What would water and fire do to the Nazgul?

[Kalimac]

My question is just that. In the notes to "Unfinished Tales" Christopher Tolkien mentions that his father was not completely consistent with his descriptions of the Nazgul; how early on he didn't conceive of their fear of water, but then he emphasized that later on (they don't want to go into a river, they much prefer crossing over a bridge). When Elrond calls up the water to wash the Nazgul away it seems to put them out of commission for several weeks before they get back to Mordor and become re-horsed, so to speak. And obviously they fear fire, as we see in "Weathertop" where one man and four hobbits in various states of disarray manage to fend off FIVE of them just by using torches. So what did fire and water do to them exactly that made them so afraid of it? There's probably an explanation in something I haven't yet read, but if anyone has any ideas I'd really like to hear them. Thanks!

[Lyliac]

well, i think the movie version of weathertop was a little off. the nazgul, i think, aren't neccesarily 'afriad' of water, they just prefer not to go into it.

[Kalimac]

I wasn't thinking of the movie version - it's mentioned in the notes to the "Unfinished Tales" that the Nazgul feared water as well as fire. It didn't seem all that clear in the movie version that they were afraid, they just looked like they were having a bit of a confab on the edge of the ford to decide what they should do...And for Weathertop, there were five Nazgul there and Aragorn somehow managed to get rid of them (with some hobbit help) by fending them off with torches. They were in a dell in the book, which gives you more cover than the open space they were in in the movie, but still, five Nazgul vs. one Ranger and four panicking hobbits wouldn't seem like too great a set of odds.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Birdland]

As I understood it, the "attack" of the waters of Bruinen did nothing to the Nazgul. It just killed their horses and destroyed the cloaks that gave "shape to their shapelessness". (I think that is the quote.) Which left them to walk back to Mordor? Or maybe thumb a ride?

I've never been real clear on just what are the powers and limitations of the Ring Wraiths. They don't behave like the "normal" ghosts and evil spirits we've all grown up with. No traveling with the speed of thought. No walking through walls. No possessions of corporeal beings. Sometimes it seems that their powers changed at the whims of their creator. (Tolkien, that is, not Sauron. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

And come to think of it why did Frodo's barrow-blade NOT kill a Nazgul, but Merry's blade did? They were both stabbed in the foot, weren't they? (The only place a Hobbit can usually stab you.) I'm I forgetting something obvious?

[Sharkû]

One theory of mine is that the Nazgûl were rather powerless when it came to actual battle prowess. It is often stated that their main weapon was fear.
Therefore, they are threatened by people whp are fearless, such as Éowyn and Merry, and Aragorn in that occassion, too. Eowyn and Merry no longer feared for their lives on the Pelennor; and Aragorn knew he had to do all in his power to save the Ringbearer. The Witch-King fleeing from Earnur would be another example (and having a reincarnated angelic Elf-lord pursuing him didn't help either).

This would explain at least the situation at Weathertop rather nicely. They were afraid of fire and water, for whatever reason -- the pure physical side is less important here, I think; rather the spiritual connotations (such as the power of the Lord of Water) -- but their being afraid on Weathertop was more due to Aragorn. And it probably was a tactical retreat anyway.

[Kalimac]

Actually Birdland, I'm not sure that Frodo's barrow-blade did stab the Nazgul - afterwards Strider picks up a piece of black cloth and says this was the only hurt Frodo did to him, so maybe Frodo just sliced off a piece of his robe and didn't actually touch his body, or whatever you would call it. (Dramatically it was probably just as well - imagine if the Witch-King had fallen 1,500 pages earlier. Kind of takes away from the whole Siege of Minas Tirith scene). Sharku has a point though - lack of fear, though I don't know if Merry was so much fearless as just overcome by despair - the frame of mind that says "I might as well, I'm dead either way."

Re what you said about their not acting like normal ghosts - that's a good point. It also makes you wonder, why on earth did the Ringwraiths wear robes and ride steeds (winged or hoofed) in the first place? Certainly "their chief power was to inspire terror" and the black robes certainly help, but they're also quite a Look At Me - Frodo could see them from quite a distance. Wouldn't it have made more sense for them not to wear anything so they could sneak up on the Ringbearer unnoticed (if not unfelt)? Or were they not able to physically seize him unless they had physical gloves/robes/steeds to carry him in? Sorry, I'm not trying to divert the topic from fire/water fear (I still have no idea about the answer to that) just expand it a little.

[Sharkû]

There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20 [the slaying of the Witch-King] the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.) - Letter 210, on the actions on Weathertop

Neither did Frodo stab a Nazgûl, thus; had he, the Wraith would indeed have perished.

