Mandos Thread: DEAD ONLY! - WW LXXXVI

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Rikae

(Man, I'm really enjoying watching the living speculate about this thread - interesting psychological experiment, just as I'd hoped. The attitude of "well, there's an afterlife, so it doesn't matter if I die or who I kill" is funny, too, in a somewhat disturbing way...)

Haha, very true.

~~

Bed time.

++Aganzir

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Rikae

You know -
I'm going to exercise my divine right as a mod to be capricious and give the dead

1 retractable vote each per Day (or Night)

because retractable votes are cool.

(Man, I'm really enjoying watching the living speculate about this thread - interesting psychological experiment, just as I'd hoped. The attitude of "well, there's an afterlife, so it doesn't matter if I die or who I kill" is funny, too, in a somewhat disturbing way...)

I think it's pretty amusing, too, but I just hope people aren't really considering other people to actually be cheaters. I don't believe for a second anyone would break the rules - no one (yes, even Nog) would do such a thing.

[Mänwe]

Well that rule entry was fortuitous...and i'm glad I refreshed the page before leaving..but, I don't think i'll retract. Which might just make me wrong on two accounts.

edit: x'ed - fortuitous in light of alive thread

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oooh, Rikae, can I be in the narration as giving Agan her vote? Please?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

Well that rule entry was fortuitous...and i'm glad I refreshed the page before leaving..but, I don't think i'll retract. Which might just make me wrong on two accounts.

Why would you be wrong? Her identity (and mine) are going to be proven tomorrow, if you're worried about voting for an innocent, and if you're worried about Nog having another vote, you said yourself you were worried about him.

[Mänwe]

Check the alive thread..for a Nog seer reveal.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So I see. And what I see is...

Bull. Complete and utter crap, no way is Nog the Seer. No, no, and no. Phantom is right in that of course he'd 'reveal' at his point.

I also think worse of Lottie and Legate for buying it. He's clearly, clearly up to no good.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh lord, and please don't let the Ranger buy it, if for some reason they don't lynch Nog. Can't they see all he's trying to do is get Agan killed so I can't come back? Not that I'd be able to do much, but still.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Phantom's making a lot of sense, but I wouldn't put completely out of my head the notion that he and Nog are on the same side. Nog, with his Seer reveal, is probably a cobbler at this point - and I won't trust him even if he shows up 'innocent' to us.

Glirdan is bad as well, given how he keeps sheeping onto the Phantom and backtracking "no, you're right, I'm wrong" etc.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

HAHAHA. Agan just pulled probably the best Lover-ploy I've ever seen! I love that girl. And by not acknowledging it, Nog fell right into her trap. That feels very nice.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Still, don't write off Phantom. I don't trust him and think he could definitely be piling on to Nobbler.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Fea

Also, I suspect that if Agan was lying about the lover thing, there would have been a much more exaggerated spate of Dead Thread posts in which Shasta spazzed out one way or another.

Would you like me to spazz, Fea darling? I could, just for you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, *snicker*. Ang, darling, I adore you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Hi, Nog. I'd say "sorry to see you here", but I'm not particularly sorry.

[Macalaure]

And so the Halls of Mandos welcome the spirit of another Elven rider slain on the plains of Ard-galen. May healing and closure await the tormented and may the dead reflect and discourse with one another upon their past and future... and may this discourse be civil!

The living:

Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwarin538
Legate of Amon Lanc
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Feanor of the Peredhil


The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Shastanis Althreduin
Nogrod
Blind Guardian

Night 3 has begun! You may now vote for one of you to reveal whether he's a wolf or not.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Civil? When am I ever anything but civil?

Nogrod, on the other hand... oh, wait, no, I'm being civil, aren't I? Darn.

++Nogrod

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, hmm. According to the narration, BG had a role. If she was a cobbler/wolf, and the role was reassigned to an innocent, we're going to have to throw out all the interactions from the past two days. I hate starting over.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Hi, Nog. I'd say "sorry to see you here", but I'm not particularly sorry.

Well you should as the village just lost their seer...

