The Ring of Saruman?

[narfforc]

Has anyone given thought to the power or potency of this ring? For those who do not know of this ring, please allow me to elaborate. In LotR(The Council of Elrond)
Gandalf tells of his meeting with the traitor Saruman:

"But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger".

If this ring was of no importance, why did Tolkien/Gandalf refer to it, yet it is not given a second thought at the council. Can it be that Saruman in envy of Sauron is trying to appear as a copy of him? I do not think so, for a few paragraphs on this is said:

"For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours"

In this statement is Saruman advertising himself as a cheap jewelsmith? No, he is telling us he has made a Ring. Can he have done this thing?, almost definitely. Why?, Had he not studied The Lore of the Rings a long time, had he learned nothing at all? Was he not Curumo of the people of Aule, a Maia in the service of that Vala, as was Sauron in his beginning?. Where and how exactly did Sauron gain his knowledge?. If he was taught, then others also could be, if he invented them himself, others could also come to that knowledge by the power that is within them. How many of the Smiths of Ost-in-Edhil survived, Did Saruman the White in his fair face ever talk to them, did they give him knowledge thinking him to be amongst the good and wise?. Maybe The Ring of Saruman was only a lesser ring, but I think it had power, it was used to enhance his voice, and that power stayed with him even after his staff was broken.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Seems to me that the only thing we can do about this ring is to speculate about it, as Tolkien does not give us much to go on. That having been said....

If Saruman was trying to emulate the craft of Sauron then we can assume that his Ring was like the Rings of Power, but lesser; just as he made Isengard into a lesser version of Mordor. We can probably assume as well that the Ring he wore was his attempt at his own One, so he probably passed into it much of his strength, just as Sauron did with the One.

So the question I have is this: what happened to this Ring or other Rings??? As they are not mentioned again, it can be assumed that they were either destroyed in the fall of Isengard or, more intriguingly, lost.....hmmmmm....imagine if they, or It, were found by someone years after the War.....hmmmmmmmm...methinks I smell an RPG.......

[Lalwendë]

The Ring Saruman made must have been different to the Rings of Power, as Sauron (as far as we know) was not present when he made it, whereas he was there to influence/corrupt the making of the other Rings. This would exclude the Three which were hidden from him, but even so he had an influence over even these. Saruman's ring was something else.

He certainly had enough Ring Lore to frighten others into falsely believing he could make a Ring of power, if not to physically make one which was effective. Perhaps Gandalf knew enough to realise that either Saruman was 'bluffing' or that any ring he made would not be linked with Sauron (and therefore not such an immediate threat or problem); this may explain why the matter does not concern the Council too much.

I always wonder what such a Ring might do, though. Saruman demonstrated that he could break the Light to see what it was composed from, so he was perfectly capable of other deeds. I think that Saruman, initially at least, was seeking a 'third way' - he did not wish to follow either Light or dark but to find his own solutions, and that he made his own Ring of power underlines this.

I like to imagine that his Ring encapsulated some of the knowledge he gained from breaking the Light, though this is pure speculation. But could it have been in any way as dangerous as any of the existing Rings of power? From the dismissive reaction of the Council and Gandalf, probably not. So where did they get their special power from, in particular the One Ring? If Saruman possessed enough Ring Lore to produce one and it was not as powerful, then it must have been either the maker or the place where the One was made which made it so deadly.

EDIT: Just seen Fordim's post - presumably if he kept this Ring, then it went with him into The Shire, where he was killed. So did the Ring remain in The Shire? Perhaps to languish in a Mathom House?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

EDIT: Just seen Fordim's post - presumably if he kept this Ring, then it went with him into The Shire, where he was killed. So did the Ring remain in The Shire? Perhaps to languish in a Mathom House?

*Fordim madly scribbles down ideas for a new RPG: Heir of the Ring*

[obloquy]

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2478

Check it, yo.

