The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-07-2006, 10:16 PM   #201
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

Quote:
I never said that Feanor was mentally weak. I said that he had a mental weakness which should be taken into account when assessing his relative power.
Ah, I understand what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out. But my response to that would be that every single being besides Eru had some sort of mental weakness from Manwe down to the common orc. Feanor's only showed through the way it did because he was specifically marked and attacked by the most powerful being in all of Arda (and a couple of unfortunate events and a blunder or two by the Valar didn't help).
Quote:
But you concerted defence of him does illustrate another problem inherent in trying to come up with this kind of a list. It will always, as far as certain characters are concerned, be highly objective. Lmp recognises this and so retains for himself the final word. But there will always be disagreement over the placing of favourite characters.
Quite right.

On the subject of "favourite characters", I readily admit that I absolutely love Feanor, but at the same time I think my approach to him is far more factual than emotional. Indeed, it was ignoring emotion and taking into account facts that made me a huge fan of Feanor in the first place.

When one reads the Silmarillion, it is natural to come away from it not liking Feanor. He is not treated with as much sympathy as he could've been- he is not treated like a hero. Feanor's actions are never remotely excused, and the Valar are never said to have made a mistake in their dealings with him. If I had just read the book, I probably would think Feanor was an out of control, egotistical, evil jerk, and that the Valar were practically perfect.

But I didn't just read. I considered the facts apart from the way in which they were presented. I thought, "Hmm, Feanor couldn't possibly hope to remain unaffected by Melkor if Melkor was trying to influence him. After all, Melkor obviously was capable of fooling Manwe. Given that, it appears Feanor is being banished from his home for not doing the impossible. The primary objectives after discovering Melkor's evil should have been to catch Melkor and to undo his evil words. But instead, the first thing the Valar do is give Feanor a punishment that reinforces Melkor's lies. Wow. That is, without a doubt, the worst possible decision they could've made."

So, as I hope you can see, my pro-Feanor stance grew from my examination of events, not from the way the events were presented. Surely that counts for something, and puts my opinions in a better light than some others who fanatically support one character or another.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2006, 06:21 AM   #202
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,468
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Pipe

Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom
When one reads the Silmarillion, it is natural to come away from it not liking Feanor.
Well, I could not honestly say that I "like" Feanor. He did too may heartless things, and unnecessarily so, to garner my affection. The burning of the ships, forcing the remaining Noldor to brave the Hellcaraxe, for example. That said, I nevertheless find his story fascinating and he undoubtedly contributes hugely to the tale. For that, I can admire and respect him as a character.

Yes, others had various weaknesses that affect their "power". But Feanor's mental weakness was hugely detrimental to his own well-being, that of his entire line and most of those who came into contact with him.

Quote:
So, as I hope you can see, my pro-Feanor stance grew from my examination of events, not from the way the events were presented.
I can understand that. But I still think that, in your admirable defence of him, you err on the side of ignoring his negative qualities.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 08:08 PM   #203
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,072
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Regarding the Translator Conceit, play with it if you like, or not. It matters not to me. I think there may be more to it than I have so far cared to think. However, it can also render itself to such efforts as this thread no better than a confounding befuddlement bearing no useful results.

As to Fëanor, my further reading in the Sil has pointed up something rather critical to understanding him and his fellow Noldor:
Quote:
(p. 104: But the dawn is brief and the day full often belies its promise; and now the time drew on to the great wars of the powers of the North, when Noldor and Sindar and Men strove against the hosts of Morgoth Bauglir. To this end the cunning lies of Morgoth that he sowed of old, and sowed ever anew among his foes, and the curse that came of the slaying at Alqualondë, and the oath of Fëanor, were ever at work.
There are three things at work here, then, dooming the Noldor: (1) the lies of Morgoth (2) the oath of Fëanor (empowered by Eru since his name is invoked in it) (3) the curse that came of the slaying at Alqualondë (at the bidding of Manwë). Now, this curse affected the offspring of Fingolfin as much as it did the sons of Fëanor; whereas the children of Finarfin (Finrod & Galadriel for example held themselves aloof from it. Only Fëanor and his sons swore the oath. Morgoth's lies affected many: all and sundry. So the oath is the most specific and most powerful being from Eru; the curse less powerful and less specific, being from Manwë; the lies are the most far flung, and only as powerful as those who heard them allowed them to be, which reflects back upon the oath and curse. One thing more should be said. Being Eldar does not remove choice. It sets a doom, but within that doom are many choices, for which every Eldar is accountable. There is therefore a limit to the "determinism" some would read into the doom of the Eldar.

