Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Nogrod]

Good to see Glirdan back again. Not voting him now.

From the last list of mine I could vote

for pure annoyance of not playing:
Mänwe

for evading any commitment to any view:
Sally
Elron

for the above + overdoing the banter:
Lottie

But the problem is they are more or less all the "usual suspects" and as such they are shots in the dark.

I'd like to vote for Shasta as he gives me bad vibes right now, but I'd hate to vote from grounds that are at least in part arising from feeling of receiving an evil intended vote.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Meh... but that's a lot of supposing and might-happen nonsense... Perhaps there is no correct answer on the Cobblers (dead or alive)? Just sit back and hope that they are Night-killed rather than lynched, and do whatever possible to contribute to that.

Exactly.

So basically, this plan is bunk. I'm tempted to go with you on the seer-death-with-a-plan idea. The biggest problem is, here's how I would address it as a wolf:

Day time WolFea: I'm the seer!
Night time WolFea: Hey other wolves, if you Night kill me, the village won't find out I'm not actually the Seer, because they won't be told my role!

Dead Threaders vote for people WolFea tells them to.

At some point the real seer counter-reveals but has absolutely no way to prove themselves.

I mean, there's no good reason for the good guys to believe anybody who says they're the seer, so setting up a plan where we trust somebody who says they're the seer? Is full of danger.

[Anguirel]

Anyone who is killed by wolves isn't a wolf. But they can be a cobbler (I still think that term is ridiculous - maybe just 'turncoat', traitor, etc? It's basically the newer and less dramatic Cursed Villager, come to think of it). And the spirits in Mandos can't even check them if they are cobblers. So the Dead do have it hard, harder than I initially assumed.

This makes phantom's point about Cobbler survival, and Fea's riposte to it, the most interesting points I've taken in so far. I was utterly convinced by the good intentions of both statements, but the latter one, that wolves can pretend to be cobblers, does trump. Pessimism in ascendant. Ho-hum. Still, I don't want to see either of these theorisers hang yet. Fea's game indeed is quite a formative comparison which I remember with frankly frustrating accuracy.

Someone used the word "dangerous" in an odd way, about innocent and helpful dead, but I've lost track of who (I'd guess Aganzir) and actually I think such semantics can be overplayed

Basically, this version of Tol-in-Gaurhoth makes or breaks the analyst player (as opposed to the "crazed intuition/half-baked arrogance" player, me). The rules are so knottily intense that they still have us thinking about them, not each other. At this stage, the game is overwhelmingly more fascinating than the players.

I notice by the by that some people seem to think Thinlomien is more than usualy, almost suspiciously, incompetent - I don't agree with this at all; this is a totally novel sort of challenge and I feel utterly incompetent myself. It's very hard to judge on 'past form' in this one... (and that's one of my favourite techniques)

I'm a bit suspicious of Nogrod for sticking up for me at one point. Sorry about that. We Feanorians can be dead ungrateful (though I hope yet to be grateful dead).

[Aganzir]

Sorry about being quiet, I've been IMing with a beautiful lady I'm possibly going to paint.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Okay, so, I believe I've heard multiple people talk about baddies messing things up in Dead-Thread. Is it a good idea then to avoid lynching suspected Cobblers? Because really Cobblers are the only Baddies that can do damage over time in Dead-Thread, because identities of Wolves can be checked by the dead. If we do our best to keep Cobblers alive, Goodies will own Dead-Land with total authority.

Hmm. That depends on your point of view. The cobblers are going to cause trouble - both here and in Mandos. But it's going to be a serious problem only if they mess up some information delivery plan. So yes to lynching cobblers, no to plans they can easily affect.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

As for the quiet players... there is often a reluctance to lynch the quiet players in the first instance they often get the benefit of the doubt which a wolf might take advantage of.

Not recently - people have been quite happy about lynching players who post little substance, I think. (But I admit I haven't been very active lately.)

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Leijonien kanssa.

That's as good an excuse for not posting as Greenie had.

I can't believe that my first post agrees with Noggin...

Bunny fangs!

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

The fact that you defend phantom so stoutly here, combined with that you were already one I was suspicious of (for much the same reason)... given the game setup, I wouldn't put it past baddies to feel safer about linking themselves.

