Did Frodo complete his quest?

[Ancalime]

I just finished reading LotR for the first time and I have a nagging question: did Frodo really complete his quest to destroy the Ring? Sure, the Ring ends up in the fires of Mount Doom, but I got the impression that if it had been up to Frodo, he wouldn't have thrown it in by choice. And that's another thing-I thought that if the Ring was taken by force, the former bearer would go 'mad' or something-so why didn't Frodo? But that's an entirely different topic. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Basically, I guess my point is that in a way, Frodo failed in his mission because he claimed the Ring as his and refused to destroy it. The only reason it ended up in the fires of Mount Doom was because of Gollum's interference.

[Mhoram]

The little dude walks across all of middle-earth, pursued by foes far beyond his might, carrying the one thing the dark lord wants most, gets where he was going and has a moment of doubt, give him a break.

[Kalimac]

Tolkien goes into this a good bit in his letters; saying essentially that yes, Frodo failed, but that it was an honorable failure. He endured misery and torment that was far and away beyond what anyone else was experiencing, and only failed at the last second because it was not in the nature of the Ring to let its owner go like that. In other words, there was no way Frodo was ever going to be able to give up the Ring freely, but he tried his d*mnedest and by doing so got it to the point where Gollum could destroy it. Inadvertantly, it's true, but likely Eru/Iluvatar had a bit of hand in that (forgive the pun). There's also a comment to the effect that blaming Frodo for failing is like blaming a prisoner of war who has been tortured and brainwashed for months and years for finally succumbing to the brainwashing in the end. In other words, don't knock it till you've tried it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

So yes, he completed the quest as best as anyone could have. He got the Ring in a position to be destroyed, and if it took an Iluvatar Ex Machina to finish the job, well, Tolkien did sort of set that up, didn't he, by dropping all those hints about how it was physically impossible to let the thing go? No idea why he didn't go mad - maybe because when the Ring was unmade, the hold that it had on his mind disappeared...or something. Just an idea.

[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Midgardsormen]

Kalimac, I agree. Frodo did 'fail' insofar that he did not throw it into the fire, but NOONE would have been able to do that!!
However, Frodo got it to the brink, which I suspect nobody BUT Frodo could have managed..and then Gollum played his part...with a bit of help (?) I think the reason Frodo did not go mad was that it all happened so fast...there were only seconds between him losing the ring and it being unmade!! In addition, I think Hobbits had the ability to withstand the ring more than anyone (except maybe the Dwarves). Don't forget though, that although Frodo did not go mad, he never was able to go back to what he had once been!! The damage was done, and I believe he was in pain mentally just as much as physically after the ring was destroyed. That is why it is such a tragedy...he saved the Shire and Middle Earth, but not for himself... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
That is why I know I will need a big box of tissues when RotK comes around.........

[Niphredil Baggins]

Frodo did all he could, and Eru Iluvatar took care of the rest... How very catholic an image! Anyways, he's my hero.

[Birdland]

As for the bearer going mad if the ring was taken by force, yes, I agree with Kalimac. If the Ring had been taken from him by Gollum, who would then scamper away with it, then yep, he would have lost it.

But the Ring was destroyed at that point, soooo...no more power on the mind of the bearer. (It would have been mildly interesting to see the effect on Gollum. Also wonder: did Bilbo "feel" the Ring's demise, 'way back in Rivendell?)

Frodo felt some residual effects from traveling into the "heart of darkness", but he was spared from much worse by the dstruction of the Ring.

As for whether he "failed" or not: you try it, Mr. Arm-Chair Ring Bearer!

[Midgardsormen]

I know this is totally irrelevant, but I just went from being Newly deceased to being a 'Pile of Bones'...I'm tickled [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

ps. we are all armchair 'ringbearers'...and would probably have failed miserably somewhere in the Shire....

[Nar]

You're right, Kalimac, but there is one other thing Frodo did: holding the power of the Ring, he told Gollum he would be cast into the fire himself if he ever touched Frodo again. Was he foretelling Gollum's future? Or was he inadvertently imposing a command on Gollum, using the ring's absolute power over him? If it's the second case, Frodo is directly (if unconsciously) responsible for destroying Gollum and thus the ring. Remember, he told Gollum earlier that if he had to, he would command Gollum to jump into the fire. I think ultimately, as you've said, it was a divine push that depended on the heroic efforts of Frodo and Sam to set things up. However, I think the divine push used, and depended upon, both Frodo's insight into Fate and the power of command the ring had imposed upon him, just as much as it depended upon Gollum's shaky footing and Sauron's carelessness in not installing that safety rail. (Who has time for home improvements when you're putting your neighbors to fire and sword? At least he kept his driveways paved.)