Sauc'sy point as to Fëanor is an interesting one. Tolkien goes to great trouble to establish the psychological (as it were) roots of Fëanor's character, what with his mother leaving the body after giving birth, leaving him a sort of orphan and then Finwë's resulting favoritism which caused its own problems. Loss of a parent is a rather obvious treatment in the Legendarium, repeated over and over again, with varying results depending upon the character. That Fëanor's character is so rash and, well, fiery, seems to be a powerful intrinsic aspect, complicated further by his orphanhood. A more self-absorbed character most of us have never met. So is Saucy right? And if so, what do we make of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom
lmp, since this is your thread why don't you tell me, would a good description of what you are looking for be sheer amount of knowledge, strength of will, number of skills, strength of skills, ability to impact mind and matter, and ability in battle?
All of it and then some probably. Who had the ability to affect Middle Earth the most, and who did so?

This has been a fascinating discussion on many levels, but I find myself most intrigued by the current (halted) discussion between the phantom and the saucepan man in regard to Fëanor. Very well argued on both sides.
Quote:
(p66) For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife.
Quote:
(p69)High Princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions.
Then the lies of Morgoth about Fingolfin's supposed ambitions reach Fëanor's ears - - - and he chooses to believe them. Why? Because the seeds of pride and jealousy had already been sown in his heart. By Morgoth? No.
Quote:
Fëanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered that the light within them was not his own.
It's not a mental weakness that is the primary failure in Fëanor. Rather, it's the "will to hording" that Tolkien frequently wrote about, which comes of loving a thing more than it deserves. So misplaced love is Fëanor's greatest character flaw, and as Tolkien indicated, this was because he loved things of his own making too much. I suddenly see a lot of what Tolkien feared in himself, in Fëanor.
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 08:25 PM   #204
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,752
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmp
So is Saucy right? And if so, what do we make of it?
I think he is, and I think what we make of it goes back to earlier observations that the list has little merit without some context.

If the context is simply that two given characters go into a cage and fight to the death, then you can sort out the beginnings of a list rather easily (I expect that's mostly what drives the current rankings, with a few notable exceptions). A theme of Tolkien's is that evil choices lead to self-defeat, whereas self-sacrificing choices lead to victory. Consequently, while evil or deeply flawed characters bring more ability and/or will to project raw power onto the field, in practice they are not as "powerful" as they might seem since their attitudes towards power and its use and the choices they make ultimately leave them vulnerable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmp
I suddenly see a lot of what Tolkien feared in himself, in Fëanor.
Nice insight!
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 01:19 PM   #205
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Underhill
A theme of Tolkien's is that '. Consequently, while evil or deeply flawed characters bring more ability and/or will to project raw power onto the field, in practice they are not as "powerful" as they might seem since their attitudes towards power and its use and the choices they make ultimately leave them vulnerable.
I think it could be argued that this is an instance of Tolkien imposing his own beliefs, or hopes, on his creation. Certainly in M-e its true that 'evil choices lead to self-defeat, whereas self-sacrificing choices lead to victory', but is that true in the primary world? Certainly we would all wish it to be the case, but how many of us can say it reflects our everyday experience?

If Feanor was Tolkien's own alter-ego, it seems he was punishing himself for his 'sins' in Feanor's fate. Maybe Tolkien created the world as he felt it 'ought' to be in his Middle-earth. I suppose it could be argued that if the primary world had been as Tolkien felt it should be he wouldn't have bothered to create a 'secondary' one. So, was M-e really a 'reflection' of our world, an attempt to enable us to see things 'as we were meant to see them' (OFS) or was it his attempt to get us to see the world as he felt it ought to be, but plainly was not (in his view)? In short, was M-e truly 'escapist' in the pejorative sense?