Here's what I have to say about it:

The One Ring's most important function was as an anchor to the physical world. Infusing much of himself into an all-but-indestructible object guaranteed Sauron's ability to regenerate if his body was slain. I also theorize that it acted as a kind of reservoir that he could put power into, then regenerate, and repeat, providing a way to increase the amount of power he could call upon beyond his natural limit. Other than this, the One Ring didn't do much. Enslaving bearers of the Rings of Power yielded very limited results, and I would debate whether the Ring actually granted Sauron invisibility as it did to the lesser bearers.

What does this have to do with the topic? Saruman knew he was incarnate, and doubtless knew that death as an incarnate would be permanent. The only way out for the Istari was to be restored by the Valar who had sent them, but Saruman had betrayed them. So what could he do? He probably discovered the true genius of having such a ring as Sauron's, and wanted an anchor and bank vault for himself. Obviously he didn't achieve what he was going for, but in time he may have.

[Lalwendë]

That's a good thread that obloquy links to, worth a read. It's got me thinking a little more about this too. It's always possible that Saruman, who was obviously a tinkerer, simply made a ring because he could. He could have been like one of those people who loves to pull things apart just to see how they work. I know I have this urge to pull things apart and investigate them myself, which is possibly part of why I find Saruman so interesting.

But I think he did have darker purposes. I still think that one of the major qualities if not the purpose of the Rings of Power was linked to osanwe. The Silmarillion tells how Sauron sought to control the minds and thoughts of others, particularly through giving them these Rings. We have also seen how Galadriel has considerable powers of osanwe. And we know Saruman is strong in this respect, with his voice being particularly dangerous.

Saruman, to my mind, was trying to create his own Ring to enhance his powers, but he failed to be entirely effective in his endeavour. When Sauron made the One, it is clear he had to pour an immense amount of his own power into its crafting; that the destruction of the One caused the destruction of Sauron and his realm, demonstrates just how much of his power was put into its forging. It's obvious that Saruman did not put quite so much of his own power into the crafting of his own ring, which may be a good reason to explain why it did not work effectively.

But this ring may have had some effects and there is evidence in LotR. Saruman controlled a large army, and not only an army, but he also had gained control of the Dunlendings, and had allies in Rohan and the Shire. Who knows what he could have acheived with more time? He was not in Middle earth for anywhere near the time that Sauron had, and he did not have the remnants which Morgoth left behind for Sauron to pick up and use; he was working from scratch to build his power. He was also easily able to deceive such perceptive minds as those of Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond, all true Ringbearers. Again this may suggest a purpose to his Ring, and that may have been to cloak or cloud the minds of the bearers of the Three - something which he may have sought to do as he wanted to find the One and did not want the Council to perceive his aims.

There is another reason why Saruman may have failed to make his Ring more effective. Maybe a Ring cannot stand 'alone'. Just as much of the potential of a Palantir is lost without another Palantir to communicate with, perhaps a ring of power needs some 'kin' which are in affinity with it in order for it to have genuinely wide ranging effects? And finally, it could be that the One Ring was so powerful because of where it was forged. When it was cast back, it caused the destruction of its maker and his realm, suggesting that this was a cataclysmic kind of 'force' - to return to source an object created from that source. It has got me thinking about something davem said some time ago, that Mount Doom may be a 'tap' to some kind of power within Middle earth, maybe to the Light itself? If Saruman (and for that matter, Celebrimbor) lacked this power during his forging, then the ring/s produced could never have the same terrifying potential of the One.

[Gurthang]

Perhaps Saruman's Ring did work, but not that made much difference to the story. One aspect of the One was that Sauron had a controlling power when he possessed it. Not just over those in opposition to him, but to those already under his authority. He used his Ring to drive his armies before him, and with its power they were less fearful and more aggressive towards their master's goal.

Saruman's Ring could have done this. With his army of Uruks he needed an easy way to control them, since Orcs do not take orders easily. His Ring may have given him the will-power to command them. Perhaps this is why they were so swift and tireless and could move in sunlight. 'They run as though the very whips of their master were behind them.' Saruman's Ring could have been able to branch out and push his servants even beyond his own physical reach.