I agree with Shasta about Nog being suspicious but I don't see anything particularly bad about his defense of phantom. I think they just think alike on certain things regardless of their roles... And phantom looks almost alright now (although the sooner he's dead the happier I am).

Originally Posted by Nogrod

In a game where we need to read everything from what others say without a chance to check afterwards for sure, I do think lynching the quieter ones - those not giving up anything - is a better choice. Later on when we have some real feelings / arguments of those who meddle with the game a lot more, or have a chance there will be some info coming from Mandos, then we should start lynching the more in the middle of the things -players.

No.
The louder players leave more trails. They are also more likely to contribute more in Mandos which is good, especially if they're innocent. I strongly object to deaths that don't reveal us anything (in the sense that you can't find connections even later when we possibly have information from Mandos or the seer). The longer someone lives, the more she posts.
I know Nog likes lynching quiet players. So do I. But in this game I think it's different.

++NOGROD

Bedtime!

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Green

the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me

I noticed this section during a quick skim, but in fact I came away from it thinking non-Cobbler, as she seemed to praise the Cobblers a bit much. If you read the way she says it, doesn't it make you ask who would set a standard like that for themselves?

What it made me wonder- is she possibly a Wolf and wishing for us to think too much about Cobblers, particularly if she planned at any point to gain innocence by throwing a suspected Cobbler under the bus, knowing full and well that the Cobbler would serve her purposes just as well in the Dead-Thread, in which case her high opinion of what the Cobblers are capable of could be read as, "You guys better be coming up some good stuff to help us!!" At least that's the gut-reaction reading I took from her post.

So, while my reasoning is entirely different, I am at this point okay with lynching Lommy today. In fact the idea enters my mind of Greenie wolf-on-wolf voting Lommy today under the premise "She's a Cobbler!" and if it's proven that Lommy is in fact guilty, but of Wolvery instead, Greenie may look doubly good (willing to lynch baddie but wrong about Wolvery, since surely a Wolf would have the sense to accuse a fellow Wolf based upon Wolvery to buy herself some credit, if you follow me).

[Nogrod]

Okay.

++ Shasta

He didn't for a moment consider what I (and tp) were saying, but decided that it was a way to stage a suspicion: two people having similar opinions and wishing people to listen to them. Also I think he very cleverly decided to vote me because I wouldn't be here to talk back near the DL unlike tp.

What's more, I'm speaking for the good of the village in mind - and everyone reading back what I've said and thinking about it sees it is true. But if Shasta is a wolf, he knows I'm speaking against their interest. And if tp is an innocent too (a view I'm slightly leaning over right now even if I can't be totally positive about it), then any trust forming between the innocents would be bad for the wolves. So those people should be done away with asap.


EDIT: X'd with tp & Agan & Ang & Fea...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

some people seem to think Thinlomien is more than usualy, almost suspiciously, incompetent

Ahahaha!

(What did we learn from this? Say something nasty about Lommy and Agan laughs.)

Okie dokie going now.

[Anguirel]

we learn from this that poor old Uncle Anguirel is too tired to spell "usually" properly.

...but I intend to try and camp out till the deadline yet...

[the phantom]

I have to leave very soon, but I'll be back and posting during the final hour. Based purely upon gut- I'm not completely happy with lynching Shasta or Nog, I know nothing at all about Nessa and Manwe, and Lommy is a decent choice based upon my previous post. That's all I have time for now.

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Nog

But the problem is they are more or less all the "usual suspects" and as such they are shots in the dark.

D'awwww, thanks, Nog. I'm one of the usual suspects! I'm flattered.

I hate that I'm still in my usual initial "Well, these people are acting kind of oddly, but there's more oddness than usual this game, and anybody could be anybody at this point" phase. I really hope that starts passing more quickly...

Right. I shall probably have to go soon (though I'm still going to put off voting for a little while longer), so I'm going to go re-read.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, I thought I wasn't going to be here, but rehearsal is going slow and I have my laptop, so why not.

And what do I come back to find?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay.

++ Shasta

He didn't for a moment consider what I (and tp) were saying, but decided that it was a way to stage a suspicion: two people having similar opinions and wishing people to listen to them. Also I think he very cleverly decided to vote me because I wouldn't be here to talk back near the DL unlike tp.

