Other Palantiri?

[zxcvbn]

The Palantiri of the Numenoreans were oringinally gifts from the Noldor of Tol Eressea. Over time, they were all lost except for two. But since they were made by the Noldor, did the Noldor exiles in Middle Earth have more Palantiri with them? I can imagine Celebrindor(descendant of Feanor and Lord of Eregion) having one, and Gil-Galad(he would've used it to keep in touch with Elendil) and maybe even Galadriel. At the end of the Third Age Elven Lords like Elrond and Galadriel saw and knew what was happening in much of Middle Earth even from afar. Could this be attributed to Palantir use?
About Elrond and Galadriel:

But Elrond saw many things and read many hearts.

and

The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires.

About Denethor:

And the Lord Denethor is unlike other men: he sees far.

and

He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off.

I see a link between the first two and the last two lines.

[The Might]

No. Only seven were brought to Middle-earth.
They were made by Feanor and we know he made at least eight, seven of which were given by the Elves to Amandil, at that time chief of the Faithful, who later passed them on to Elendil who brought them to M-e and of course one other palantir that remained in the Undying Lands - the Master-stone in the Tower of Avallone on Tol Eressea.

As far as Elrond's or Galadriel's skills are concerned, I recommend the essay Osanwé-kenta by Pengolodh that deals with the topic of such powers linked with the power of the spirit.

[zxcvbn]

I'm not talking about the Palantiri of Numenor. What I'm asking is wouldn't the Noldor who stayed behind on Middle Earth have some with them?

[The Might]

As we are told of none I doubt it.
Why should any exist then?
Palantiri are instruments of great use, so I am sure that their presence in Rivendell or Lórien would have been mentioned...since I guess they would have perhaps made contact to the Orthanc-stone to discuss with Saruman and stuff like that.
Had the elves of Middle-earth other palantiri, they would have become aware of Sauron's possesion of the Ithil-stone much sooner, which in the book is not the case.
Again, simply the fact that other such important objects are not mentioned speaks against their existence.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Note also that the Stone of Emyn Beraid remained in the Elves' keeping, in fact they made pilgrimages to look in it: which I think implies strongly that was the only one available to them.

I suppose it's worth wondering whether The Noldor brought any of the Stones into Exile with them.

Arguing for this view is the fact that they wound up in Eressea, not Valinor. However, it might be considered that Finarfin had gone all Vanya in the interim and was no longer interested in hi-tech gadgets, so just handed them over. Indeed it appears the Eresseans had no more use for them by the late Second Age, perhaps due to developed powers of Osanwe or something.

Arguing against this view is the fact that they are never mentioned in the First Age legends: indeed at the Nirnaeth Fingon and Maedhros had to communicate by beacon; nor did anyone have contact with Turgon (whom one might assume to have had one). However, it is likely the case that Tolkien never got around to backwriting the Palantiri into the pre-existing legends.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Note also that the Stone of Emyn Beraid remained in the Elves' keeping, in fact they made pilgrimages to look in it: which I think implies strongly that was the only one available to them.

Did they? Could you post where this is written (the quotation if possible)? I know Círdan's elves were guarding it, but that does not mean they used it. And also about these pilgrimages, could you post the reference? I believe it is not known whether since Elendil anyone looked in it (it is presumed that no one did).

[Mithalwen]

Gildor's group were pilgrims to the palantir of the tower hills. I thinkit is stated explicitly somewhere. Possibly in the Road goes ever on in which "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" is translated fully revealing it to relate the experience of looking towards Valinor. I think that palantir was fixed to look westwards.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Gildor's group were pilgrims to the palantir of the tower hills. I thinkit is stated explicitly somewhere.

Definitely not in LotR. If in HoME or anything, then of course, whatever.

And yes, the Palantír was focused to look only westwards, Elendil used it to look in the direction of fallen Númenor and Eressëa.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Definitely not in LotR. If in HoME or anything, then of course, whatever.

And yes, the Palantír was focused to look only westwards, Elendil used it to look in the direction of fallen Númenor and Eressëa.

Possibly UT. But I think it is in "The Road.." but I will have to check and get back to you if noone else can be more certain.

[Aiwendil]

It is from The Road Goes Ever On:

No doubt Gildor and his companions (Vol. I., Chap. 3), since they appear to have been going eastward, were Elves living in or near Rivendell returning from the palantír of the Tower Hills. On such visits they were sometimes rewarded by a vision, clear but remote, of Elbereth, as a majestic figure, shining white, standing upon the mountain Oiolosse (S. Uilos). It was then that she was also addressed by the title Fanuilos.