Yet this begs a further question - if the 'primary' world is not (as our experience suggests) a place where goodness & compassion ultimately win out, why do we respond so strongly to a world that is so 'out of touch' with our experience? Where does our innate sense that the way things work in M-e is 'right' & the way things seem to be in the 'real' world is wrong or 'faulty' come from?
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 01:52 PM   #206
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Certainly in M-e its true that 'evil choices lead to self-defeat, whereas self-sacrificing choices lead to victory', but is that true in the primary world? Certainly we would all wish it to be the case, but how many of us can say it reflects our everyday experience?
Quote:
Yet this begs a further question - if the 'primary' world is not (as our experience suggests) a place where goodness & compassion ultimately win out, why do we respond so strongly to a world that is so 'out of touch' with our experience? Where does our innate sense that the way things work in M-e is 'right' & the way things seem to be in the 'real' world is wrong or 'faulty' come from?
Interesting questions. However, I don't think that Tolkien would have seen Middle-earth as fundamentally different from the 'primary' world in this regard. It is an over-simplification to say that in Middle-earth 'evil choices lead to self-defeat, whereas self-sacrificing choices lead to victory'. Yes, this is true to an extent - but it does not mitigate the Long Defeat. Self-sacrifice does not always lead to victory, and indeed it seems that the forces of good are doomed to lose in the end - at least within the world.

But insofar as the victory that arises from self-sacrifice is the 'eucatastrophe' of the story, I think Tolkien would say that it does accurately represent the real world. Tolkien thought that the eucatastrophe was a true 'glimpse of the Evangelium'.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 02:22 PM   #207
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
I think it could be argued that this is an instance of Tolkien imposing his own beliefs, or hopes, on his creation.
The Feanor story does have something to do with subcreation. I also read it as a tale of the inevitablitly of disaster when children abide with the holy. But it's also about decline, and pride. Feanor isnt all powerfull. He is flawed, like all of us. The power that comes from him is the work he crafted, which was greater than him or any of the other children - well nigh unto the Vala themselves. This sets him apart for me, regardless of physical attributes.

Quote:
So, was M-e really a 'reflection' of our world, an attempt to enable us to see things 'as we were meant to see them' (OFS) or was it his attempt to get us to see the world as he felt it ought to be, but plainly was not (in his view)? In short, was M-e truly 'escapist' in the pejorative sense?
I dont think that was the intent of the author. It is IMO a reverse reflection, to stay with your analogy. But being of, and about Fairy is beyond conscious human history. Its Europe, not of an earlier time, rather than an earlier imagination (paraphrasing). You can define or describe a reflection, but you cant pick it up, weigh it, or break it apart.
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 02:33 PM   #208
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
However, I don't think that Tolkien would have seen Middle-earth as fundamentally different from the 'primary' world in this regard. It is an over-simplification to say that in Middle-earth 'evil choices lead to self-defeat, whereas self-sacrificing choices lead to victory'. Yes, this is true to an extent - but it does not mitigate the Long Defeat. Self-sacrifice does not always lead to victory, and indeed it seems that the forces of good are doomed to lose in the end - at least within the world.
Yet this is a central theme in LotR - it is Frodo's act of mercy to Gollum (as Tolkien himself stated) which ultimately leads to the destruction of the Ring. Yet is this actually logical, or is it Tolkien's fantasy of how acts of mercy ought to work out in real life. Of course, within the story it 'makes sense', & seems a 'logical' conclusion, but is that merely because we have been 'taken in' by the story? If we were told by someone that a similar series of events had happened in real life would we be inclined to believe them? In other words, based on our real life experiences, would we believe such a thing could happen, or would we instead think 'Er, I'd like to believe that, but life isn't like that.'

I suppose what I'm asking is, while we can accept Eucatastrophes in stories, do they actually happen in real life - or do we merely wish that they would happen? Perhaps we even convince ourselves sometimes that they do happen. But what's interesting is our desire for them - where does that come from is what I'm asking. Do stories shape our desire, make us want things that aren't true, or do they awaken a sense of something else, a sense that the stories are telling us the way things really were meant to be? Are they attempts to awaken 'memories' of 'Arda Unmarred', do they in effect 'alienate' us from our fallen state so that we will seek our unfallen state?

And, yes, I know this takes the thread way off-topic.....

