The Halls of Mandos

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I know that the spirits of elves went to the Halls of Mandos after they died, and so too did the spirits of men. What happens after that? Do the righteous and brave and self-sacrificing share the Halls with the wicked and craven and selfish? How are the spirits "judged", when and by whom (assuming they are judged at all)? Do the good guys get any reward? Do the men and elves get separate spaces?

[littlemanpoet]

I don't know when judgment occurs. The fate of humans is beyond the bounds of Arda, whereas Elves wait in the Halls of Mandos until they are reincarnated. This happened to Glorfindel, who after dying while killing a balrog in the First Age at the Fall of Gondolin, was reincarnated and appeared in The Fellowship of the Ring, helping the four hobbits and Aragorn to Imladris.

Beren is waiting in the Halls of Mandos when Luthien comes to sing before Mandos, so humans do apparently spend some time waiting before they are sent beyond Arda. What fate awaits humans outside Arda is not described anywhere in JRRT's legendarium, to my knowledge.

I think the fate of Saruman and Sauron help us to understand something of what happens to evil beings. These were Maia, so it might not apply to elves and humans, but their spirits/ghosts were blown into the East; we are left to assume that they either dissipated or were expelled to the uttermost void. There may be things I'm not aware of and I hope others can correct my mistakes.

[Orald]

I think that Mandos would be comparable to Purgatory. A place for reflecting back on life. Someone like Glorfindel was a very good person in life and sacrificed himself for others so his stay was short, someone like Feanor caused much pain and suffering in the time he was alive, even if he was not evil, so he will stay there until the end.

For more evil spirits a Hell would be nice, but they just don't have that luxury. Perhaps they are cast into the void as littlemanpoet said, Morgoth was.

[Kuruharan]

For more evil spirits a Hell would be nice, but they just don't have that luxury.

Umm...nice? Which 'they' would consider it a luxury?

[The Silver-shod Muse]

It seems strange that a spirit would or even could be "dissipated". I guess it's just my upbringing, but I always assumed that once your spirit has been called to exist, it can't be returned or destroyed. I suppose it fits with the "reap what you sow" maxim: you have to deal with the results of your actions forever. There's no discorporating. Maybe the outer void is a sort of hell? Not a nice place to be anyway...

[Kuruharan]

I think that Tolkien wrote somewhere that Iluvatar could destroy souls. Do I remember where? Well, no. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[Arwen Imladris]

What about Dwarves and Hobbits?

Do the elves go to the Halls of Mandos when they reach the place over the sea, or do they stay in other places as well? Do the ones who don't die ever go back??

[Orald]

IIRC the dwarves have a place set apart for them in Mandos, so I guess they are reincarnated. I believe that is why there were so many Durin's. As for Hobbits, they are pretty much human so they probably have the same fate as Man.

Elves that travel over the Sea do not go to Mandos, they go to Tol Eressea or somewhere on the mainland where the other Elves already live. Now if they die, be it in Aman or Middle-Earth, their spirit will go to Mandos. Unless they refuse the summons, again I don't know if they could do that or not.

[Kuruharan]

I think that they could refuse the summons. At least there are theories floating about on the uses rogue elven spirits might have.

Thingol seems to be one of the resident experts on that, if only we could get his attention...

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Nevtalathiel]

Who summons the elves to the Halls of Mandos, and how do they refuse the summons?
Is being summoned nice, like an invitation or is it seen as a bad thing, like having to go and explain all your misdeeds?
Can you go to the Halls of Mandos if you aren't killed or summoned?

[Kuruharan]

Who summons the elves to the Halls of Mandos, and how do they refuse the summons?

The Valar, or more specifically Mandos (I can't remember his real name at the moment. Namo maybe, but that might be wrong.)
I suppose you refuse it by being really stubborn and refusing to leave Middle earth.

Is being summoned nice, like an invitation or is it seen as a bad thing, like having to go and explain all your misdeeds?

I guess it depends on the sort of life you have led.

Can you go to the Halls of Mandos if you aren't killed or summoned?

Probably not. I don't think it's the sort of place one can just walk into, if you were in Valinor. If you were in Middle earth you could not get there at all (unless you were an elf) except by dying.

[Nevtalathiel]

But if you can't get there without being summoned, how do you get there if you're summoned? Is it like the vikings who were taken to Valhala by those singing women (can't remember their names, sorry)?

[Kuruharan]

Valkyries.

I have no idea. There is never any mention in the books about characters whose role was similar to the Valkyries (I think).

