Theoden and left-handedness - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

thalioniathiel · 01-15-2003, 03:00 AM

I noticed that in The Two Towers, Theoden (Bernard Hill) grasps his sword and holds it with his left hand. I did a quick google search but couldn't find info on whether Bernard is left-handed or if the Theoden of the book is left-handed. does anyone know?

Tenduriel · 01-15-2003, 06:56 AM

i don't know about Théodens lefthandness, as it is never named in LotR, nor in any other book of Tolkien I've read. what i do know is that I am lefthanded too, which makes i really have a terrible handwriting but (so it is said) a good eye for art. but some think lefthanded people are touched by fairies on the moment they were born, and that would be the reason why the catholic church has made it so disputed: they have, for many 100s of years, forbidden people to write lefthanded. and it is said they did it because they knew that it would hinder them whilst growing up, so that the talents that were given to them would never be able to show up.

but of course, this is all just old women's talk (like Boromir said about the misteries of the wood of Fangorn), and we shouldn't pay attention to it!

greetings!

Jurion · 01-15-2003, 07:16 AM

I don't really know whether Theoden is lefthanded or if Hill is lefthanded. But I too have heard many tales about children being hindered from writing lefthanded. The strangest thing I have heard is that the lefthand of the child in question would be tied behind his/her back and then the child would be forced to write righthanded.

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-15-2003, 08:26 AM

Please keep this discussion on-topic, concerning Tolkien's works only, not a general exchange of information on left-handedness. Thank you!

thalioniathiel · 01-15-2003, 08:15 PM

thanks for your replies! the reason I noticed Theoden grasping his sword in his left hand is because I am left-handed and anytime left-handedness is portrayed in a movie, I want to find out if the actor is left-handed or the character is supposed to be left-handed. I thought it would be cool if Tolkien actually wrote in a left-handed character. my google search didn't give me any info at all, except that some toy versions of Grima and Aragorn and a Rohirrim carry their swords in their left hand. I would think that someone as skilled as Aragorn should be able to use a sword and other weapons either right or left handed, and I suppose Theoden would be able to also...but since I wouldn't think a right-handed swordsman would favor his left hand, and since Tolkien doesn't mention anything about it, I suppose I will just have to conclude that Bernard Hill is a leftie.

Carrûn · 01-15-2003, 08:59 PM

I dunno, but I have heard that in history even those who were left handed would fight right handed. Why? So that their shield would cover their heart. Maybe its a rumor, but I believe it to be pretty accurate, although I wish I could find my source again.

thalioniathiel · 01-16-2003, 12:31 AM

that makes sense. also, I would think that for the sake of uniformity, everyone would carry their swords and shields in the same respective hands. especially if lefthandedness was much less tolerated in general anyway. which makes Theoden's left-handed sword-wielding even more puzzling. <scratches head>

Lindril Arvilya · 01-18-2003, 09:36 PM

Another reason: back in the day, they held their swords in the right for defence. If you end up battling on a spiral staircase, then you'll be able to wield your sword but your opponent will hit the wall. Unless, of course, your architect was a leftie too. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Bill Ferny · 01-18-2003, 10:09 PM

Thomas Carlyle posited the theory that right-handed warriors in medieval times had an advantage over left-handed warriors because they could hold their shields over their hearts. This according to Carlyle explained why there were more right handed people than left handed.

This argument, of course, was a joke. It was a tongue in cheek comment aimed at Darwin with whom Carlyle had some scholarly disagreements.

There is no practical reason why, using medieval weapons, a rightie would have any kind of advantage over a southpaw. Dynamically it would give both combatants the advantage of attacking the unshielded side directly, which means they would both have to do a lot of dodging, jumping and wiggling to avoid blows. Shields and swords are in construction ambidextrous, mainly due to their simplicity. In all illustrations that I can think of, the warriors are using swords, axes, maces, or spears in their right hands. Maybe because warriors didn’t want to have to completely exhaust themselves every time they fought [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. But I think rather that this was probably due to the predominate medieval attitude toward left handedness. The Latin word for left is “sinister”. That says enough, ey?

***Sharkû*** · 01-18-2003, 10:43 PM

Folks, don't ignore what Estelyn said.

Melephelwen · 01-19-2003, 06:28 AM

I don't think Tolkien has wrote anything about left-handedness of his characters (at least I haven't read it yet) but Bernard Hill is left-handed. (You see him writing with his left hand in Titanic). And has anyone else noticed, that also Isildur is left-handed?

doug*platypus · 01-20-2003, 03:36 AM

So in the movies, Théoden and Isildur bat left-handed? I thought that was more Gandalf's style.