I am quite literally shocked. Every single point in this paragraph - and yes, I do very literally mean every single one - is assumption/blatant generalization/"this is the way it is, and no, I don't have to back it up, just go with it, and here, let me add in some analysis of Shasta as a person just for emphasis", and not only that, strikes me as just plain mean. I don't know what I did to expect such treatment from Nogrod of all people, but really, I'm incredibly annoyed right now.

I didn't for a moment consider? Absolute bullcrap. I obviously considered what you were saying - otherwise I WOULDN'T HAVE SAID ANYTHING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I "decided" that, did I? And I suppose you're in my head, that you can make such firm and flawless notions of what I did and did not do?

And the last point is the worst - that I voted you because you wouldn't be back to defend yourself. First off it's hurtful that you'd even think I'd stoop so low. Secondly, what? I wasn't planning to be back myself - that's why I voted as early as I did.



It's far too early in the game to be as overly malicious as that post was, and if I'm overreacting then I apologize, but...

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Excuse me?!

Sorry, still reading, but that caught my eye and now I'm going to have to challenge Manwe to a duel.

Just playing my part

I'll pick the venue, you pick the weapons..

Now for the quiet ones-

satansaloser2005- A post, banter.Good.
Fea - two posts, general.Good.
A Little Green- three posts before voting, general, casts a number of doubts. backing, moderate or poor.
elronds_daughter- two posts, general. Was innocent last game after similar start.Good.
Glirdan- two posts, banter, third post general. Good. Much like Manwe.
Wilwa- no post, quiet as last game and turned out to be a wolf.
Nessa- two posts, general. turned out to be a wolf in the last game.veering, moderate or poor.

I'm going to vote, as I do;

++A Little Green

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

It's far too early in the game to be as overly malicious as that post was, and if I'm overreacting then I apologize, but...

I think you might be..he's fishing isn't he?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Shasta - is fully of shenanigans, but I'm not all together concerned that they're wolftastic ones. Reserve the right to change my mind. Not voting for him.

Nogrod - is observant and talkative. I approve of both things. Not voting for him, unless I decide he'd be super useful once Dead.

Aganzir - is pretty on top of seeing pros and cons in different courses of action. Worth keeping around because she offers prompt and honest critique of ideas.

Legate - seems coherent. Didn't set off any alarm bells and posts with enough content to keep me docile in terms of his life span.

Lommy - Ditto what I said about Legate.
the phantom - is offering ideas. Knowing him, the ideas are both solid suggestions and veiled tests. Also knowing him, we won't find out who passes or fails the tests. However, still knowing him, he's useful.

Boromir88 - amuses me. Speaks sense. Atta boy.

Mithalwen - Sensible. Concise. I love concision.

Anguirel - makes astute observations about the dynamics between players and rules. I'd like to keep him around purely because he rocks the logic.

Glirdan - ...
A Little Green - ...
elronds_daughter - ...
Mänwe - ...
Nerwen - ...
Loslote - ...
Wilwa - ...
Nessa - ...
Blind Guardian - ...
satansaloser2005 - ...
So obviously if I haven't formed an opinion, you're up for my vote. My general plan is to Deadify somebody that is active enough that they'll be useful Dead (as opposed to Deadifying somebody that will do nothing of value in the Dead Thread). So don't be surprised if I vote for somebody that seems active and rational: it's not that I want to kill awesome good guys, it's that I want to ascertain that the purpose of the Dead Thread isn't mucked up via us staffing its walls with mutes.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Shasta

I am quite literally shocked. Every single point in this paragraph - and yes, I do very literally mean every single one - is assumption/blatant generalization/"this is the way it is, and no, I don't have to back it up, just go with it, and here, let me add in some analysis of Shasta as a person just for emphasis", and not only that, strikes me as just plain mean. I don't know what I did to expect such treatment from Nogrod of all people, but really, I'm incredibly annoyed right now.

I didn't for a moment consider? Absolute bullcrap. I obviously considered what you were saying - otherwise I WOULDN'T HAVE SAID ANYTHING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I "decided" that, did I? And I suppose you're in my head, that you can make such firm and flawless notions of what I did and did not do?