Okay, I'm a bit too agitated to make any further comments right now (and too tired to read this thread right now). But whatever it is, my only option seems to be dreaming of Mänwe toNight - as I trust you being the lover of Agan (whom I already know being Beren).

I'll be back later toNight though, but at the moment I'm not feeling too helpful. Vice versa. (= reaally disappointed)


So any sarcasm I found in your tone in wishing me welcome you can double from my part.

But Iwould like to say this.

If Rikae (and Mac?) ended up with you two being lovers, me being the seer and phantom being the cobbler, I do think the other roles are kind of tailored as well... Too fitting to be random?

Meta-reasoning, I know, but pretty believable taking in the evidence.


Anyway, to sleep now. See you later.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It's going to be really funny after this game, because I'm going to quote you now (or paraphrase, anyway) -

"We shouldn't use people's emotional outbursts as signs of innocence - wolves have used them before!"

And I don't believe you're the seer for one second. Agan trapped you quite cleverly, I think. Given that you don't seem to care overmuch if we dream you down here, I'd say you're most likely a cobbler at this point, but we'll find out soon enough.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

To clarify - as an innocent, when Agan said "No, I'm Luthien", the correct response was something along the lines of "No, you're Beren/Rikae told me you were Beren/etc". Instead, you didn't even acknowledge her statement. It's pretty clear that you didn't have an answer prepared for that and couldn't think of one, so hoped no one would notice.

[Nogrod]

I thought of going to sleep but thought I'd send this idea to you.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If Rikae (and Mac?) ended up with you two being lovers, me being the seer and phantom being the cobbler, I do think the other roles are kind of tailored as well... Too fitting to be random?

Meta-reasoning, I know, but pretty believable taking in the evidence.

If that is true, then the wolves will be like Boro, Fea and Wilwa. Or change one or another from there. But the list does actualy fit with my list of suspcions (okay I suspect Greenie and Mith as well for a reason and many others with not so big reasons but gut felings)

Good Night anyway - if there is a night in Mandos?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I thought of going to sleep but thought I'd send this idea to you.If that is true, then the wolves will be like Boro, Fea and Wilwa. Or change one or another from there. But the list does actualy fit with my list of suspcions (okay I suspect Greenie and Mith as well for a reason and many others with not so big reasons but gut felings)

Good Night anyway - if there is a night in Mandos?

I think it's always twilight here. (See, I can be civil!)

[Rikae]

BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose original role I deemed less important.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I don't believe you're the seer for one second. Agan trapped you quite cleverly, I think. Given that you don't seem to care overmuch if we dream you down here, I'd say you're most likely a cobbler at this point, but we'll find out soon enough.

See this post of mine from late D2. And think about the possibilities.

If I was a wolf or a cobbler I might have done some of the following ones as well, but if you think of it, I wouldn't have hang myself to these if I was not the seer...

So here's some what I put there for good and bad (I really feel bad now making the first ones)

Originally Posted by me on the game thread late on D2

Clearly separating Agan from others here but of course not saying she's a lover as that would have ben damming - and I felt bad afterwards making her this clearly innocent from others as I realisedc how terrible it would bre if the wolves realised I was the seer and thus I would have compromised the lovers. It's a minor comfort to me they picked the lover the other way around... but I do keep banging my head on he keabaorad for making that so evident in a game like this.

When it started looking bad and I needed to get to sleep, I felt I was forced to make this post (beginning of which is here:

I still insisted Agan was innocent even if she ran for me, but the more important thing on this occasion is the bolded part.

Re-organise the words from the "AS TIME HERE" - it is easily turned into "I AM THE SEER".

An odd way to start a paragraph: "As time here passes away, I need to sleep" but normal enough that no one pays attention if not looking for it.


And to anyone willing to suspect my points, how could I have guessed Agan was innocent with that certitude and so unwilling to come more particular with it (telling I had the lover would have been a disaster!!!)? I did even say that I would not suspect her even if she was coming at me with full frontal attack toDay - before she decided to reveal her role.


I liked many of tp's points on D1 but something bugged me there, thus I dreamt of him last Night and found out he is a cobbler.

