The Mortality of Elros - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Castamir · 12-04-2003, 05:32 AM

Why do you think Elros chose mortality? Just express your opinions.

Lord Elrond · 12-04-2003, 06:34 AM

I think since Tolkien on only had two sons of Earendil and Elwing one of them had to choose mortality and the other elf kindred so Tolkien could continue with the continuity of his story. I don't think there is any in depth reason why however if I were to make believe I will say that he was a daddy's boy and wanted to be just like his father who was mortal. He might have even had the delusion that he could become immortal like his father (presumably immortal) through his own accomplishments. However I think its just due to the fact Tolkien chose Elrond to be Immortal so the other brother had to be mortal.

Numenorean · 12-04-2003, 08:12 AM

Lord Elrond:

Quote:

I don't think there is any in depth reason why however if I were to make believe I will say that he was a daddy's boy and wanted to be just like his father who was mortal.

Elros' father was half mortal and half Noldor, his paternal grandfather, Tuor, was entirely mortal, at least to begin with.
I disagree Elrond, and think that some seriously deep reasoning was behind Elros' decision to choose mortality, certainly there was more to it than the 'daddy's boy' theory.
Maybe he saw that Men were leaderless after Morgoths defeat, and as he was probably one of the only remaining direct decendants of the ruling House of Hador, it was therefore his birthright to rule the remnant of the Edain as a mortal.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-04-2003, 11:48 AM

I agree. While Elrond would continue to be a very important figure for thousands of years, Elros lived as a mighty King of Men for some hundreds of years. Tempting, especially as he could probably tell that evil would return sometime, but that the immediate future looked somewhat rosy.

Finwe · 12-04-2003, 01:39 PM

He probably felt a certain duty towards Men, since all of their great heroes had fallen in the fight against Morgoth. He would be the perfect candidate to rule the remnant of the Edain, because first of all, he was the highest born candidate for the kingship, and secondly, since he had been an "Elf" for most of his life, he was closer to nature, and could understand the minds of his people better, than some of the other Men.

Secret Fire · 12-04-2003, 04:17 PM

I have pondered this question myself many times over and the best answer that I can come up with is that he desired Lluvatar's gift: to live a destiny not bound to Arda and to be the master of his own destiny. This was the mighty gift of Lluvatar to the Edain. To be in direct communion with Lluvatar, without the intermediaries in the form of Valar. Elros could forge his own destiny and have whatever fate he desired. Not to mention, when he was done, he could give up his live and live with Eru, as the Valar, for eternity with his immortal soul, not ceasing to be, but simple ceasingto be in th physical realm.
Did that come out of my noggin?? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[ 5:17 PM December 04, 2003: Message edited by: Secret Fire ]

Findegil · 12-07-2003, 04:55 AM

Could it be that he was already in love with his later wife? Since she was obviously a mortal woman, he would have wished to share her fate.

Respectfully
Findegil

Eggy · 12-07-2003, 07:50 AM

Maybe he didnt want to be imortal, the idea of being bound to every age of this Earth untill the end of time(which is when exactly??) may have scared him, and the idea of being able to help the kindred of men appealed to him.

Amarie of the Vanyar · 12-07-2003, 11:09 AM

I agree with Findegil. Elros and Elrond chose their fate when they were about 60 years old. It is quite reasonable to think that at that age, Elros was already in love with his future wife [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tar-Alcarin · 12-07-2003, 12:49 PM

he probably felt that his life was supposed to be to the Numenorians. He liked them more than the Noldorians i guess. or he just wanted to get away from middle earth and Elrond.

Lord Elrond · 12-08-2003, 11:05 AM

I apologise for my sarcasim, I didn't literally mean that I was trying to make the point(although I did it poorly) that Tolkien needed a character to continue the line of men. I agree with most of your theories and I am sure that many of them could be correct but when it comes down to it Tolkien had a an elf to continue the tale of the marriage of the two races but he wanted a man to also continue the line so that men and elves would not be wholey estranged in the third age. I am sure stories could and might have been made to explain Elros theory but if they both would have chosen to be immortal it just would not have been as interesting and there would not have been able to be as many options for Tolkien to continue the story with.
I apologise again for the short answer I originally posted and my sarcastic comment about daddy's boy (although children often favor one parent over the other and this could be one of those created stories as to why he chose however it is only a possibility and not the point I was trying to make) but I hope that I cleared up and ask all of you to look at my last statement after explaining myself better. I hope you don't think any less of me and will forget any conclusions you might have come to about me from my last statement.

