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Old 06-16-2004, 01:23 PM   #81
Firefoot
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I wonder why the Prologue could not have just been part of the Appendices?
From Concerning Hobbits:
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This book is largely concerned with Hobbits, and from its pages a reader may discover much of their character and a little of their history. (...) Many, however, may wish to know more about this remarkable people from the outset, while some may not possess the earlier book. For such readers a few notes on the more important points are here collected from Hobbit-lore, and the first adventure is briefly recalled.
So, in short, I think that JRRT's purpose in making this part of the prologue and not the appendices is to give readers a background on hobbits, which I think is especially helpful for some people who, for example, just picked the book up off the shelf randomly. For people who are familiar with the books, the information would be just as helpful/interesting in the appendices, but I think that Tolkien wanted to give people some background so that they wouldn't be completely confused (especially, as he points out, for people who have not read The Hobbit). I know for a fact, however, that one of my friends skipped the prologue and then went back to read it after finishing the book, and found it much more interesting because she had a better idea of what it was talking about.
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Old 06-16-2004, 02:05 PM   #82
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Perhaps it isn't that hobbits are innately liars or truthful, it is just as I said earlier. That hobbits are like humans in all but size. Humans lie, some more than others.

If I had been in Bilbo's place, I would have probably lied about the Ring when I was first questioned. That doesn't mean that I am a pathological liar, any more than it makes Bilbo or any other hobbit.

If they did indeed send archers, perhaps they were, like mentioned before, simply overlooked.

If they did not, well then, they were lying. But this doesn't make the Shire full of thieves and liars. It makes whoever wrote the book or spread the rumor a liar, or perhaps he just had bad information. Maybe the troop of archers got halfway and chickened out, or got killed, or just came back and never told anyone.
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Old 06-16-2004, 02:39 PM   #83
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Orofaniel -- I don't think that the Shire is terribly 'flawed'. I would live there in a second, given the option; but I do think that after a very short while I would begin to go mad looking for the kind of discussion and inquisitiveness that characterises communities like the BD! I would also chafe against the provicialism of the place and await with great joy the arrival of the occaisional visitor from outside for a piece of news. I'm also not so sure I would enjoy the rather strict class system, no matter how benign it might be.
.
If you lived in the Shire in the first place, and didn't have any other "home", then I have difficulties understanding why you'd go mad. But if you, as a human of today, lived in the Shire, I can see what you mean. I think that's the human nature; to long for an idyllic place, and then afterwards, maybe, flee from it as you seek something more. I don't think you'll only find that in the fictional world; but also in the real world. I wonder how many times I've been looking for something I feel is missing in my everyday life. Not only that but also have I longed for other people for communication, opinions etc. I’m not sure if my point is getting trough here though, but this is the best way I can explain it.

(I'm way off topic here Sorry)

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Old 06-16-2004, 05:40 PM   #84
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So, in short, I think that JRRT's purpose in making this part of the prologue and not the appendices is to give readers a background on hobbits, which I think is especially helpful for some people who, for example, just picked the book up off the shelf randomly.
This may just be me, but when I pick a book randomly off the shelf I dive right into part of the story. The introduction and/or prologue are the last places I look.

However, again, that may just be me.
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Old 06-16-2004, 08:38 PM   #85
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Kuruharan,

I myself rarely read the prologue, and yes I typically read the appendices last. I suggested to my nephew who hadn't read the books, but wanted to see the movie, to read the prologue just to get the background of the story. He never heard of LOTR until the movies came out so instead of telling him read the book before you go see the movie just read the prologue, skim through it, and get the plot down before you see the movie. I agree it's really up to the person, whether to read the prologue or not. (My ultimate plan succeeded, I got my nephew reading the books instead of just being a movie person) lol.
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Old 06-17-2004, 07:29 AM   #86
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I think that's the human nature; to long for an idyllic place, and then afterwards, maybe, flee from it as you seek something more
Aye, but alas 'tis also human nature to see things differently than others. My idyllic place would contain a great many flaws, because as a human, I contain flaws. I would be bored out of my mind in the "perfect world", because not only would there be no trouble for me to get myself into and out of, I would also be forced by the perfection to see more of my own defects. My ideal place would have a few "perfect" parts, and then a few harsher aspects, to present a challenge to myself. And I daresay that even after my idyllic world became, to me, perfect, there would still be others to say "I don't like this particular part of it."
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Old 06-17-2004, 08:28 AM   #87
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Feanor, great point. A few lunkheads like Ted Sandyman and greedy busybodies like Lobelia Sackville-Baggins keep things interesting without being really dangerous. You've got to have something to rebel against, even in an idealized society. Otherwise you'll end up bored stiff. I hope Squatter won't mind if I borrow a quote from one of his old posts (from a thread which, incidentally, is good reading on its own hook):
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Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
...I'll throw in my lot with the "Shire as an idealised society" thesis: I can't imagine living in, for example, Gondor or Lothlorien; Rohan would be a good place to visit for a couple of years if you like mead-halls, riding competitions and Saxons being Saxons; but the Shire is a comfortable nostalgic fantasy of rural England as it should have been, flawless in its small imperfections.
Everybody likes being the mischievous rascal who bucks social conventions -- which is what the heroes of Hobbit-centric stories always turn out to be, to one degree or another. It's an odd but true paradox, I think, that "ideal" includes "conflict" and "challenge".

Kuru and Boromir88 -- different strokes, I guess. I love forewords, prologues, afterwords, footnotes, appendices, what have you. I live for that stuff, especially when it gives a glimpse inside the writing process. Some of my favorite bits from my favorite authors are from fore- or afterwords.
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Old 06-17-2004, 10:16 AM   #88
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I did not mean to imply that I don't like introductions, appendices, etc. Once I have purchased a book (assuming that the book is worthwhile) I'll read everything in it.

I enjoy the appendices in LOTR almost more than anything because they are so historical (and I do love my history).

It is just that if I am making my first acquaintance with a book (say picked up from the shelf in a bookstore) I'll almost always dive into the middle of the story hoping to find something good. I never read the Intro before I get a book. (This was not how I made my acquaintance with Tolkien, by the way).

Of course, I'm kind of weird because I have been known to read an entire series of books backwards or start in the middle and read to the end and then start at the beginning. This naturally leads to a great amount of confusion about the story.

Perhaps I need to mend my ways.