[The Might]

Ok, so back to the topic, there really simply is no proof of their existence, and as such we must believe they did not exist.
The quotes provided in the first post can be easily explained considering the innate powers of the Elves, so there really isn't any reason to think that other palantiri existed in M-e.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Possibly UT. But I think it is in "The Road.." but I will have to check and get back to you if noone else can be more certain.

It's in the essay on the palantiri in section 4 of the unfinished tales. I rember it mentioned six in a sort of ring plus the one that looked west. By the way a minor point as far as I can tell there were three Palatiri remaing in the thir age not two- the Orthanc Stone(Saruman's), the Anor Stone (Denethor's), and the Ithil stone (Sauron's). The Osgiliath stone (The largest they say; it was supposed to take four strong men to move it) was lost in the Anduin when Osgiliath fell the first time. Amon Sul's was also an oversize and was also destroyed (though I don't remember how) that leaves the location and status of one stone unknown. I've alaway like the idea that this last stone is or a least was somehwhere on Tindrock. The idea would be that, when it was running the information gathered on Amon Hen and Amon Llaw would be sent to a central garriosn procted on Tindrock where a trusted and trained indvidual would send the message via said palatir to the king, so he could react to any threats quickly.

[zxcvbn]

STW mde an interesting point about how Tolkien never wrote the Palantiri into his First Age legends.

I have a theory on why the Elves of Rivendell and Lorien(if they had Palantiri) never made contact with the Orthanc and Ithil Stones. The Palantiri of Numenor were 'configured' solely for the Numenoreans' use and were used for administering their large kingdoms. Maybe they could only communicate with other Numenorean Palantiri. Other Palantiri like those of Rivendell and Lorien(provided they existed) would not be configured to communicate with Numenorean palantiri and therefore could not be used to, say, contact Orthanc.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

I have a theory on why the Elves of Rivendell and Lorien(if they had Palantiri) never made contact with the Orthanc and Ithil Stones. The Palantiri of Numenor were 'configured' solely for the Numenoreans' use and were used for administering their large kingdoms. Maybe they could only communicate with other Numenorean Palantiri. Other Palantiri like those of Rivendell and Lorien(provided they existed) would not be configured to communicate with Numenorean palantiri and therefore could not be used to, say, contact Orthanc.

It would be interesting, but then, why didn't Elrond or Galadriel use these Palantíri - well, in that it would have been mentioned? (as it was said before) Besides that, I believe the Ithil-stone was so strong that all the Palantíri were drawn to it. Also, I just read the chapter "The Palantír". It was obviously after a loong time, if ever, when Gandalf encountered such a thing. Would Elrond have his Palantír hidden from Gandalf? And Galadriel? Why? These things would come handy to the Council. And Saruman would have known. Definitely. There is no way he couldn't. At minimum, he would have known that there were such things and that they still existed and were placed somewhere.

If there were any Palantíri among the Elves, I would expect them to be with Círdan at maximum, but why - when - would they be transported to Rivendell? By the time Elrond settled down there, it was supposed to be a remote "war camp", so to say.

Galadriel had her Mirror. What would she do with the Palantír? Or, where was the Palantír when she was looking into the Mirror?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by The Might

As far as Elrond's or Galadriel's skills are concerned, I recommend the essay Osanwé-kenta by Pengolodh that deals with the topic of such powers linked with the power of the spirit.

Yes, good pointer! After reading that, I've developed the theory that one of the functions of the Rings of Power, at the very least the three Elven Rings, was to enhance (or maybe to attempt to bestow or even corrupt the skill in the case of the Seven and Nine) this skill. And that would also answer the quotes that zxcvbn brings up about Elrond and Galadriel. Why would they need Palantiri if the Rings had this function? Though of course this idea must be tempered by the fact that they had to keep their Rings hidden after Sauron created the One.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The 'missing' palantir was that of Annuminas- it was lost with Arvedui, together with that of Amon Sul (which was rescued, not destroyed, when the fortress fell)

[The Might]

Yep, sorry to disappoint you Alfirin, but as stated in LotR no man or beast had ever set foot on that island.

I must agree with Lalwende, I also believe that the Rings might have somehow enhanced the link between the bearers.

[zxcvbn]

A question on the Palantir of the Tower Hills. The appendices say that Elrond took it with him when he left Middle Earth. But since it was the Palantir of Elendil, didn't it belong to Aragorn by right? Why didn't Elrond give it to Aragorn during his coronation? Greedy, thieving Elves!