And the last point is the worst - that I voted you because you wouldn't be back to defend yourself. First off it's hurtful that you'd even think I'd stoop so low. Secondly, what? I wasn't planning to be back myself - that's why I voted as early as I did.

X'ed with Fea



It's far too early in the game to be as overly malicious as that post was, and if I'm overreacting then I apologize, but...

This entire post alone takes Shasta off my voting list completely. Yes, it is an over-reaction, yet I have seen him (I apologize for the meta-reasoning, but this is my way of making it up to him ) do this once before and I believed him to be evil.......

Instead we lynched the Seer on Day 1. Shasta was that Seer. He made the same over-defensiveness then as he is now, and a Wolf/Cobbler Shasta would not be so blatant to draw THAT much bad attention to himself. He is definitely safe from my vote.

I'm actually not entirely understanding where all this supsicion of Lommy is coming from. I'm going to have to go back and read just her posts to understand some stuf.

As it stands, I'm still leery about Agan....he still seems way to Cobblery to me. If we can't get a Wolf, I would much rather get rid of a Cobbler and limit the Wolves out-voting capabilities at the end.

Xed with Fea

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

So obviously if I haven't formed an opinion, you're up for my vote. My general plan is to Deadify somebody that is active enough that they'll be useful Dead (as opposed to Deadifying somebody that will do nothing of value in the Dead Thread).

So you're just as prepared to vote those for whom you have made an opinion? As they fit your 'deadify' plan the best..

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Instead we lynched the Seer on Day 1. Shasta was that Seer. He made the same over-defensiveness then as he is now, and a Wolf/Cobbler Shasta would not be so blatant to draw THAT much bad attention to himself. He is definitely safe from my vote.

Too obvious for a double bluff?

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Fea

So don't be surprised if I vote for somebody that seems active and rational: it's not that I want to kill awesome good guys, it's that I want to ascertain that the purpose of the Dead Thread isn't mucked up via us staffing its walls with mutes.

This is the way my brain is working too... The train of thought goes: "Okay, we want to kill the baddies. But we also don't want to make malicious ghosts. Crap."

This tension between Nogrod and Shasta worries me somewhat. Hrmmm.

[elronds_daughter]

Right. Must go. Voting.

++Nogrod

Partly because Shasta's overreaction makes him seem innocent. And if Nog's not guilty, then he'll be a helpful ghost.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

satansaloser2005 - ...
So obviously if I haven't formed an opinion, you're up for my vote. My general plan is to Deadify somebody that is active enough that they'll be useful Dead (as opposed to Deadifying somebody that will do nothing of value in the Dead Thread). So don't be surprised if I vote for somebody that seems active and rational: it's not that I want to kill awesome good guys, it's that I want to ascertain that the purpose of the Dead Thread isn't mucked up via us staffing its walls with mutes.

This is some of the best sense I've heard toDay. Not particularly because it's sally she contemplates lynching, but because the concept itself seems pretty good.

But, with that said, my Day 1 vote will probably be random, and based on knee-jerk reaction, in a wonderfully useless fashion.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

We Feanorians can be dead ungrateful (though I hope yet to be grateful dead).

I'd like to be grateful dead too.

[Nogrod]

As time here passes away, I need to sleep and can't fight back against this bad idea spreading. So just read what I've said and make wise choises.

Agan - even if I think her innocent - on the contrary makes hasty choices. It is a debatable point whether we should lynch the "quiet" or "under-radar types" here or not. I do think they are easier to find out about in Mandos than here as it will be obvious some of the more active ones will end up there anyway. But as I said, the merits are relative.

Heh, sorry Elron...


Oh, I see Shasta is back... Well, an interesting reaction.

After you have cooled down, let us hear why what I have been talking about, since my very first post, is bad or evil or suspicious? Start from #40 - it started the whole discussion and you can see I'm not parrotting others but actually making the points from the get-go - that I think was your stated reason to vote me but it just betrays you haven't even read the thread, right? Or that you act like you haven't?

If you're innocent (which your reaction doesn't quite support), then you should blame yourself if things go wrong for you or me.

Okay, Good night now. I still have a five hours to sleep if I go right now.


EDIT: X'd again with a host...