EDIT. My thinking here is inspired by an essay I read recently 'the LotR as Literature' by Burton Raffel in the collection Tolkien & the Critics. Raffel mentions a story by Nathaniel West 'A Cooll Million'. In one episode

Quote:
'the naive hero defends a young lady from a bully, beats the bully fair & square, holds out his hand to the bully afterwards, & is promply hauled into oblivion (the young lady, who faints at this sight, is promptly raped by the bully)'
Now what's interesting is that in reading this precis I felt the 'wrongness' of this incident far more than if I'd read of that in a newspaper as an actual event in the real world. In the latter case I'd probably have thought 'Horrible, but typical - that's the kind of society we live in!' but in a 'secondary world' its almost as if I expect 'better' from the subcreator - I want to be told how things ought to be, not how they are. Its as if West (& maybe I'm being unfair on him, as I haven't read the actual story) has 'let me down' by simply telling me how things are in the world I live in.

Yet Tolkien's Legendarium is full of such horrors as well as moral victories - The Sil in particular - but in a sense they don't move us as much, feel as 'True' as the Eucatastrophes'. They merely show us the world as we know it, as opposed to the way we feel it should be...

Last edited by davem; 04-11-2006 at 03:06 PM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 03:32 PM   #209
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
internal / external

Quote:
while we can accept Eucatastrophes in stories, do they actually happen in real life - or do we merely wish that they would happen?
Quote:
Its as if West (& maybe I'm being unfair on him, as I haven't read the actual story) has 'let me down' by simply telling me how things are in the world I live in.
There is no "happily ever after" in that example that you gave. There was none for Frodo either. In terms of justice, that is. The rest of ME - yes. But, isnt the whole point of eucatastrophes the fact that it is an internal process? Is not whole point of self sacrifice in the deed itself, regardless of outcome? If I experience eucatastrophe standing right next to you, would you notice it?

Quote:
They merely show us the world as we know it, as opposed to the way we feel it should be...
I wouldnt want it any other way. What I feel "should be" may not be how you feel.

Last edited by drigel; 04-12-2006 at 07:19 AM.
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 03:43 PM   #210
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drigel
There is no "happily ever after" in that example that you gave. There was none for Frodo either. In terms of justice, that is. The rest of ME - yes. But, isnt the whole point of eucatastrophes the fact that it is an internal process? Is not whole point of self sacrifice in the deed itself, regardless of outcome? If I experience eucatastrophe standing right next to you, would you notice it?


I wouldnt want it any other way. What I feel should be may not be how you feel.
So are Eucatastrophes merely subjective? Tolkien says the greatest Eucatastrophe was the Resurrection of Jesus. So, would you say the Eucatastrophic experience is merely how we feel about an event rather than the event itself being, by its nature, Eucatastrophic? The problem I have with that is that for an event to produce a Eucatastrophic experience in an individual it must be in response to a specific kind of event (a sudden unexpected turn of events, never to be looked for to recur', etc) - a 'miraculous grace'. If you experienced a feeling of Eucatastrophe at a particular event, & I didn't wouldn't that mean I'd missed something - ie that I wasn't responding to an objective occurrence which I should respond to in a similar way?
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 09:00 PM   #211
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,072
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
There was a potential Eucatastrophe in LotR, in the situation between Frodo, Sam, and Gollum. Though it could have been, it was not, and this was because of choice. Sméagol was on the verge of repentance when Sam woke up. What if Sam had remained asleep and Frodo woken instead? What if Sam had not reacted out of his biases, but had seen Sméagol at a spiritual crossroads, assuming that such a thing was even possible for Sam? And what if Sméagol had not withered and been subsumed into Gollum's hatred by Sam's meanness? Tolkien, it is known, did find it necessary to think out an entire plot development based on this possible turning point, so we know that it was pivotal. But Sam did react meanly. Frodo did remain asleep. Sméagol was subsumed into Gollum. Thus we had not a Eucatastrophe, but a tragedy. This tragedy became however part and parcel of a yet greater eucatastrophe, however devastating and tragic it was for Sméagol.

The example you offered, davem, was not tragedy but irony, and a most black one at that, in that it was so unremitting. There was no grace in it. We know that the world can be that ugly, and that potential is, I think, what you (and I) react so strongly against (I had the same experience watching the recent film, Crash which I never saw to the end I was so revolted).