I think that when the death of Luthien is described it just said that her soul left her body and went to Mandos. I don't think it said anything about anybody escorting her.

I think that when you died your soul just went to Mandos, not so much a physical journey as a spiritual one. You're dead and Zap! you're there.

If you choose to go that is, remembering the topic of this thread. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Losthuniel]

would mandos be a nice place to be? or unpleasant and crowded? does it say anywhere? is glorfindel the only example of a reincarnated elf?

[Daniel Telcontar]

I doubt Mandos' Halls, are pleasant, I remember that somewhere it is stated that people there are unhappy. And it also serves as a prison, take for example Melkor. But someone has posted, that the elven souls are reincarnated into a new body and then walks around in Valinor. I have not seen any proof though that they are reincarnated.

[Orald]

Glorfindel was the only Elf to be reembodied and return to Middle-Earth, but in the Silmarillion it states that when Finrod died his stay in Mandos was very short and he walks with his father, Finarfin, in Valinor. Reembodied that is, I am guessing it is quite difficult to walk without a body.

[Kuruharan]

I don't know that Mandos was necessarily unpleasant. It was meant as a place of thought and introspection about your life and the things that happened in it. If you had been an evil Man, Elf, or Dwarf then you might not like it there, but if you had been good then it might not be so bad. (If you were a Man you might not be there very long. More on that later in the post.)

I doubt Mandos' Halls, are pleasant, I remember that somewhere it is stated that people there are unhappy.

I think the part you are talking about is where Luthien is singing before Mandos and how "her sorrow was greater than their [the dead's] sorrows." I don't think that it necessarily means that you were unhappy there. If the dead were reflecting back on their lives, who would not have sorrow to think about?

I think Mandos is probably a place where happiness or sadness is irrelevant or may not exist except as a memory. You are not so concerned about what is happening now as you are with what did happen in your life. At least that's my theory. I'll be glad to hear what somebody else thinks.

On another tangent, I don't think that Men stayed in Mandos very long. When Beren died he was ready for departure very quickly and had to decide to wait for Luthien to show. Of course, Beren lived an unusually virtuous life, so maybe he did not have much to think about. Evil men might have to wait there longer.

Of course, the poor Dwarves are just stuck there until the End.

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

Kuruharan, you are probably right in most of what you write, and I agree. Except on the dwarf-part. Most of them were good, and there is actually very few records of evil dwarves. I do ot think they had done more bad things in their lives than men. Besides, I am not sure that they even go there when they die. Who knows if they do not go straight to the Timeless Halls, to be together with Eru?

[Kuruharan]

Whoa! That was fast! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

It would be a nice thought, but that's not what the Dwarves themselves believed. Their belief (and I think that it's probably true) was that they were gathered together in Mandos and there they would wait for the End when Mahal (Aule) would call on them to aid in rebuilding the world.

The ones who are thought to go to Eru are Men, since they don't stick around and where else are they supposed to go?

[Daniel Telcontar]

You are right about the dwarves, I had forgotten about that. And I suppose we agree on the Men part, that they go to Eru in the Timeless Halls. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Kuruharan]

I should say that the theory that Men go to Eru is just a theory. There may have been some side notes or other drafts that made some comment about the matter, but nothing for certain. I do remember that there was one story of a conversation between Finrod and a wise old woman about this.

Someone may be able to verify if Tolkien ever did make any notes on the subject.

[Orald]

I had always thought the dwarves believed they were reincarnated. Maybe not all dwarves, but I remember reading something about all the Durin's.

[Kuruharan]

I had always thought the dwarves believed they were reincarnated. Maybe not all dwarves, but I remember reading something about all the Durin's.

I always understood that to mean that the later "versions" of Durin were so similar to the original that they were named Durin. I'd never thought they might be reincarnated. Must do further reading of that section.

(Except that my books are packed away in boxes at my new place about twenty miles from where I am now. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )

[Losthuniel]

theres a whole section on the dwarves in the back of RotK, but i dont have it right here with me (im at my cottage) it says something about the durins were named that becuz they resembled the original durin. theres nothing about reembodiment. wen ya think about it, to be reembodied, ya need to be dead first, and it is unlikely that Durin no. 4 was dead at the birth of durin no. 5, and so on for six (or however many durins there were)generations,

[Arvedui]

The Durins were not re-incarnated, but just later generations of the Durin line. Example is Rush Limbaugh III is not his father Rush Limbaugh II, or grandfather Rush Limbaugh.