What About?: Palantirs.

[Gil-Galad]

The Palantirs have always been a mystery personally for me.

In the movies, the Palantirs are shown as like they were telephones, you talk to whom ever holds the another Palantir.

While in the Appendixes of LOTR: ROTK, it says that Denethor used the Palantir of the White Tower to know everything that goes on in his realm of Gondor. It even stated that in the movie.

So either the Palantir has two uses, or the movie version was mistaken, the Palantir's use can be elusive.

If someone who watched the movies before reading the books, they may have orignally thought (as i did when i watched the movies) that if Denethor used the Palantir as he said he did, wouldn't he be talking with Saruman and Sauron?

For example, from the movie, Aragorn used the Palantir to talk to Sauron too, yet it showed that he was entering each others minds, like Pippin and Sauron.


my question to you is what do you think is the use of the Palantir? is it a Elvish Telephone? a great seeing eye that lets you explore areas without going there? or does it have many uses?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

...or the movie version was mistaken, ..

Wow - ya think?

[Gil-Galad]

Originally Posted by davem

Wow - ya think?

Well Davem, please use your your scholary might to help me explain the Palantirs, i'm more interested to know mroe about them.


EDIT: well i just received a neg rep on this post, the person didn't say why or sign his/her name. this post isn't meant to insult Davem though, i was just asking what he thinks about the planatirs.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

Well Davem, please use your your scholary might to help me explain the Palantirs, i'm more interested to know mroe about them.

I've just finished a 12-8pm late shift at the bank so I can only manage sarcasm at the moment. If no-one beats me to it I'll try & put something together tomorrow (if I remember).

[HerenIstarion]

From
Unfinished Tales:
THE PALANTÍRI

I’ll provide several passages from the essay, and as original thread mentioned movies as starting point, let’s compare to what PJ has done with the thing

The palantíri were no doubt never matters of common use or common knowledge, even in Númenor. In Middle-earth they were kept in guarded rooms, high in strong towers, only kings and rulers, and their appointed wardens, had access to them, and they were never consulted, nor exhibited, publicly. But until the passing of the Kings they were not sinister secrets. Their use involved no peril, and no king or other person authorized to survey them would have hesitated to reveal the source of his knowledge of the deeds or opinions of distant rulers, if obtained through the Stones.

Here PJ is not paltering – high tower just the place for the palantír

After the days of the Kings, and the loss of Minas Ithil, there is no further mention of their open and official use. There was no answering Stone left in the North after the shipwreck of Arvedui Last-king in the year . In the Ithil-stone was lost. There then remained only the Anor-stone in Minas Tirith and the Orthanc-stone.
Two things contributed then to the neglect of the Stones, and their passing out of the general memory of the people. The first was ignorance of what had happened to the Ithil-stone: it was reasonably assumed that it was destroyed by the defenders be¬fore Minas Ithil was captured and sacked; but it was clearly possible that it bad been seized and had come into the posses¬sion of Sauron, and some of the wiser and more farseeing may have considered this. It would appear that they did so, and realized that the Stone would be of little use to him for the damage of Gondor, unless it made contact with another Stone that was in accord with it. It was for this reason, it may be supposed, that the Anor-stone, about which all the records of the Stewards are silent until the War of the Ring, was kept as a closely-guarded secret, accessible only to the Ruling Stewards and never by them used (it seems) until Denethor II.

The second reason was the decay of Gondor, and the waning of interest in or knowledge of ancient history among all but a few even of the high men of the realm, except in so far as it concerned their genealogies: their descent and kinship. Gondor after the Kings declined into a "Middle Age" of fading knowledge, and simpler skills. Communications depended on messen¬gers and errand-riders, or in times of urgency upon beacons, and if the Stones of Anor and Orthanc were still guarded as treasures out of the past, known to exist only by a few, the Seven Stones of old were by the people generally forgotten, and the rhymes of lore that spoke of them were if remembered no longer understood; their operations were transformed in legend into the Elvish powers of the ancient kings with their piercing eyes, and the swift birdlike spirits that attended on them, bring¬ing them news or bearing their messages.

