If they still had Gandalf...

[AragornII]

How do you think the story would have been different if Gandalf had not fallen at the Bridge of Khazad-Dum?

For one thing, I don't think that Boromir would have died. Gandalf would have been there to prevent Frodo from leaving and Boromir from dying. But, then he wouldn't have become the White Wizard, and he, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli wouldn't have been at Helm's Deep. He probably would have been with Frodo, which would have changed that whole aspect of the story. And Aragorn might have gone with Boromir to Minas Tirith and then Denethor might not have gone crazy and... Whew! There's a lot. So I guess that Gandalf falling was important to how the story turned out.

What do you guys think?

[Formendacil]

The entire story would have been changed almost entirely... That's a little too much for me to wrap my mind around and speculate on, so I'll just look at one little part of it.

I've always wondered how Gandalf intended to get into Mordor. Obviously not by the Morannon, and just as obviously not by the way of Cirith Ungol. Therefore, it must have been by some other way. Personally, I've always been rather curious as to these other ways, for surely there is more than one.

Another thing I wonder about is how much of Fellowship would have gone on until the end. I don't think Gandalf would have sent Frodo and Sam alone, although in all likelihood he would not have gone himself. My personal conjecture is that Boromir and Aragorn would have gone on towards Gondor (possibly being diverted towards Rohan, and so saving that land), and that Legolas and Gimli would have been sent with Frodo and Sam to Mordor (with instructions on how to find their way in).

That leaves Gandalf, Merry, and Pippin. They might have gone with Boromir and Aragorn, or they might have gone elsewhere. I personally fancy elsewhere, but if not Minas Tirith, then where? Perhaps THEY would have gone to Rohan, while Aragorn and Boromir went to Minas Tirith. Except that Aragorn would not have been able to fulfill the Prophecy...

Of course, this is all idle speculation, but it IS fascinating. And one has to wonder, what would have happened to Saruman without Gandalf the White? I can see Gandalf the Grey having about the same skill against the Nazgul and the orks as Gandalf the White, but I cannot see Gandalf the Grey breaking the staff of Saruman. He wouldn't have had the authority. Yes, there are many questions....

[Lolidir]

i have found myself wondering this same thing as well as others. and i have been involved in some other "what if" threads. and one thing that i have been told and have given thought to is the fact that everything happpens for a reason, and everything has a purpose. even the tinyest detail has some sort of importance.

for something as big as Gandlaf dying to be changed would change the entire story. you wouldnt have Gandalf the white. the fellowship would still be together. its hard to say where the story would go because of how huge the change would be but i personally think as for Rohan it would have probably been defeated in Edoras and then at the battle of Pelanor Fields they wouldnt have been able to help, and they played a big part in that. the witch king might not have been defeated as a result of Eowyn not being there. as for Aragorn and Boromir, they would have prolly continued to Minas Tirith and gone to help hold Osgiliath and maybe over run since Gandalf wouldnt have been there to drive away the Nazgul because he was away in Mordor with Frodo. the Hobbits and Gandalf would have continued to Mordor and i have no idea how they would have gone because Gandalf prolly would have gone a totally different way. they prolly wouldnt have found Gollum and then who knows who knows if the ring would even be destroyed then, because it was an accident that it even happened in the first place. as for Legolas and Gimli its hard to say where they would have gone because if they didnt have to rescue Merry and Pippin they prolly wouldnt have gotten so close with Aragorn and might not have been willing to follow him to death.

so really its hard to say anything other than the story would be totally different.
sorry this is so long but i got started and once that heppens its hard to get me to stop.

[Ruoutorin]

Not to be controversial, but I don't thing the story would have changed much at all. Middle Earth seems to revolve around fate and destiny and there are characters in Middle Earth that have already seen the general outcomes of events . For instance, it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing. Prophacies by qualified characters in ME (such as elves) can pretty much be taken as gospel. So, IMO, the whole story is already pre-ordained. If Gandalf had not fallen in Moria, I believe that minor details may have been altered slightly, but big events such as the death of Boromir would have still taken place because it is that character's destiny to die.

[aelithes]

I agree with Ruoutorin that fate has a part to play in what transpires in LOTR, but it's certainly not absolute, nor does Tolkien wish us to think so; he is careful to not make his characters mere puppets to fate.