Numenorean · 12-09-2003, 04:01 AM

Hey Elrond, dont worry about it mate, I thought your first post on this thread was quite funny! I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive of your theory, you are probably at least half right anyway.
Eärendil his father was given the choice of either a mortal or an immortal existance, and although he was weary of his life and the world he followed Elwings lead and passed into immortality. Had Elros been involved with a female Elf at the start of the 2nd Age, he may have chosen a different path too.

Finwe · 12-09-2003, 04:46 PM

Also, the reason that Earendil and Elwing chose immortality was to try and make up for the loss of Luthien to Mankind. If Elros had felt that strongly about Elves, he would have probably chosen to become an Elf.

Foolofatook · 12-14-2003, 09:50 PM

I have always seen Elros' decision as a choice for power. He was given the opportunity to rule the great nation of men in its original glory. That sounds pretty good to me. Also didn't Elrond start out as a servant to Gil-Galad. It wasn't until much later that he founded Rivendell. In a way they both chose immortality, Elrond in a physical form, Elros in a figurative form. He got a pretty good deal in the end, maybe even better than Elrond. But that's up for interpretation.

Legolas · 12-14-2003, 10:03 PM

'Mortality' within Middle-earth was viewed as a gift. In the general scope of things, mortality was mostly preferred and those who saw this 'general scope' that way would be apt to choose mortality given the conditions. The Elvish 'immortality' is not absolute immortality (as far as we know). It is "serial longevity" - immortality within Arda, to live as long as it does. This could've been part of Elros' reasoning.

doug*platypus · 12-15-2003, 05:31 PM

Duty, I believe. Apart from the advantages that mortality confers, in general elves seemed to have had a much more preferable existence to men. They live on a higher plane, really, and are something that (some) men could only ever hope to be like. People like Hador or Tuor, in my opinion, become elf-groupies because they wish that they were in fact elves.

Unlike most posters on this thread, I don't think that Elros' decision to become mortal was entirely self-centred. I think it would have been obvious to the two brothers, or at least to Elrond, that the future of Middle-Earth and of mankind depended greatly on an elvish bloodline and the creation of the Númenóreans. It is probable that Elros was more suited to this role, or even perhaps that Elrond could not be other than an elflord. But I do think it would have been a conscious decision made by the two of them that Elros must choose to be a mortal king.

I think that it was a noble sacrifice more than a lifestyle choice, although obviously Elros was rewarded greatly for it with a wife, a kingdom, 500 years of life, and a way to exit the circles of the world. Considering what Elrond eventually had to go through, with the War of the Last Alliance, the death of Celebrían and his sundering from Arwen, I'd say Elros made a pretty good choice!

Finwe · 12-15-2003, 08:46 PM

True, but for the most part, the events of the later Third Age were not under Elrond's control. He was forced to react to certain situations around him. Elros, on the other hand, lived in a very peaceful period of time. The beginning of the Second Age was almost completely devoid of conflict, ergo, Elros had a much easier life. It all depended on situations that were not under their control.

Morgul Queen · 12-17-2003, 03:10 PM

I recall reading an essay on Elven twins about a year ago, I'll try and dig up the URL, but it talked about how twins in Tolkien are essentially one person with a divergant fate. Amrad and Amras were the first example. One, Amras, was actually supposed to die at Losgar when the ships burned - he was to be trapped inside one, but was rescued - and Amrod was to die at the mouths of the sirion. However, this fate was avoided and they both were killed during the Third Kinslaying.

Originally, Elwing and Earendil had only one child, Elrond, who chose to be Mortal, but again the divergence of the fates for this child resulted ina twin being born, Elros, who chose to be Mortal, rather than Elrond, who, with the appearance of a twin, chose to be of the Eldar, thus accomodating both Fates.

Confused? I'll find the URL, the original essay is a lot clearer, this is just paraphrased from what I remember of it, there's a lot more info and detail.

12-21-2003, 07:56 PM

I think Elros chose humanity because he needed something with a future. The elves, in decline and slowly passing to the west, were not as vibrant as men, freshly established in Numenor. By Choosing mortality, Elros gave himself as the founder of a line that would provide the dynamic leaders of men, in whose hands the future of middle earth lay. Elessar, Elendil, Pharazon,Isildur, all the Kings of Numenor, Gondor, and Arnor are descended from Elros- it could be argued that he had a much greater impact on the fate of the world than Elrond. I think he made a good call.

12-04-2003, 05:32 AM	#1
Castamir Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Gondor Posts: 18	The Mortality of Elros Why do you think Elros chose mortality? Just express your opinions.