[Birdland]

I've never gotten the feeling that the Nazgul DID fear water. They didn't follow the hobbits across the Brandywine at the ferry because it was too deep for their horses to swim. And they were perfectly willing to cross at the Ford of Bruinen; it was only the Guardian of the Ford that defeated them.

That is the reason some held back and had to be driven into the Bruinen by the rear attack of Glorfindel. They knew their horses would die in the rocks and waves. But Glorfindel in all his "First Born" glory scared them and drove their horses into a panic, so they dived blindly into the water to be swept away.

I think it might have been the same with Aragorn. They feared the light of his spirit more than the torch he was carrying.

[Thingol]

I don't know about them being physically impotent, Sharku. The Witch King shatters a shield with his mace and breaks Éowyn's arm in the process. To actually shatter a shield requires a tremendous amount of strength (my uncle has one [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) I've always thought the reason the Ringwraiths retreated was because they believed that Frodo could not hold out against the wound from the Morgul blade and they wanted the ring bearer to suffer before they took him. I do not envision much fighting in the scene, let alone the Nazgul actually being driven off by Aragorn. I did not like the movie portrayl at all, I've always believed that the Nazgul chose to retreat. Perhaps they were afraid of being robbed of their raiment or even being slain by Aragorn and they did not want to take a chance. It is easy to underestimate the power of the Ulari, but remember Gandalf says that not even Glorfindel (a very, very powerful elf that killed a Balrog) and Aragorn could stand against the 9 alone.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

I don't know about them being physically impotent, Sharku.

Of course they are! When was the last time you heard of a Nazgûl having kids?

[Thingol]

lol, don't make fun of my word usage [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Nazgûl Queen]

<center><font color="red">I think that another reason why we Nazgul try to avoid fire and water is because of our cloaks. Without garments we can't do anything and it takes a long time to get a new one. So it makes a strange kind of sense that xwe'd stay away from fire which would burn our cloaks up and water which could sweep it off and away.
Does that make sense?

[Birdland]

Exactly, N.Q. Fire and water do no harm to Ring Wraiths themselves. But it can harm their steeds or the cloaks they have to wear. More of an inconvenience than anything else. It's not like they're going to melt or anything.

Q: What do you call a Nazgul in a river?
A: Soggy.

[Orodhromeus]

About the Nazgul fearing fire... When the Lord of the Nazgul was at the top of his strength was during the siege of Minas Tirith. And most of the terrain of the Pelennor was covered with fire, Orcs had torches, catapults threw fireballs... Everything was closely orchestrated by the head Nazgul. So I don't think they feared fire.

[Gorin Icearms]

Ever seen Predator? Personally I think fire might have had a similar affect on the Nazgul.

Although I really have no clue. Maybe fire does hurt them. Because Aragorn said on Weathertop,

Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it.

[Joy]

I think that the RingWaiths did fear fire. Yes, as Gorin said,
quote:
---------------------------------------------
Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it.
---------------------------------------------

Fire can be evil, such as the balrog, but also good, the Flame Imperishable. When those that are good weild the fire, it is fearsome to the enemy. Just as Gandalf, who was a wielder of the Secret Fire, the flame of Anor was a threat to the balrog, the dark fire, the flame of Undún.

[O'Boile]

Thingol, loved your post about how the nazgul simply waited for the blade to do its work. That is something I like about LOTR, people don't risk themselves uneccessarily. The wraiths probably could have won, but they may have lost a couple of their number. Why not wait untill they can command Frodo? Would you risk your life if you felt it was just a matter of time.
I also hated the movie depiction... Aragorn could never have won the fight like that. It even says so in UT... the rangers could not defend the shire from the nazgul, even had their captain been with them.

In old European (maybe pago-Christian) ghost-lore it is always held that spirits cannot cross running water, as it is pure. Stagnant water can collect disease and foulness, but running water washes all these things away and purifies itself - it is thus seen as holy, evidenced by the fact that as springs and rivers are relatively rare they were worshipped by all European (and probably more) pagan civilisations as being inhabited by gods.
Thus, this idea of running water being a bit like holy water would have influenced Tolkien, as it comes from the same old Norse family tales which tell that Trolls trun into stone in the sun and that evil spirits cannot wander in the sun/are revelaed (even the Nazgul cast a shadow in the midday sun).
As for fire, could this be because they are more beasts than men now (not in intelligance but becasue of their barbarism), and that thus they are scared of fire as animals are? Certainly fire was even more revered in ancient times than water as yet another sustainer of life and purifier - could this 'holy' aspect scare the Nazgul? IMHO, I wouldn't be surprised if salt scared them too - though throwing fish and chips at them is less impressive that drowning them at the Ford of Bruinien. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Angmar_the_Horrible]

@Kalimac: It would make no sense for the
Nazgul to go "naked", they can't approach
a person or a location unnoticed. As Tolkien
says in the UT, the aura of fear and terror
around them is EVEN BIGGER when they are not
dressed.

