Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spirit...

[Fingolfin]

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...when tolkien specifically states that Bombadil was an enigma?

</p>

[The X Phial]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Because if the literal truth were what people based all of their opinions on, there would be little room for debate...and we like debate!!

-*-The X Phial-*- "Yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!"</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

My debatable proposition is that Tolkien's enigma actually has a solution...

Bombadil is a representation of Adam Unfallen. Given Tolkien's Christian world view, Bombadil's appearance and nature, that is my (unique) conclusion.

Bombadil actually existed in the Legendarium prior to much else. His placement in LOTR has always struck many as being out of place. But Tolkien kept him in, intending an enigma.

He is neither Maker(?), nor one of the Valar. He is more constrained than a Maia. He's not an Elf, Dwarf, or Hobbit.

That leaves a Man, though Men were last born and Iarwain/Bombadil is Eldest.

The only other possibility is that Bombadil is Eru. This proposition seems to be negated by comments regarding his inevitable vulnerability to Sauron in Elrond's council. But the elves could be wrong... Gandalf's comment leaves room for that.

I like the Adam Unfallen idea, personally. But I can't go to the mat for it!

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[draggonklaw]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I've been checking out articles on Good ol' Tom for some time now, and I've seen good, well-thought-out arguments for Him being just about every good creature/spirit in Middle-Earth, which reinforces to me the fact that he is indeed an enigma.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000071>draggonk law</A> at: 7/29/01 3:44:47 pm

[Fingolfin]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

In regard to Eru it seems to me that tolklien disagreed with the proposition that Bombadil was God based on his letters

</p>

[Elenhin]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

There is one problem with Bombadil being a Man: Men die, while Bombadil does not.

And yes, even &quot;unfallen&quot; Men would die. Death was a gift, not a punishment, from Iluvatar to Men.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[obloquy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I'd like to point out that it's possible that Tolkien had planned to change, or perhaps just finally disclose, the true origin of Man's mortality in his legendarium. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth states that among the Edain, some believed that originally they were immortal as the Elves, but Melkor tricked them into worshiping him and turning away from Eru. Very highly recommended reading.

</p>

[SteadfastSam]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

When I read that I came to the conclusion that Tolkien rejected that in favor of Death being a gift to man. I have HoME out of the Library right now...they think I am nuts down there... <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

"I will, Lord." said Tuor.</p>

[Elenhin]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I'd like to point out that it's possible that Tolkien had planned to change, or perhaps just finally disclose, the true origin of Man's mortality in his legendarium. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth states that among the Edain, some believed that originally they were immortal as the Elves, but Melkor tricked them into worshiping him and turning away from Eru. Very highly recommended reading.<hr></blockquote>
That is the point of the whole story: among the Edain, some thought that originally they were immortal, but they were not. It was quite clearly brought up by Finrod that that belief originated in fear of the Shadow and in envy of the Elves.

Later in his life, Tolkien gave more thought to the philosophical and theological issues in his world. Athrabeth is one of those theologically inspired works and it includes lots of Christian elements; Tolkien was a Catholic after all. For example, the fall of Men happened quite much in the same way in the Bible and in Tolkien's works: as a direct result of disobeying God and listening to the Enemy instead. And in both of those stories mortality is not a result of the fall, but an inherent quality of Men.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Here we go again....
And again.
And yet again.


<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> <img src=smile.gif ALT="">
<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


"But why?" he asked in bewilderment, looking upon Death. "Why?" he asked again. </p>

[obloquy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

When I read Athrabeth I got the impression that Tolkien was opening up a new possible history for Men; one much deeper that brought them closer akin to the Elves. Not that he was declaring it as the truth, but that he was tying in the real world religious beliefs -- which typically state that Man's mortality was a result of his sin -- as a possibility that would be either adopted or rejected as he continued to ponder his world.

Then again, it may be that he intended for Andreth's account to continue as just a legend among the Edain until the Elves were gone, and thereafter rise to full-fledged religion with many different branches. This would imply that in Tolkien's fictional world, modern-day Man's biblical beliefs would be based on a story that our ancestors cooked up because of jealousy or fear.

That's just what I got out of it. Theology aside, the conversation is very moving.

</p>

[SteadfastSam]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Yes, I agree.

"I will, Lord." said Tuor.</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I just can't conceive of Tolkien intending that human immortality lost to original sin would be a concept his world would explain away as a lie of Morgoth.