[The Might]

Well, just read through the essay in UT again anf two quotations I found interesting:

Actually they must normally have been used by such deputies. Each Stone had its own warden, one of whose duties was to "survey the Stone" at regular intervals, or when commanded, or in times of need.

It must however be noted with regard to the narrative of The Lord of the Rings that over and above such deputed authority, even hereditary, any "heir of Elendil" (that is, a recognized descendant occupying a throne or lordship in the Númenórean realms by virtue of this descent) had the right to use any of the palantíri. Aragorn thus claimed the right to take the Orthanc-stone into his possession, since it was now, for the time being, without owner or warden; and also because he was de jure the rightful King of both Gondor and Arnor, and could, if he willed, for just cause withdraw all previous grants to himself.

And about the Elendil-stone:

One only remained in the North, the Elendil Stone on Emyn Beraid, but this was one of special properties, and not employable in communications. Hereditary right to use it would no doubt still reside in the "heir of Isildur," the recognized chieftain of the Dunedain, and descendant of Arvedui. But it is not known whether any of them, including Aragorn, ever looked into it, desiring to gaze into the lost West. This Stone and its tower were maintained and guarded by Círdan and the Elves of Lindon.

So, as a conclusion, it seems that Aragorn was indeed at that time its rightful owner, while the Elves were its appointed wardens.
Considering the last quotation, I guess that Men no longer were supposed to look to the west and so Aragorn gave up his hereditary right and gave it to its wardens.
Why exactly the Elves took it to the West, I can only guess. Maybe Men were not meant to gaze in that direction any longer, and I doubt it that the Elves took it for personal use.
The Elves were leaving the world and the Undying Lands would become a legend for Men. Perhaps the Elves thought it was for best that Men forgot the existence of these places.
Imagine if an Ar-Pharazon-like Gondorian ruler (because it seems clear things would not stay perfect forever in M-e) looked through the Elendil-stone, saw the beauty of the Undying Lands and tried to reach it with his ships.
I believe this was done for the sake of Men, not out of greed.

[zxcvbn]

That doesn't make any sense. Why would the Elves want the beauty of the Undying Lands and the glory of the Elder Days to be forgotten by Men? It would make sense to leave the Elendil Stone so that Men could look upon the West and remember the times that were and so the Elves and their deeds would not entirely be forgotten with time. In any case, there would be no problem with Men trying to reach the Undying Lands. The Straight Path was closed to them forever. So the Gondorians discovered with their Flying Ships.

[Lalwendë]

I don't know. It seems quite compassionate of the Elves that they might seek to 'protect' Men from the lust the Numenoreans had to get to Valinor.

It also fits in with the idea that all memory of Elves would fade away so that eventually they would be like our own Fairies, resigned to being part of legends and stories - even if they do still exist

[The Might]

Thanks Lalwende for the support!

The Fourth Age was the Age of Men and so would be those to come. Elves and Dwarves would slowly pass out of memory and would become legends.

Men were now left to take care for themselves, no need to sit in a tower like Elendil and gaze towards the west dreaming of help from there or of what could have been.

While you say it makes no sense, I disagree. If the Elves thought that all kings of Men would be like Eomer and Aragorn then be sure that the palantir would have stayed, but they knew better. As hinted by Tolkien in a couple of places M-e did not remain a happy place until the Dagor Dagorath...evil Men came to power and in this case it might have been to keep the memory of Valinor hidden from them.
Also, what better explanation should there be....greed? I doubt it...

[Alfirin]

Your right I had forgotten both that stone and the fact that Tindrock was unreacable. I guess the hills of Eye and Ear relied on fast horses to get thier messages to the rulers.

So, it looks like all stones are accounted for and the two left at the end of the war of the ring are the only two available (I am asuming that, for the purpose of the argument the Anor stone, while nearly usless now, would still be kept somewhere, and that the Ithil stone was indeed blown up when Barad-Dur fell).
A pity. Those who are fond of writing fanfics (or RPG scenarios) might want to consider what might happen if the Osgilath stone was somehown recoved from the bed of the Anduin (by say an earthquake changing the path of the river ore someone late in the forth age putting locks in the river. I have always beived that the river wolnt not have destoyed the stone just made it utterly inacessible and by Third age tech irretrevable.

[The Might]

Well, considering THIS you may want to search near Ibiza.

No, but really I think that the disappearence of the palantiri was again a proof of the growing gap between the world of Men and the world of Elves and Dwarves and Hobbits.

Same thing probably happened to the Elessar and to other "magical" substances like mithril and ithildin. Simply forgotten as time passed.

[Gwathagor]

The farsight of Galadriel and Elrond was probably related to their wisdom, as well as their Rings.