[Anguirel]

As in, they're Hamlet and Laertes, Balin and Balan, Turin and Beleg (hasn't happened yet, but there is acute foresight amid the kin of Feanor, whatevs)? Yeah, I agree, for now. While it is irksome that they're becoming the lead candidates, the price of caution is standing by to watch the stoning of the more conspicuous...

Manwe is surprisingly acerbic though that may be a stylistic thing. elronds_daughter - I'd be more comfortable calling her Celebrian, but then again maybe Elrond (as yet unborn) had another sprog - makes a very sensible point about the compromises entailed in our lynching. Basically, within our category of suspects, we should go for the most vocal one. There's more to gain from a punt on the phantoms of this world than a pure shot in the dark; though killing a vocal player is admittedly disastrous if they're...shoe fetishists

addendum: crossed 'Celebrian', Nessa, Nogrod

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Oh, I see Shasta is back... Well, an interesting reaction.

After you have cooled down, let us hear why what I have been talking about, since my very first post, is bad or evil or suspicious? Start from #40 - it started the whole discussion and you can see I'm not parrotting others but actually making the points from the get-go - that I think was your stated reason to vote me but it just betrays you haven't even read the thread, right? Or that you act like you haven't?

If you're innocent (which your reaction doesn't quite support), then you should blame yourself if things go wrong for you or me.

Okay, Good night now. I still have a five hours to sleep if I go right now.


EDIT: X'd again with a host...

{My bold}

I think this may have just been more fuel for the fire...

[Nerwen]

Hello, again. I don't have time to post at length, or read the thread properly– however firstly can I suggest we try and avoid a mass-slaughter toDay? I think that's going to be more likely to help the wolves than the village. I mean, the dead are still dead, right? They don't count in the tally.

Originally Posted by the phantom

What it made me wonder- is she possibly a Wolf and wishing for us to think too much about Cobblers, particularly if she planned at any point to gain innocence by throwing a suspected Cobbler under the bus, knowing full and well that the Cobbler would serve her purposes just as well in the Dead-Thread, in which case her high opinion of what the Cobblers are capable of could be read as, "You guys better be coming up some good stuff to help us!!" At least that's the gut-reaction reading I took from her post.

So, while my reasoning is entirely different, I am at this point okay with lynching Lommy today. In fact the idea enters my mind of Greenie wolf-on-wolf voting Lommy today under the premise "She's a Cobbler!" and if it's proven that Lommy is in fact guilty, but of Wolvery instead, Greenie may look doubly good (willing to lynch baddie but wrong about Wolvery, since surely a Wolf would have the sense to accuse a fellow Wolf based upon Wolvery to buy herself some credit, if you follow me).

Mmmn. Cobbler-talk tends to be popular among wolves even in a more normal game– makes them seem useful, distracts the village from hunting wolves, etc– and would be more so in this one. On the other hand, the set-up in this game also means that cobblers are much more likely to give themselves away at this point.) So I'm not sure.

EDIT:X'd with a host.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

So you're just as prepared to vote those for whom you have made an opinion? As they fit your 'deadify' plan the best..

No. If I have an opinion, I already think you're too valuable to die on the first day. My vote will come from the people in the 'eh, I don't care' group, but will probably come from more active members of that sampling.

Originally Posted by Nessa

This is some of the best sense I've heard toDay. Not particularly because it's sally she contemplates lynching, but because the concept itself seems pretty good.

Sally is on the list, but just for clarification, the list is composed of anybody with that uncertain dot dot dot after their name.

Originally Posted by Ang

elronds_daughter - I'd be more comfortable calling her Celebrian

But Elrond's daughter was... Arwen...



Okay. Dead tired, so if I fall asleep before voting, blame the fact that I've had a pretty insane past few days and I'm snuggled in bed watching season two of Buffy. I'm *trying* to be awake for deadline, but I make no promises.

[Anguirel]

Ouch Fea, re Elrond and his brats. What can I say. It's been a while...

[Glirdan]

I'm going to do a quick analysis of Lommy's post.....all three of them

POST #62

Her first post of the day.

First bit is mainly banter (and I'm going to assume this may include the bit about lynching phantom today as well.....no matter how much I would like to see it happen :P )

*raises an eyebrow* I think their priority would still be the seer, thank you very much Mr Cobbler.