That would be a reason for him to ultimately reject the &quot;elves were mistaken&quot; line of thought.

Tying in the Fall of Man to his mythology is an interesting speculation. Are you folk saying that Tolkien considered it?

Pardon my ignorance of this piece you're talking about. Where can I find it?

It's ingenious, but possibly if Tolkien considered it, he might have rejected the connection as a prideful construct that should not have been introduced. I get the sense from his letters that he might have had such sensibilities.

Tolkien largely does not treat with the religions (so-to-speak) of his Men. The High Men believed as did the Elves. But what of their first beginnings when they woke?

There's room for the Fall in Tolkien's mythology, and a place for it. Perhaps Death could be considered a Gift, if one considers what an immortal life could be like for Fallen Man. As the cautionary tales of Greek Mythology teach, I fear that having fallen, immortality would be a curse to Men.

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[obloquy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

You can find it in Morgoth's Ring.

</p>

[hegemonmatt]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I was reading on Tolkien's biography that Tom was a doll of Christopher Tolkiens that as a child he hated. J.R.R.T and the other boys liked the doll so he started inventing stories at night for them. After the publication of the Hobbit he introduced the Adventures Of Tom Bombadil as a potential sequel. But, the publishers turned it down. So, because he liked the stories so much he decided to put Tom in the sequel anyway. This really doesn't help to see what Tom really was in the books, but I thought it was interesting.

</p>

[Elenhin]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I just can't conceive of Tolkien intending that human immortality lost to original sin would be a concept his world would explain away as a lie of Morgoth.<hr></blockquote>
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here...
Tolkien's world never had immortal Men. Their &quot;immortality&quot; is a tale apparently devised by the Edain, who fled from the Shadow, met Elves and thought that if they hadn't fallen, they'd be like the Elves.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tying in the Fall of Man to his mythology is an interesting speculation. Are you folk saying that Tolkien considered it?<hr></blockquote>
He not only considered it, it was an integral part of the history of Men. It was the reason for the westwart migration of the Edain (they were trying to escape from the Shadow).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It's ingenious, but possibly if Tolkien considered it, he might have rejected the connection as a prideful construct that should not have been introduced. I get the sense from his letters that he might have had such sensibilities.<hr></blockquote>
He tried to make his imaginary world consistent with his own world-view and as a conservative Catholic, he believed in the Fall. If Tolkien hadn't included the Fall of Men in Middle-Earth, he couldn't have thought that it was in any way related to our world.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tolkien largely does not treat with the religions (so-to-speak) of his Men. The High Men believed as did the Elves. But what of their first beginnings when they woke?<hr></blockquote>
In Morgoth's Ring Tolkien describes the Fall with some accuracy. Basically, Melkor came among Men and incited them to evil with fear and bribes. No Man avoided it, as they were all still living in Hildorien. This was the Shadow the Edain were fleeing from, but they were not wholly pure themselves: they had begun to see the Gift of Men as a punishment.

So: Men were not immortal, but Bombadil was. So, Bombadil can not be a Man.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I'll have to read the pertinent texts before I can intelligently comment.

But what I'm saying is that it seems to me that as a devout Catholic, Tolkien might have rejected the connection of the Fall, if it was made by explaining original human immortality away as a lie, to his tales as bordering on sacrilege.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ....in both of those stories mortality is not a result of the fall, but an inherent quality of Men. <hr></blockquote>

Basically, to assert that the Fall was not due to Morgoth/Satan, and was due instead to some self-corruption of the Children of Illuvatar/God, and to assert that the Fall itself had nothing to do with Death, is incorrect.

And to Fall, there must be something to Fall from. Grace and Immortality. The advent of Death comes with the Fall. Death (in Middle-earth) is the Gift of Illuvatar.

Why should Death be deemed a Gift?

If Man had fallen, and was become corrupted and more corruptible, physically and spiritually, then Death would indeed be a blessing and a gift.

Without yet reading the text, I can only say that the treatment of the Fall you seem to be interpreting is opposed to the understandings and sensibilities of a devout Catholic (as I understand such things).

So which came first, the Fall or the Gift?

If the Gift came before the Fall, then did Illuvatar give it to mitigate the predestined Fall?

Did Morgoth make use of the Gift to induce the Fall? (You cite &quot;fear and bribes.&quot; I'll have to read this thing!)