In other words, Frodo's words to Gollum on Mount Doom were both a foretelling and a command, which Frodo only half understood at the time. However, I think Frodo's spiritual self, on the other side, (the white robed figure with the wheel of fire) fully understood and intended all of it. This side of Frodo was highly developed by then, having withstood the Ring, and was fully capable of understanding the endgame as a consequence of all the players together, as well as the pattern that their play had imposed on the board.

[Orodhromeus]

This discussion brought back up a question of mine:
When on March 25th, the last day of the War of the Ring, Sam sees the path leading to the Sammath Naur,he & Frodo lie down to rest. But at that moment something stirs them, gets them up & keeps them going to the Chasm. Was that some divine intervention? Was it meant to save the King, who was to be killed in the battle at Morannon (and end this way the Third Age)? Many things were at stake at that exact moment, and this intervention might have been critical for the outcome of the War & the future of the world (ME at least).

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes, that is certainly possible. And there are other things on Mount Doom which suggest the possibility of intervention, at least by the Valar. Do you remember the point where Sam and Frodo find a little trickle of stale water. For an instant, the shadow lifts again just a bit, and they are able to take the water and go on. Well, if you read in the Silm. you know that Ulmo is always wandering on Arda, especially near water, and man and elves (an presumably hobbits!) are dear to him. Surely, this little trickle of water that managed to make it to this ashen wasteland is more than a mere coincidence.

Now, as to the poster that said Frodo was a miserable failure for his temporary aberration.......I know we are all supposed to be polite, BUT...!! Look at it this way. Imagine that you were asked to do something which was, by all objective standards, totally and completely impossible. One aspect of this job was to take on and face all the combined evil in your world--all the killings, all the hunger and anger and misery, all the rage and pettiness, the senseless deaths, and the desire to control --all made incarnate and bound together into a single object which you alone must find a way to destroy. And let's assume that this task was of such magnitude that it was impossible not just for you but for every other human being who had ever lived (perhaps even impossible for higher creatures such as a maia). The only way you could accomplish this goal was if you were perfect and, as far as I know, none of us are perfect. Supposing further, you knew that if you did not do this thing, your entire world would be destroyed; at least the goodness in your world would be destroyed. You can go running in the other direction, which many of us would do, or you can give it a try, even if it feels totally hopeless. So you voluntarily take up this thankless task with no prospect for reward, remuneration, or even your own survival. Several times in this situation, you offer to hand over the task to individuals who, on the face of it, seem far more powerful and better equipped to deal with something so hateful and huge. Yet each of these beings states they can not take on the task, as they will surely fail and it will turn them into monsters. So on you struggle.

Fortunately for you, you do have good friends who will at least lend a hand and, in one case, a special friend who will be just as singleminded in caring for you as you are in trying to accomplish this particular task. Imagine that along the way, you are given wise words by a being whose true identity you do not know, but whom you innately love and trust This kind person tells you to show pity and mercy towards the creatures around you, since you do not have the wisdom to determine who on earth should live or die. And imagine you took his words into your heart and made them part of your actions, even as you trudge along in fear fighting off the Shadow within and without. While you are attacked by blackness and despair, you grow a little inside and begin to respond to a strange and seemingly threatening creature Gollum in the spirit of mercy and forbearance, even urging your good friend who is a bit more hasty to do the same Physically, you are the same as when you left your home, but spiritually you have grown to a new level of understanding.

Then, the awful day arrives and you are standing beside the crack of Mount Doom, the place where the Shadow grows to its most hideous and powerful self. For one instant, your heart and will, which are necessarily flawed since you are a finite creature, slip and you are devoured by the Shadow. Then, from beyond the circles of the world, blown in on wings of mercy, grace comes to pull you back from the pits of Mordor, a grace which was possible only because you had shown pity towards a hideous miserable creature who hapened to be a fallen hobbit. (By the way, unlike man, you and your neighbors do not normally kill or murder your own kind. This may also have helped to bring about a situation which could lead to your redemption.)