The most conspicuous and efficacious piece of evidence for this is that Frodo was in fact foreseen to fail (and fail he did) - it was precisely the compounding of various expressions of 'free will', the anti-fate (e.g., the pity of Bilbo, the pity of Frodo, etc.), that resulted in the ring's inadvertent destruction.

But to get back to the topic! Yes, the matter of still having Gandalf is definitely too big to wrap my head around. The repercussions would've been huge. I can only say that in terms of the Fellowship, it probably would have stayed together rather longer than it actually did. But as Galadriel says, the seduction of the ring would have consumed them all, and I am much more uneasy about Frodo's chance of success if he's surrounded by those who feign friendship while harbouring secret (not-so-secret) desires (Boromir, Aragorn, the rest of the Fellowship, inevitably) as opposed to those whom he is openly suspicious of (e.g., Gollum). It's an inexplicable hunch, but I just think the ring would not have made it closer to its goal than Minas Morgul, if that.

[Boromir88]

it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing.

That is "now man would kill the witch-king," much different then "could."

As for the question, I don't know if much would have changed. If Gandalf goes along, you will still have the uruk attack, which ultimately could end the life of Boromir and the capture of the two hobbits. That means again the fellowship is faced with do they follow Merry and Pippin? If Boromir doesn't fall to the ring WITH Gandalf being there then I think Frodo is along for the ride, because he would have no "desiding force" to have him go to Mordor. Frodo knew what he had to do, he just didn't want to do it, and it took an incident like Boromir falling to madness to get Frodo to realize he had to get out of the Fellowship. If Boromir doesn't fall to the ring, then Frodo doesn't go to Mordor, he'll go with the company. With that being said. Who's to say if Gandalf is there that the same thing won't happen?

The question still will remain, Boromir wants to go to Minas Tirith, Frodo doesn't. I could see Gandalf and Aragorn in letting Frodo be the deciding factor in which way to go. So, Frodo wonders off in the wild, Boromir goes to try to sway him towards Minas Tirith, goes crazy on Frodo, Frodo realizes he has to get away, so he does. Boromir comes back says he lost Frodo, they drastically go searching for him, Boromir stumbles upon Merry and Pippin (as well as a bunch of orcs), dies, Merry and Pippin captured. :breathes:

[The Saucepan Man]

I wonder if Gandalf could have received his power-up without dying. Given that the primary reason for it was Saruman's treachery and that it came direct from Eru, I don't see why not ...

[AragornII]

If Gandalf had been with Frodo, how would they have gotten to Mt. Doom once inside Mordor? I know someone said that Gandalf probably had a different route, but once they were in, weren't like 10,000 orcs between them and Mt. Doom? If Aragorn and Co. hadn't distracted the Eye of Sauron at the Morannon and drew all the orcs away, Frodo and Sam might not have made it through.
Someone might have said this but if Aragorn hadn't gone to Minas Tirith by way of Rohan, he wouldn't have brought the Army of the Dead with him to Pelargir to fight the Corsairs. The Corsairs would have come to Minas Tirith and there would have been no hope. This is why Aragorn couldn't have gone to the Black Gate.

[Glirdan]

This is a matter that I've myself have been trying to figure out. Indeed, this is a mojor topic and lots of things would probably have been changed.

In my opinion, I think that Gandalf would probably have sent Pippin with Frodo and Sam and he would've given them directions. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would've went to Rohan and Boromir (see as Gandalf would have been there to stop Frodo from leaving and Boromir from dying) and Merry would've gone to Minas Tirith. Also, seeing as Glorfindel prophicised that "no man would kill the witch king", I think Eowyn would still have gone to Minas Tirith. As for the breaking of Saruman's staff breaking, I think Gandalf would still have enough power to break it and Theoden would probably still have died. Another thing, if Boromir did go back to Minas Tirith, Denethor would not have gone crazy.

But like I said, this stuff is only my opinion. Hope no gets offended.

Glirdy

[AragornII]

Yeah, but if Gandalf had gone to Minas Tirith with Boromir and Merry, he wouldn't have brought Eomer to Helm's Deep, and then Rohan would have been overrun and not come to the aid of Minas Tirith, and then Minas Tirith would have been overrun.
I'm curious as to why Gandalf would choose Pippin to go with Frodo and Sam and not Merry, seeing as how Merry is seen as the more sensible of the two. I would think that Gandalf would have sent Merry into Mordor and brought Pippin with him.