Or did the Gift come after the Fall? That makes more sense to me. I'll try to read this bit of Legendarium soon.

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[Voronwe]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I wrote a post a while back in the little-read Silmarillion Canon Forum where I proposed a theory bringing together the legends of elves and men concerning mortality, in which the Gift is given in response to the Fall. I won't explain it here; the post is at http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=8&t=000085pub12.ezboard.com/fthebar...D=85.topic</a>

Gilthalion, are you proposing that Tom Bombadil is an image of what man could have been like had he not fallen (but not actually a man himself), or that Tom is actually a real, unfallen man. The former seems to fit very well, but I can't see how the latter could be true if Tom is 'eldest'.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death
He sped from Westerland.</p>

[obloquy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Thanks, Gil, that's exactly why I believe that Andreth's tale was more than just a fabrication by the jealous Edain. I believe it was a glimpse at what Tolkien was eventually going to build into the real truth of Man's beginning.

He had already begun to question if what the Elves believed was the absolute truth, as we see in his tentative revamping of the story of the Sun and Moon. Tolkien began to make his world more believable as an actual alternate reality within our same world. Therefore, for example, even though the Elves themselves were fictional, they could not -- since they were instructed by the Gods and creators of their world -- subscribe to a notion so scientifically implausible as the Silmarillion account of the origin of the Sun and Moon.

I don't think he planned to make the Elves' beliefs into simply their own version of the legends, however, since the Elves were, as I said, taught by the Gods. I think that he was going to change what they knew to fit what he was designing. If he wanted them to be scientifically correct, would he have wanted them also to be religiously correct? Or at least not contradictory to his personal religious faith. It is possible that he would have simply made the Elves' ideas of Man's early days and the purpose of His mortality unclear or speculative on their part.

Tolkien believed that the Bible's account of the Fall of Man was a truth of our earth: the true beginning of Mankind's mortality. I think it highly likely that he intended to make it also a truth of his Middle-earth. Athrabeth is a very late piece of writing, if I'm not mistaken, and also the only mention of this &quot;legend&quot; of the Edain. Maybe he was only beginning to consider this possibility.

Of course, there is a problem in all of this. If Tolkien's Edain became the descendants of Christianity's Adam and Eve, then Melkor would become Satan, and Manwe, likely, would become Jesus. While the implication has always been there, it hasn't been religious so much as an interesting account of another culture's version of the story. Just good, beautiful fun. With the names of characters that so many people put faith in (myself included) as real entities, Tolkien would have given his world a sacrilegious air that I doubt many would have enjoyed.

I expect he saw this even more clearly than I do and thus found a dilemma in his Elves being scientifically all-knowing, but not &quot;religiously&quot;.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000090>obloquy</A> at: 8/2/01 1:34:34 pm

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Manwe would not be Jesus in such a construct. He would be more like Michael, another archangel in the Lucifer class of created being (Valar). Jesus is above (and beneath!) that.

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[obloquy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Well without going too in-depth and risking turning this into a religious debate, I'd like to clarify my post by saying that I, personally, believe Michael is Jesus. Michael being his heavenly pre-human and post-human name.

If you wish to discuss this, please spare the rest of our friends here and not post on the board, but rather email me at treinders@qwest.net.

</p>

[GandaIf The White]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I would like to hear that discussion. <img src=frown.gif ALT="">

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Hmmm. Well, I rarely shy from a personal religious discussion, but this really isn't the forum to hash out such things. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

However, Christian theology holds that Jesus and the Father are one with the Holy Spirit. Michael is a created being, under the command of Jesus, the only begotten son of God.

Suffice it to say that Tolkien would not have suffered a Manwe=Michael=Jesus interpretation, being a devout Catholic.

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

This is Elenhin. I accidentally posted with a wrong ID.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Basically, to assert that the Fall was not due to Morgoth/Satan, and was due instead to some self-corruption of the Children of Illuvatar/God, and to assert that the Fall itself had nothing to do with Death, is incorrect.<hr></blockquote>
The Fall resulted from the actions of Morgoth, but the Fall did not cause Death.