Here too, PJ follows closely – Gondor commoners do not know what happens up there in the Tower

The Orthanc-stone appears to have been at this time long disregarded by the Stewards: it was no longer of any use them, and was secure in its impregnable tower. Even if it too had not been overshadowed by the doubt concerning the Ithil-stone, it stood in a region with which Gondor became less and less directly concerned. Calenardhon, never densely populated had been devastated by the Dark Plague of , and thereafter steadily denuded of inhabitants of Númenórean descent by migration to Ithilien and lands nearer Anduin. Isengard remained a personal possession of the Stewards, but Orthanc itself became deserted, and eventually it was closed and its keys removed to Minas Tirith. If Beren the Steward considered the Stone at all when he gave these to Saruman, he probably thought that it could be in no safer hands than those of the head of the Council opposed to Sauron.

Saruman had no doubt from his investigations gained a special knowledge of the Stones, things that would attract his attention, and had become convinced that the Orthanc-stone was still intact in its tower. He acquired the keys of Orthanc in , nominally as warden of the tower and lieutenant of the Stewards of Gondor. At that time the matter of the Orthanc-stone would hardly concern the White Council. Only Saruman, having gained the favour of the Stewards, had yet made sufficient study of the records of Gondor to perceive the interest of the palantíri and the possible uses of those that survived; but of this he said nothing to his colleagues. Owing to Saruman's jealousy and hatred of Gandalf he ceased to cooperate with the Council, which last met in . Without any formal declaration Saru¬man then seized Isengard as his own domain and paid no further attention to Gondor. The Council no doubt disapproved of this; but Saruman was a free agent, and had the right, if he wished, to act independently according to his own policy in the resis¬tance to Sauron.

The Council in general must independently have known of the Stones and their ancient dispositions, but they did not regard them as of much present importance: they were things that belonged to the history of the Kingdoms of the Dúnedain, marvellous and admirable, but mostly now lost or rendered of little use. It must be remembered that the Stones were originally "innocent," serving no evil purpose. It was Sauron who made them sinister, and instruments of domination and deceit.

Here it seems to me PJ made a mistake – as far as I remember, any stone in the movie, if touched, gave a flash of One Eye. Mistake as it took some time for the stone to ‘warm up’ too, c.f. Pippins experience.

Though (warned by Gandalf) the Council may have begun to doubt Saruman's designs as regarded the Rings, not even Gandalf knew that he had become an ally, or servant, of Sauron. This Gandalf only discovered in July . But, although Gandalf had in latter years enlarged his own and the Council's knowledge of Condor's history by study of its documents, his and their chief concern was still with the Ring: the possibilities latent in the Stones were not realized. It is evident that at the time of the War of the Ring the Council had not long become aware of the doubt concerning the fate of the Ithil-stone, and failed (understandably even in such persons as Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf, under the weight of their cares) to appreciate its significance, to consider what might be the result if Sauron became possessed of one of the Stones, and anyone else should then make use of another. It needed the demonstration on Dol Baran of the effects of the Orthanc-stone on Peregrin to reveal suddenly that the "link" between Isengard and Barad-dûr (seen to exist after it was discovered that forces of Isengard had been joined with others directed by Sauron in the attack on the Fellowship at Parth Galen) was in fact the Orthanc-stone – and one other palantír.

But I see how ‘One-Eye Flash When You Touch The Stone’ is working in the movie – Gandalf indeed learns of Saruman’s treachery in Orthank, but it is so much more dramatic in the movie (same flash as when Gandalf touches the Ring, cf)

