The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-16-2004, 09:45 AM   #1
turgon
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Annagroth
Posts: 57
turgon has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril the pride of feanor

HEy! awesome sight. I'm new to the sight. but a lifelong resident of middle-earth.
Heres a question. Had Feanor relented and broke the silmarils For the healing of the trees.Would this have doomed the coming of man? My thinking Is this would have stalled the Noldorins urge to chase Melkor, therefore man would be left without the help of the high elves. The dark one in my opinion would have twisted all of humanity to the very last before the valar would give thought.
turgon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2004, 11:52 AM   #2
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,992
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots

That's an interesting thought turgon (welcome to the Downs by the way ). I get the feeling that mankind may have fallen further and faster, but didn't they need the aid of the Valar in the end regardless? As for Feanor, I think there was not too much of a risk of him ever breaking his lovely jewels.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond

Last edited by Eomer of the Rohirrim; 10-16-2004 at 11:53 AM. Reason: To add to the illusion of my intelligence.
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2004, 12:16 PM   #3
turgon
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Annagroth
Posts: 57
turgon has just left Hobbiton.
Thanks for the welcome Eomer

I still am always struck on how pivotal the sons of finwe are to the unfolding of the song of the ainur and the shaping of arda. While it's true The aid of the valar was a necessary event. I was just pondering that if the silmaril was given for the healing of the trees and feanoro's great spirit was quenched. It follows the sun and moon would not have been created as quickly. and I believe the valar would have turned towards healing the damage the passage of melkor and ungoliant caused. Not the least of which being the rifts amongst the elves. This I think would pave the way for Melkor to have enthralled all the lands without. and men would never gaze upon, or have the wisdom," of those who were from the undying land and had seen the light of the trees." effectively splitting arda and the final battle for the shaping and mastery of arda would have come much quicker. bringing an end to the song with all of man on the side of Morgoth.
turgon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2004, 03:57 PM   #4
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,992
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots

So you think the fight against Melkor would have been much shorter and far less glorious or tragic? I can see that. An interesting point you raise is what would have become of Feanor if the jewels had been broken. Would he have been less fiery, less purposeful in that event?
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2004, 04:56 PM   #5
Carnimírië
Wight
 
Carnimírië's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Avalon
Posts: 222
Carnimírië has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril <------ the jewel of Fëanor

Quote:
An interesting point you raise is what would have become of Feanor if the jewels had been broken. Would he have been less fiery, less purposeful in that event?
Well Fëanor said that if the silmarils were broken he would die, first of all the Eldar in Aman. That would be a great loss because Fëanor is my favorite Elf. But maybe he was speaking in hyperbole. Maybe he would't necessarily die if the silmarils were broken. What do you all think?
Carnimírië is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2004, 05:37 PM   #6
turgon
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Annagroth
Posts: 57
turgon has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril Wellmeant

"not the First" so said mandos. Personally I think it was hyperbole. He would have been chastened in spirit. and perhaps forged to a higher sheen. But my original thought was that the ages beyond the third would never have taken place. The music of the ainur would have been cut short on a foul note had feanor been complacent. and would have served melkor ultimately buy complying to the valar. this would have Allowed morgoth the time to subjugate the world to his will while the valar tarry beyond the boundaries of the mortal world. Melian and Thingol would be overwhelmed thus no beren and luthien no Tuor and no Aragorn.
Fingolfin perhaps would have been emboldend but he would not circumvent the will of manwe as he percieved it. emphasis on percieve. (fingolfin my fav).
Please forgive misspelling
turgon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2004, 03:05 AM   #7
yavanna II
Registered User
 
yavanna II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: in my own little world
Posts: 142
yavanna II has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnimírië
Well Fëanor said that if the silmarils were broken he would die, first of all the Eldar in Aman. That would be a great loss because Fëanor is my favorite Elf. But maybe he was speaking in hyperbole. Maybe he would't necessarily die if the silmarils were broken. What do you all think?
I think so... and I think that he would've given up the sils if his daddy wasn't killed by Morgy, by the way.
yavanna II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2004, 01:03 PM   #8
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,992
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots

But why would he die if the jewels were broken?
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2004, 01:31 PM   #9
turgon
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Annagroth
Posts: 57
turgon has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

I don't think he would have physically. and thats a good point by yavanna. But his spirit would have. which I think would have served Melkor much more then anything else.
turgon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2004, 09:17 PM   #10
Elladan and Elrohir
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halls of Mandos
Posts: 332
Elladan and Elrohir has just left Hobbiton.
The breaking was kinda a moot point because even as Feanor spoke, his father was being slain and the Silmarilli stolen by Morgoth. Obviously, though, Feanor's decision had a great impact on his next big decision...