The only instance I can recall of handedness being discussed in the books is in referral to Maedhros, where he used his left hand after he had no right hand. Second choice. By the omission of any other references to lefties, we can suppose either that Tolkien thought it was an unimportant minor detail, or that noone was left-handed. In Roman times left-handed people were believed to be evil. Remember as Ned Flanders says, sinister is Latin for left-handed.

Raefindel · 01-20-2003, 03:00 PM

I know nothing of archery, but I remember someone saying that Legolas used his bow like a leftie, as well. Any archers out there?

thalioniathiel · 01-21-2003, 07:13 PM

Quote:

but Bernard Hill is left-handed. (You see him writing with his left hand in Titanic).

aha! that is the sort of info I was looking for! I didn't notice it myself, although I usually notice stuff like that. thanks! it explains a lot!

Quote:

And has anyone else noticed, that also Isildur is left-handed?

interesting! I didn't notice that one, either, but now that you mention it, I can picture in my mind that scene where he takes up his father's sword and Sauron steps on it...it is on his left side. weird that I never noticed it after watching FotR so many times!

Frodo Baggins · 01-22-2003, 07:36 AM

Well now, Raefindel. My mother is right handed, but she told me that when shee took archery in school, she shot better left-handedly. (I have never seen her shoot, she's just told me this.) So maybe even right handed people do things better with their left hands.

Peri · 01-22-2003, 02:23 PM

Wow. I had no idea about all that stuff about being left-handed. I'm left-handed as well, and I remember my mom always trying to teach me to write with my right when I was young.
Apropos, maybe Bernard is left-handed and that's why he took the sword in his left. It is never mentioned in the books.

Melephelwen · 01-26-2003, 01:01 PM

(Please notice that the icon is also left-handed [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] )

Me being right-handed I still notice left-handedness (wishing to be so myself) and I have found quite a list of left-handed people/actors whatsoever, but that's not on topic, so never mind.

I think Tolkien in not mentioning left-handedness... I don't know. I would figure him taking this stuff serious (I mean, he describes flowers down to smallest detail!) and if he thought 'everybody' were left-handed, he would probably emntion it somewhere. Anybody read something in his Letters or HoME?
Btw, does anybody know if Tolkien was left-handed? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

01-15-2003, 03:00 AM	#1
thalioniathiel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 34	Theoden and left-handedness I noticed that in The Two Towers, Theoden (Bernard Hill) grasps his sword and holds it with his left hand. I did a quick google search but couldn't find info on whether Bernard is left-handed or if the Theoden of the book is left-handed. does anyone know?

01-15-2003, 06:56 AM	#2
Tenduriel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Erreseä (temporary stay: Belgium) Posts: 37	i don't know about Théodens lefthandness, as it is never named in LotR, nor in any other book of Tolkien I've read. what i do know is that I am lefthanded too, which makes i really have a terrible handwriting but (so it is said) a good eye for art. but some think lefthanded people are touched by fairies on the moment they were born, and that would be the reason why the catholic church has made it so disputed: they have, for many 100s of years, forbidden people to write lefthanded. and it is said they did it because they knew that it would hinder them whilst growing up, so that the talents that were given to them would never be able to show up. but of course, this is all just old women's talk (like Boromir said about the misteries of the wood of Fangorn), and we shouldn't pay attention to it! greetings! __________________ navaer! 5r#`C6R (Goodbye) O mór henion i dhû - Ely siriar, êl síla - Ai! Aniron Undómiel - Tiro! Êl eria e môr. - I 'lîr en êl luitha 'uren. - Ai! Aniron

01-15-2003, 08:26 AM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,499	Please keep this discussion on-topic, concerning Tolkien's works only, not a general exchange of information on left-handedness. Thank you! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

01-15-2003, 08:59 PM	#6
Carrûn Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Behind you, counting to 3 Posts: 234	I dunno, but I have heard that in history even those who were left handed would fight right handed. Why? So that their shield would cover their heart. Maybe its a rumor, but I believe it to be pretty accurate, although I wish I could find my source again. __________________ "Dic, hospes, Spartae, nos te hic vidisse iacentes dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur."

01-18-2003, 09:36 PM	#8
Lindril Arvilya Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars Posts: 332	Another reason: back in the day, they held their swords in the right for defence. If you end up battling on a spiral staircase, then you'll be able to wield your sword but your opponent will hit the wall. Unless, of course, your architect was a leftie too. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!

01-15-2003, 07:16 AM	#3
Jurion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 85	I don't really know whether Theoden is lefthanded or if Hill is lefthanded. But I too have heard many tales about children being hindered from writing lefthanded. The strangest thing I have heard is that the lefthand of the child in question would be tied behind his/her back and then the child would be forced to write righthanded.