[Glirdan]

Excellent point Aragorn. I never really thought of it that way. Merry is the more sensible one out of the two, but he was the one who stabbed The King of the Wraiths in the back, which THEN allowed Eowyn to kill the Wraith. As for Gandalf going to Rohan instead, I'll agree with you on that.

Glirdy

[alatar]

To reverse thread for a moment, note that Gandalf had to 'leave' the Fellowship. Just as in the Hobbit where Bilbo suddenly finds himself bereft of Gandalf's guidance outside of Mirkwood, Frodo must lose the Wizard's help and so determine his own course. It's even stated in the FOTR that 'even if Gandalf were here, the decision would still rest with Frodo' (or something).

If Gandalf were to shepherd the ring and bearer to the Crack, what effort would it have been for Frodo knowing that the Wizard was always there to help - even if he never used the help. Frodo needed to think that he was on his own, and only reluctantly does he take Sam along with him - though Sam is still technically always following Frodo's lead.

Anyway, if Gandalf would have escaped the Bridge fall, not sure how the story would have progressed. Would he have experienced another fortunate accident? Assuming that the Fellowship hang out at Lothlorien for a while then continue down the Anduin (and that's already a big assumption), I assume that he would have accompanied Frodo to Mordor along with Sam.

Merry and Pippin would have protested (as in Rivendell), but either they would be orc luggage or sent off with the 'going to Gondor' group (note that the orcs make sure that this group goes to Rohan instead).

Aragorn, feeling no need to help Frodo as Gandalf was there, would go to Gondor with Boromir. Assume that Boromir was still itching with Ring-lust, he may have done the same thing as in the book, and ends up floating in a boat.

Gimli and Legolas would have followed Aragorn.

So assume that the FOTR are sitting around the fire, waiting for Frodo to decide whether he will go East or West. Boromir does his thing, and we have events just as in the book with the exception of Gandalf telling Aragorn to 'go after the hobbits while Sam and I look for Frodo.'

That would allow for the book to continue along the same lines for the Three Hunters, the Rag Tag and the Steward's Number 1 son.

Now you could have Gandalf fighting a rear guard action ("They brought a Roggie!") while pushing Frodo and Sam to escape across the River ("Fly, you fools!"). If he powers up, then he could go and help the Rohirrim against Saruman as Frodo is no longer in sight. This allows for Gollum to be the guide.

Or Gandalf, Frodo and Sam make it across and somewhere on the trip to the Crack Gandalf sells himself to aid Frodo's journey (Shelob, etc). Or, at the very end, Frodo puts on the Ring and subdues Gandalf. We could still have Gollum pursuit, and he could still definger Frodo.

This still leaves the problem of Saruman. Maybe Aragorn could use his healing abilities to exorcise Theoden. Treebeard contributes help without Wizard request, and in the Voice of Saruman you could substitute Aragorn for Gandalf (Strider receives the Elfstone from Galadriel that wards against babbling Maia?). Saruman doesn't get destaffed until after the war, yet is shut up in Orthanc impotent during (we see how useful his staff was during the Ent attack).

Anyway, that's my spin. Still think that it was essential to the story to lose Gandalf.

[Glirdan]

You know, I really like that thought alatar. Very interseting, probably the best thought out thing I've heard all day!!!!!!!! Seriously!! But what about your thoughts with Theoden dying and Ewoyn killing the King Wraith?

Glirdy

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

But what about your thoughts with Theoden dying and Ewoyn killing the King Wraith?

Thanks, I appreciate your kind words. Not sure exactly what your question means though. Theoden dying and Eowyn slaying WK in regards to what?

here's an interesting thought (not sure how logical it is tho):

what if b/c gandalf didn't die (and so didn't kill the balrog) the balrog came and destroyed lothlorien (and the fellowship)? the orcs came thru, and the elves defeated them, but what if they had a balrog with them? i don't think even galadriel could stand up to that

[Glirdan]

That's anegative thought bookworm, (no offense) but a really interesting theory. As to your question alatar, what I mean is in your really long post, you failed to mention what you thought of Ewoyn killing the WK and Theoden dying by the WK. I would like to know what happens to them in your theory.