As for the scene at Weathertop and their fear
of fire: I agree with Thingol, they were sure
Frodo would fall for them after the knife
attack.
And I don't think it were the torches that
made them go: it was the unexpected presence
of Aragorn and, not to forget, the elvish
words of Frodo: "Elbereth! Oh Gilthoniel!"
I think THAT was worst for the Nazgul.

They left on their own accord (at Weathertop) after they stabbed Frodo, they would have left even if Strider hadn't scared them off with torches. I guess they figured that their work was done and that the ring coulden't travel any further and they were waiting for the other wraithes before they finish the job.

~~~~~~~~~~
Let's hunt some Orc - Aragorn

[akhtene]

Hi, cat eyes! Welcome to the Downs! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

The wraiths may have left Weatherto because they senced a weapon really deadly for them. And anywhay they believed they could wait for Frodo to subdue to the wound and the power of the Ring.

As for their 'fear' of water and fire, I think that's because these are two of the basic elements of the world. I don't believe that fire and water could really scare the wraiths, but probably made them very uncomfortable, as the wraiths did not belong to this world any more. So the wraiths probably avoided water or fire whenever they could, but were quite able to endure them when their task demanded it. It's like a man who cannot swim won't wonder into a river unless to save someone's or his own life.

[O'Boile]

In response to some of the previous posts, I still don't think that Merry killed the witch king. I don't see how a sword, created by men, can undo the power of a ring of power. I think Merry just stabs the witch king in the knee and Eowyn finishes him off with a blow to the head. If it were otherwise, and all you had to do was stab the witch king with a sword made by the westernesse than he probably would have not been feared so much in the early third age. The point was that he is supposed to be difficult to kill.

That is the reason some held back and had to be driven into the Bruinen by the rear attack of Glorfindel. They knew their horses would die in the rocks and waves. But Glorfindel in all his "First Born" glory scared them and drove their horses into a panic, so they dived blindly into the water to be swept away.

The Nazgul did hold back, but they did enter the water and almost crossed. They didn't know of the coming tidal wave. Yes, they were afraid of water, BUT they dismissed there fears because of the drawing of the One ring. It was so close that they momentarily forgot of their fears.

I think that another reason why we Nazgul try to avoid fire and water is because of our cloaks. Without garments we can't do anything and it takes a long time to get a new one. So it makes a strange kind of sense that xwe'd stay away from fire which would burn our cloaks up and water which could sweep it off and away.

The garments and horses where only disguises they were given. If there garments were destroyed, so what? They unleash more fear when uncloaked. If they lost there horses, it was something that delayed them, more critical, but not something to fear water and fire over. Horses can swim!

[Angmar_the_Horrible]

@O'Boile: Of course Eowyn finished the Witch-
King off, but she wouldn't have been able to
without the help of Merry and his Sword from
Westernesse. Quote from ROTK: "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking
the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his
will."
It was a very special sword, and Eowyn only
had a ordinary blade from Rohan. Without the
stabbing by Merry, she could have hit the
WK for an hour - with no effect. And Merry
helped her more than just with his blade.
After the WK attacked her, she was kind of
paralysed, if Merry wouldn't had shouted at
her to "wake her up", the Witch - Kins's next
attack would have killed her. To be honest,
in my opinion she only "finished him up" by
great luck, to me it wasn't that heroic.

Um just a note,but was'nt Aragorn wearing the Ring of Barahir at Weathertop?If my assumption is correct,then maybe it ALSO had something to do with them being scared off...

as i remember the nazgul fear floating water because of its similarity to the stream of time. don`t ask me why they fear time. i read that somewhere, tolkien did say that.
maybe its the same with fire, but can´t remember that. have to read more.
it is also possible that the always renewing aspect of water plays a role. nazguls as a destructive force want to rule. and that contain to count your property. life, time and "floating water" cannot be ruled in that way. they are ever growing and changing. you can kill someone, but life itself doesen´t end. you can built a damm, but water always finds a way. these are the main forces of the world. and remember the nazgul were only men once. and even now they are not comparable to to everlasting principles that were made by mightier creatures as they are.
maybe overinterprated, but think of it.

[Rumil]

Is it possible that fire and water interfered with the vision (or perception) of the ringwraiths?

Assuming their vision was similar to that of Frodo or Sam when wearing the one ring, everything was quite misty or blurry except powerful objects and individuals (Glorfindel and The Ring).

They also appear to be less powerful the further they go from Sauron.

Perhaps at Weathertop they were a bit worried that Gandalf might come back and zap them if they hung around too long so relied on the Morgul dagger doing its dirty work.

[Durialion]