I feel certain that if the Noldor had stayed home instead of chasing Morgoth and the Silmarils, the Sindar and the Edain would not have thus been doomed. I don't believe the Valar would neglect them and leave them to the tyranny and oppression of the Great Enemy, and even if they did, Eru Iluvatar certainly would not.

This all is entwined with the Great Music. In Eru's plan, even evil would ultimately work for good. We can be sure that it was not his plan for the Noldor to rebel against the Valar and go back to Middle-earth, but he still used it for good, as they began the War of the Great Jewels against Morgoth, which preserved the lives of the Sindar and the Edain. We can be equally certain that if the Noldor had not left Valinor, everything would still have worked out all right (as all right as it can be, anyway) in the end.

As a Catholic, Tolkien was a strong believer in the sovereignty of God, and this definitely carries over in The Silmarillion. His God is a flexible one, whose plans are ultimately disrupted by the shortcomings of his creatures. This is the context in which we must view the rebellion of the Noldor.
__________________
"If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door."

THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING
Elladan and Elrohir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 06:04 AM   #11
Numenorean
Haunting Spirit
 
Numenorean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bay of Eldanna
Posts: 94
Numenorean has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril Certainly uncertain

Really intriguing post Turgon, and welcome too.

Elladan:
Quote:
I feel certain that if the Noldor had stayed home instead of chasing Morgoth and the Silmarils, the Sindar and the Edain would not have thus been doomed. I don't believe the Valar would neglect them and leave them to the tyranny and oppression of the Great Enemy, and even if they did, Eru Iluvatar certainly would not.
I do not know how you can be so absolutely certain given that:

a) The Valar displayed great naiveity when dealing with Melkor/Morgoth - they seemed to lack the ability to comprehend the nature and reality of his evil purpose. Even after he masterminded the destruction of the Trees, the rape of the Silmarils and the abhorrent slaying of Finwe in their Holy Realm, they were desperately inactive in their response. Surely the time for War of Wrath was before Morgoth had a chance to return entrenched to his fortress dungeon, rebuild his dark legions and ruin so many more innocents in the meantime?

b) Beleriand was about to fall anyway just before the timely and unlooked for return of the Noldo and their great victory at the Battle-under-Stars.

c) The only Valar who had any direct dealings with Men (before Tuors meeting with Ulmo on the shores of Nevrast) was Morgoth, and according to HoME this brought about their first - and in some cases permanent - fall.

d) The supposition that even if the Valar deserted Men, Eru would not, is based purely on faith. Everything came forth from Eru, good and evil besides, so relying purely on the goodwill of an unfathomable entity whose essense clearly contains both light and dark seems a bit like wishful thinking.

e) Tolkien was a Catholic but he stated time and again that he hated allegory and direct comparrisons between his Legendarium and his real world faith. So to say that the only way to view the rebellion of the Noldor is within the context of our worlds Catholicism seems seriously open to debate.

Maybe I'm too cynical today and I'm sorry if this seems a bit contentious Elladan, its just that I cant remotely presume let alone be certain that: "if the Noldor had not left Valinor, everything would still have worked out all right (as all right as it can be, anyway) in the end."
__________________
'…Avallónë, the haven of the Eldar upon Eressëa, easternmost of the Undying Lands, and thence at times the Firstborn still would come sailing to Númenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset…'
Numenorean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 01:35 PM   #12
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

Men came when the sun rose... the sun was born because the trees died... so if Feanor used his sils to keep the trees alive then there would be no men, right?

It seems to me that the trees were supposed to die, and Feanor's refusal to wear his jewels to the feast (which allowed Morgoth to steal them and take them out of reach) ensured that the trees would die and that men would soon awaken.
Quote:
and would have served melkor ultimately buy complying to the valar. this would have Allowed morgoth the time to subjugate the world to his will while the valar tarry beyond the boundaries of the mortal world. Melian and Thingol would be overwhelmed thus no beren and luthien no Tuor and no Aragorn.
I agree.
Quote:
I feel certain that if the Noldor had stayed home instead of chasing Morgoth and the Silmarils, the Sindar and the Edain would not have thus been doomed.
Why?

When Feanor arrived in Beleriand it was days (maybe hours) away from being conquered. There were two safe places left, with Cirdan and with Thingol- and Cirdan was just about finished when the orcs attacking him were drawn off by Feanor and his sons.

And what chance did Doriath, unaided, have against Morgoth, Sauron, the Balrogs, and their armies of orcs?

