Could Gandalf die (again)? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

rudeboy · 02-23-2004, 08:12 AM

2 questions;

Could Gandalf die in battle? Say he was stabbed through the chest in the battle of Pellenor (sp?), would he die? So basically could he be killed like the rest of them?

And following on, would he be sent back again if he could die! Like what happened with the balrog?

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 02-23-2004, 08:41 AM

Well, it would certainly seen anticlimatic, won't it, if Gandalf were to get shot through the eye by a sneaking orcish archer after returning victorious over death?

Gee, Istari (Wizards) are supposed to be Maiar of some sort. That is 'gods' (angels) in Westron

Apparently, these Wizards CAN be killed physically. Spirtually, however, they seem to be subservient to a higher order: eg. Gandalf being sent back, Saruman being rejected by the West after dying. Oh, by the way, the West means Paradise in layman terms.

Anyway, I would not suppose Prof T would write Gandalf to death just with any trivial accidents that are so often fatal with common men like you or I.

Althern · 02-23-2004, 09:00 AM

Of course Gandalf could die, or reduced a spirit, if you want to put it that way. Saruman was also an Ainur, and wound up dead. And as for whether he would come back, I believe the answer is probably, but it would never be tested, as such a narrative device would not be used twice.

rudeboy · 02-23-2004, 12:02 PM

Yes, but it just seems like they could keep sending Gandalf back after his physical body is killed! If Sauron was victorious, & Gandalf was a slave, he could kill himself & his 'spirit' return to valinor!

Just seems as though he had infinite lives in M.E til his task was complete!

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 02-23-2004, 12:20 PM

Hmm...This is just my opinion but here it goes.

I think that those maiar who were chosen to go to M-E were incarnated also they were human-like (or elf-like: long age and so forth). Gandalf really died after the fight with that balrog but his spirit was sent back. I don't know if I'm now mixing the books and the movie but if I recall right, Gandalf was glowing white light every now and then...after all, he returned as Gandalf the White! It is said concerning the ainur that without a physical form they were like a flame or something (you'll probably get my point). I think this light shone through Gandalf and according to my theory, he wasn't the same old man than before but he was in a more noble form. So I think that it would have been impossible to kill him twice. If he had got badly wounded, his inner flame /fire (or what ever) would have healed him.

paavo · 02-23-2004, 01:51 PM

most of the answers have said that gandalf could be killed like any other man. but in Fangorn, after Gimli's attempt to chop of Gandalf's head (mistaking him for Saruman), Gandalf says

Quote:

Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm to me. Indeed, my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.

Doesn't that mean that he could not be killed? Of course Gandalf could have meant that his "spirit" could not be harmed but if Gimli would have succeeded to chop his head of, the surviving of Gandalf's spirit wouldn't really had helped Middle-earth and some harm would have been done. So I would say that Gandalf could not be killed.

Thorongil · 02-23-2004, 02:01 PM

I read that the Ainur "dressed" themselves in bodies similar to those of Eru's children. They could at anytime take off their bodies and be something like transparent spirits. Olorin (Gandalf) used to be among the Elves in this state. Atleast that is what the Silm says.

Legolas · 02-23-2004, 02:06 PM

Quote:

If Sauron was victorious, & Gandalf was a slave, he could kill himself & his 'spirit' return to valinor!

Absolutely not. Gandalf (and the wziards) were so bound to their physical body as old men that when they died, their fea (spirit) would leave the world just like a man's fea would. Gandalf's spirit did not return to Valinor when he died to begin with. It went outside of the world where it began and Eru himself (the only one with the ability to do so) sent Gandalf back. Should Gandalf do something as dishonorable as suicide, he certainly would not have been sent back.

Quote:

Doesn't that mean that he could not be killed? Of course Gandalf could have meant that his "spirit" could not be harmed but if Gimli would have succeeded to chop his head of, the surviving of Gandalf's spirit wouldn't really had helped Middle-earth and some harm would have been done. So I would say that Gandalf could not be killed.

No, he could be killed. He means that they would not be able to because he could withstand and ultimately block, reject, and destroy their weapons. They aren't strong enough to, in other words. Should he be tied down and unconscious, for example, I suppose they could've beheaded him, but such a situation is not in the least bit realistic.

Oroaranion · 02-24-2004, 02:32 PM

The sporits are subservient to a higher being(s). These are the Valar, practically gods. They could choose a form to live in, but they were bound to it until it is destroyed, and their spirit would make a different form.

Wasn't Sauron a Maia? And if you cut of one of Gandalf's fingers off, would his spirit escape?

Findegil · 02-25-2004, 12:56 AM

Loosing a finger did not cause Sauron spirit to fly from his body! What caused that was that he was utterly defated. Gil-Galad and Elendil had already fought him down and when Isildur cuted the Ring from his hand and claimed it for his owne Sauron was defeated for that time and saw no hope to get back on top without a complete retreat which he could only accomplish by leaving his body.

Such a situation was impossible for Gandalf, neither for Gandalf the Grey nor for Gandalf the White. Gandalf served Eru (that's the one and only God) and ultimatly he trusted in Eru to set things right. For that reason he tried his best to archive his task within the given rules, but not beyond them. Sauron was an enemy of Eru and thus could never be sure of ultimat succses of his ideas. So he had to do anythink to accomplish his end and would not accept any rules.

