwives. It's a pity we probably never will wind out exactly what happened to them, and where they went [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Balrog, it's in fellowship of the ring, one of the first chapters, can't remember exactly which one tho...

[Man-of-the-Wold]

My daughter and like to think that the reference to a tree-like giant in the Northfathering is a teaser for the existence there of the Ent-wives. Treebeard's rumination about their liking the Shire is just too much of a coincidence.

But it is a mystery Tolkien wanted to leave that way. But either the Ent-wives in small numbers are lying low in places near the Shire, or Yavanna transported them to her gardens before it is too late. To have Sauron wipe them out is too horrilbe to contemplate.

I would like to point out a few misunderstandings. First of all, I think if there were any Ents or Treeish Ents in the Old Forest, then I think Fangorn would have been suspected as much and have noted it talking with Merry & Pippen, and certainly Gandalf and Tom Bombadil would have known, and Gandalf's report to him at the end of LotR VI about the Ents would then be of much less significance. And that fact that Gandalf thought Tom would be interested at all shows that it would have been of great interest to him.

The Old Forest definitely has some Huorn types, but they are probably of the kind less common in Fangorn Forest of trees that have become more animated, or perhaps Ents that went treeish long before the Entwives even disappeared.

Also, to link the sighting in the North Moors to the Old Forest is not necessarily correct. Both places would have been quite separated by the Branduin and treeless areas.

The North Moors is really a very isolated area that might be perfect for the Entwives, as well as areas due south of the Shire, which might have only had a few "odd" villages of Dunlendish-like folk with propensities for ruffianness.

No, the North Moors are approaching Cirdan's realm as it bends west with the Ered Luin, and on the East the areas of Lake Evendim, which is likely inhabited only by the remnants of Northern Dunedain who were not ranging about, which was men's work.

Finally, the timing of the sighting is linked to the rise of evil, which the Entwives of the far Northwest would want at all cost to avoid encountering again, thus they are pushing ever more to the Western fringe.

Finally, I had thought that the war that had made the Brown Lands had been part of the Sauron's earlier wars and had significantly preceded the War of the Last Alliance.