Glirdy

[AragornII]

Also, alatar, if Gandalf had sent Aragorn to go after the hobbits while he and Sam go for Frodo, how does Boromir still die? Wouldn't either Aragorn die with him (and so ending the return of the king theme) or Boromir lives and he and Aragorn defeat the Orcs? Thne once again, nobody would help Rohan and they would be gone and Saruman would still be alive and well and then... you know, all that stuff I said before.

[alatar]

bookworm, I would like to see how Galadriel and the Galadhrim would fare against the Balrog. Note that the Balrog was there (possibly sleeping at times) since the War of Wrath. If it had an itching to take on Galadriel, then it had more than enough opportunities to do so, but evidence shows that it did not. On the another thread it was discussed regarding what the Balrog would have done if it had crossed the Bridge - pursue FOTR beyond Moria or halt at the first gate, content with driving the FOTR out.

Also note that Sauron never overthrew Lothlorien, and would need the Ring to be assured of victory against Galadriel.

Glirdy and Aragorn II: Aragorn need not die with Boromir, as he did not in the original story. Assume that Boromir comes back after his fight with Frodo, and when everyone goes crazy, Aragorn and Boromir again split. One dies, the other gets to go to Rohan.

Again assume somehow Aragorn can replace Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. Theoden/Eomer/Eowyn/Merry (and now Pippin) head for Minas Tirith while Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas do the same via Paths of the Dead.

One might think that the story could change in that Pippin is now a knight of Rohan and somehow like Merry accompanies the Rohirrim on their journey. As he then would not be a servant of Denethor (and Gandalf's with Frodo), we wouldn't get to peak in on what the Steward was doing.

At the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Merry and Pippin could aid Eowyn against the Witch King (assume that as he was going to enter the city the horns blow, and he goes off to fight the Rohirrim irregardless of Gandalf's presence - as some posters believe). This, however, would mean that we would lose Faramir - no one covers his retreat, but even if he survives that his dad burns him alive - which is bad for Eowyn unless she then took a liking for Imrahil.

Or...

Gandalf, when traveling with Frodo and Sam, sees the Witch King leave Minas Morgul, tells Frodo that he is needed elsewhere, and so proceeds the Army of Morgul Vale to Gondor. He could still save Faramir's retreat, face off against the WK at the Gate, but without Pippin to stop him, he would pursue the WK, possibly saving Theoden but Faramir gets cooked by his father.

Unless...Beregond, in a completely nutty moment, leaves his post and gets word to Gandalf, who then saves Faramir.

And as for Gollum - as in Moria, he is going to pursue the Ring wherever it goes, whether overtly or covertly, and so irregardless of Gandalf, Gollum will be there at the end.

This is getting so speculative that my brain is starting to ache...

[AragornII]

OK, assuming that they do the same arrangement that they did in the books, Aragorn and Sam go after Frodo, Legolas and Gimli go after Merry and Pippin, and Boromir goes for Merry and Pippin too, who would Gandalf go with? I would assume that he and Sam would go for Frodo, leaving Aragorn free to hunt for Merry and Pippin. So, if Aragorn decides to go alone, he still has a better chance of saving Boromir. Let's just say that Boromir has a better chance of living if Gandalf is there.

alatar, I don't think that Aragorn could have filled Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. He doesn't have the fast horse that can bring Eomer in time. He was essential in being at the actual battle, and couldn't have filled Gandalf's place as Eomer(or Erkenbrand)-bringer.

Another point... if Gandalf hadn't been in the forest to tell Treebeard that Merry and Pippin were hobbits what would have happened to them? They might have been killed, and then Saruman is still out there because Merry and Pippin never roused the Ents to attack Isengard. What would the consequences been of letting Saruman live? Possibly a revival of Isengard and just Helm's Deep later in the story.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by AragornII

Let's just say that Boromir has a better chance of living if Gandalf is there.

Agreed. However, maybe Gandalf would have seen Boromir's heart, and so tried to separate him from the temptation of the Ring even earlier. Maybe Gandalf, Sam and Frodo break the Fellowship in Lothlorien?

alatar, I don't think that Aragorn could have filled Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. He doesn't have the fast horse that can bring Eomer in time. He was essential in being at the actual battle, and couldn't have filled Gandalf's place as Eomer(or Erkenbrand)-bringer.