Anyway,

In a loose comparison between the Shire and our world, it strikes me as odd (sort of) that people can be dissatisfied with an imperfect world and at the same time be dissatisfied with a perfect world. In an imperfect world there is too much suffering and hardship and in a perfect world it is too boring. It sounds like we are doomed to dissatisfaction.

(Let's see if that comment stirs things up a little. )
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Old 06-17-2004, 01:18 PM   #89
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In a loose comparison between the Shire and our world, it strikes me as odd (sort of) that people can be dissatisfied with an imperfect world and at the same time be dissatisfied with a perfect world. In an imperfect world there is too much suffering and hardship and in a perfect world it is too boring. It sounds like we are doomed to dissatisfaction.
I don't think that is quite the case. At least, I hope not. Many humans (and hobbits) would prefer excitement at certain times and peace and qiuet at others. It has to do with the stages of one's life, in addition to your upbringing and environment.

Example: Bilbo. He was raised in part by his Took mother and her relations, which gave him a strong desire, and eventually a push, to go on his adventure.

Of course, we can't ignore his Baggins side either, because what does he do every time he has a free moment? He thinks about his armchair in front of a roaring fire, and eggs and bacon.

(Not that I blame him. Cram doesn't sound too appetizing.)

But after he gets back home, he doesn't settle down and try to regain his neighbor's respect. He starts going on long hikes, visiting elves and dwarves and rangers.

He does this because he has had a taste of something more, something different than what he had growing up all his life.

So he's not totally dissatisfied with the Shire, it is just like he said:

"...I am very fond of it, and of all the dear Shire; but I think I need a holiday."

So while comfort is all very good and well in its own way, adventure is a lovely thing too.
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Old 06-17-2004, 03:17 PM   #90
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On the topic of hobbits being liars, I agree that hobbits are not morally superior to humans, and that they are no more likely to lie than anyone else is. I also remembered that when Frodo dissapeared in the Prancing Pony he lied and said "I haven't dissapeared," then made up somethiong to explain why he suddenly went missing.

Although now I see why the Prologue isn't part of the appendices, it certainly makes more sense when it's read after reading the book. I heard once that maybe Tolkien did it like that so that once you've finished reading LotR you go back to see what was in that Prologue, and thus you're enticed to read the book all over again... . That actually did happen to me once.


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Old 06-17-2004, 03:38 PM   #91
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The quest was successful, and the Dragon that guarded the hoard was destroyed. Yet, though before all was won the Battle of Five Armies was fought, and Thorin was slain, and many deeds of renown were done, the matter would scarcely have concerned later history, or earned more than a note in the long annals of the Third Age, but for an 'accident' by the way.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I'm sure Gandalf doesn't agree. I remember him saying (can't think of where it was right off hand, maybe someplace in UT) that he wanted to get rid of Smaug badly because Sauron could've used the dragon "with terrible effect".

In Appendix A of ROTK Gandalf says-
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Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valor of Durin's folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree."
According to Gandalf, his meeting with Thorin and the journey to Lonely Mountain that resulted might've stopped the entire Northern section of Middle-Earth from being overrun by evil.

So it seems to me that Thorin's trek and the subsequent death of Smaug definitely concerned later history and was worth more than a note in the annals of the Third Age, in spite of what the text in the Prologue says.
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Old 06-17-2004, 07:14 PM   #92
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So while comfort is all very good and well in its own way, adventure is a lovely thing too.
It kind of sounds like a “grass is always greener” effect, in a way.

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So it seems to me that Thorin's trek and the subsequent death of Smaug definitely concerned later history and was worth more than a note in the annals of the Third Age, in spite of what the text in the Prologue says.
So, now we have the matter of the Long Winter and this as little inconsistencies in the Prologue. I’d speculate that he was trying to emphasize the importance of finding the Ring in comparison to everything else.

We need to start keeping a list.
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Old 06-17-2004, 07:43 PM   #93
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galadriel'smaiden wrote in post # 77.

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What I enjoyed about The Prologue was how Mr. Tolkein described humans. The Big People
This has unlocked for me much of what we have come to discuss in this particular thread. The Prologue introduces us to the Hobbits and walks us through their world, their way of existence, their history, their nature and their land. But wit this reference to "us" as 'outsiders' (we are "The Big People" to the Hobbits), he quite cunningly turns the whole thing around on us. We read the Prologue thinking that we are learning about Hobbits, when really what we are learning about is ourselves. The Prologue creates the world of the Hobbits and we enter into that world; at first, it is foreign and other, so we look at it and try to learn about it -- we try to be objective and so see the Hobbits 'as they really are'. But as we go further into this other world/reality it gives us a perspective back onto our own world. The more we learn about the Shire, the more we reflect on how it is and is not like the world we live in -- which gets us thinking about and evaluating our world.

I'm only just now connecting this to Tolkien's elaboration of the idea of "Recovery" from "On Fairy-Stories" when he argues that fantasy is able to re-present the 'real world' to us in such a way that we notice things that we've too long taken for granted.

This is why, I think, the Prologue comes at the beginning. It literally puts us into the right 'frame of mind' by getting us to think about not just the world he's created, but how that world is related to, reflects upon, comments upon our own world. As we learn more and more about Hobbits, and how they are like and unlike us, we learn more and more about ourselves. When the story gets underway, then, we are 'primed' to regard the rest of the world that the Hobbits move through in the same way.
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Old 06-17-2004, 08:07 PM   #94
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Just going back to the beginning of the Prologue. I just have to say that when I first read the book, the part where he talks about the hobbits being "an unobtrusive people", "more numerous formerly than they are today" struck me because it caused me to question myself (are there really hobbits?), and it also caused me to take this as a more real piece of literature. Now I know hobbits don't exsist, but I was amazed that he was actually writing this from the point of it being truth. I had never really seen anything like this in a fantasy book.

This also can apply to where he talks about the third age being long gone, and the lands of the world being changed. This also reinforces this not being a work of fiction, but more being a history instead. It also again makes you think.
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Old 06-19-2004, 11:50 PM   #95
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This is why, I think, the Prologue comes at the beginning. It literally puts us into the right 'frame of mind' by getting us to think about not just the world he's created, but how that world is related to, reflects upon, comments upon our own world.
Interesting thought, Fordim. However, I found when I first read the Prologue I was wondering who 'Merry' and 'Aragorn' were and why they had weird names. In a way, it gives away the plot a bit but it certainly does draw us into the story before we actually start reading it.