You and your world are saved. You do not lie to your friends about what happened at that pit. You do not try to be what you are not. You are physically hurt to the point where you will never recover, but there's a good chance that the worst injury is to your soul. You keep thinking how the Shadow claimed you at that pit in the final second, how you could have turned into something so hateful that you would rather have died than survived. You just can't get it out of your head. You see your best friend marry and have a child. Yet, having carried evil within your soul for such a long period, you have had something burned out of your heart. Indeed, you have been hurt to the point that it is doubtful you could ever sustain this type of intense loving relationship with a woman.

Your friends again try to help you. They know that, long before taking on this horrible task, you took great delight in the company of elves. Indeed, you loved to wander through the Shire at night and were long known as Elf-friend. So they arrange for you to sail away from Grey Havens with your loving uncle Bilbo, the elf Queen Galadriel, and that all important teacher in the grey and later white robes who had taught you the meaning of pity and mercy. You are going to a land of great beauty and peace and, perhaps, your teacher whom you now recognize as a maia will be able to help you learn that you must be gentle with yourself and your own shortcomings as well as with the shortcomings of others. Being a hobbit, and closely related to man, one day you will go on voluntarily to the circles beyond the world, probably after your good friend lives out his life and also takes sail to Tol Eressa.

Now, at this time, if and when you stand before the throne of judgment, what will Eru, the most high and perfect, say to you? Will he complain and say that you have failed because of the instant the Shadow crept up on you at Mordor, or will he indeed voice other words? I think the answer is clear and undeniable. Like Gandalf, I will say to the poster, have a litte compassion in your heart. For none of us is perfect and without flaw.

[Birdland]

Wow, C.7.A.! That brought tears to my eyes.

Most of us believe we make a hack of our own, average, everyday life, and have to live with the guilt of small, mean-spirited actions and missed opportunities. And if we do have divine guidance on our roads, we may close our ears to it.

Yet I believe that 'The One" would judge us far less harshly then we would ourselves.

Frodo's road was far, far harder than anything faced by the rest of us, in any age. (How many times in History has the fate of any entire world been in the hands of one person?) And how much greater would be his doubts, fear, and guilt? And yet he never gave up. Even at the very end of the quest, you might say that he did not surrender, but was conquered.

And after it was all over, he never even asked for any reward, but just peace of mind and healing. (Take that back. He didn't even ask for that! He had to be offered it.)

I feel better now. For the first time I can believe that Frodo will eventually find happiness.

[Nar]

Bravo, Child of the 7th age! In fact these books turn on a point about morality that is extrememly sophisticated. It's not the big, dramatic moment of trial at the end of the quest that saves the world, in fact the hero falters at that point, because, as you say, it's neither humanly nor hobbit-ly possible to be perfect. However, at that point, the pattern of characters and events which must (with Eru's grace) save the world have already been determined by the smaller, less dramatic, less cinematic acts of kindness, determination and wisdom that the heros have already delivered along the way. Bilbo's and Frodo's acts of mercy, Sam's steadfast love and courage, Frodo's endurance to get them all to the right place with the right configuration of characters. I think Tolkien may have been trying to convey the importance of the preceeding actions by having Frodo foretell, twice, Gollum's ultimate fate, which also destroys the ring. It almost could be a curse, delivered as it is with the power of command that the ring holds, 'if you touch me ever again you shall be cast into the fire yourself.' I don't think that is a curse, because I don't think it's delivered with malice, but I do think Frodo is very close to the creator when he says those words. And I do think the game was won by the journey and not in a big moment at the last second.

[Ancalime]

I must say I appreciate all these posts to answer my question. But I also must say in my defense that I did not mean that Frodo was a miserable failure-I greatly admire what he did and admit that I probably would not have gotten as far as he did. My question was just one of those thoughts that occurs to you, so you say "I wonder. . . " This was just meant as a thought provoking question, which it obviously has been. While I don't understand all of the references to 'the Valar' and stuff like that, I greatly enjoy reading your answers.

[Midgardsormen]

Child of the 7th Age!
What a beautiful answer!! I wish I could write that well!! I think your analysis is spot on when it comes to how Frodo felt about the whole affair, and I think it is also why this book has made such an impression on so many people!!
I am glad the question was brought up...it gave us such a wonderful piece of writing [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Thanks......