Again I would have to agree. Assume that I'm not 'in' the story but the author, then I could make it all work.

Another point... if Gandalf hadn't been in the forest to tell Treebeard that Merry and Pippin were hobbits what would have happened to them? They might have been killed, and then Saruman is still out there because Merry and Pippin never roused the Ents to attack Isengard. What would the consequences been of letting Saruman live? Possibly a revival of Isengard and just Helm's Deep later in the story.

Assume that Treebeard acts a little less hasty - and I think that you're confusing the movie with the books (where are we anyway? ). If memory serves, Treebeard sees Gandalf the White but does not speak with him, and so Treebeard makes his own judgment regarding the Hobbits. Again, without Gandalf, assume that Saruman is locked in Orthanc and Treebeard is at the door. If no one (i.e. Gandalf, Aragorn, etc) shows up after Isengard is flooded, then there's no Palantir for Aragorn, but except for Saruman communicating with Sauron, that part of the story doesn't change that much.

Isn't life better with Gandalf 'dying' on the Bridge?

You make valid points, and I appreciate your questions - I haven't worked this hard at spinning a tale since I had to explain to my parents why I was out all night!

[Glirdan]

You're probably right alatar, it would be better if Gandalf would have 'died' at the bridge, but it's cool just to speculate about this. And your right again, I haven't had to think this hard about stuff since I was in Science class last year!!!!!!!!

Glirdy

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

You're probably right alatar, it would be better if Gandalf would have 'died' at the bridge, but it's cool just to speculate about this.

Agreed, but not sure how much 'freedom' I have or should restrict myself to in regards to the story ("...and then they met the Tie-Dyed Wizard...").

And your right again, I haven't had to think this hard about stuff since I was in Science class last year!!!!!!!!

Cool on science. Learn how to be skeptical - how to test assumptions/hypotheses - as it will serve you well.

[Glirdan]

Thanks for the advice alatar! I'll take it!!! Tie dyed Wizard!! That's HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just hope other people have thoughts about this thread....

Glirdy

[AragornII]

I see what you mean Glirdan. It seems that there have been about three of us in this discussion. Would be nice to hear some new opinions(not that your's are bad).
Actually, alatar, I agree with you. I guess I did get the books mixed up with the movies. Sorry about that.

[Glirdan]

You know Aragorn, this is quite funny beecause there really IS just the three of us, and it's getting really annoying. Wish more people would join.

Glirdy

[wilwarin538]

You want other oppinions well.... I tried, but my computer froze and my nice long paragraph of an oppinion was lost. So know I must begin again.

I think everything would be very messed up if they still had Gandalf. Mostly bacause of Merry and Pipin's kidnapping. I believe Gandalf would have stopped it from happening, So Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would have probably gone to Gondor with Boro(who Gandalf saved) and Merry and Pippin would never have seen Treebeard, te Ents wouldn't have gotten involved, most likely Gandalf woudn't have had the power to over power Saruman and Theoden would have gotten hes entire country defeated. All would have been lost.

But that might just be me.

~*Wilwa*~

P.S. Oh yes, and just imagine what kind of havic the Balrog(winged of course ) would have caused if Gandalf hadn't defeated him.

[Glirdan]

YAYAYAYAY!!!!!!!! OTHER PEOPLE JOINED!!!!!!!! Very nice opion Wilwa (laugh out loud) I really like your opinion AND your probably right.

Glirdy
P.S. Need your help tomorow with homework.

[AragornII]

Ah, wilwarin538, who says the Balrog follows them out? He might just give up when they leave the mountain. Also, that doorway that they exit out of looked pretty small, but that can be fixed easily, especially by a Balrog Actually, come to think of it, that would be fairly interesting. But I think that alatar disussed that earlier in the thread. Good point though .

[alatar]

Originally Posted by AragornII

Ah, wilwarin538, who says the Balrog follows them out? He might just give up when they leave the mountain. Also, that doorway that they exit out of looked pretty small, but that can be fixed easily, especially by a Balrog Actually, come to think of it, that would be fairly interesting. But I think that alatar disussed that earlier in the thread. Good point though .