On a side note, in the notes it says-

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It is not known the day Celeborn finally sought for the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-Earth.
(Forgive me if the quote isn't entirely correct; I don't have the book on me now)

What about Treebeard and Tom Bombadil? Or did Tolkien mean that when he went there were no Elves who lived in the First Age? Or could it be that the answer is that Treebeard and Tom Bombadil passed away (died or left Middle-Earth), since 'a time had come for the decline of all other speaking-peoples in Middle-Earth'? If the first possible is answer is correct, that would mean Glorfindel would have had to have left Middle-Earth, assuming he is the same Glorfindel of Gondolin, which I won't touch on as it isn't relevant. Your thoughts?
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Old 06-20-2004, 12:36 AM   #96
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Fingolfin that is an interesting observance

I know that he means that there was no longer in Middle Earth any elves from the first age when Celeborn left. But, yes, what about Treebeard and Tom?
Maybe this relates to the elves really being the only recorders who recorded what was going on all over Middle Earth in the first age. Treebeard and Tom never really wrote anything down, they were really only concered about what was going on directly around them, and I think that they wouldn't really care to ever write anything down. I highly doubt that they died. Especially because I don't exactly see how Tom in particular could die? Treebeard, yeah, probably has more of a chance because he actually ages. But Tom, does he even age?
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Old 06-20-2004, 01:48 AM   #97
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But Tom, does he even age?
Probably not. The Istari, who are also Ainur, aged with the burden of their labours in the form of old men, but we know Tom isn't one of the Istari. As to the aging of immortals, I can't really answer, but it is interesting what Tolkien meant by that comment about Celeborn.
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Old 06-20-2004, 02:40 AM   #98
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There are some interesting points made by Christopher Garbowski as regards the socieites of Middle Earth:

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In the Hobbit, along with its residents, Tolkien discovered the Shire, the almost archetypal small homeland, a geographical unit that adorns the entire Middle Earth of the thrid Age from the Grey Havens to Fangorn Forest & beyond. The geographical distances may be reminiscent of Europe ... but the social geography is based on what the Germans call Heimat ... Large as the Kingdom of Gondor is, it actually constitutes a federation of small states rather than a uniform one. The only large state can be said to be Mordor, which is centralistic to say the least ... Milosz writes that 'in comparison with the state, the homeland is organic, rooted in the past, always small, it warms the heart, it is as close as one's own body' ...Different homelands introduce genuine diversity, while the large state, whether benign or threatening, imposes uniformity....

Not that the small homeland is without faults. A well known example is the all too familiar division of orbis-interior/orbis-exterior, where those who are from outside the community are frequently the unwanted other, to be treated with suspicion ... Even within the Shire there is a mistrust of citizens from far flung parts; Breelanders consider hobbits from Hobbiton strange & vice versa ... Much of the conflict between Elves & Dwarves can be considered along this orbis-interior/orbis-exterior fault line.

A journey develops, or at least requires, openness & brings withit the risk of change ... The journey (in LotR) often leads from one small homeland to another. The heimats of the other are the repositories of values that often challenge cherished beliefs of the traveller, & lead to an awareness unavailable from the limited perspective of home ... Dialogue is infact a precondition for the survival of the free peoples who must overcome their isolation if they are to adequately deal with the danger facing them. (quoted in Rosebury 'Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon')
So, we have Tolkien offering us a vision of a world of smal, effectively self contained communities, which all the samemust interact with each other if they are to survive. So he seems to be condemning the attitude of the Shire Hobbits, not because they have a self contained, self supporting, society, a 'heimat' - which is good, but because they have shunned all interaction with 'outsiders'. 'United (as a collection of small, autonomous, communities) we stand. Divided (cut off from other 'heimats', letting them go hang) we fall.

This, as Rosebury points out, reflects Tolkien's political stance - 'anarchism'. The nation state (even if 'benevolent') threatens, & will ultimately destroy, the Heimat - 'the homeland (which) is organic, rooted in the past, always small, it warms the heart, it is as close as one's own body'. Its summed up, perhaps, in Merrry & Pippin's conversation in the Houses of Healing:

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'Dear me! We Tooks & Brandybucks, we can't live long on the heights.'

'No,' said Merry. 'I can't at any rate. But at least, Pippin, we can now see them, & honour them. It is vest to love first what you are fitted to love, I suppose: you must start somewhere & have some roots, & the soil of the Shire is deep. Still there are things deeper & higher, & not a gaffer could tend his garden in what he calls peace but for them, whether he knows about them or not. I am glad thatt I know about them, a little.'
The end of the book seems to present us with the ideal - the Shire is not cut off totally - the hobbits have been brought into the world, played a part, & are acknowledged by the Great, yet the Heimat remains.
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Old 06-21-2004, 01:28 AM   #99
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the thing and the whole of the thing...

Prologue

My dear Bagginses and Boffins, and my dear Tooks and Brandybucks, and Grubbs, and Chubbs, and Burrowses, and Hornblowers, and Bolgers, Bracegirdles, Goodbodies, Brockhouses and Proudfoots

And I hope I’m not too late, as week dedicated to each part is nearly over…

Nonetheless…

Having in mind lot of what preceeding posts are concerned with, I’d dare your scorn and say that this particluar discussion is mostly engaged in details, and leaves the thing and the whole of the thing aside. And he who breaks the thing to find… well, you know what said 'he' is up to. After all, what is the prologue about? True, we have author’s statement that it is ‘mostly about hobbits’, but should we take such statements at their face value? I believe not, and I’ll be explaining why in a short while

Any time I reread the prologue (as I’ve done it yesterday, what with it being Sunday and blessed day for one’s freelance activities, reading included), three things inevitably pop up to mind.

1. It includes a mighty load of things not essential to the plot whatsoever
2. Things it concerns (i.e., hobbits and their habitat) feel essentially English
3. Such a prologue is unprecedented to my reading memory

One at time than.