Well maybe water is like a sustance that makes them melt or something.

[Shadowstrife911]

I was under the impression that without their cloaks they were shapeless forms, so when the waters washed them away it dismounted them from their horses and washed their cloaks away. They then had to go back to Mordor to take form again within their cloaks. (getting new cloaks I suppose?) In this same way they would be wary of fire because it could incinerate their cloaks.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowstrife911 ]

If the Nazgûl did fear water, wouldn't it have taken the longer to get to the Shire? Because if they did fear water, they would have to out of their way to cross the bridges ovey the Anduin and all the other rivers.

---------------------------------

"Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness.
The Tower trembles; to the tombs of kings
doom approaches. The Dead awaken;
for the hour has come for the oathbreakers:
at the Stone of Erech they shall stand again
and hear there a horn in the hills ringing.
Whose shall the horn be? Who shall call them
from the grey twilight, the forgotten people?
The heir of him to whom the oath they swore.
From the North shall he come, need shall drive him:
he shall pass the Door to the Paths of the Dead."

[Manwe Sulimo]

I am almost certain that there is a sentence in UT saying that the Nazgûl were fearful (or at least wary) of water. Unfortunately, I do not have my copy right now, but I will be getting it back tomorrow, so I'll try to post the quote then.

Feral droches say "narg!"

[Manwe Sulimo]

HERE IT IS:

All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone in daylight; and all, again save the Witch-king, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge.

The footnote appended to this quote reads:

At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn.

And more....

[Sauron] had these two additional objects: to capture or kill Gollum, or at least to deprive his enemies of him; and the force the passage of the bridge of Osgiliath, so that the Nazgûl could cross, while testing the strength of Gondor.

Immediately after this Christopher Tolkien writes:

My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths' fear of water.....it was said that "[Khamûl] was well aware that the Ring had crossed the [Brandywine]; but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement," and that the Nazgûl would not touch the "Elvish" waters of Baranduin. But it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path, such as the Greyflood, where there was only "a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge". My father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain.

I haven't been able to find anything about the effects of Fire on the Nazgûl, but if I do, I'll be sure to post it.

[Melian]

Could it be possible that the Nazgul feared not the water but Ulmo? Since he "lived" in the water, perhaps they didn´t want to mess with him...

[Keeper of the Feet of Melkor]

They didn't like water...that doesn't mean they're afraid of it

The water would slow down their travle and the fire would destroy their cloths that keept them to middle earth. Without their cloths, their souls go back to Mordor to regain their bodies. It takes them not long to do this, Saroun has so much power that its taking him about 3,000 years to get his body back without his ring.

[Novberaid]

This question comes up in The People's Guide to J.R.R. Tolkien. Stating briefly only the Witch King and two others went into the River. The river was commanded by Elrond. Remember Elrond has the Ring of Power, the Water Ring. The Nazgul could probably sense this power and only their connection to The One Ring would have drawn them into the river.

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

It is said that the Nazgul are neither living nor dead so i think it has nothing to do with the connection to ghosts that was mentioned earlier. I agree that they retreated and were not driven off. I think they were trying to wait for a time when they could attack with all nine Nazgul. They knew that they could'nt get the ring at that particular time so they left, besides they had stabbed Frodo with a Morgul-Blade and why fight now when you can come back and fight later when the ring-bearer is a lot weaker.

[Voralphion]

Remember Elrond has the Ring of Power, the Water Ring

No he didn't. Elrond had Vilya, the ring of air, Galadriel had the ring of water, Nenya.

I believe one of the reasons the Nazgul feared water was because Sauron had no control over it. Throughout middle earth, water represents something pure and good. Even in tthe first age wateer kept Morgoth from doing many things because of the power of Ulmo. I think the same is true here, it has to do wih h power of ulmo.

[FingolfintheBold]

I have a theory about about Merry'sstabbing of the Witch King. I always sort of thought of the blade not so much as causing physical harm to the wraith as maybe breaking his will power and cleaving throught watever spell held him together. There might be something in the books i took this from, and maybe not. After the wraith's gaurd was down, Eowyn put in her blade to finish things off. Thoughts?

As lots of people have said the Nazgul are probabaly a bit scared but fire would burn their cloaks and then they wouldn't have their element of fear and water has the same reason.On Weathertop Frodo just cut the ringwraith's cloak,not hurt him.If Frodo had "hurt" him then the siege of Minas Tirith would be a bit of a waste and then again their goes their fear element.