But we also believe that primary life has the potential for grace, for eucatastrophe. (I see that I am at this point merely repeating what Tolkien said so well in On Fairy Stories.)

My point in bringing up this potential eucatastrophe in LotR is that the best stories do reflect real life as we know it, with all of its best hopes and worst fears.

I do, of course, have my own answers to the 'ultimate' questions you raise, but I feel it would be better for you to arrive at answers you need rather than for me to supply those that I need.
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 09:58 PM   #212
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
So are Eucatastrophes merely subjective? Tolkien says the greatest Eucatastrophe was the Resurrection of Jesus. So, would you say the Eucatastrophic experience is merely how we feel about an event rather than the event itself being, by its nature, Eucatastrophic?
Its all relative - varying degrees. The Resurrection is the ultimate, for Christians anyways, but for a Hindu... eh - not so exciting. I do commend you for the use of the word eucatastrophic, hussah!

There are other experiences for me that have occured in a space and a time that is of a more immediate nature to my personal reality, therefore I can only say for myself that it is a subjective internal process. Or lets say 2 people get in to a car accident, and both have near death experiences. They might not relate to it in the same way. One might say "I was so lucky", and thats it. The other would say "I was granted grace for some reason. I have been on the wrong path, now I am set on the right path", etc. For a society - the group as a body would have to have something in common for the group as a body to experience eucatastrophe - a common faith, a common enemy that has been overcome, a UFO landing in London, etc.

There are ideals revolving around the works that dont ever change, but ideals mean nothing without the individual. The primary world "as it should have been" for me would only apply to Valinor. In the sub-creation of ME, you would have to force justice onto a world where the genie is already out of the bottle, as it were.

I guess the point I was driving at was that it's not my nature to expect the external world to fit itself in my consciousness, regardless of my state of grace. I feel that I would be delusional or hallucinating otherwise. IMO, there were many acts of self-sacrifice in the 1st (or any) age that went unrewarded, ignored, that had no positive results for the individual. Those acts were just as significant and important (if only for the self-sacrificer's grace, or spiritual state) as the ones that had results, and were recorded in song. Conversely, how many goodly creatures died in the War of Wrath, when Beleriand was broken? Yet this is an event that I would say would be considered Eucatastrophic, at least to the players in the drama.

Quote:
If you experienced a feeling of Eucatastrophe at a particular event, & I didn't wouldn't that mean I'd missed something - ie that I wasn't responding to an objective occurrence which I should respond to in a similar way?
Or, on the other hand, if you, along with a group of others, watched me commit an act of sacrifice, and didnt get rewarded for the act, would you think I was a loser? I wouldn't, no matter how many people thought I was.

Last edited by drigel; 04-11-2006 at 10:10 PM. Reason: pimf
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 10:36 PM   #213
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,752
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Certainly in M-e its true that 'evil choices lead to self-defeat, whereas self-sacrificing choices lead to victory', but is that true in the primary world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
It is an over-simplification to say that in Middle-earth 'evil choices lead to self-defeat, whereas self-sacrificing choices lead to victory'. Yes, this is true to an extent - but it does not mitigate the Long Defeat.
There is a certain tension between faith in an ultimate spiritual victory, and the pessimism of "The Long Defeat". I think it's a very relatable tension, and one that makes the spiritual elements of LotR all the more believable. The promise of eternal bliss may ring hollow while we're down here suffering in the muck.

But within a spiritual context, one can argue (I daresay Tolkien might argue) that self-sacrifice always leads to (spiritual) victory, even if within the bounds of time and the material world it yields an apparent defeat. There is the grace of the act itself -- of serving others; then there are the (often unknowable) consequences of the act, however small, within the grand scheme of things.

These ideas sounded more coherent when they were in my head. Still, pressing on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by drigel
There is no "happily ever after" in that example that you gave. There was none for Frodo either.
Except that Frodo's journey didn't end with his voyage West; in a way, it was only beginning.
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 07:54 PM   #214
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,072
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Upon further reading in the Sil it becomes clear that Finarfin's heirs also fell under the curse.