[Amarinth]

you brought tears to my eyes too, child! well done!

gandalf himself said that "the ringbearer has fulfilled his quest!" maybe the task set for frodo was what he had actually accomplished and all that was required of him by the One was to bring it within reach of the flames of doom. 99% hard work and 1% divine intervention, and as niphredil put it correctly, completely catholic (as tolkien was)! oh i totally agree with all the posts here, they are all oh so eloquent.

---------------------------------------------
every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

[Jessica Jade]

Child of 7th Age- WOW! *wipes tears from eyes with tissue* That was beautifully and profoundly written! You captured the very soul of Lord of the Rings in your writing. This is a great thread too--i'll definitely come back soon when i have time again!--

*goes to work on massive English project again [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]*

For another analysis on the effect of the quest on Frodo, read this excellent article, it will really help you understand the big picture better:
Understanding Frodos Departure

[Ancalime]

Wow. I just read that article that Jessica recommended. Great article, and it gives answers to several of my questions about this whole topic. I'm definitely gonna print that! Thanks for the referral. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I think a point brought up in the article is completely accurate, and addresses the other question: why didn't Frodo go mad when the ring was destroyed? Because although he overcome by the ring, at the time of its destruction he had willingly relinguished it. This was demonstrated by the peace of mind he had once it was out of his hands (so to speak), and the fact he didn't even try to clutch after it as it fell.

Ultimately the quest not only succeeded on an external level - the ring was destroyed - but he won at the last the inner battle. That was the peace in his eyes. So the ring had no hold on Middle Earth even in its last bearer.

That it would take him long to recover is to be expected, but that peace and his final actions indicate the final outcome.

-Maril

[Midgardsormen]

That was an absolutely fantastic article!! It really explained so much. It also made me feel better, because I had always thought Saruman's words to mean that Frodo would not live long even if he sailed West. It still makes it a very, very sad story, but it is so true so true...
I think I need a copy of it too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes, that article is very good. I had read it before, and it touches on so many important ideas. One other point--once Frodo actually got to the Blessed Lands, he would no longer have had to worry about Sarumen's so-called "prophecy", at least in terms of how long he would live. Tolkien clearly says in his Letters that, in Tol Eressa, mortals would still have to die, but they would choose the place and time of that event. (Just like Aragorn did in the appendix of LOTR.) There is no doubt in my mind that Frodo could have waited for Sam's arrival before he himself chose to go on to the circles beyond the world. I have always envisioned the two of them electing to take that step together. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Jessica Jade]

Yes, that IS an outstanding article! I'm glad you guys liked it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Another point i wanted to mention about Frodo not going mad after the ring was gone...remember what the article said- the fact that it was taken from him by force-that meant that the part of him that desired the ring was never conquered. That's why he, when he was sick for the first time, was saying "It is gone forever. All now is dark and empty." Since he did not give it up of his own accord, like Bilbo did, he cannot be completely rid of the desire of it. At least not in Middle Earth.

That's one of the reasons that LOTR is so incredibly sad. Frodo made such a sacrifice in trying to complete the impossible quest to save the world. In the end, he only lost the world he sought to save. He became educated in true fear, sheer malice and evil, and became wise by the end. (As Saruman said, "You have grown halfing..."). The tragic thing about his maturing is that he loses the carefree, uncorrupted innocence that he once possesed-he lost the qualities that made him the ONLY person who was capable of going on the quest. Perhaps there were others who could have taken on the task, but certainly no one to whom it would have meant as much. I was crying when i read the end of LOTR. I, too, will definitely need a box of tissues when ROTK hits theaters. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Rose Cotton]

You have my compliments too Child.
What some people don't realize is how hard it was for Frodo to make his way towards Mordor with the One Ring. Apparently only someone like a hobbit could have done it. Frodo was very strong to have even have gotten to Mt. Doom. If you recall people like Boromir didn't even have to touch the ring and were corupted.

I also thought of a concept. What if Frodo really didn't fail? I mean, you know Gandalf said Gollum may have a part to play before the end. Maybe he knew somthing. What if Frodo was MENT to only get to the Cracks and Gollum was MENT to finally throw the ring in. If that is true than Frodo didn't nessasaraly fail. Does that make scence?

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Rose Cotton ]

[Birdland]

That's an interesting question, Rose. Of course, if Frodo had walked to the edge of the pit and thrown the Ring in (A doubtful premise, considering how close the Ring was to the power of it's Master), then the events would have been exactly the same. The end of Sauron, the eruption of Mt. Doom, Gandalf crying "Stand, Men of the West!". Even the Eagles would have still had time to rescue Sam and Frodo.