In his talk to Peregrin as they rode on Shadowfax from Dol Baran (The Two Towers III ) Gandalf's immediate object was to give the Hobbit some idea of the history of the palantíri, so that he might begin to realize the ancientry, dignity, and power of things that he had presumed to meddle with. He was not concerned to exhibit his own processes of discovery and deducution, except in its last point: to explain how Sauron came to have control of them, so that they were perilous for anyone, however exalted, to use. But Gandalf's mind was at the same time earnestly busy with the Stones, considering the bearings of the revelation at Dol Baran upon many things that he had observed and pondered: such as the wide knowledge of events far away possessed by Denethor, and his appearance of premature old age, first observable when he was not much above sixty years old, although he belonged to a race and family that still normally had longer lives than other men. Undoubtedly Gandalf's haste to reach Minas Tirith, in addition to the urgency of the time and the imminence of war, was quickened by his sudden fear that Denethor also had made use of a palantír, the Anor-stone, and his desire to judge what effect this had had on him: whether in the crucial test of desperate war it would not prove that he (like Saruman) was no longer to be trusted and might surrender to Mordor. Gandalf's dealings with Denethor on arrival in Minas Tirith, and in the following days, and all things that they are reported to have said to one another, must be viewed in the light of this doubt in Gandalf's mind.
The importance of the palantir of Minas Tirith in his thoughts thus dated only from Peregrin's experience on Dol Baran. But his knowledge or guesses concerning its existence were, of course, much earlier. Little is known of Gandalf's history until the end of the Watchful Peace and the formation of the White Council, and his special interest in Gondor seems only to have been shown after Bilbo's finding of the Ring and Sauron's open return to Mordor . His attention was then (as was Saruman's) concentrated on the Ring of Isildur; but in his reading in the archives of Minas Tirith he may be assumed to have learned much about the palantíri of Gondor, though with less immediate appreciation of their possi¬ble significance than that shown by Saruman, whose mind was in contrast to Gandalf's always more attracted by artefacts and instruments of power than by persons. Gandalf all the same probably at that time already knew more than did Saruman about the nature and ultimate origin of the palantíri, since all that concerned the ancient realm of Arnor and the later history of those regions was his special province, and he was in close alliance with Elrond.

So Gandalf knew about Denethor and his stone. Another absurdity of beacons’ scene, than

...Denethor succeeded to the Stewardship in , being then fifty-four years old: a masterful man, both wise and learned beyond the measure of those days, and strong-willed, confident in his own powers, and dauntless. His "grimness" was first observable to others after his wife Finduilas died, but it seems fairly plain that he had at once turned to the Stone as soon as he came to power, having long studied the matter of the palantíri and the traditions regarding them and their use preserved in the special archives of the Stewards, available beside the Ruling Steward only to his heir… The breaking strain of Denethor's confrontation of Sauron must be distinguished from the general strain of using the Stone. The latter Denethor thought that he could endure (and not without reason); confrontation with Sauron almost certainly did not occur for many years, and was probably never originally contemplated by Denethor. For the uses of the palantíri, and the distinction between their solitary use for "seeing" and their use for communication with another respondent Stone and its "surveyor," see pp. -. Denethor could, after he had acquired the skill, learn much of distant events by the use of the Anor-stone alone, and even after Sauron became aware of his operations he could still do so, as long as he retained the strength to control his Stone to his own purposes, in spite of Sauron's attempt to "wrench" the Anor-stone always towards himself. It must also be considered that the Stones were only a small item in Sauron's vast designs and operations: a means of dominating and deluding two of his opponents, but he would not (and could not) have the Ithil-stone under perpetual observation. It was not his way to commit such instruments to the use of subordinates; nor had he any servant whose mental power were superior to Saruman's or even Denethor's.