Actually, this statement alone seem pretty cobblerish to me. Noggins raised a very valuable point on the Wolves (a very obvious one however, which makes me raise my eyebrow in his general direction). My question is why is this Cobblerish at all? The only thing that is remotely suspicious is the fact that he is stating the obvious, and that isn't that suspicious, people do it all the time.....well, to be a little more accurate, I do it all the time.

Quotes Nerwen and raises a valuable point about the Hunter.

What seems to be a little bit more banter with [b]Boro[b/]

Says shes paranoid about the Cobblers and that there are more people messing with our heads and wants them gone, but still states that the Wolves are our main priority.

A little more banter with Mith and Sally and about Legate

Quite optimistic, given that the regular scenario is that the wolves spot the seer early on and the ranger lives until the end game, which is kind of unlike what we want this time. In this game, we really got to use our wits (even) more than usual. A random vote from anyone toDay and you have a host of hostile penguins at your door. Just warning.

This whole quote (which is in response to something of Boro's) has me quite befuddled. What are you trying to say?? As for the random vote, whether we like it or not, Day 1 votes are always random and Day 2 will always bring "a host of hostile penguins at your door" as you so put it. We don't have anything substantial to go on for our votes on Day 1 unless someone outwardly yells "Look here!! I'm a Wolf!". The only difference with this game is that it is going to be like that for pretty much the whole game, unless we have a Gifted who died come back and help inform us. And even then, there always stands the possibility that a Cobbler or Wolf is manipulating the outcome.

Her last comment for that post was in response to Ang saying that she believes him to be wolfish.

POST #64

She makes a suspicion list.....after possibly a page and a half of posts, one page of which was pure banter.....The list itself seeming like it's pretty much all banter........Hmmmmm.....

She does say however, and I quote:

Normally I don't suspect anyone, this time I suspect almost everyone.

Just a theory.....perhaps because of the type of game things of flipped for her??

POST #76

After three posts (all of which, may I add were pretty well close together [ie. 62, 64, 76]), she votes Manwe, who had one post at the time and was basic banter.





Okay, I think I kind of see everyone's point on her now. She seems a little, wish-washy, for lack of a better word. And her reasoning for her vote for Manwe could just as easily be applied to about five other players, myself included. It seems like it's a throw away vote. But if that's the case, why not just say it's a throw away vote??


EDIT: X'ed since my last

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

So yeah, I don't know if I should go all Nilp on y'all and find out what all the Dead Thread's good for, or if I should actually try to stay alive.

Yeah, normally I try to make some pretense at fighting the inevitable lynch, but this time I was just going to try for "First Dead Head". And so, naturally, this turns out to be the one game that I don't come back to a lovely little clump of votes.

Originally Posted by Mänwe

I think this may have just been more fuel for the fire...

I don't like the way he seems to be sitting back and laughing at the 'spat' between Shasta and Nog, but what's worse is he then pokes and prods them in a seeming attempt to escalate the fight more. By pointing out the one line in Nog's post that could be taken the wrong way, Mänwe's making things worse, not A) ignoring it so we can move on and try to hunt wolves or B) trying to resolve the fight so we can move on and try to hunt wolves.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Sorry, but I've gotta get in my vote before DL! (Even if I'll probably miss everything )

++Legate

Because he voted me. And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.

Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?

[Boromir88]

I find myself having trouble concentrating anything after being referred to as Bobbler. Nice one Greenie.

I actually feel quite good about Lommy, even with that completely erratic cobbler hinting thing that I supposedly did...? I think Lommy's just trying to recover from smashing up her bororadar from the last few games that she is forcing herself into seeing everything I do as some twisted evil plot, as a form of revenge. Even if I think she had a nice working bororadar. It just needed updating, like a 2.0 version, or Bororadar Premium Edition.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++NERWEN

Active enough to be useful in the next life, not so active I'll miss her desperately in this one.

Voting now because I'm not going to be awake for DL (especially since B88 informed me that DL is an hour after I'd thought it was). Literally can't keep my eyes open. Nighty night, all.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

Sorry, but I've gotta get in my vote before DL! (Even if I'll probably miss everything )

++Legate

Because he voted me. And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.

Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?

Yes– except you're at the least the second person to vote on the grounds that the target would be a "useful ghost". I don't like that reasoning at all.

EDIT:X'd with Fea. DItto that one.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes– except you're at the least the second person to vote on the grounds that the target would be a "useful ghost". I don't like that reasoning at all.

I agree with that. The idea of a "useful ghost" seems extremely weird to me. The only truly "useful ghosts" are the thread-hoppers. Everyone else will simply be exactly who they are just posting on a different thread, and if they were mistrusted to the point that they were lynched by the Living, what are the odds that they will have much chance at influencing the Dead for positive purposes? I mean, they could certainly, but I imagine that trust on the Dead-Thread will be strongly on the side of Night-kills.

I mean, it almost sounds as if the reasoning is, "This person is vocal and probably will serve us well in death!" in which case you ought to go ahead and say outright that you have to intention of lynching a Wolf this day, but rather someone that could also be helpful on the Living thread that you may come to trust and so on... I dunno... I feel as if my rebuke isn't making great sense because really I can't make much sense of the idea I'm speaking against.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lottie

I don't like the way he seems to be sitting back and laughing at the 'spat' between Shasta and Nog, but what's worse is he then pokes and prods them in a seeming attempt to escalate the fight more. By pointing out the one line in Nog's post that could be taken the wrong way, Mänwe's making things worse, not A) ignoring it so we can move on and try to hunt wolves or B) trying to resolve the fight so we can move on and try to hunt wolves.

A good pick– he also doesn't appear to be C) actually trying to work out whether either of them is, in fact, a baddie (and in fact voted for Greenie) but then you, Lottie, seem to be assuming the innocence of both parties, which is rather worrying in its turn.

EDIT:X'd with tp.

[Mithalwen]

Sorry I did my old lady doze off on the sofa thing. Hope I have another hour..*yawn* but have to say random stab in the dark and Somnus look good now...

[Glirdan]

I wouldn't usually double post, but seeing as it has gone dead....

The voting count stands thus:

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate++Nessa
Greenie++Lommy
Shasta++Nog
Agan++Nog(2)
Nog++Shasta
Manwe++Greenie
Elron++Nog(3)

With these people remaining to vote

Glirdan
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Nessa
Blind Guardian
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea

Out of these, BG and Wilwa have been no shows (no I have not heard from my darling butterfly so don't ask)

Now if I HAD to do a suspicions list (which it seems like I do seeing as no one is around to make conversation with ) it would be as this

Inclined to Trust
Phantom - As much as it KILLS me to not want to vote him and see him join the mob of Fenrises, he has made far too much sense and his ideas and thoughts to bold to be a phantywolf.....although, it is phantom and this could be exactly what a phantywolf would want. Either way, I'm more inlcined to trust him and keep him around.
Shasta - After that, albeit, overreaction to Noggy, I'm more inclined to trust him (please read my post #134 for the full explanation
Fea - Even in her very few posts, Fea has made what has to be the most sense out of everyone that I have seen post today
Agan - She's been here for the better part of the Day, making very good contributions and talking perfect sense in my opinion

Leery of
Lommy - see my last post
Ang - There was something in his earlier posts that have just made me feel uneasy about him. I don't entirely suspect Wolf, but Cobbler is definitely coming to mind when I read his posts
Boro - All day, his attack (okay, maybe that's a little too strong of a word...his, thoughts and ideas will suffice for this) on [/b]Nog[/b] just made no sense to me. Granted, Nog has me a little baffled, but that's not unusual. But Boro's has been pretty adamant about it....I don't know, something just feels off.
Mith - Most of her posts have been nothing but banters and that bugs me. Something about it is just not sitting right.


Unsure
[b]Nerwen/b] - Her first few posts of the day were all banter, then she disappeared for the better portion. No idea what to make here.
Noggins - This is nothing new for me...he always has me confused and by midday on Day 2, we'll be knocking heads
Greenie - I haven't seen enough of her to say anything really.
Legate - I actually just remembered he was playing....oh wow.....bed time.....
Lottie - I really just have no idea about her...