If the ranger helps me, I can take two more dreams in. I checked this. I can dream of anyone I wish when I'm alive when I fall asleep.

So I dream toNight being protected (hopefully), and if you will not lynch me on the next Day I can dream of a living person even if I get killed then the next Night. So moving to Mandos I'll have the dream of N4 and may be then continue the fight from there.

But surely if you're not willing to change your mind, or even honestly review it, then okay. Let's forget this thread then.

I mean I'm really tired to argue with stubborn people who don't read things ...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Rikae

BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose original role I deemed less important.

Oh, good! Okay.

Now, by the wording of that I think BG could have been a wolf, and her role could have gone to someone who was originally a cobbler, but it could just as easily be that she was the Seer/Ranger and her role went to an ordo. It all depends on what the alignment of 'cobbler' is considered to be, I suppose. Something to think about, anyway.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Do you think I haven't been following the game thread the entire time, Nog? I saw your post, and Phantom has said much the same (although I already know you're going to claim that he's a cobbler and to disregard everything he's said) - there's nothing to suggest that you didn't make those hints specifically because you knew you'd want to false-reveal as the Seer at some point, and everything to suggest that if you were the Seer you'd never have done such a thing since there was no need.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose original role I deemed less important.

the lovers are taken, the seer is killed, so what?

Hopefully not a new wolf?

If he was the ranger, I will declare him a non-desirable in any of my games to come and I will strongly suggest to others they should decline his requests as well... I think he has been a "non-player" in a few games in a row by now. Well in principle, any role he had...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Do you think I haven't been following the game thread the entire time, Nog? I saw your post, and Phantom has said much the same (although I already know you're going to claim that he's a cobbler and to disregard everything he's said) - there's nothing to suggest that you didn't make those hints specifically because you knew you'd want to false-reveal as the Seer at some point, and everything to suggest that if you were the Seer you'd never have done such a thing since there was no need.

Oh my... your stubborness might be a big problem here. Well, your panicking first and you not being able to admit you were wrong will be.

But I'm hopeful as I can dream of everyone coming in here, so maybe you can be persuaded one by one?

Wel I hope so, as we have a common mission here and it seems we have a relatively good start as we can really find ageement. Well we should t least...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Oh my... your stubborness might be a big problem here. Well, your panicking first and you not being able to admit you were wrong will be.

But I'm hopeful as I can dream of everyone coming in here, so maybe you can be persuaded one by one?

Wel I hope so, as we have a common mission here and it seems we have a relatively good start as we can really find ageement. Well we should t least...

Excuse me? Excuse me? Panicking? Really?

...

No, I'm not even going to bother. Rising to the bait is exactly what you want me to do and I'm not buying it.

I'll just sit here quietly and wait for Manwe to vote you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, I say things like that, and then come up with a point that has to be pointed out.

We, as a group (the dead) should only be voting to reveal the role of those who meet their death via the lynch. As the dead can only be revealed as "innocent" or "wolf", we already know that anyone killed by the wolves is not a "wolf"; therefore they're automatically "innocent", whether ordo, Gifted, or cobbler. Voting for someone sent here via wolf-kill is pointless as we already know the outcome.

That was probably obvious, but I felt the need to point it out nonetheless.

[Rikae]

Yeah, Nog, I think I remember BG pulling this stunt before as well. A ban from signing up for games might be in order.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I'll just sit here quietly and wait for Manwe to vote you.

I suggest he should do that. And you as well.

Rikae: Can I vote myself for my role to be revealed?

[Rikae]

Nog: of course.

[Nogrod]

Shasta, I'm really sorry about my language 12 hours ago, but I was soo freaking frustrated back then on why you didn't get what I was trying to say and which seemed so obvious to me...

But now I think I understand better and see I had ignored at least one major issue back there. And that actually changes things - making also your reluctance to believe me quite more understandable.

For I had somehow managed to ignore Agan's bluff where she said she was Lúthien... I should have noted it and refuted it.

The fun part of this is that I actually remember seeing that "revelation" but I just skimmed it as her saying she was a lover, not realising she said it the wrong way.