Respectfully
Findegil

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 02-25-2004, 11:40 AM

One is left to wonder how Morgoth is going to take shape to make war on the Valar in Dagor Dagorath... Meteorite hit Middle-Earth?

Fingolfin II · 03-03-2004, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm to me. Indeed, my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.

This is interesting, because Aragorn had the sword Anduril. As we all know, Isildur 'hurt' Sauron with Narsil (cutting his finger off) and reducing him greatly. Does this mean that Gandalf is in some way stronger than Sauron, even though he fears him? Remember- Sauron was wearing the ring when Isildur chopped his finger off.

Also, the 'inner flame' of the Ainur that dancing ungoliant mentioned is Ea, the 'flame imperishable' which Eru set in all the Ainur. This leads me to say, what happened to the Balrogs when they were slain (i.e. Gothmog, and the two slain by Gandalf and Glorfindel)? Would their spirits go beyond the world or be subservient to another power? Keep in mind that they are Maiar also.

02-23-2004, 08:12 AM	#1
rudeboy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flitwick, Beds Posts: 47	Could Gandalf die (again)? 2 questions; Could Gandalf die in battle? Say he was stabbed through the chest in the battle of Pellenor (sp?), would he die? So basically could he be killed like the rest of them? And following on, would he be sent back again if he could die! Like what happened with the balrog?

02-23-2004, 12:20 PM	#5
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,234	Hmm...This is just my opinion but here it goes. I think that those maiar who were chosen to go to M-E were incarnated also they were human-like (or elf-like: long age and so forth). Gandalf really died after the fight with that balrog but his spirit was sent back. I don't know if I'm now mixing the books and the movie but if I recall right, Gandalf was glowing white light every now and then...after all, he returned as Gandalf the White! It is said concerning the ainur that without a physical form they were like a flame or something (you'll probably get my point). I think this light shone through Gandalf and according to my theory, he wasn't the same old man than before but he was in a more noble form. So I think that it would have been impossible to kill him twice. If he had got badly wounded, his inner flame /fire (or what ever) would have healed him. __________________ Fenris Wolf

02-23-2004, 02:01 PM	#7
Thorongil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Elvenpath Posts: 780	I read that the Ainur "dressed" themselves in bodies similar to those of Eru's children. They could at anytime take off their bodies and be something like transparent spirits. Olorin (Gandalf) used to be among the Elves in this state. Atleast that is what the Silm says. __________________ To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. ~Sun Tzu

02-24-2004, 02:32 PM	#9
Oroaranion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 94	The sporits are subservient to a higher being(s). These are the Valar, practically gods. They could choose a form to live in, but they were bound to it until it is destroyed, and their spirit would make a different form. Wasn't Sauron a Maia? And if you cut of one of Gandalf's fingers off, would his spirit escape? __________________ I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

02-23-2004, 08:41 AM	#2
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	Well, it would certainly seen anticlimatic, won't it, if Gandalf were to get shot through the eye by a sneaking orcish archer after returning victorious over death? Gee, Istari (Wizards) are supposed to be Maiar of some sort. That is 'gods' (angels) in Westron Apparently, these Wizards CAN be killed physically. Spirtually, however, they seem to be subservient to a higher order: eg. Gandalf being sent back, Saruman being rejected by the West after dying. Oh, by the way, the West means Paradise in layman terms. Anyway, I would not suppose Prof T would write Gandalf to death just with any trivial accidents that are so often fatal with common men like you or I.

02-23-2004, 09:00 AM	#3
Althern Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A twin city divided by a great river... must be Osgiliath Posts: 50	Of course Gandalf could die, or reduced a spirit, if you want to put it that way. Saruman was also an Ainur, and wound up dead. And as for whether he would come back, I believe the answer is probably, but it would never be tested, as such a narrative device would not be used twice.

02-23-2004, 12:02 PM	#4
rudeboy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flitwick, Beds Posts: 47	Yes, but it just seems like they could keep sending Gandalf back after his physical body is killed! If Sauron was victorious, & Gandalf was a slave, he could kill himself & his 'spirit' return to valinor! Just seems as though he had infinite lives in M.E til his task was complete!

02-25-2004, 12:56 AM	#10
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	Loosing a finger did not cause Sauron spirit to fly from his body! What caused that was that he was utterly defated. Gil-Galad and Elendil had already fought him down and when Isildur cuted the Ring from his hand and claimed it for his owne Sauron was defeated for that time and saw no hope to get back on top without a complete retreat which he could only accomplish by leaving his body. Such a situation was impossible for Gandalf, neither for Gandalf the Grey nor for Gandalf the White. Gandalf served Eru (that's the one and only God) and ultimatly he trusted in Eru to set things right. For that reason he tried his best to archive his task within the given rules, but not beyond them. Sauron was an enemy of Eru and thus could never be sure of ultimat succses of his ideas. So he had to do anythink to accomplish his end and would not accept any rules. Respectfully Findegil

02-25-2004, 11:40 AM	#11
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	One is left to wonder how Morgoth is going to take shape to make war on the Valar in Dagor Dagorath... Meteorite hit Middle-Earth?