The only thing different would have been that Gollum would still be alive. Perhaps he would have hurled himself into the fire in a vain attempt to rescue the Ring. Or would the Eagles have carried Gollum away, too?

But what of Frodo? Would he have returned to the Shire at peace with himself and the outcome of the quest? Would the ship to the Undying lands have sailed without him?

[Child of the 7th Age]

But what of Frodo? Would he have returned to the Shire at peace with himself and the outcome of the quest? Would the Ship to the Undying Lands have sailed without him?

These are interesting questions but, to me, you can't get into this without looking at another issue which hasn't been discussed or resolved. Of the two options available--living in the Shire or going to the Blessed Lands--which of these is actually the "best" choice? In other words, leaving aside the question of the hero's need for healing, in which of these places could Frodo experience the highest level of growth, learning, happiess, and spiritual development? We would, of course, have to take into consideration Frodo's personality, past history, ties to family and friends, etc.

I think most modern readers automatically assume that it was somehow "better" for Frodo to remain in the Shire. After all, this is the concrete world that we understand and feel most comfortable with. These posters and even academic critics feel the Shire represents the "normal" life, and that Frodo departed for the Blessed Lands largely out of hurt and despair. The article "Too Deeply Hurt: Understanding Frodo's Decision to Depart" rests on this assumption. And how many pieces of fanfiction have I seen which attempt to give Frodo a wife or girlfriend or sometimes a child? In most cases, the presence of these individuals ties Frodo to the Shire and delays or negates his passage to the West. The implication of all this is that, since Frodo did not remain in the Shire, he failed in some significant regard by taking only the second best path in life, a failure which is related to but even goes beyond his "inability" to voluntarily dispose of the Ring. Often, Frodo's supposed failure is contrasted with the ability of Sam, as the "true" hero to return to the Shire and have a rich family life. (By the way, I think Sam would have blanched at such a comparison.)

At the risk of sounding heretical, I do not agree. Admittedly, there was an aftermath of sorrow, guilt, and terrible hurting which had a definite impact on Frodo's decision to depart Middle-earth and go to the Blessed Lands. There is also the fact that, there are things in the Shire Frodo is reluctant to leave--his relationship with Sam as well as the beauty and the richness of the Shire itself. We can hear sadness in his words when he explains to Sam that the Shire has been saved, but it is not for him.

But I would contend that these are only two pieces of a very complicated puzzle. By focusing solely on despair as a motivating force, we are missing other important aspects of Frodo's personality and denying the validity of passage to an admittedly more spiritual and blessed land. (Tolkien 's Letters clearly state that this is the nature of these lands.)

We seem to have a great desire to "normalize" Frodo. Frodo and even Bilbo did not totally fit into the life of the Shire--they were both seen as a bit odd by their neighbors. Now we, as the readers, ironically turn around and attempt to do the same thing to the characters as the people in the Shire were doing! We want them to fit in and make the kind of choices that we would personally make. We are reluctant to consider that there may be more than one path to finding happiness in life. I think Frodo and even Bilbo do not always fit our modern preconceptions. Both had been bachelors for long years by choice. I think we moderns also have trouble viewing the Blessed Lands as a refuge and spiritual haven. It's not exactly "heaven" but it's just too far away from our concrete conceptions of a happy life. Yet what sensitive person wouldn't want to live on an island from which you can actually see the distant mountains of Aman?

So let's look at some other pieces of the puzzle which may bear on this. First, Frodo has grown and developed in a way no other character has. Frodo's response to the Scouring of the Shire is very different from that of Merry, Pippen or even Sam. Ironically, Sarumen actually does a better job than modern critics recognizing and confirming this growth as seen by his final bitter words. In a very real sense, Frodo has spiritually "outgrown" the Shire and conventional hobbit society. Having followed the path of the mystic, seen truths unseen, and experienced that which is beyond comprehension and expression, Frodo has already withdrawn from the world. The procession to Grey Havens and the saiing to the West are merely a seal upon what has already occurred in his life.

There are many indications of this. Long before Frodo ever took the Ring, he wandered the roads at night and spoke with Elves (or so it was rumored) and earned the title "Elf-friend", an important distinction in Tolkien's writings. Something in Frodo always longed for a life beyond the conventional; it just didn't happen with his wounding in the quest. And what about Frodo's dreams, including his premonition in Tom's house regarding a distant and lovely green land? Or his referral in Rivendell to wanting to hear the sounds of the Sea? Not only is this a reference to the later voyage, but we know from the Silmarillion the voice of the Sea is the final vestige of the First Music of Iluvatar. These are spiritual dimensions in Frodo's personality which can not be denied.