&quot;...my legendarium, especially the 'Downfall of Numenor' which lies immediately behind the Lord of the Rings, is based on my view: that men are essentially mortal and must not try to become 'immortal' in flesh.&quot;
&quot;Since 'mortality' is thus represented as a special gift of God to the Second Race of the Children (the Eruhini, the Children of the One God) and not a punishment for a Fall, you may call that 'bad theology'. So it may be, in the primary world, but it is ... a legitimate basis of legends.&quot;
Letters, no. 153 (emphasis mine)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And to Fall, there must be something to Fall from. Grace and Immortality. The advent of Death comes with the Fall. Death (in Middle-earth) is the Gift of Illuvatar.<hr></blockquote>
They fell from Grace, but not Immortality. Only the Edain said that they were once immortal, but I'd rather trust the Elvish sources instead of Mannish ones as the Elves had been teached by the Valar, who in turn had lived with Eru himself.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If Man had fallen, and was become corrupted and more corruptible, physically and spiritually, then Death would indeed be a blessing and a gift.<hr></blockquote>
If Iluvatar had intervened in the Fall, why couldn't he have unmade it instead of giving Men a &quot;gift&quot; which looks like a punishment?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So which came first, the Fall or the Gift?

If the Gift came before the Fall, then did Illuvatar give it to mitigate the predestined Fall?<hr></blockquote>
I'm sure that the Gift became before the Fall, as the Gift is mentioned in Ainulindale.

&quot;...[Iluvatar] said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Eldar and the Atani! But the Eldar shall be the fairest of earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani (which are Men) I will give a new gift.'
...[Men being the sole masters of themselves in Arda, free from the Music of Ainur which guides all others]...
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither we [Eldar] know now. ... But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the World (it is said); wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and brought evil out of good, and fear out of hope.&quot;
Morgoth's Ring, Ainulindale D (emphasis mine)

To me, this seems to imply that originally, the gift of Death was the special feature of Men, the most important feature to distinguish them from the Elves. The last sentence seems to be a reference to the Fall.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Did Morgoth make use of the Gift to induce the Fall? <hr></blockquote>
I believe that staining the Gift was the Fall (for the most part).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Or did the Gift come after the Fall? That makes more sense to me. I'll try to read this bit of Legendarium soon.<hr></blockquote>
To me, the texts don't seem to support that; Finrod reacts quite strongly when he first hears such ideas from Andreth.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000431>geetee</A> at: 8/3/01 1:07:57 pm

[obloquy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Good research, Elenhin.

&quot;...my legendarium, especially the 'Downfall of Numenor' which lies immediately behind the Lord of the Rings, is based on my view: that men are essentially mortal and must not try to become 'immortal' in flesh.&quot;
&quot;Since 'mortality' is thus represented as a special gift of God to the Second Race of the Children (the Eruhini, the Children of the One God) and not a punishment for a Fall, you may call that 'bad theology'. So it may be, in the primary world, but it is ... a legitimate basis of legends.&quot;
Letters, no. 153

This is a good quote that I hadn't seen before (I have Letters but have not read it all). As I have mentioned, though, Tolkien seems to have started caring more about whether his legends would fit into the true history of the 'primary world'.

But who am I to argue with Letters? Good work, mate!

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> you may call that 'bad theology'. So it may be, in the primary world, but it is ... a legitimate basis of legends.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

That pretty much answers it. Tolkien was not concerned with tying his work that closely to &quot;the primary world.&quot; The Fall of Tolkien's Men is not meant to correspond precisely with the Fall from Eden, though clearly comparisons exist.

Even in Christian theology, death, though it had a sting, was not a punishment for the Fall, but a consequence of the Fall. Everlasting damnation is the punishment. Death can be a blessing, too, the transition to everlasting life and the end of mortal pain and suffering. The Gift does not quite compare on all points to our own mortality. But perhaps examining the differences reveals things worth knowing.

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[Voronwe]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

My own, perhaps rather controversial position on this is that, though men were never immortal (in the sense that the elves were immortal), they nonetheless were not in the beginning doomed to short lives.

Could it be that in the beginning men were given a choice with respect to death - they had indefinite lifespans, but would all eventually (because they were at that time unfallen) lay down their lives out of choice and go to Eru. But The Fall - Man's corruption by Morgoth - would have changed all this, as Morgoth gave them the fear of Death. Thus, to save all Men from Melkor's domination, Eru would have given them the Gift of death (death without choice) so that all men would die soon and come to Eru to know the truth.