In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened, even against Sauron himself, by the fact the Stones were far more amenable to legitimate users: most of all to true "Heirs of Elendil" (as Aragorn), but also to one with inherited authority(as Denethor), as compared to Saruman, or Sauron. It may noted that the effects were different. Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. And in the second place the Anor-stone was his by right, and nothing but expediency was against his use of it in his grave anxieties. He must have guessed that the Ithil-stone was in evil hands, and risked contact with it, trusting his strength. His trust was not entirely unjustified. Sauron failed to dominate him and could only influence him by deceits. Probably he did not at first look towards Mordor, but was content with such "far views" as the Stone would afford; hence his surprising knowledge of events far off. Whether he ever thus made contact with the Orthanc-stone and Saruman is not told; probably he did, and did so with profit to himself. Sauron could not break in on these confer¬ences: only the surveyor using the Master Stone of Osgiliath could "eavesdrop." While two of the other Stones were in response, the third would find them both blank…. It must however be noted with regard to the narrative of The Lord of the Rings that over and above such deputed authority, even hereditary, any "heir of Elendil" (that is, a recognized descendant occupying a throne or lordship in the Númenórean realms by virtue of this descent) had the right to use any of the palantíri. Aragorn thus claimed the right to take the Orthanc-stone into his possession, since it was now, for the time being, without owner or warden; and also because he was de jure the rightful King of both Condor and Arnor, and could, if he willed, for just cause withdraw all previous grants to himself

As for ‘telephone’, no -

Alone the palantíri could only "see:" they did not transmit sound. Ungoverned by a directing mind they were wayward, and their "visions" were (apparently at least) haphazard. From a high place their westward face, for instance, would look to vast distance, its vision blurred and distorted to either side and above and below, and its foreground obscured by things behind receding in ever-diminishing clarity. Also, what they "saw" was directed or hindered by chance, by darkness, or by "shrouding" (see below). The vision of the palantíri was not "blinded" or "occluded" by physical obstacles, but only by darkness; so they could look through a mountain as they could look through a patch of dark or shadow, but see nothing within that did not receive some light. They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms, caves, or vaults unless some light fell on it; and they could not themselves provide or project light. It was possible to guard against their sight by the process called "shrouding," by which certain things or areas would be seen in a Stone only as a shadow or a deep mist. How this was done (by those aware of the Stones and the possibility of being watched by them) is one of the lost mysteries of the palantíri.

A viewer could by his will cause the vision of the Stone to concentrate on some point, on or near its direct line. The uncontrolled "visions" were small, especially in the minor Stones, though they were much larger to the eye of a beholder who placed himself at some distance from the surface of the palantír (about three feet at best). But controlled by the will of a skilled and strong surveyor, remoter things could be enlarged, brought as it were nearer and clearer, while their background was almost suppressed. Thus a man at a considerable distance might be seen as a tiny figure, half an inch high, difficult to pick oat against a landscape or a concourse of other men; but concentration could enlarge and clarify the vision till he was seen in clear if reduced detail like a picture apparently a foot or more in height, and recognized if he was known to the surveyor. Great concentration might even enlarge some detail that interested the surveyor, so that it could be seen (for instance) if he had a ring on his hand.

But this "concentration" was very tiring and might become exhausting. Consequently it was only undertaken when information was urgently desired, and chance (aided by other information maybe) enabled the surveyor to pick out items (significant for him and his immediate concern) from the welter of the Stone's visions. For example, Denethor sitting before the Anor-stone anxious about Rohan, and deciding whether or not at once to order the kindling of the beacons and the sending out of the "arrow," might place himself in a direct line looking north-west by west through Rohan, passing close to Edoras and on towards the Fords of Isen. At that time there might be visible movements of men in that line. If so, he could concentrate on (say) a group, see them as Riders, and finally discover some figure known to him: Gandalf, for instance, riding with the reinforcements to Helm's Deep, and suddenly breaking away and racing northwards.


The palantíri could not themselves survey men's minds, at unawares or unwilling; for the transference of thought depended on the wills of the user on either side, and thought (received as speech) was only transmittable by one Stone to another in accord.

What else? Meaning 'seer from afar' (roughly), palantír may be paralleled by television of our world (linguistically, that is)

There is more that I've omitted. In order to learn many other interesting things, one may purchase the Unfinished Tales here (or wherever else one may feel inclined to, of course)

Product details of the book linked to:

Hardcover: 472 pages
Publisher: Houghton Mifflin (September 19, 2001)
Language: English
ISBN: 0618154043
Product Dimensions: 9.1 x 6.4 x 1.6 inches
Shipping Weight: 1.52 pounds
Price: $16.38

And it also has customer satisfaction five stars out of five possible. Go for it.