I would also argue that Frodo's departure was not motivated solely by despair as this essay implies. Tolkien viewed despair as one of the very worst sins because it meant the individual was setting himself up in place of Eru. Only Eru can know the future. Since this is so, man is obligated to hope rather than despair. I don't think Tolkien wanted to say that Frodo was driven to the West purely by despair--this is contrary to his whole picture of the small hero motivated not by prowess or power but by obedience.

So if it is not despair, then what are we dealing with? I don't agree with the essay's suggestion that Frodo was a victim of trauma, or what is now termed post traumatic stress disorder. Unlike most victims of trauma, Frodo freely chose the road he took, understood at least some of the dangers before he started, and, at the end of the quest, could see that goodness had been sustained in part through his actions. This is not the model most applicable to Frodo's very real suffering and guilt. I see Frodo, instead, going through the process of grieving, grieving for the very real losses in his life, for his own imperfections and for the loss of the Ring itself.

I know I am influenced by personal experience in this, having dealt with the death of a child many years ago. At the time this happened, I was rereading Tolkien as one way to hold onto my reality, and I was totally struck by the fact that the way I was acting and the way Frodo reacted after th quest were virtually identical.

Grief is an incredible roller coaster of up and downs. There is room for suffering and guilt, and for incredible spiritual growth all in the same time frame. You feel as if you were walking around in a world with no protective shell or clothing. One minute you are managing to function, and, the next, things are totally out of control. You are extremely vulnerable to the good and bad in life. Grieving is enormously hard work that makes one so tired that it is difficult to participate in everyday life in any meaningful way, so you withdraw just as Frodo did. And your whole perception of"normal reality" changes. This is why Merry and Pippin comment as they return to the Shire that "it (i.e. the quest) seems almost like a dream that has slowly faded", while Frodo's reply is totally different: "Not to me...To me it feels more like falling asleep again." Frodo will never again have the same concept of reality.

Any grief counselor will tell you, that there is virtualy no way that you can change your attitude just by wishing or hoping for it. But what you can do, they consistently advise, is to change your behavior and the attitude change will follow. So a reaching out to old friends like Gandalf, Galadriel, and Bilbo; a sailing to the West for healing--these are things that can eventually bring at least a partial resolution of grief. In fact the worst thing you can do when grieving is to sit and do nothing over an extended period of time. This is what leads to despair. So Frodo's reaching out to Elvenhome is not the trip born out of desperation which this essay suggests, but rather a posiive step to try and go forward and resolve some very personal, spiritual issues.

Finally, there is the sad reality of life that choices mean taking one path and forgoing what lies down the other. There may be lovely things lying on both roads, but you can only select one. This too is the situation facing Frodo. How can you measure or weigh Frodo's affection for Sam as opposed to his feelings for Bilbo? Whatever he does, he will gain one and lose the other. If Frodo stays with Merry and Pippin, never again will he see Galadriel and Gandalf. And, in my heart, I am quite sure these two would have kept an eye on Frodo to make certain things went well in the West. The Shire is beautiful, but so too is the Ocean. And in the Blessed Lands mortals may chose the time and place of their death, an option many of us would prefer. Given all this tangled web of emotion and conflicting desires, Frodo made the best choice he could, not the second best path in life, but the road that was meant for him. With Gandalf's help, perhaps, he learned in the Blessed Lands to forgive his own shortcomings just as he had learned to be merciful to others. And we are left behind with sorrow, since what happens in the West, unlike what happens in the Shire, is simply not accessible to us as finite creatures. We can only sit and wonder what the next page in Frodo's life might have been like. sharon, the 7th age hobbit.
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Enedhil]

I do so wish I could think of something to say here, but all I can do is nod and sigh in agreement with what has been said.

*nods*


*sighs*

[Midgardsormen]

I am going to have to reread both and have a good think about this...both are very well written!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
The last one is more positive though, and I do agree that Frodo was never like all the other Hobbits. Staying in the Shire might have been the worst thing he could do given the circumstances.

[Birdland]

C. of 7. A. - Wow!

A very thought-provoking rebuttal. I guess that most of Tolkien's readers are tender-hearted and want "the best" for him.