??????????????
Manwe
Nessa
Elron
The three above have posted like three to five times each, most of which was banter, some of which had little to no substance in their posts and have been absent for the better part of the day.
Sally - Hasn't posted much....BUT did inform us she may not be able to and that she may not be voting.

No Show
Wilwa
BG


I won't vote for the no shows. For one, I'm sure miss butterfly has a perfectly good explanation for not being here, for another I will give them the one day grace period. I will not vote for [b]Sally[b] as she has explained herself quite well. I will not vote for any of those under the Inclined to Trust list as I want to keep them around.

Seeing as I want to hear more from Manwe, Elron and Nessa, I will also give them a one day grace period.

Which leaves everyone else.....Okay, will be back to vote shortly.


EDIT: Xed since last (turns out I didn't double post )

[Anguirel]

Dead right Nerwen - while Fea was right to bring up the compromise between catching wolves and creating useful spirits, to vote primarily with the latter aim in mind - as I think she, among others, has done - seems to fall too far on the wrong side of that compromise.

You happen to be the object of Fea's privileging of ghost above gaur, but that is for the moment irrelevant; the larger point being that of the reasoning she presented for voting for you, none of it was anti-wolf rather than pro-ghost.

On the other hand I don't yet suspect Fea herself. The fact is that the exciting thing going on is the contribution of the dead, so it's a natural step to concentrate on the Dead rather than the Living because of their novelty. It's easy to forget that our real aim is still exterminating the wolves. For large parts of today, indeed, I have.

At least the case against Nogrod is one built on genuine, if very slight, suspicion. I'd rather vote for Manwe, but I don't think yet another candidate at this point - a relatively taciturn one too - is necessarily helpful...

[Anguirel]

I didn't realise Manwe already had a vote, that invalidates one of my objects to persecuting him.

On the other hand, quite tempted to the vote in hot blood for the next chancer who dares call me a cobbler...

[the phantom]

As far as Nog versus Shasta, upon rereading Shasta's post I'm more than ever leaning towards both of them being innocent.

Glirdan has already expressed most of what I would say regarding Shasta's defense (it shouts "innocent" to me as much as anything I've seen from anyone today).

Similarly, when I look at the way in which Nog accused Shasta, while it may be wrong it does not strike me as invention. His claim that Shasta particularly went after him rather than me based upon who would be around at the deadline- it really sounds like honest paranoia and annoyance. If I recall I have actually been chided for doing the same thing- always assuming that all the baddies are out to get me in particular, and so if someone did to me what Shasta did to Nog I can well imagine having a "Ah ha! Trying to kill me, eh?!" reaction to it, and building the case from there.

[Mithalwen]

Ah another hour, another list ergo another suspect...
Less than 24 hours in and I am not sitting right with someone "check"
flying under the radar "check"
Quite disappointed noone has cursed day ones...
But Fea loves me... and is squabbling with Ang. Joy... to be honest my voting this game may be skewed by the fear of "Huis Clos" situations in the next world. Hoping whne my time comes it will be more Apres Vie...

[Boromir88]

I'm completely lost on this entire voting for people to be good to control the dead thread. Umm, am I mistaken in believing we win by lynching wolves in the living thread? I'm sorry I'm just not understanding this logic of filling the dead thread with people we actually think are innocent...? Why are we even planning this?

1) We win by killing wolves in this life, not by filling the dead place with innocents. Am I foolish in thinking those two things contradict?

2) Simple numbers work out that innocents will control the dead thread. It serves the wolves little good to get lynched, or they lose. Maybe one wolf would start going to work if lynched, but that's not something we should concern ourselves with. And even if Cobblers seek to get themselves killed to work beyond the grave, they don't know who the wolves are.

3) What's so special about the dead thread it MUST UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES be in the control of the innocents or we're doomed? Someone from the living thread gets 2 votes...that's all yes? It's not like the dead are choosing an unstoppable force each day in the living thread, one person gets one extra vote.

So, let's end this silly "we should think about keeping the control of the dead thread in the hands of the innocents" when the real problem should be, handling the business of this thread...lynch wolves.

[the phantom]

Voting-

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Shasta ++ Shasta
Manwe ++ Green
Daughter ++ Nog (3)
Nessa ++ Legate
Fea ++ Nerwen