In his commentry on the Athrabeth, Tolkien refered to the Hobbit's sailing to Eressea thus:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The passing 'oversea', therefore, of Mortals after the Catastrophe - which is recorded in the Lord of the Rings - is not quite the same thing [as the passing oversea of the Elves]. It was in any case a special grace. An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen: they went to a state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind, and being healed of all hurts both of mind and body, could at last surrender themselves: die of free will, and even of desire, in estel. A thing which Aragorn achieved without any such aid.<hr></blockquote>
So, with this slightly shaky theory, the Gift would have been given in response to the Fall.

The quote cited above from letter 153 would seem to make this all unfounded speculation; however, letter 153 was written in 1954. This means it definitely pre-dates the Athrabeth, probably by about 5 years. It could be possible, then, that one of Tolkien's motives for composing the Athrabeth were his feelings about 'bad theology', wanting to offer the possibility of an alternative point of view that tied in with his own world-view a little more closely.

So I suppose it all comes down to which point of view you want to believe - the Elvish (Ainulindale), the 'Mannish' account of Athrabeth, or some combination of the two. Personally, I believe that the Elves (and Valar) never fully understood Men or their mortality, and so I prefer the account given in Athrabeth, but with some elvish elements, such as the concept of a Gift instead of a Punishment, thrown in. But that is entirely my own view, and I don't believe it's possible to be certain about this; it is something Tolkien deliberately left open-ended (is it possible to be certain about anything in Tolkien's work?!)


-Voronwë
<font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death
He sped from Westerland.</p>

[obloquy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Good thinking, Voronwe. I like your ideas.

Tolkien's incomplete work is, in a way, richer to me than his 'canon' material. It leaves some of the details up to individual fancy and taste. This personalizes the stories to each reader, and helps bring them closer to home. For instance, and I know I've mentioned it before, I like to believe that Galdor of the Council is Galdor of the Tree...it just makes Elrond's Council feel that much nobler. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Still handicapped, for I've not YET read the work in question!

...but...

It looks as if Voronwe may have reconciled the various angles.




<center> THUS PROVING IT POSSIBLE FOR BOMBADIL TO BE AN UNFALLEN MAN! <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> </center>



...of course, there is still the little matter of his being &quot;eldest.&quot;

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[Mithadan]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Posting here as a theological &quot;neutral&quot;, in my view Andreth is merely voicing the edain's rumors of their past, several generations removed, while Finrod, as a more knowledgeable elf of Aman, interprets and &quot;corrects&quot; her views by placing them in the context of the &quot;facts&quot; as he knows them. The Athrabeth was not meant to mirror the biblical fall from grace but rather to show, through the device of a philosophical debate, the vast gulf that separates man and elf both in body and mind. Thus while each race may love the other, true understanding cannot be had by each of the other's nature. For this reason, it was always difficult for elves and men to live together.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I've simply GOT to read this bit if lore!

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[Theodred21]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Me too, I've never seemed to have heard of it anywhere!

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[Elenhin]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

That's an interesting theory, Voronwe, and I understand your (and Gilthalion's) point of view better now. (But that doesn't mean I'd necessarily agree with it <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> )

But Bombadil as an unfallen man? I think that the early Numenoreans resembled unfallen men more than Bombadil did. And Treebeard, Glorfindel and Galadriel were older than any man... <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Gil, of the entire HoME series, Morgoth's Ring is probably the most interesting and provocative (and to the Canon people the most controversial). In addition to the Athrabeth, there is a section on the customs of the eldar, and a discussion of the &quot;Statute of Finwe&quot; which is essential to truly understanding the sources of the enmity between Feanor and his half-brothers. The book also focuses on the extent of Morgoth's corruption of Arda. Apparently, JRRT at some point decided to work out the reasons why his subcreated world turned out the way it did. The essays it contains were his way of working out perceived inconsistencies and incomplete or undecided storylines. Its a &quot;must read&quot; for anyone interested in the philosophy upon which JRRT based his work.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> My debatable proposition is that Tolkien's enigma actually has a solution...<hr></blockquote>
I thought an enigma was something difficult to explain, not impossible to explain.


</p>

[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I think that what is wanted for Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and the River-woman, Caradhras, Huorns, et al for that matter, is a defining recognized term; like Vala, Maia or whatever.
To partially help explain the enigma I'll state the term. It occurs only once in all of the writings that I know of. The term is not lessened because of this lack of appearance.

The term is Earthling.