Entry #1: I can’t help remembering A.P.Chekhov, Russian playwright with his saying: “if there is a rifle on the wall in act 1, it should be firing off at least in act 3”. And all the books I’ve read usually follow this scheme up neatly. I.e., there usually are no unneeded things. Tolkien, even apart from prologue, which is the treasury of such 'things unrequired for the development of the plot', is placing them here an there (wait till wer reach Bombadil, heh!). Tolkien is hinting to older history of the world he brings us into, and does that not only via ancient and neatly worked out names (which feel solid even for the unconscious), old legends and bits of untranlsated poetry, but by means of those unrequired things, those Hornblowers and Bracegirdles, which are completely unneeded, but form a background, some feeling on the border of one’s consicousness, that there is more to it than the plot we are about to read, that plot is just a tiny friction of the whole world. All of that is forming first in the prologue, where the walls are covered up in rifles and guns of all sorts, which, apart from firing, never make later appearence at all!


Entry #2: I haven’t been to England ever. (To be honest, most westward of my journeys took me as far as Poland). So, the mental image I’ve got of England must be blurred and improper. But what strikes me right away, is how much English Shire feels. Apart from chronology, and Marcho-Blanco/Hengist-Horsa connotations indicated by Squatter, there is a feel of England in there (even for a man, (or especially for a man?) who’s mental image is formed by Donald Bisset, Edward Lear, Arthut Conan Doil ,Alan Alexander Miln and their set). And hobbits feel modern, too, quite apart frome the rest of the book, where guys in armour wonder about with great swords and do ‘deeds’. They are spatially and temporary out of place. Deliberate anachronisms, I daresay, what with all their 'waistkins', pipeweed, five'o'clocks and nearly modern social system. Now that is done on purpose, I believe, and strongly on purpose. Tolkien revealed part of his mind in his “On Fairy Stories” essey:

Quote:
Stories that are actually concerned primarily with “fairies,” that is with creatures that might also in modern English be called “elves,” are relatively rare, and as a rule not very interesting. Most good “fairy-stories” are about the adventures of men in the Perilous Realm or upon its shadowy marches.
(emphasis Tolkien’s)

Now that is very true. But the truth can be extended to include humans that are alienated from us by depths of time. I believe that ‘modern’ and ‘English’ hobbits are necessary as conductors, as bridge to cover the gap between us with our ‘democracy’ and ethical code down to chaps with swords doing deeds. Those latter would seem strange and alien, if not for hobbits connecting us with them, who, by and by growing (but that happens later on), show that values of ‘deeders’ are not very far from our own, that we, after all, are of the same world, makes us feel for them by comparison.

And now I’m smoothly on my Entry #3. Such a lengthy, maybe even boring (to some) prologue is there for that purpose. It hammers into reader's head the sense of ‘reality’ of the world to be opened up, besides that of ‘modernity’ and Englishness of the heroes to be, sets a stage for us to feel for heroes, not to look at the whole thing as another peculiar and antique thing, to make it ours.

And that’s about the shape of it.

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Old 06-23-2004, 09:21 AM   #100
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Gadzooks! Who would have thought that so much could be written about the Prologue over such a short space of time, and still remain so pertinent and interesting. Kudos to all those posting. There are some fascinating points made here.

I’m playing catch-up again so, as is my wont, I’m just going to go ahead and post my thoughts on reading the Prologue (most of which have already been noted by others to some degree) and then pick up on one or two points made by others. As always, apologies for the length.

I love the way that the Prologue is so Hobbit-centric (to borrow Fordim’s phrase), largely because I love Hobbits. And it makes sense that it should be, given that LotR was written (originally at least) as a sequel to The Hobbit in response to calls from readers to learn more about Hobbits. Here, before the story has even begun, Tolkien is satisfying that demand from his existing readers.

The question of why not include this information in the Appendices was raised and has, I think, been well answered by Mr Underhill, Firefoot and Fordim, among others. I agree with the point that, like the First Forword, it draws us into the story by seeking to persuade us of the “fiction” that this all really happened and was compiled by the Hobbits in the Red Book of Westmarch. But what really struck me, on reading the Prologue, was the way in which it establishes an understanding of the nature of the characters that are to be central to the story. By doing so, Tolkien helps us identify with them and ensures that we are not surprised when they behave as they do in the story. This process manifests itself in a number of ways in the Prologue.

First and foremost, Hobbits are established as likeable characters. They are described as a merry folk, good-natured and hospitable, who dress in bright colours, have mouths apt to laughter, delight in parties and are fond of simple jests. As Bêthberry says, they appreciate leisure. Yes, they have their vices, such as drinking, smoking and eating a lot, but these are themselves endearing (at least to me, as someone who indulges all three – perhaps that’s why I like Hobbits so much ). And their less endearing flaws (their parochialism and isolationism are mentioned here frequently) are not played up in the Prologue, or at least not in such a way as to cancel out the positive qualities with which we are presented. In short, given the way that Hobbits are presented to us here, how could we not fail to like them and look forward to hearing more about their adventures?

The Prologue also helps us, the readers, to identify with these charming folk, from whom the central characters of the story are drawn. Even though Hobbits are described as being scared of the Big Folk, they are nevertheless identified as being closer to us than Elves or Dwarves. They are “normal” (and therefore not flawless, as has been noted), certainly moreso than the likes of the noble Aragorn and the lofty Elves, much as we may admire their qualities. And, in being described as such right at the outset, the Hobbit characters collectively become the “everyman” with whom the reader can closely identify in this enchanting, but often frightening, world. This sense is, I think, heightened by the fact that their society and way of living seems anachronistic in comparison with the rest of Middle-earth, as HerenIstarion noted.

Others too have touched on this point in their posts. Davem said:


Quote:
I do think its interesting the way Tolkien wishes to deny any speculation about 'magic' as regards Hobbits. Maybe he feels that the reader may form the impression that they are supernatural creatures (HOBgoblins, HOBthrusts, HOBhounds - all supernatural creatures from folklore), so he's attempting to disabuse us of the idea, & emphasise their ordinaryness - they're 'relatives of ours'.
To which mark12_30 interestingly replied:


Quote:
I had often thought his insistence a little odd, but considered this way it's quite comforting.
Child said:


Quote:
There is something no one else has mentioned on reading the prologue: how familiar and comfortable the Hobbits feel. I am certainly not the first reader to see this, but every time I read the prologue it strikes me. While the Hobbit perspective is not identical to my own, it's enough alike that I can identify with many of their desires and their shortcomings.
And Fordim, in musing upon the parallels between Hobbit nature and the nature of evil, said:


Quote:
They are not ‘pure’ manifestations of natural ‘good’ who can be corrupted, but – like ‘us’ – regular and normal people who are capable of both “magic” and “art”, “Rules” and freedom, “order” and “contradictions”, generosity and possessiveness.
Fordim also suggested that we learn about ourselves by learning about the Hobbit characters and this, I think, is because they are presented in such a way that we are able closely to identify with them.

