Couldn't Sauron resurface in the future?

[TheLostPilgrim]

Sauron at the time of the Lord of the Rings is lacking the One Ring. It exists, but he does not possess it, and he needs to possess it to have full strength. A good portion of his own power and spirit resides in the Ring itself and was sealed into it when it was create. However, even without possessing the One, he is still a powerful force. Powerful enough to give the West quite a bit of trouble.

What I don't understand is...When the Ring is destroyed, it marks the final and total defeat of Sauron. Why? Yes, he's without the Ring, which had a great portion of his power--But he was without that power, the source of much of his strength, after being defeated by the Last Alliance, and still without the Ring, he posed a great threat to Middle Earth.

While the Ring contains a good chunk of his power, surely Sauron himself still has a great deal of native power of his own remaining in him? Enough to command armies and wreck havoc without possession of the Ring.

While the destruction of the Ring greatly diminished his spirit and potential power (compared to his original self), surely the remaining power would still relatively strong and potent---especially say as compared to the strength of Men? Surely Sauron's spirit, even at it's weakest and with the Ring destroyed, would still, by his nature as a Maiar, be stronger than the spirit of a Man?

Of course, he would not have those things which were created or maintained with the power of the Ring--such as Baradur or the hold over the Nazgul--but couldn't there native power left in him, at least enough to be if not a grave threat, then at least a nuisance to the race of Men, especially as the Elves faded from Middle Earth?

Couldn't his spirit perhaps take "possession" of a weak human and use that vessel to attain power in Later Ages? Perhaps the evil men of modern history, such as Hitler, had the spirit of Sauron within them.

Anyone care to comment on this?

[Inziladun]

As long as the One Ring endured, Sauron's power that had been contained within it remained intact. Thus Sauron, though substantially weaker than he would have been with the Ring on his finger (in that case the power being fully "his" and at his immediate disposal), continued his existence in a corporal form. The power was still there, he just didn't have access to it.

Though still technically "existing" after the One's destruction, Sauron was reduced to literally a "spirit that gnaws itself in the shadows", to quote Gandalf. He was permanently bereft of such a large portion of his native power that he was incapable of any meaningful action affecting the physical world.

Tolkien said in one of the Letters that if, say Gandalf, had claimed the Ring and had been able to keep it from Sauron in a one-on-one contest, the effect on Sauron would have been identical to that in the event of the Ring's demise: it and the power it contained was lost to him forever.
The permanence of the power, or the lack thereof, is I think, the key here.

[Pervinca Took]

I read that recently, too. I find it hard to understand how that could destroy Sauron, though - would Gandalf sort of channel the Ring's power into himself and thus a huge part of Sauron's power would be sucked away from him and engulfed? I know these are Tolkien's own words; I'm just trying to work out for myself how it would work.

It was terribly risky for Sauron to make the One Ring, especially at a time when there was far more resistence to him, and far more powerful Elves still in Middle-earth. Could an Elf such as Glorfindel do what Tolkien said Gandalf would have done? I guess not, because an Elf is not a Maia. But a Maia could still be sent to Middle-earth - indeed, five of them were.

The fact that Sauron made open war on his enemies was also very risky - the West already had the Ring. Gandalf could have challenged him at the Morannon, instead of sending the Ring to be destroyed. Did Sauron simply believe, in his arrogance, that he would win in any such combat?

[Alfirin]

Another question that occurs to me, did the ring being destroyed actually destroy Sauron or did it simply weaken him to the point where he could be destroyed. In other words, the moment the ring was destroyed, did Saurons hroa simutaneously go kaput or did he just lose so much power that he was no longer able to effectively take care of himself, and "died" in the collapse of Barad Dur. Here's sort of the situation I was wondering about. Image someone (say Gandalf) had claimed the ring sucessfully, but for some reason never actually confronted and/or destroyed Sauron (yes I know Tolkein said that the confrontation was basically inevitable for anyone who claimed the ring, they'd either bring it to Sauron or destroy Sauron and take his place, but just imagine for a second). What would Sauron be left as? The same invisible formless ghost he became upon destruction? or would he retain his hroa, becoming basically a mortal man for all intents and purposes (that's the best descriptor I can thing of for a Sauron who still had a physical body, but was stripped permantly of the power embodied in the ring, a being similar Sauruman post staff break).

[blantyr]

As I understand it, if one has the gift of man one leaves the world upon death. If one hasn't such a gift, one is stuck in Middle Earth. Sauron is stuck. He isn't destroyable as such.

As I understand it, if one hasn't the gift of man, if one has a certain very large amount of power, one can manifest one's self in a body, and live physically again. Sauron managed this once, but hadn't enough power after the destruction of the ring to do so again.