The Book of Lost Tales 2 p. 263
&quot;Mermaids are not Oarni (but are earthlings, or fays? - or both?)&quot;

Fays and earthlings are not synonymous as seen in the last two words of the quote. And it sure isn't referring to the sea-creature mermaids as creatures born on the soil.

Fays are the Maiar who were the children of the gods.
There is an intermediary point were fays are spirits from outside before Maiar comes into use.

Loosely defining earthlings as nature-spirits is adequate I think for a simplistic view. Compare the term with an earlier term for Tom; Aborigine or native. For the rest of the difficult explanation, that is best seen by the secret fire sent into the heart of the world which gives life itself to the environment.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> My debatable proposition is that Tolkien's enigma actually has a sol<hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>I thought an enigma was something difficult to explain, not impossible to explain.[/quote]

Yesssss.....? (That's my point. There are many who think this &quot;enigma&quot; has no solution.)

Don't you have diapers to change? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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[obloquy]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I've run across an additional pertinent letter. Letter 212, a drafted continuation to a fan letter that was never sent, contains this:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Elves and Men were called the 'children of God', because they were, so to speak, a private addition to the Design, by the Creator, and one in which the Valar had no part. (Their 'themes' were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose.) The Valar knew that they would appear, and the great ones knew when and how (though not precisely), but they knew little of their nature, and their foresight derived from their pre-knowledge of the Design, was imperfect or failed in the matter of the deeds of the Children. The uncorrupted Valar, therefore, yearned for the Children before they came and loved them afterwards, as creatures 'other' than themselves, independent of them and their artistry, 'children' as being weaker and more ignorant than the Valar, but of equal lineage (deriving being direct from the One); even though under their authority as rulers of Arda. The corrupted, as was Melkor/Morgoth and his followers (of whom Sauron was one of the chief) saw in them the ideal material for subjects and slaves, to whom they could become masters and 'gods', envying the Children, and secretly hating them, in proportion as they became rebels against the One (and Manwë his Lieutenant in Eä).

In this mythical ‘prehistory’ immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was part of the given nature of the Elves; beyond the End nothing was revealed. Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Ilúvatar (God). But it must be remembered that mythicallythese tales are Elf-centred,[*1] not anthropocentric, and Men only appear in them, at what must be a point long after their Coming. This is therefore an ‘Elvish’ view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against such beliefs as the Christian ‘death’ is not part of human nature, but a punishment for sin (rebellion), a result of the ‘Fall’. It should be regarded as an Elvish perception of what death – not being tied to the ‘circles of the world’ – should now become for Men, however it arose. A divine ‘punishment’ is also a divine ‘gift’, if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make ‘punishments’ (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained: a ‘mortal’ Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one. To attempt by device or ‘magic’ to recover longevity is thus a supreme folly and wickedness of ‘mortals’. Longevity or counterfeit ‘immortality’ (true immortality is beyond Eä) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum and the great to a Ringwraith.

In the Elvish legends there is record of a strange case of an Elf (Míriel mother of Fëanor) that tried to die, which had disastrous results, leading to the ‘Fall’ of the High-elves. The Elves were not subject to disease, but they could be ‘slain’: that is their bodies could be destroyed, or mutilated so as to be unfit to sustain life. But this did not lead naturally to ‘death’: they were rehabilitated and reborn and eventually recovered memory of all their past: they remained ‘identical’. But Míriel wished to abandon being, and refused rebirth.[*2]

I suppose a difference between this Myth and what may be perhaps called Christian mythology is this. In the latter the Fall of Man is subsequent to and a consequence (though not a necessary consequence) of the ‘Fall of the Angels’: a rebellion of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the ‘World’ in its nature: evil was brought in from outside, by Satan. In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable. Trees may ‘go bad’ as in the Old Forest; Elves may turn into Orcs, and if this required the special perversive malice of Morgoth, still Elves themselves could do evil deeds. Even the ‘good’ Valar as inhabiting the World could at least err; as the Great Valar did in their dealings with the Elves; or as the lesser of their kind (as the Istari or wizards) could in various ways become self-seeking. Aulë, for instance, one of the Great, in a sense ‘fell’; for he so desired to see the Children, that he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator. Being the greatest of all craftsmen he tried to make children according to his imperfect knowledge of their kind. When he had made thirteen,[*3] God spoke to him in anger, but not without pity: for Aulë had done this thing not out of evil desire to have slaves and subjects of his own, but out of impatient love, desiring children to talk to and teach, sharing with them the praise of Ilúvatar and his great love of the materials of which the world is made.