And once Doriath is gone, what's left? Roaming dark-elves with crap weapons? I don't think they'd last long. Only the dwarves in their caves would survive, but Morgoth would likely go after them as soon as he was able.
Quote:
We can be sure that it was not his plan for the Noldor to rebel against the Valar and go back to Middle-earth
We can be sure? Here's what Tolkien said-
Quote:
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reëstablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm....[at the time of the War of Wrath] Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind...he had fallen to like being a tyrant king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
It appears that is was the best plan for the Noldor to chase Morgoth.
Quote:
I don't believe the Valar would neglect them and leave them to the tyranny and oppression of the Great Enemy
Why? The Valar don't have a good track record when it comes to dealing with Morgoth. This was what Tolkien said about the first time Melkor was captured by the Valar-
Quote:
Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel
As you can see, the Valar have a history of dragging their feet. All of Middle-Earth probably would've been under Morgoth's foot by the time they decided to do something. Don't put so much faith in the Valar and Manwe. Tolkien said this about Manwe-
Quote:
[Manwë] has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering-- even "keeping the status quo"- to the loss of all creative power, and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations.
Hee hee. If you want to put absolute faith in someone who has "weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations", then go ahead, but don't expect me to agree.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2004, 08:01 PM   #13
Voralphion
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sharkey's End
Posts: 267
Voralphion has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Even if Feanor did agree that the jewels should be broken for the healing of the trees, it is possible that the Noldor would have gone after Melkor for the reason that he had killed their king Finwe.
If the Noldor did not go and follow Morgoth, I think the Valar would have done something in order to save the Sindar and men. One of their reasons for not intervening earlier was that they wanted to punish the noldor for their rebellion and arrogance that they could overcome a valar. Valinor wouldn't have been hidden against any return from middle earth, and so the Teleri, probably under Cirdan could have sent a ship asking for help which they would have given.
__________________
His sword was long his lance was keen
His shining helm afar was seen
The countless stars of heavens field
Were mirrored in his silver shield
Voralphion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2004, 09:37 PM   #14
turgon
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Annagroth
Posts: 57
turgon has just left Hobbiton.
White Tree voralphion

I am pulling from memory and not the book so i ask forgiveness but i don't remember the noldor wishing to overcome the valar before the unjust slaying of finwe or the trees. The pride of feanoro was the chord of the song of ainur
turgon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2004, 08:02 PM   #15
Voralphion
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sharkey's End
Posts: 267
Voralphion has just left Hobbiton.
When I said overcome a valar, I meant Morgoth. I think in the doom of Mandos spoken to them as they were leaving, it mentions that they cannot overcome any of the valar in Arda, and it was arrogance to think they could.
__________________
His sword was long his lance was keen
His shining helm afar was seen
The countless stars of heavens field
Were mirrored in his silver shield
Voralphion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2004, 11:21 PM   #16
Morgul Queen
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Morgul Queen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dontgonearthe Castle
Posts: 414
Morgul Queen has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Morgul Queen
White Tree

Quote:
I think so... and I think that he would've given up the sils if his daddy wasn't killed by Morgy, by the way.
Morgy would like to take a moment to say that she had absolutle nothing to do with it, it was all Melkie's fault and that he relinquished that nickname to her after she offered her minionship to him after which he promtly got stuck with the nick 'Melkie'.

Sorry...my brain tends to take over sometimes...

And I, too, think he may have given up the Silmarilli had it not been for the Death of Finwe.

Of course, he didn't really have a choice in the matter as ol' Melkie had already run off with the Sparklies by this point so I guess it's moot, eh?
__________________
Athrabeth
*is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King*
Oh...and call me Morgy!
Morgul Queen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2004, 12:04 PM   #17
turgon
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Annagroth
Posts: 57
turgon has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Moot? perhaps..yet it's when the wings of fantasy grasp my fallible mind I almost always find myself drifting across the timescape to the edges of valinor. floating thru the airs above the ocean I see the mingling lights of the trees just over the mountains as they fade a final time; the stars are enhanced where there was once light of the blessed realm as a mighty shadow of darkness passes to my right... woops sorry, lost myself.
Seriously, what I have been wondering in relation to Finwe and kiddies is how pivotal they were/are to the song of the Ainur.--

"But Iluvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.
Then Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery."...Ainulindale

Was the second theme of Iluvater the elves, specifically Feanor. In laymens terms was Feanor the lead guitar for Iluvater.
__________________
"What I have left behind I count now no loss, needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages"
" MIGHT IS RIGHT, DISSENT IS INTOLERABLE"
turgon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2004, 09:02 PM   #18
Morgul Queen
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Morgul Queen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dontgonearthe Castle
Posts: 414
Morgul Queen has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Morgul Queen
White Tree

Heck, no! He was on the Drums. Melkie was on lead Guitar and started on an impromtu solo just when the Theme of the Elves started.

*bets it was an electric guitar*
__________________
Athrabeth
*is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King*
Oh...and call me Morgy!
Morgul Queen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2004, 06:33 AM   #19
Amrod the Hunter
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dol Amroth
Posts: 54
Amrod the Hunter has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Amrod the Hunter
Pipe

Maybe it would destroy Men,but I personaly think that Valar would still chase Morgoth,because he was the greatest threat to them and to everything they created,so Men would get help.Of course,there still would be many victims,but I think Feanor would not die.
Amrod the Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:04 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.