It's humbling that Tolkien's character is more clear-seeing and mature then me, but you're right. We shouldn't see it as an act of desperation or a banishment for Frodo, but a positive though still hard, choice.

(Sigh) Maybe we're all just missing Frodo, and saying "please don't go!"

[Ancalime]

Child of the 7th Age, I never thought of it that way. It never occurred to me that his sailing West was probably the best choice for him. Though now that I muse about it, it does fit how Tolkien portrayed his character. Thanks for food for thought! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
P.S. In regard to those fanfics, they probably only give Frodo a wife, etc., because that's what didn't happen in the books. If Tolkien had had Frodo stay in the Shire, they would probably be writing as if he had sailed West! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Jessica Jade]

I never thought of his sailing west as a Second Best thing. I too, disagree with the article about how it was an "exile or banishment." I was just sad at the end, because it was so inevitable, and sad because of his lost innocence. More later when i have time! Gotta run for now...

[Midgardsormen]

Having thought about it for a while, I believe there is some truth in both. I do believe Frodo was suffering from the trauma he went through both physically and mentally. But I also think that he grew tremendously because of all the suffering he endured, and because of the way he chose to perservere in spite of all the things he was going through. However, I also think that it was not lack of willingness to talk that led to him having to leave. I am sure that if at all possible, Sam would be a willing ear...he might not want to burden Sam, but Sam was quite astute, and if a friend's ear and sympathy was what was needed, Sam would have been there for him (after all Sam and Rosie moved in with Frodo). But I think that Sam saw that Frodo had grown beyond the Shire, and that the kind of help he needed and the kind of life he would find satisfying was no longer to be found in the Shire. So Sam did what he had to do....he let him go when the time came, even though I am sure he had an empty part in his heart/soul that never disappeared (even though he generally was happy with his life)..and I believe that is why Sam also went West after Rosie died.
Frodo did not want to leave Sam, but he needed to go. Partly to be healer, partly to be with Bilbo, but also partly because he needed more than what the Shire could offer, and a life with the Elves was a chance for him to continue to grow and find peace with what he had become.
I think Frodo was very sad at going, he knew he would miss Sam terribly and would also miss the Shire, but I think he realised that missing the Shire was a bit like missing your childhood...it was wonderful and he had lots of good memories, but he could not go back to it. I think it was only leaving Sam (and Merry and Pippin)that made him cry at the parting. The Shire had already become a different place in his mind. He pulled away from it because it was part of his past, not his future(he did not pull away because people did not treat him as a hero).
So when Sam was happily married and Elanor was born, he felt that Sam would be OK. I do not think he thought he was in the way as much as he thought that it would be OK for him to go without breaking Sam's heart.
We all have things we regret, and I am sure there were many times Frodo wished he had remained the innocent happy Hobbit he was before he knew anything about the ring. However, since we cannot unmake what has happened I do believe Frodo made the only choice he could. He knew it was time to move on. And knowing how fond he was of Bilbo, Gandalf and the Elves, I think that he did find kindred hearts that would help him learn to live with what he had been through and find peace. And I also believe that he waited for Sam, and that they had some time together before they both died. Someone posted that they had always believed that the two of them went together since they could decided their own time, and that sounds very beautiful to me.
I hope this makes sense, I am not as good at writing as some of the posters here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Jessica Jade]

Child of 7th age- thanks for your explanation on Frodo's "falling asleep again" when he returns to the SHire. I never quite understood that! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Since Frodo is by far the most dynamic character in LOTR, he is most deeply affected by everything he went through. I agree that his perception of reality will never again be the same. When he talks about the "wounds that will never really heal," I believe that that is very true-the wounds never will heal, because they have become a part of him. Instead of trying to forget about them and trying to make them go away, he knows that it's a part of him and will accept it and live with it. And that's what makes him who he is now and he knows he's better because of it. I mean, i know that the hardest days of my life have made me who i am today, and i can't feel anything but gratitude for the experiences that have given me grief in past. Everyone gets nostalgic at times, wishing things could return to the way they used to be, but i'm sure Frodo wouln't trade in who he is at the end for who he was before the Ring. He HAS reached a higher level of moral and spiritual understanding that verges on the otherworldly. I think that Frodo is a true hero and that the outcome of events in LOTR is one of the reasons why the books are so beautiful.

[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]