And, having presented us with these likeable folk with whom we, the readers, can identify, Tolkien goes on to outline those additional Hobbitish characteristics which, while not immediately apparent, are nevertheless of utmost importance to the storyline. They are described as “curiously tough”, “difficult to daunt or kill”, and able to “survive rough handling by grief, foe or weather in a way that astonished those who did not know them well”. This helps to explain how the central Hobbit characters, despite being from a diminutive and fun-loving race, are able to endure the incredible suffering and hardship which each of them undergoes on the Quest. (A similar picture was painted of Bilbo when Gandalf described him as being “as tough as a Dragon in a pinch” or something similar, although it is addressed in a more light-hearted manner – as indeed are the travails which Bilbo undergoes.) It also helps explain why, despite being uncomfortable with things with which they are not familiar (a result of their parochial nature), they are nevertheless resilient and adaptable when confronted with them. As Fordim said, although Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin (as well as Bilbo) are extraordinary characters:


Quote:
… their ability to do good in the war against evil is here, I think, being set up as being the result of their Hobbit-natures.
This also helps to explain their unique resilience to the corruptive properties of the Ring.

Of course, we do not need Tolkien to tell us about their resilient nature in the Prologue to make them believable characters, but these passages in the Prologue do aid our understanding of the Hobbit characters and the way in which they interact with others and react to events in the story. And it also helps us understand how, once galvanised by Sam, Merry and Pippin, the Hobbit folk are able to rise up so effectively against their oppressors in the Scouring of the Shire.

I would also agree with those who have said that, by presenting the Shire as an idyllic setting, the reader is able understand exactly what it is the Hobbits are fighting for, both throughout the Quest and during the Scouring. Son of Numenor put this very well when he said:


Quote:
The prologue, in my opinion, serves to highlight the idyllic, pastoral quality (and also the simpleness and 'smallness') of the Shire, perhaps even moreso than the actual book chapters that take place in the Shire. It lays the groundwork for why four hobbits are willing to fight to preserve their homeland, and ultimately serves as an illustration of why Frodo can never be at peace in the Shire after destroying the Ring.
**********************

On a slightly different point, it is interesting how much Tolkien gives away about the outcome of the story in the Prologue, at least as regards the fates of the characters. As Lyta said:


Quote:
It almost seems as if the prologue is an epilogue as well! It hints at the connections of Meriadoc and Peregrin with Rohan and Gondor, tells us that Frodo indeed lives to complete a history of the War of the Ring and that there are considerations made for the "children of Samwise."
We learn that each of the four central Hobbit characters survives the events with which the story is concerned. The same applies to Faramir, since reference is made to his grandson Barahir. I find this particularly interesting, given that the narrative (deliberately) leads us to believe, at various points in the story, that four of these characters (Frodo, Faramir, Merry and Pippin) die, or are on the verge of dying. I don’t recall this affecting my sense of suspense (particularly as I specifically remember mourning Pippin’s “death” when I first read the book), but perhaps I didn’t read the Prologue first time round, or perhaps I just didn’t pick up on these references. Does anyone else remember having had the suspense of these characters’ apparent or imminent deaths “spoiled” by the knowledge which they gained from the Prologue?

**********************

On a very minor point, I love the reference to “wild folk and wicked things” having “not heard of the King”. This ties up with a comment made by Bilbo in The Hobbit to that effect, and nicely explains why he said it, despite the region having had no king for a good many years.

**********************

Finally, a quick response to Estelyn’s point:


Quote:
This brings a vision of Hobbit slums to my mind that disturbs me greatly! How does that go with their friendliness and peacefulness, with the familial ties they hold high? Is Tolkien thinking of the Biblical “The poor you have always with you”? Is it inevitable that there will be poverty, and the kind described by Tolkien is great poverty indeed, even among a society with so many idyllic traits?

And what causes the poverty?
Like Child, Kuruharan and others, I don’t think that Tolkien was here describing extreme poverty (at least as regards the times in which Bilbo, Frodo et al lived). The Shire is described as a society with a rigid class system (like England at the time he was writing), but one very much at ease with such a system (unlike England). The “poorest” Hobbits were simply to be contrasted with the more well-off. They were not, I think, desperately poor, in the sense of living on the breadline. It is, of course, an ideal, like the Shire itself, and couldn’t exist in real life, since the rich are rarely the philanthropists that Tolkien suggests most wealthy Hobbits are, and the laborious poor would no doubt resent the idle rich. (Or perhaps there were the seeds of a labour movement in the Shire – could be an interesting topic for the renowned Hobbit sociologist, Professor Marileangorifurnimalium .)
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Old 06-23-2004, 11:33 PM   #101
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Nice rounded up summary, SpM, thank you. And though it seems very much a post with which the discussion can be closed, I can not stand the temptation to pick up a little portion of your thread (so that is the way of collective discussion, one participant's thoughts being effect of another poster's argument)

So

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
I love the reference to “wild folk and wicked things” having “not heard of the King”
So do I. And, is with many things else in Tolkien, the great skill applied to this phrase here too. It is perfectly fitting in its proper sense, that is, indeed, around Shire there is a wilderness, and scoundrels out there haven't heard of the King (since there is no King present whatsoeverl). Indeed, this is confirmed by ruffians later on in the "Scouring of the Shire", when they daunt Pippin with mockery about King's messanger.

But does not King with capital K and wild folk who know Him not ring any other bells on other levels?
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Old 06-24-2004, 03:47 AM   #102
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Maybe the following is of slight interest with regards to the Shire:

some thoughts, or nation in ME
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Old 02-24-2005, 09:14 PM   #103
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Eye

I was reading Tolkien's letters today and stumbled across a little passage about hobbits that I thought belonged on this thread. I'm rather surprised that no one posted it before I got around to it.

letter 246-
Quote:
Sam is meant to be lovable and laughable. Some readers he irritates and even infuriates. I can well understand it. All hobbits at times affect me in the same way, though I remain very fond of them. But Sam can be very 'trying'. He is more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity - by which I do not mean a mere 'down-to-earthiness' - a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional 'wisdom'. We only meet exceptional hobbits in close companionship - those who had a grace or gift: a vision of beauty, and a reverence for things nobler than themselves, at war with their rustic self-satisfaction. Imagine Sam without his education by Bilbo and his fascination with things Elvish! Not difficult. The Cotton family and the Gaffer, when the 'Travellers' return are a sufficient glimpse.
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Old 02-25-2005, 04:20 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerenIstarion
But does not King with capital K and wild folk who know Him not ring any other bells on other levels?
Quite!
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Old 01-10-2008, 09:26 AM   #105
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Looking back at the beginning of this thread reminds me that it was Fordim who initiated the discussion project! His introduction is well worth rereading.