As I understand it, if one hasn't the gift of man, nor enough power to remanifest one's self, the Lords of the West might choose to remanifest you. This might happen quickly, or might involve some time in the halls of Mandos.

Alternately, as with Saruman and Sauron, one might turn into a column of smoke that gets blown away by a west wind. One's soul is not destroyed. The gift of man isn't there, so one cannot leave. One is left chewing on one's malice.

[Elmo]

"In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void."
Valaquenta

Sounds like he was kicked out of the Circles of the World like Morgy so actually wasn't still in Middle Earth.

[Glorthelion]

Hmmm...I wonder in the event that Melkor breaks through the doors of night, if he would restore power to Sauron. he he he

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by blantyr

As I understand it, if one hasn't the gift of man, if one has a certain very large amount of power, one can manifest one's self in a body, and live physically again. Sauron managed this once, but hadn't enough power after the destruction of the ring to do so again.

Sauron actually managed it TWICE while the Ring existed. His physical body was killed twice:

Once in the destruction of Númenor (SA 3319).

And then again 22 years later (SA 3341) when he was killed in battle by Elendil and Gil-galad. After this second death, Isildur took the Ring from him, and so without the Ring Sauron took far longer to reembody himself.

As for the original poster's question about whether Sauron's spirit might have affected some latter day human, like Hitler, well maybe.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Once in the destruction of Númenor (SA 3319).And then again 22 years later (SA 3341) when he was killed in battle by Elendil and Gil-galad.

Just to clarify, the War of the Last Alliance ended in 3441, not 3341. Sauron actually took over a century (after the fall of Numenor) to prepare for his assault on the new dunedain kingdoms.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

What I don't understand is...When the Ring is destroyed, it marks the final and total defeat of Sauron. Why? Yes, he's without the Ring, which had a great portion of his power--But he was without that power, the source of much of his strength, after being defeated by the Last Alliance, and still without the Ring, he posed a great threat to Middle Earth.

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I read that recently, too. I find it hard to understand how that could destroy Sauron, though - would Gandalf sort of channel the Ring's power into himself and thus a huge part of Sauron's power would be sucked away from him and engulfed? I know these are Tolkien's own words; I'm just trying to work out for myself how it would work.

I think it's easier to picture it as an analogy. Imagine a rich man who deposits most of his savings in a bank. Now, with his money locked up somewhere, does he have it in his hands for his use? No. It's not with him. But is he still rich? Certainly. It's still his money. But if someone hacks into his account and steals all the money, or maybe the bank goes bankrupt, or whatever, and suddenly all his savings disappear - he's not a rich man anymore whichever way you look at it. He basically goes permanently bankrupt.

In a pretty similar way Sauron has lots of power, and places most of it in his power-bank - the Ring. When the Ring is lost to him it's like he's not in a bank right now, so he can't access his account to take the money from it - but he still owns it. But when the Ring is destroyed, Sauron is power-bankrupt.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think it's easier to picture it as an analogy. Imagine a rich man who deposits most of his savings in a bank. Now, with his money locked up somewhere, does he have it in his hands for his use? No. It's not with him. But is he still rich? Certainly. It's still his money. But if someone hacks into his account and steals all the money, or maybe the bank goes bankrupt, or whatever, and suddenly all his savings disappear - he's not a rich man anymore whichever way you look at it. He basically goes permanently bankrupt.

In a pretty similar way Sauron has lots of power, and places most of it in his power-bank - the Ring. When the Ring is lost to him it's like he's not in a bank right now, so he can't access his account to take the money from it - but he still owns it. But when the Ring is destroyed, Sauron is power-bankrupt.

Not bad. Not too terribly absurd. Still, if your bank and all it's records had been washed to sea in hurricane Sandy, and if you were in California living quite happily without any access to your bank, would you suddenly turn into a column of smoke to get blown away by a west wind?

The Ring is a plot device needed to tell a good yarn. The magic is vaguely consistent, within acceptable bounds for suspension of disbelief if one doesn't look too closely. I have seldom been impressed attempts to look very closely.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Not bad. Not too terribly absurd. Still, if your bank and all it's records had been washed to sea in hurricane Sandy, and if you were in California living quite happily without any access to your bank, would you suddenly turn into a column of smoke to get blown away by a west wind?

You might, if the knowledge that in one day you went from a rich man to someone who has no money lead you to self-immolation...

It would be a horribly wicked plot twist if, some 100 years later, the people of ME find out that Sauron was not actually just destroyed by those heroes, but he committed suicide...


Jokes aside, though, you're right. Suspension of disbelief is key.