But then again, and to my believabilty, I did say she is Beren from the get-go quite openly and never claimed she was Lúthien. Because she isn't. She is Beren.


So, I do apologise again from you, and hope you will see why I reacted that way: having not reacted to that bluff by Agan, which you understandably interpreted as me bluffing, I was totally puzzled and frustrated why you didn't see my point...

[Nogrod]

Okay. I finally got to read this thread as well. And I can see where the wind blows.

*headdesk*

Anyway, we have to pull our act together now.

You Shasta may say and think what you say and think about that call for unity. But I do hope you listen and think closely now for a moment.


I was playing bad on D2, I admit and do apologise again for it (too tired, too involved, too many glasses of wine...). That being as it is, we should really concentrate. The village has basically lost the lovers who could bring some real info to the game - and they have lost their seer a few Days too early.

That means, I really think my place is here, I just would have wished to enter here a bit later. Now we have to hope the ranger manages to keep her/himself alive for a while before visiting us - who should have then a solid act going on here.

I mean this game is going to be played in here in the end and we have a chance of pulling this together now before the wolves and cobblers enter this domain.


Mänwe is an ordinary innocent. I dreamt that toNight.

It's a no brainer to say you Shasta are Lúthien.

I am the seer who knows that Agan is Beren and the phantom is cobbler.


I'm very happy to join the vote toNight for one of us:

++ Nogrod

I guess that does it as there are two votes for me now.


And I can tell you what Rikae will tell us as a result. She will say I'm an innocent.

Now that will rule out the possibility for you I'm a wolf. Ditto.


You still have a few options to speculate upon for sure.

Let's see...

I am the ranger?
I would have cursed differently if I was.

I am an ordinary innocent?
Maybe, but this isn't exactly a game where ordos should pull that kind of fake-seer -stunts... or to get that agitated if they were just going to get into this interesting new thread. Not to talk of keeping up the deceit on this thread.


So you have basically two options: I'm either a cobbler or the seer as I say I am, and am.

I do wish you to contemplate the following for a moment before making your judgement.

I know I can't show you any proof of me being the seer other than what I have said already. And yes, I know a cobbler willing to pull a stunt could have done something along the lines I did - although it would have required quite a bold act and a lot of luck to hit it right with Agan on D1 (remember that to a cobbler her role would have been a shot in the dark). There was no way a cobbler could have guessed that - and the possibility of that being revealed would have meant instant doom for him. So a bit risky, even in this kind of a game.

And really, because I knew her to be Beren there was no way I would have said that aloud. I already complained to Rikae, that that N1 dream was the worst ever. I needed to put Agan up on as the only innocent on D1 in case there were competing seer-revelations later in the game, so I had to have something to show if it came to that on D6 or something.

And anyway, would a cobbler have gotten that involved and / or personally annoyed? Like the ordinary innocent, I think a cobbler would have actually loved to get in here - especially if there was a hope some people would have thought him the seer! That would have been perfect for a cobbler! So, no reason to sound bitter or be angry.

Which brings me to the last fact I think you should consider.

I really got agitated in the end of D2 seeing the general vote coming towards me as I just didn't understand where it came from (thinking of it now I can see my failing to pick up Agan's bluff could be one, but I do still think there were other forces behind that lynch of mine). As a seer that was the worst possible thing to happen. So I saw the village losing their seer way too early (combined with the fact that the wolves had picked you lovers already) and was frustrated.

I hope you Shasta can see in this light why I was so ****ed off when I met your sarcastic attitude of me being a baddie for certain in here then? After reading both threads now I can see where your distrust arose and I think we both were stupid not willing to listen to each other.

And I was a moron. But let's not discuss that anymore. I'm pretty ashamed of myself enough already.

I just hope you can see now what was the reason behind my flaming annoyance and agitation back there.