I began thinking about the Prologue even before I actually reread it - I looked up information on war and weapons as concerning hobbits for another thread just a few days ago. This introduction to the book is an absolute essential for anyone writing a Hobbit RPG or fanfiction! There is so much invaluable information contained in it. I know that I read it very closely when beginning to write a story, and rereading it just might inspire me to finish it in the near future...

The second part, 'Concerning Pipe-weed', contains spoilers about Merry's future - is it really necessary to have that at the beginning of the book, or would it have been better placed in the Appendices? The same thought applies to the 'Note on the Shire Records' - it is chockfull of spoilers! Now, I'm definitely a person who reads all introductions, forewords, even acknowledgements, when I read a book, so I assume I must have read this part before delving into the story, but I don't remember whether I realized the spoilers back then. It's been awhile!

The future of Merry, Pippin and Sam and their offspring is mentioned, and the fact that Frodo writes the Red Book gives away the fact that he survived the War of the Ring. Does anyone remember realizing that when you first read the book? I would definitely have placed this section in the Appendices, to be read afterwards.
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:41 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
The same thought applies to the 'Note on the Shire Records' - it is chockfull of spoilers!
'Note on the Shire Records' does not appear in the First Edition text, & neither does the Index in RotK if it comes to that - interestingly enough all through the FE reprints, & that's up to 1966, all you get is an apology at the end of RotK for its absence!:
Quote:
PUBLISHER'S NOTE
We regret that it has not been possible to include as an appendix to this edition the index of names announced in the Preface of The Fellowship of the Ring
is all you get - which appeared in every edition of RotK from 1955 till 1966. A brand new was compiled by Hammond & Scull for the 50th anniversary edition.
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Old 01-10-2008, 01:13 PM   #107
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This is an intriguing issue, Esty.

The concern over spoilers isn't part of traditional literary culture. It's part of pop culture--did it arise on the internet with the discussion of weekly TV series and movies? (Not to self, check out OED on "spoilers" and see if the word postdates Tolkien.) I could be wrong, but I doubt Tolkien himself would have been bothered by spoilers. After all, look how many times he rewrote some of his own stories, how many versions we have. He was interested in definitive versions.

Books, for old time readers, were meant to be savoured for more than simply the plot. It was probably considered quite vulgar to be interested only in whodunnit or whahappened. It was the 'quality' of writing, the interest in how the writer choose to present the story and characters, that was supposed to provide the entertainment. Generations of clever young fellows spent (misspent?) their youth translating Greek and Latin not simply as an aid to demonstrating their knowledge of that language but to show their skill as writers in English, their command of style, technique, rhetoric, "colour." (Well, this was the pedagogical purpose behind the imposition of those school assignments. )

Novelty was not an especially important quality in literary merit. After all, much of the reading public already knew the plot of the ancient stories. So why did writers retell those stories? Because they saw new and different ways to tell them, new and different approaches, perspectives. So it was almost a situation where knowing the plot ahead of time was part of the reading process, being able to make comparisons and see new twists and turns, being able to appreciate how one was led up to the conclusion. So it didn't matter if readers guessed from the Prologue that Frodo survives: the interest was in his internal journey and how he came to survive.

Novelty really I suppose only became significant with . . . novels.
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Old 01-10-2008, 05:28 PM   #108
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I absolutely agree with Bêthberry here. Tolkien's strength is not in surprising ending or a twist in the plot (the thing which is almost essential for a good novel), even the final revelation that the Shire is destroyed and that Sharkey is Saruman is not, in my opinon, that surprising twist, though it has very close to it.
As I said in the Foreword thread, I did not read the Prologue the first time I read FotR, yet it did not bother me in the slightest: I did not seem to miss anything (like knowing when old Toby started to grow his herbs) and, of course, I was not affected by the spoilers - at least in the beginning. Nevertheless, it was quite clear to me that Frodo survives and I must say in Cirith Ungol I did not think for a second that he could be really dead, and I'm sure any spoilers would not play any role in this, whether I read them or not.

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Originally Posted by Bêthberry View Post
So it didn't matter if readers guessed from the Prologue that Frodo survives: the interest was in his internal journey and how he came to survive.
Only to this: at least personally, my interest was not during my first reading - and probably not even in the later readings - whether Frodo or how Frodo survives at all. In fact, Frodo and the hobbits were on the edge of my interest. I could even say that it was not that I would follow the tale of Frodo and the Fellowship, as they pass through some sceneries and events and pass by some people, but that I was trying to explore all of Middle-Earth's sceneries and events and characters, while I had some group of Frodos to lead me through, like tour guides. You know what I mean? At least for the first time, I hardly cared about Frodo or his mission, even. I entered this fantastic world and the only way I could explore all its beautiful places was to follow the "camera view" that was given to me by the author. Otherwise, the world was shut to me, it was a different world that I was not welcome in, that I did not belong to, but as long as I followed this group of Frodos and Sams and Striders, I had the privilege to take a peek at least on a little part of it. (And after all this time, today I can say that only very slowly it has opened to me, but I can feel a little more welcome in there and I feel I can move almost freely there now.)
It's not that I would completely ignore Frodo's quest and the storyline: of course not, I was thrilled at many moments, I was moved, I shared his or his fellows' feelings. But it was not the first place for me, and only in later readings this gained more and more importance for me.
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Old 01-11-2008, 01:54 PM   #109
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Davem, thanks for the reminder that not all we read today was originally printed. Still, when it was included it was within JRRT's lifetime, so he must not have seen the possibility of spoilers as a disadvantage.

Bêthberry, excellent thoughts! There were, of course, murder mystery writers back in Tolkien's day, so I assume the authors and readers of 'whodunits' must have been interested in keeping others from knowing the murderer, but your remarks on the non-existent role of spoiler warnings in traditional literature are a valuable addition to this discussion. And you make an interesting connection between novels and novelty!