01-15-2003, 08:15 PM	#5
thalioniathiel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 34	thanks for your replies! the reason I noticed Theoden grasping his sword in his left hand is because I am left-handed and anytime left-handedness is portrayed in a movie, I want to find out if the actor is left-handed or the character is supposed to be left-handed. I thought it would be cool if Tolkien actually wrote in a left-handed character. my google search didn't give me any info at all, except that some toy versions of Grima and Aragorn and a Rohirrim carry their swords in their left hand. I would think that someone as skilled as Aragorn should be able to use a sword and other weapons either right or left handed, and I suppose Theoden would be able to also...but since I wouldn't think a right-handed swordsman would favor his left hand, and since Tolkien doesn't mention anything about it, I suppose I will just have to conclude that Bernard Hill is a leftie.

01-16-2003, 12:31 AM	#7
thalioniathiel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 34	that makes sense. also, I would think that for the sake of uniformity, everyone would carry their swords and shields in the same respective hands. especially if lefthandedness was much less tolerated in general anyway. which makes Theoden's left-handed sword-wielding even more puzzling. <scratches head>

01-18-2003, 10:09 PM	#9
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Thomas Carlyle posited the theory that right-handed warriors in medieval times had an advantage over left-handed warriors because they could hold their shields over their hearts. This according to Carlyle explained why there were more right handed people than left handed. This argument, of course, was a joke. It was a tongue in cheek comment aimed at Darwin with whom Carlyle had some scholarly disagreements. There is no practical reason why, using medieval weapons, a rightie would have any kind of advantage over a southpaw. Dynamically it would give both combatants the advantage of attacking the unshielded side directly, which means they would both have to do a lot of dodging, jumping and wiggling to avoid blows. Shields and swords are in construction ambidextrous, mainly due to their simplicity. In all illustrations that I can think of, the warriors are using swords, axes, maces, or spears in their right hands. Maybe because warriors didn’t want to have to completely exhaust themselves every time they fought [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. But I think rather that this was probably due to the predominate medieval attitude toward left handedness. The Latin word for left is “sinister”. That says enough, ey? __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

01-18-2003, 10:43 PM	#10
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Folks, don't ignore what Estelyn said.

01-19-2003, 06:28 AM	#11
Melephelwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: the Middle of Nowhere Posts: 291	I don't think Tolkien has wrote anything about left-handedness of his characters (at least I haven't read it yet) but Bernard Hill is left-handed. (You see him writing with his left hand in Titanic). And has anyone else noticed, that also Isildur is left-handed? __________________ We're all following a strange melody We're all summoned by a tune We're following the piper And we dance beneath the moon

01-20-2003, 03:36 AM	#12
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	So in the movies, Théoden and Isildur bat left-handed? I thought that was more Gandalf's style. The only instance I can recall of handedness being discussed in the books is in referral to Maedhros, where he used his left hand after he had no right hand. Second choice. By the omission of any other references to lefties, we can suppose either that Tolkien thought it was an unimportant minor detail, or that noone was left-handed. In Roman times left-handed people were believed to be evil. Remember as Ned Flanders says, sinister is Latin for left-handed. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-20-2003, 03:00 PM	#13
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	I know nothing of archery, but I remember someone saying that Legolas used his bow like a leftie, as well. Any archers out there? __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

01-22-2003, 07:36 AM	#15
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Well now, Raefindel. My mother is right handed, but she told me that when shee took archery in school, she shot better left-handedly. (I have never seen her shoot, she's just told me this.) So maybe even right handed people do things better with their left hands. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

01-22-2003, 02:23 PM	#16
Peri Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 124	Wow. I had no idea about all that stuff about being left-handed. I'm left-handed as well, and I remember my mom always trying to teach me to write with my right when I was young. Apropos, maybe Bernard is left-handed and that's why he took the sword in his left. It is never mentioned in the books. __________________ "Ah, but I'll begowk ye there!" cried the gentleman. "Play me false, and I'll play you cunning."

01-26-2003, 01:01 PM	#17
Melephelwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: the Middle of Nowhere Posts: 291	(Please notice that the icon is also left-handed [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ) Me being right-handed I still notice left-handedness (wishing to be so myself) and I have found quite a list of left-handed people/actors whatsoever, but that's not on topic, so never mind. I think Tolkien in not mentioning left-handedness... I don't know. I would figure him taking this stuff serious (I mean, he describes flowers down to smallest detail!) and if he thought 'everybody' were left-handed, he would probably emntion it somewhere. Anybody read something in his Letters or HoME? Btw, does anybody know if Tolkien was left-handed? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ We're all following a strange melody We're all summoned by a tune We're following the piper And we dance beneath the moon