12-04-2003, 06:34 AM	#2
Lord Elrond Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Buffalo Posts: 38	I think since Tolkien on only had two sons of Earendil and Elwing one of them had to choose mortality and the other elf kindred so Tolkien could continue with the continuity of his story. I don't think there is any in depth reason why however if I were to make believe I will say that he was a daddy's boy and wanted to be just like his father who was mortal. He might have even had the delusion that he could become immortal like his father (presumably immortal) through his own accomplishments. However I think its just due to the fact Tolkien chose Elrond to be Immortal so the other brother had to be mortal. __________________ "May the blessing of Elves, Men, and other free peoples go with you"

12-04-2003, 11:48 AM	#4
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I agree. While Elrond would continue to be a very important figure for thousands of years, Elros lived as a mighty King of Men for some hundreds of years. Tempting, especially as he could probably tell that evil would return sometime, but that the immediate future looked somewhat rosy. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-04-2003, 01:39 PM	#5
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	He probably felt a certain duty towards Men, since all of their great heroes had fallen in the fight against Morgoth. He would be the perfect candidate to rule the remnant of the Edain, because first of all, he was the highest born candidate for the kingship, and secondly, since he had been an "Elf" for most of his life, he was closer to nature, and could understand the minds of his people better, than some of the other Men. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-04-2003, 04:17 PM	#6
Secret Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon State University Posts: 47	I have pondered this question myself many times over and the best answer that I can come up with is that he desired Lluvatar's gift: to live a destiny not bound to Arda and to be the master of his own destiny. This was the mighty gift of Lluvatar to the Edain. To be in direct communion with Lluvatar, without the intermediaries in the form of Valar. Elros could forge his own destiny and have whatever fate he desired. Not to mention, when he was done, he could give up his live and live with Eru, as the Valar, for eternity with his immortal soul, not ceasing to be, but simple ceasingto be in th physical realm. Did that come out of my noggin?? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [ 5:17 PM December 04, 2003: Message edited by: Secret Fire ] __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

12-07-2003, 04:55 AM	#7
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	Could it be that he was already in love with his later wife? Since she was obviously a mortal woman, he would have wished to share her fate. Respectfully Findegil

12-07-2003, 07:50 AM	#8
Eggy Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Green land of Ireland Posts: 54	Maybe he didnt want to be imortal, the idea of being bound to every age of this Earth untill the end of time(which is when exactly??) may have scared him, and the idea of being able to help the kindred of men appealed to him. __________________ "A dog this good you have to feed every day"Homer Simpson

12-07-2003, 11:09 AM	#9
Amarie of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 215	I agree with Findegil. Elros and Elrond chose their fate when they were about 60 years old. It is quite reasonable to think that at that age, Elros was already in love with his future wife [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

12-07-2003, 12:49 PM	#10
Tar-Alcarin Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Numenore Posts: 108	he probably felt that his life was supposed to be to the Numenorians. He liked them more than the Noldorians i guess. or he just wanted to get away from middle earth and Elrond. __________________ Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless

12-08-2003, 11:05 AM	#11
Lord Elrond Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Buffalo Posts: 38	I apologise for my sarcasim, I didn't literally mean that I was trying to make the point(although I did it poorly) that Tolkien needed a character to continue the line of men. I agree with most of your theories and I am sure that many of them could be correct but when it comes down to it Tolkien had a an elf to continue the tale of the marriage of the two races but he wanted a man to also continue the line so that men and elves would not be wholey estranged in the third age. I am sure stories could and might have been made to explain Elros theory but if they both would have chosen to be immortal it just would not have been as interesting and there would not have been able to be as many options for Tolkien to continue the story with. I apologise again for the short answer I originally posted and my sarcastic comment about daddy's boy (although children often favor one parent over the other and this could be one of those created stories as to why he chose however it is only a possibility and not the point I was trying to make) but I hope that I cleared up and ask all of you to look at my last statement after explaining myself better. I hope you don't think any less of me and will forget any conclusions you might have come to about me from my last statement. __________________ "May the blessing of Elves, Men, and other free peoples go with you"

12-09-2003, 04:01 AM	#12
Numenorean Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bay of Eldanna Posts: 94	Hey Elrond, dont worry about it mate, I thought your first post on this thread was quite funny! I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive of your theory, you are probably at least half right anyway. Eärendil his father was given the choice of either a mortal or an immortal existance, and although he was weary of his life and the world he followed Elwings lead and passed into immortality. Had Elros been involved with a female Elf at the start of the 2nd Age, he may have chosen a different path too. __________________ '…Avallónë, the haven of the Eldar upon Eressëa, easternmost of the Undying Lands, and thence at times the Firstborn still would come sailing to Númenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset…'