Legate, I enjoyed your post about your personal reading experience. I find it fascinating to see how differently the same book is perceived by different people - and even by the same person at different times of her/his life.
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:24 AM   #110
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Well, to the Prologue, plenty of strange and interesting titbits here.

From the description of Hobbits, did anyone else think Leprechauns? Their ‘magical’ disappearing acts (to us ‘Big Folk’), diminutive size, dressing in green and yellow, curly hair, delight in simple jests and, to anticipate, Mad Baggins appearing with a bang and a flash laden with gold and jools. Maybe the Irish retain the last folk memories of Middle Earth, corrupted by the passage of millennia though they be?

The Harfoots’ section reminded me of ‘Of Dwarves and Men’. Here it seems as if the Harfoots, living on the Eastern foothills of the Misty Mountains in ancient times must have been the food-suppliers for Khazad-Dum.

Ancient hobbit settlements throughout Eriador sound intriguing, watch out in your next RPG, that Barrow might turn out to be an abandoned hobbit-hole!

Now we come to a really interesting bit-

Quote:
For the Elves of the High Kindred had not yet forsaken Middle-earth, and they dwelt still at that time at the Grey Havens away to the west, and in other places in reach of the Shire.
OK, so we know the Grey Havens and the second dwelling of High Elves must be Rivendell. This leaves at least one other High-Elven settlement in Eriador, so where is it? I guess the candidates are Minhiriath, Enedwaith and around the Ered Luin. Minhiriath is most mysterious, plenty of white space on the map for unexpected places. Enedwaith seems least likely, extensively logged by the Numenoreans in the Second Age etc. I fancy the southern part of the Ered Luin, where the map shows a forest, as the most likely place. Any other bids?

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They claim, of course, to have done everything before the people of the Shire, whom they refer to as “colonists”;
Breelanders seem just like us ‘Cheeky Brits’

Always been interested in the ‘Bounders’ and the wandering Hobbits that lived outside the Shire. I wonder if life was a little less comfortable on the marches of the Shire, even given the Rangers’ protection?

The riddle ‘Authorities’ made me smile, sounds like a version of the MCC earnestly debating the merits of silly-mid-off (that’s cricket for the “colonists” information!). By the way did you notice that Merry eventually became a philologist? I guess it would be stretching the suspension of disbelief too far for Pippin to take up such an interest, as he merely becomes an ancient historian!
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:48 AM   #111
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OK, so we know the Grey Havens and the second dwelling of High Elves must be Rivendell. This leaves at least one other High-Elven settlement in Eriador, so where is it? I guess the candidates are Minhiriath, Enedwaith and around the Ered Luin. Minhiriath is most mysterious, plenty of white space on the map for unexpected places. Enedwaith seems least likely, extensively logged by the Numenoreans in the Second Age etc. I fancy the southern part of the Ered Luin, where the map shows a forest, as the most likely place. Any other bids?
It could just mean Forlindon and Harlindon.
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Old 02-20-2008, 12:57 PM   #112
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Ancient hobbit settlements throughout Eriador sound intriguing, watch out in your next RPG, that Barrow might turn out to be an abandoned hobbit-hole!
Well, I always found rather interesting that the Hobbits, the Stoors in particular, used to live in Dunland...

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OK, so we know the Grey Havens and the second dwelling of High Elves must be Rivendell. This leaves at least one other High-Elven settlement in Eriador, so where is it? I guess the candidates are Minhiriath, Enedwaith and around the Ered Luin. Minhiriath is most mysterious, plenty of white space on the map for unexpected places. Enedwaith seems least likely, extensively logged by the Numenoreans in the Second Age etc. I fancy the southern part of the Ered Luin, where the map shows a forest, as the most likely place. Any other bids?
Well, I think not - Enedwaith&Minhiriath, according to UT, were almost empty, no inhabitants, the original wild hunters and fishermen were diminished and almost died out by the end of the Third Age, and if there was any Elven settlement, it would surely be mentioned. No, I think Rivendell and Grey Havens were the only ones. Unless you count the White Towers as a place of pilgrimage visits.

And yes, Elmo may be right.
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:08 AM   #113
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Hi Elmo & Legate,

I see your points but I guess it depends on whether you class Harlindon and Forlindon as 'belonging to' the Grey Havens, and whether they are 'in reach of the Shire' (admittedly closer than Rivendell I suppose).

In my head at least I'm going to stick with some elven settlement at the Southern end of the Ered Luin. Another point to consider is that during the Second Age Sauron over-ran all of Eriador apart from Rivendell, which would argue against a (very) ancient settlement of High elves in Minhiriath or Enedwaith.

As to the 'blank spaces' on the map, I've always thought they indicated lack of knowledge rather than lack of inhabitants, considering,

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Old 02-21-2008, 10:11 AM   #114
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As to the 'blank spaces' on the map, I've always thought they indicated lack of knowledge rather than lack of inhabitants, considering,
Yes, but speaking specifically about Enedwaith and Minhiriath, I was not backing my thoughts by the fact that they are empty spaces but by what is said about them in LotR and in UT. And any larger Elven settlement down there would have been mentioned, I'm sure. The Elves were diminishing and leaving Middle-Earth, not spreading.
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Old 02-21-2008, 10:25 AM   #115
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As to the 'blank spaces' on the map, I've always thought they indicated lack of knowledge rather than lack of inhabitants, considering,
Raynor Unwin, in a talk at the Church House Bookshop back in 1981 to celebrate the publication of UT, told of when Pauline Baynes went to see Tolkien about some difficulties she was having over a Poster-map of Middle-earth she'd been commissioned to paint: she'd noticed that when the map was reproduced on such a large scale there was a lot of empty space. Apparently Tolkien was very solicitous & helped her out by simply inventing some features/places on the spot for her to insert. It seems that the real reason for the blank spaces on the map was more mundane - that Tolkien hadn't realised they were there, & when they were pointed out to him he simply made up stuff to fill them....
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Old 02-23-2008, 05:42 PM   #116
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Hi davem and Legate,

Points taken indeed, I especially liked 'simply made up stuff', which in a way sums up the entire Legendarium

I can imagine Tolkien making up a map feature on the spur of the moment then later weaving an intricate web of story and philology to explain its name and history. If we had been fortunate enough for him to live a thousand years I bet there would be few blank spaces!