Quote:
(129)Then the sons of Finarfin departed from Menegroth with heavy hearts, perceiving how the words of Mandos would ever be made true, and that none of the Noldor that followed after Fëanor could escape the shadow that lay upon his house.
Grim words.

So all the Noldor were under Mandos' curse that was sanctioned by Manwë, as a result of the Slaying of Alqualondë.

Only the sons of Fëanor were bound by the oath of the Silmarils. However, Fingolfin's house, by his oath to follow Fëanor wheresoever he leads, does play into this oath. Complicated.

Now here's a question: How did the lies of Morgoth get spread, with him holed up in Thangorodrim during that centuries long siege?

Updated List
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 12:35 AM   #215
narfforc
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
narfforc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,307
narfforc has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send re-enforcements were going to advance.................

Morgoth had many spies, and once the seeds were sown, it only took time for the half-truths and lies to grow, a bit like Chinese whispers. One of the reasons Hurin was shunned was because no-one trusted that Morgoth released him for any good reason than to do harm.
__________________
[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.
narfforc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 01:20 PM   #216
Yuukale Narmo
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Leaf

I'm sorry, but i just couldn't read all of the replies to the topic, my primary intent here is just defend the position on 3 elves, in my opinion, the mightiest of all elves.
Fëanor, Galadriel, Fingolfin.
I really think they should be placed above the witch king (in the original and first post of the list)
Why ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drigel
The Feanor story does have something to do with subcreation. I also read it as a tale of the inevitablitly of disaster when children abide with the holy. But it's also about decline, and pride. Feanor isnt all powerfull. He is flawed, like all of us. The power that comes from him is the work he crafted, which was greater than him or any of the other children - well nigh unto the Vala themselves. This sets him apart for me, regardless of physical attributes.

Considering Fingolfin in a 1X1 contest with morgoth, he proved to be quite a worthy enemy (ok, morgoth had already shed much of his power in the land but still was supreme ruler)

Now consider Fëanor, he was the greates of all elves, because he just had more than any other. His mother just gave more of her Fëa to feed him, than did any other mom, so this fact, thus the dagor dagorath episode makes me believe he was the mightiest in body of all elves and men (i would also include "mind" but by doing this we would need to compare him with Felagund).

And Galadriel, where does she stands ? It is said that she could perfectly match any elf (phisically speaking) in the games held at Valinor , and if my memory does not fail me, she could match quite well Fëanor's phisical prowess too...

So, if Fëanor is stronger than Fingolfin and Galadriel is not far from Fëanor's power....
Thus, elves are fearless, so any of these could easily overcome the Witch-King....

I'll stop by here, let's see wat you think about my theories.

Namárië.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 08:54 PM   #217
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,072
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Yuukale Narmo, thanks for joining the discussion. I'm in agreement with you. Please click on the link, "Updated List", below in this post for the most recent edition of the list.

EDIT: Well, I could kick myself. I forgot to put the link up. Here goes....

Updated List

Last edited by littlemanpoet; 05-04-2006 at 04:34 PM.
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2006, 01:30 PM   #218
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
Pipe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Underhill
There is a certain tension between faith in an ultimate spiritual victory, and the pessimism of "The Long Defeat". I think it's a very relatable tension, and one that makes the spiritual elements of LotR all the more believable. .
Sam's white star above the Ephel Duath comes to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Underhill
But within a spiritual context, one can argue (I daresay Tolkien might argue) that self-sacrifice always leads to (spiritual) victory, even if within the bounds of time and the material world it yields an apparent defeat. .
Well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Underhill
There is the grace of the act itself -- of serving others; then there are the (often unknowable) consequences of the act, however small, within the grand scheme of things. .
Also well said. ..."I go now to my fathers, in whose mighty company I shall not now be ashamed."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Underhill
Except that Frodo's journey didn't end with his journey West; in a way, it was only beginning.
Aye. The grey rain curtain rolling back to reveal white shores and a far green country, with the wind carrying sweet song and fragrance, is heartbreaking due to our temporary loss... not Frodo's.



Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
Now here's a question: How did the lies of Morgoth get spread, with him holed up in Thangorodrim during that centuries long siege?
Lies echo in the mind of the listener long after the liar has departed.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.
mark12_30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:54 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.