We should not let these hot feelings - already calmed on my side I must add - to destroy the game for the village.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Agan's bluff occured in #354. Phantom references it exclusively in #356 (as in, the entire post is about it). Your post #357 is one I'm willing to believe you made soon after, and I'm even willing to buy that you didn't go back and read Agan's and Phantom's posts. What I'm not buying is that you also ignored Fea's #358, Ang's #362, Wilwa's #363, and even if you never went back and read those after having posted your #364, you never acknowledged Phantom's point in #365 about a coded Agan-hint, and you continued to ignore continued references to the trap in Agan's #366, Mith's #367, Wilwa's veiled reference in #368 ("it's pretty clear he's not the Seer"), Ang's #371... even though you posted after that at #374, in response to Phantom's post (the reason I say you never acknowledged the point is that you didn't respond to the difference between 'hint' and 'code' - which Phantom himself mentions in #376.) Agan makes known that she's bluffing in #378, and you didn't even acknowledge that. Loslote makes yet another reference to it in #388 and Agan specifically re-mentions it in #394.

I find it extremely hard to believe you failed to see all of this.

And added to that, you claim to have dreamt of Agan. I'm sure you can see that you said nothing about her being a Lover before her reveal (which is good), but you can also see that does nothing to prove that you're the seer. The fact that you placed Agan high on your list doesn't mean much - it could easily be argued that you, as a cobbler, were putting up people you found innocent as suggestions for wolf-kills - "Maybe if enough people find person X innocent, the wolves will go after them!" It certainly doesn't add to your credibility as much as you seem to think it does. I really am sorry - I was also probably over-harsh, dying early with a role tends to make me mad... but then again, you do tend to bash me after I'm dead. "Oh, Shasta played stupidly, it's his own fault he's dead," et cetera, things you'd probably never say if I was alive to refute them. You really did hurt my feelings, quite a lot - and this isn't the first game you've done so, either.

TL;DR - I'm sorry, but I still can't believe you're the Seer.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

--Nogrod
++Manwe

At this point, given that Nogrod has voted himself, I'm pretty confident that he will, indeed, show up as innocent - which would mean cobbler or Seer (I'm obviously leaning heavily toward the former). Manwe, your role is completely unknown, and Fea has a point - would you mind just confirming for us that you're not a wolf?

[Nogrod]

Rikae: A question concerning the rules.

When Shasta goes back toMorrow is he "only" alive or is he also in here aka. does he have a right to check this dead-thread as well during D3?

It is once again past midnight here and for everyone's sanity I'm not going to hang in here making analyses the whole Night, but if Shasta can check in here on D3 I could actually try to help us looking at the thread tomorrow.



If the answer is negative - as I'm afraid it is - then here's a little for you Shasta.

I say Boro is not a goodie.

I'm afraid some of the old-timer non-suspects Fea, Mith, Ang, Wilwa are wolves. I'd need to check that for any more specified thoughts though. And that will not be tonight as I'm going to sleep now.

phantom is a cobbler as I said. That's knowledge. And I think you already saw that yourself from here.

Lommy, Greenie, Legate... hmm.. It's quite usual I'm this undecided with them. But let's say I'd be surprised if they were all goodies.



Let's see whom we get here toMorrow?


EDIT x'd with Shasta X 2

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Rikae: A question concerning the rules.

When Shasta goes back toMorrow is he "only" alive or is he also in here aka. does he have a right to check this dead-thread as well during D3?

It is once again past midnight here and for everyone's sanity I'm not going to hang in here making analyses the whole Night, but if Shasta can check in here on D3 I could actually try to help us looking at the thread tomorrow.



If the answer is negative - as I'm afraid it is - then here's a little for you Shasta.

I say Boro is not a goodie.

I'm afraid some of the old-timer non-suspects Fea, Mith, Ang, Wilwa are wolves. I'd need to check that for any more specified thoughts though. And that will not be tonight as I'm going to sleep now.

phantom is a cobbler as I said. That's knowledge. And I think you already saw that yourself from here.

Lommy, Greenie, Legate... hmm.. It's quite usual I'm this undecided with them. But let's say I'd be surprised if they were all goodies.



Let's see whom we get here toMorrow?


EDIT x'd with Shasta X 2

I'm allowed to check the results of the Night's vote, but nothing after that, until I'm dead again.

[Mänwe]

I am of course, an innocent. Will be back to comment later.

++Mänwe