Agreed on the lack of large settlements, I doubt there's an unmentioned Gondolin lurking in Minhiriath somehow! However I feel that there will be somebody around, even if just wandering elves, 'outsider' hobbits, Druedain, Rangers, Wild Men, Trolls etc. This is partly from the point of view that people always (on our world) move into new territory unless it is entirely inhospitable, and also from the books themselves. Whenever the protagonists move into a new area they meet new, and often unexpected inhabitants, eg. the three Trolls, Beorn, Tom Bombadil, Lothlorien (from Hobbits' point of view), Faramir, the Woses etc. Only the Trollshaws and Hollin appear properly deserted, the Brown lands are patrolled by orcs and even Midgewater has its midges (and, I strongly suspect, Mewlips). Many of these people are hidden away and therefore would not be shown on maps unless directly encountered by the mappers. (I guess you can tell I'm pro-Giant!)
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:10 AM   #117
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One of the first things I noticed about the Prologue is it contains frequent references to and information about events that occur after the events of the rest of the novel. Apparently Tolkien is happy that readers will know in advance that many of the central characters who will be going into all sorts of dangerous situations during the course of the War of the Ring will survive. Interesting and unusual for a Prologue, but I think it's effective and does not detract from the rest of the book. As Fordim Hedgethistle explains above, one of the purposes of this Prologue is to treat the fiction of the book as being historical and derived from older primary works, rather than a fictional story told by an author.

The next thing I noticed was a questionable grammatical usage, and I'm unsure, because I know that Tolkien was a master the language, whether it's just a typographical error introduced during the publication, or was done on purpose. I was taught that "farther" and "farthest" should be used (instead of "further" and "furthest") when discussing purely physical, geographical distances. Yet we read on page 7 about the three Elf-towers on Tower Hills, that the "tallest was furthest away, standing alone upon a green mound."

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For they attributed to the king of old all their essential laws; and usually they kept the laws of free will, because they were The Rules (as they said), both ancient and just.
This is one of those wonderfully simple sentences that Tolkien so often writes that open up into all kinds of complexities when you pay it a bit of closer attention. How, in the name of Eru, can Hobbits keep the “laws of free will” because they are “The Rules”? This would appear to be a contradiction in terms: “free will” would appear to mean freedom, and a lack of constraint – the ability to do as one chooses; but “The Rules” (capitalised no less) would appear to be the precise opposite – one follows rules and does what they say. ... I don’t think that this really is a contradiction, but it is a very complicated kind of statement, and one that goes to the very nature of the story that is about to be told.
I think there is a much less complicated explanation for this. The text is that the Hobbits usually "kept the laws of free will because they were The Rules (as they said), both ancient and just." I believe this is simply a matter of an idiomatic difference between British English of Tolkien's time and the English of today. Simply, laws in the text refers to the laws of the ancient kingdom. Tolkien is not saying they are the "laws of free will"; he is saying that, regarding the ancient laws of the King, the Hobbits kept them of free will, or in modern idiomatic American English, kept them of their own free will. Note that free will is not capitalized, as one would expect if Tolkien were making of it a title, "the Laws of Free Will." In other words, of free will does not modify laws but modifies the verb kept. Therefore, there is no contradiction. Tolkien is merely saying that Hobbits kept the old laws of the king not because they were legal rules, but chose to keep them because they believed they were proper and just rules to live by.

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Old 11-25-2009, 09:22 AM   #118
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Further/Farther

I'm actually really curious about this and need to look into when and where this rule sprung up.

The reason I say this is that countless, countless, countless British Victorian novels consistently use "further" for "farther." Which makes me inclined to say it's either an American rule, or one that wasn't created until after that era. In which latter case it might simply be Tolkien deliberately evoking an older feeling, or simply not being aware of the newer rule as he was steeped in older culture (of course, if he knew, I have the feeling he'd deliberately ignore it).

Consequently when I encounter "further" for "farther" in my reading I like to think of it as a construction along the lines of "I should like" for "I would like"--something that is deliberately and delightfully British.
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:50 AM   #119
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Mnemo is perfectly right about Tolkien's attitude towards "farther" and "further"--he makes a direct reference to this in one of his Letters--let me see if I can dig up the reference in the 23 minutes before class...

Aha! Here we are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 138, A Letter to Christopher Tolkien: 4 August 1953
The galleys are proving rather a bore! There seem such an endless lot of them ; and they have put me very much out of conceit with pans of the Great Work, which seems, I must confess, in print very long-winded in parts. But the printing is very good, as it ought to be from an almost faultless copy; except that the impertinent compositors have taken it upon themselves to correct, as they suppose, my spelling and grammar: altering throughout dwarves to dwarfs; elvish to elfish; further to farther; and worst of all, elven – to elfin. I let off my irritation in a snorter to A. and U. which produced a grovel.
--emphasis Tolkien's own

Quote:
Originally Posted by 148, A Letter to Katherine Farrer: 7 August 1954
I am afraid there are still a number of 'misprints' in Vol. I! Including the one on p. 166. But nasturtians is deliberate, and represents a final triumph over the high-handed printers. Jarrold's appear to have a highly educated pedant as a chief proof-reader, and they started correcting my English without reference to me: elfin for elven; farther to further; try to say for try and say and so on. I was put to the trouble of proving to him his own ignorance, as well as rebuking his impertinence.
Again, italics are from The Letters, not me.

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Originally Posted by 236, A Letter to Rayner Unwin: 30 December 1961
I suppose I should be grateful that Cox and Wyman have not inflicted the change from elven to elfin and further to farther on me which Jarrolds attempted, but Jarrolds were at least dealing with a MS. that had a good many casual errors in it.
Those are all the references I found in The Letters, but none of them match my mental memory of how Tolkien put it, but as my memory is hardly infallible and these quotes suffice, it is probably sufficient to post these and note that Tolkien was well aware that the 'proper' usage would be farther, and decided he did not wish to use it.
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:55 AM   #120
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The reason I say this is that countless, countless, countless British Victorian novels consistently use "further" for "farther." Which makes me inclined to say it's either an American rule, or one that wasn't created until after that era.
Bingo--I think you've got it! Using further in that sense must've been merely standard idiomatic British English of Tolkien's day, just as of free will meant of [his/her/my/our/your/their] own free will.
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