12-09-2003, 04:46 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Also, the reason that Earendil and Elwing chose immortality was to try and make up for the loss of Luthien to Mankind. If Elros had felt that strongly about Elves, he would have probably chosen to become an Elf. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-14-2003, 09:50 PM	#14
Foolofatook Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: UMass Amherst Posts: 14	I have always seen Elros' decision as a choice for power. He was given the opportunity to rule the great nation of men in its original glory. That sounds pretty good to me. Also didn't Elrond start out as a servant to Gil-Galad. It wasn't until much later that he founded Rivendell. In a way they both chose immortality, Elrond in a physical form, Elros in a figurative form. He got a pretty good deal in the end, maybe even better than Elrond. But that's up for interpretation. __________________ Fond as he was of Frodo, Fatty Bolger had no desire to leave the Shire, nor to see what lay outside it.

12-14-2003, 10:03 PM	#15
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	'Mortality' within Middle-earth was viewed as a gift. In the general scope of things, mortality was mostly preferred and those who saw this 'general scope' that way would be apt to choose mortality given the conditions. The Elvish 'immortality' is not absolute immortality (as far as we know). It is "serial longevity" - immortality within Arda, to live as long as it does. This could've been part of Elros' reasoning. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-15-2003, 05:31 PM	#16
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Duty, I believe. Apart from the advantages that mortality confers, in general elves seemed to have had a much more preferable existence to men. They live on a higher plane, really, and are something that (some) men could only ever hope to be like. People like Hador or Tuor, in my opinion, become elf-groupies because they wish that they were in fact elves. Unlike most posters on this thread, I don't think that Elros' decision to become mortal was entirely self-centred. I think it would have been obvious to the two brothers, or at least to Elrond, that the future of Middle-Earth and of mankind depended greatly on an elvish bloodline and the creation of the Númenóreans. It is probable that Elros was more suited to this role, or even perhaps that Elrond could not be other than an elflord. But I do think it would have been a conscious decision made by the two of them that Elros must choose to be a mortal king. I think that it was a noble sacrifice more than a lifestyle choice, although obviously Elros was rewarded greatly for it with a wife, a kingdom, 500 years of life, and a way to exit the circles of the world. Considering what Elrond eventually had to go through, with the War of the Last Alliance, the death of Celebrían and his sundering from Arwen, I'd say Elros made a pretty good choice! __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-15-2003, 08:46 PM	#17
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	True, but for the most part, the events of the later Third Age were not under Elrond's control. He was forced to react to certain situations around him. Elros, on the other hand, lived in a very peaceful period of time. The beginning of the Second Age was almost completely devoid of conflict, ergo, Elros had a much easier life. It all depended on situations that were not under their control. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-17-2003, 03:10 PM	#18
Morgul Queen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dontgonearthe Castle Posts: 414	I recall reading an essay on Elven twins about a year ago, I'll try and dig up the URL, but it talked about how twins in Tolkien are essentially one person with a divergant fate. Amrad and Amras were the first example. One, Amras, was actually supposed to die at Losgar when the ships burned - he was to be trapped inside one, but was rescued - and Amrod was to die at the mouths of the sirion. However, this fate was avoided and they both were killed during the Third Kinslaying. Originally, Elwing and Earendil had only one child, Elrond, who chose to be Mortal, but again the divergence of the fates for this child resulted ina twin being born, Elros, who chose to be Mortal, rather than Elrond, who, with the appearance of a twin, chose to be of the Eldar, thus accomodating both Fates. Confused? I'll find the URL, the original essay is a lot clearer, this is just paraphrased from what I remember of it, there's a lot more info and detail. __________________ Athrabeth is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King Oh...and call me Morgy!

12-21-2003, 07:56 PM	#19
AgarwaenUmarth Guest Posts: n/a	I think Elros chose humanity because he needed something with a future. The elves, in decline and slowly passing to the west, were not as vibrant as men, freshly established in Numenor. By Choosing mortality, Elros gave himself as the founder of a line that would provide the dynamic leaders of men, in whose hands the future of middle earth lay. Elessar, Elendil, Pharazon,Isildur, all the Kings of Numenor, Gondor, and Arnor are descended from Elros- it could be argued that he had a much greater impact on the fate of the world than Elrond. I think he made a good call.