The One rebuked Aulë, saying that he had tried to usurp the Creator’s power; but he could not give independent life to his makjngs. He had only one life, his own derived from the One, and could at most only distribute it. ‘Behold’ said the One: ‘these creatures of thine have only thy will and thy movement. Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.’

Then Aulë in grief and repentance humbled himself and asked for pardon. And he said: ‘I will destroy these images of my presumption, and wait upon thy will.’ And he took a great hammer, raising it to smite the eldest of his images; but it flinched and cowered from him. And as he withheld his stroke, astonished, he heard the laughter of Ilúvatar.

‘Do you wonder at this?’ he said. ‘Behold! thy creatures now live, free from thy will! For I have seen thy humility, and taken pity upon your impatience. Thy making I have taken up into my design.’

This is the Elvish legend of the making of the Dwarves; but the Elves report that Ilúvatar said thus also: ‘Nonetheless I will not suffer my design to be forestalled: thy children shall not awake before mine own.’ And he commanded Aulë to lay the fathers of the Dwarves severally in deep places, each with his mate, save Dúrin the eldest who had none. There they should sleep long, until Ilúvatar bade them awake. Nonetheless there has been for the most part little love between the Dwarves and the children of Ilúvatar. And of the fate that Ilúvatar has set upon the children of Aulë beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it.

Footnotes
*1 - In narrative, as soon as the matter becomes 'storial' and not mythical, being in fact human literature, the centre of interest must shift to Men (and their relations with Elves or other creatures). We cannot write stories about Elves, whom we do not know inwardly; and if we try we simply turn Elves into men.
*2 - [A note apparently added later:] It was also the Elvish (and uncorrupted Númenórean) view that a 'good' Man would or should die voluntarily by surrender with trust before being compelled (as did Aragorn). This may have been the nature of unfallen Man; though compulsion would not threaten him: he would desire and ask to be allowed to 'go on' to a higher state. [Footnote continues into discussion of Mary as unfallen.]
*3 - One, the eldest, alone, and six more with six mates.
<hr></blockquote>

I apologize for the length of the post, but I couldn't bear to cut it up more than I did (there were a few paragraphs before the point I chose to begin my citation).

I don't really have any points to push with this addition, I just thought it was a very interesting letter and should not be left out of this (rather off-topic) discussion.

-obloquy



</p>

[jallanite]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I believe the Tolkien's remarks about the mermaids that puzzled CT are actually easily explained.

In other notes Eärendel is befriended as a boy by either Oarni, by mermaids, or by Oarni identified with memaids. So why does Tolkien suddenly seem to break the identity? The answer is easy enough if you look at Tolkien's full note:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'The fiord of the Mermaid: enchantment of his sailors. Mermaids are not Oarni (but are earthlings, or fays? -- or both).'<hr></blockquote>Tolkien is here distinguishing only the hostile Mermaid in this incident and other &quot;Mermaids&quot; of similar type, from the Oarni who are Eärendel's friends. He means Mermaids of this sort are not Oarni&quot;.

Though &quot;earthlings&quot; and &quot;fays&quot; may be here only varieties of what Tolkien would later call Maiar, I don't see any problem with imagining spirits who were not of the Ainur dwelling in Arda, created perhaps when Eä was made, or sent later (as are all spirits of Mortals, Dwarves, and Elves, and perhaps of Ents. Tom Bombadil might be one such, as might Ungoliant, whom Tolkien almost identifies as a Maia, but then doesn't quite.

But by making Tom an &quot;enigma&quot; when he could have easily identified him as the first Maia to become permanently embodied in Middle-earth or some such, Tolkien was expressing his own desire to leave Tom a mystery. The Maia explanation probably just didn't seem right to him.

</p>

[Eldar14]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Voronwe, personally, that's the way I view the history of man and their immortality, where originally the were long lived and chose of their own will to die, but after they feared death, Eru gave them short life as a gift. (which explains why aragorn, who was, in my opinion, as close to an unfallen human as existed in the third age, was so long lived.)

Personally, I don't think there is any chance of Bombadil being a human, no matter if humans are mortal/immortal. He did things that even the Maiar could not do, which means there is very little chance of him being human. He wore the ring without being affected at all, which Gandalf could not do, and Gandalf is himself more powerful than man.

</p>