I actually argued in another post that the Balrog would have pursued the FOTR out of Moria - why would it have stopped? Sunlight would not have hindered it, and as Gandalf (another Maia) torqued him off, I think that the Balrog would have wanted to finish the job - he could have stopped pursuing Gandalf after they brought down Balin's Tomb, but did not.

[Glirdan]

All of your points are valid and very true. But I'd have to say that the Balrog would probably have followed them into Lorien where Gandalf would have had the aid of Galadriel who holds Nenya. So there would have been two elven rings of power, but Lorien would have been scorched to the ground.

[wilwarin538]

Well thats a little depressing Glirdy. I didn't actually mean that the Balrog followed them out just that he may have done something later on. But now that I think of it why would he have stopped??? The Balrog didn't look like the type to give up because the fellowship crossed a little bridge.

[AragornII]

And what would the Balrog done later on? It's not like people went to Moria after Sauron fell (or did they?), and the only reason the Balrog was even out was because the Fellowship went through Moria. Do you think that the Balrog would have died when the Ring was destroyed? I would think not, since Balrogs were created before the Ring was.
Speaking of Balrogs, have you ever felt that it was Frodo's fault that Gandalf fell? I mean, if Frodo hadn't chosen to go to Moria when they were on Caradhras, then Gandlaf would still be there. That's just something I thought about once .

[Lolidir]

it was Frodo's choice but at the same time he is still human. he was freezing on Caradhras and in all that snow, and sicnce it was that or Moria he chose what he thought better than freezing. he didnt know the danger of Moria and Gandalf didnt tell him so with his knowledge and the present situation he made the best choice he could.

my thought is that its Pippin fault that the Balrog and the Goblins were "awakened" so to speak. if he hadnt knocked the head down the well then all that might not have happened. so if Pippin hadnt done that then no Goblins and no Balrog then maybe they could have escaped Moria with out to much of a hastle. but as said before Tolkien wrote the book and everything happened for a reason. to ask the what if question make us think, but we will never know.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by AragornII

And what would the Balrog done later on? It's not like people went to Moria after Sauron fell (or did they?), and the only reason the Balrog was even out was because the Fellowship went through Moria.

Don't think so. The Balrog was awake during the Battle of Nanduhirion (Third Age). Also, I would assume that the Balrog may have helped destroy Balin's party. IMO the Balrog was again awake as Sauron was growing in power again, and was putting out the call to all things evil.

Speaking of Balrogs, have you ever felt that it was Frodo's fault that Gandalf fell? I mean, if Frodo hadn't chosen to go to Moria when they were on Caradhras, then Gandlaf would still be there. That's just something I thought about once .

Good thought. However, I think that in the books it's Gandalf who from the very first is the proponent for going through Moria. He follows Aragorn's lead to Caradhras, and when they are defeated by the mountain, Gandalf starts leading them to Moria. After the battle with the wolves, everyone's opinion regarding the Mines begins to change, as they would rather take a chance with the orcs that may or may not exist than with the wolves/wargs that are hunting them.

Aragorn warns Gandalf regarding his personal fate, yet Gandalf still chooses to go. Surely Frodo feels some guilt though.

Originally Posted by Lolidir

my thought is that its Pippin fault

In a way it was - Pippin surely felt responsible, and maybe this helped him 'grow up' a little - but on the other hand, Gandalf needed to fall, and so maybe if Pippin did not start things going then someone else would have had to pull the trigger, so to speak.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I remember reading that Gandalf thought going through Moria was a good idea in order to get the Fellowship out of sight of their enemies for awhile - being underground was a good place to hide, or would have been had things not gone wrong. (Problem is, I don't remember and haven't been able to find the source of that information by quickly skimming the various books - I'll add it if and when I do...) So the blame can't be put just on the hobbits.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Problem is, I don't remember and haven't been able to find the source of that information by quickly skimming the various books - I'll add it if and when I do...

Don't have my books, but I think that it's just after they complete 40 days out of Rivendell. Aragorn and Gandalf discuss Moria, and I think that Frodo gets a wiff. Also there might be more just before the wolves attack after Caradhras.

Gandalf, like most of the Fellowship (in the end, even Boromir) were to sacrifice themselves as needed so that Frodo could complete his mission. The object of the 'game' was to keep Frodo alive and out of the hands of the enemy; if they didn't, game over.

Gandalf understood this well.

[wilwarin538]

I remember reading that Gandalf thought going through Moria was a good idea in order to get the Fellowship out of sight of their enemies for awhile - being underground was a good place to hide, or would have been had things not gone wrong. (Problem is, I don't remember and haven't been able to find the source of that information by quickly skimming the various books - I'll add it if and when I do...) So the blame can't be put just on the hobbits.

Don't have my books, but I think that it's just after they complete 40 days out of Rivendell. Aragorn and Gandalf discuss Moria, and I think that Frodo gets a wiff. Also there might be more just before the wolves attack after Caradhras.

I found it!!! It goes like this:

Frodo overheard these words, and understood that Gandalf and Aragorn were continuing some debate that had begun long before. He listened anxiously.

....said Gandalf.'But there is another way, and not by the pass of Caradhras: the dark and secret way that we have spoken of'

'But let us not speak of it again! Not yet. Say nothing to the others, I bed, not until it is plain that there is no other way.'(that was Aragorn talking)

'We must decide before we go further,' answered Gandalf.

'Then let us weigh the matter in our minds, while the others rest and sleep,' said Aragorn.

fellowship pg. 279-280

[Elentari_Elbereth]

This is such an interesting thought, and one I have thought of often.

I know the Fellowship would probably not have split up as it did, and all the other events trailing from it would never have happened.
If gandalf never came to Rohan, Theoden would still be under control of Saruman, and the whole country may have been conqured... And if Aragorn never went through the Paths of the Dead, surely Gondor would be destroyed, and not to mention no help from Rohan.

My thoughts are, if the Fellowship and Gandalf stayed together and proceeded to Mordor, would they have been able to destroy the Ring before Sauron could destroy Man?
Could they travel through Mordor quicker as 9? or would it be more difficult because they could be spotted easier?

Also, would Gandalf still have became White even without dying?

[mormegil]

In reading all of these posts on the speculation we seem to be missing one important factor, and that is does everything happen in the same time frame?

What I mean is this--If Gandalf lived (no balrog following) they wouldn't have stayed in Lothlorien nearly as long as they did (around a month...correct?). They would have stayed to get rest and supplies but wouldn't have needed the healing from the passing of Gandalf. Therefore they would have set out sooner on their quest and that alone can change the whole dynamic.

Would they have actually encountered the orcs that captured Merry and Pippin?
Would Aragorn have come in contact with the Palantir and pit his will against Sauron, thus having Sauron wage war sooner?
If Sauron hadn't rushed his hand Faramir wouldn't have been attacked, Denethor wouldn't have attempted to burn him alive and Gondor wouldn't have been under seige at that time.

It could be asked what would happen if the fellowship had left Lothlorien earlier and were successful in destroying the ring (regardless of who actually went into Mordor) then what? Sauruman isn't much to deal with in all honesty. So that's my addition currently. Thanks for the fun topic.

[Essex]

if Gandalf had not fallen, the 'World of Men' would have been pretty much obliterated.

I put it to you that Gandalf would have definately followed Frodo and Sam, and that the fellowship would have beaten the forces of orcs at Parth Galen.

Therefore:

No merry and pippin starting the Ent's movement towards the destruction of Isengard.

No healing of Theoden.

No mustering of Erkendrand's forces and the Huorns at Helm's Deep

Therefoer Total annihilation of Rohan people

Therefore no Ride of the Rohirrim at Pellenor Fields

Therefore no defeat of the Witch King by Eoywn / Merry

No trip by Aragorn to the Coast to get more troops

Therefore probable wipe out of Gondor's forces

No argument regarding the Witch King's demise between the two orc hunters who would have probably tracked the hobbits down.

Fight between the orcs and the hobbits (and Gandalf)

Now, tall order here, but the orcs possibly could have won this and got the Ring, and therefore END OF STORY.

But if the hobnits and gandalf did survive, then there wouldn't be much for Frodo, Sam and Gandalf to come back to.......if they could make it back through the lava pits once Mount Doom exploded after the Ring was thrown in. No Eagles around Mordor to give them a lift.......