His Ring provided him with increased 'persuasive' power, not just over others but even more importantly over his own troops.

[narfforc]

I think that if Saruman still had his ring when he left Isengard, then he may well have been able to call on its innate power in some way to enhance the power of his voice. Maybe this is what Gandalf alludes to when he says, "but this snake had still one tooth left", and later Saruman himself may not have issued empty threats when he says, "But do not think that when I lost all my goods I lost all my power. If the ring had any power, then that power remained, as with The One Ring after Sauron was defeated, others used its power.

[Rhod the Red]

I think the Ring of Saruman is what gave him the ability to produce Orcs, etc. How else can they be produced?

In games like the Battle for Middle-Earth they're produced from a pit.

[Eonwe]

Eh? What's this?

I wasn't aware that Saurman ever crafted a Ring of power. Were is this juicy tidbit divulged?

[Rhod the Red]

Gandalf mentioned it in the Couincil of Elrond

[Thinlómien]

It was not a ring of power.

[Rhod the Red]

How do you know?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Gandalf, in the Council of Elrond

But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring in his finger.

It doesn't say anything about rings of power.

The ring however, maybe had some magic abilities, as it is paid so much attention.

[Rhod the Red]

First you say no, then maybe? Lol, untie yourself comrade!

[Thinlómien]

I think we have a problem of definition here. You say, that any ring with magic abilities is a ring of power. (Right?) I use the name ring of power only for really significant items, such as the 19 rings made by the elf smiths and the One Ring.

My theory about Saruman's ring, however, is that it was a lesser ring with little magical power, or it was only a status symbol, or that it was a creation of Saruman, who had tried to create a powerful item (and probably failed by the way).

[Rhod the Red]

It was a ring of power, period, in my view. Whether o not it was equal to the originals, does it matter?

[Thinlómien]

As a matter of definition would you call the lesser rings the elf smiths made rings of power?

[Rhod the Red]

Yes.

[Thinlómien]

Then we're arguing over definitions.

I'm only wondering, that if Saruman's ring had power, what did it do?

[narfforc]

Saruman studied the craft of Ring-making for a long period in an attempt gain inner knowledge of The One and Sauron. The Ring of Saruman may well of been the first step towards creating his own Ring of Power, as with the lesser rings of the elves (Essays in the craft). There is no reason why a wizard of the order of Saruman would require to make and wear Bling, he calls himself Ring-maker and not jewel-smith. Even if the ring had the same power as Bilbo's magic cuff-links, it therefore had some power. It is either a ring of no power or some power, it may not be as one of the rings that the elves made, but does that stop others from doing exactly the same thing the elves did to make theirs.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Then we're arguing over definitions.

I'm only wondering, that if Saruman's ring had power, what did it do?

No, that's not what you're wondering. Surely not. Because if you were wondering what power Saruman's ring might have had, surely you'd have the sense to read the thread you're posting in.

I think the Ring of Saruman is what gave him the ability to produce Orcs, etc. How else can they be produced?

In games like the Battle for Middle-Earth they're produced from a pit.

How might it have done that? A little packet of Orc mix included?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by obloquy

No, that's not what you're wondering. Surely not. Because if you were wondering what power Saruman's ring might have had, surely you'd have the sense to read the thread you're posting in.

You think I haven't read it? I'm horrified. Seriously, I don't think this thread has found the answer yet, and I was just trying to get the discussion more on-topic.

[Rhod the Red]

Well we don't know what powers it had. Tolkein doesnt reveal it in his notes nor TLOTR.

[narfforc]

You are quite right Rhod , we do not know and we can only surmise, which of course is the whole point of this website. What we can do is look at how the others rings worked and interacted with their bearers. I do not believe that Narya worked for Cirdan in the same way as it did for Gandalf, this I believe is due to the differing inherent power of each individual. One of Sarumans powers was that of his voice, could his ring have enhanced his desire to bend others to his will?.

[Rhod the Red]

I doubt it. I think it gave him the ability to produce orcs, etc.

[narfforc]

Gandalf goes to great length to warn others of the power of Sarumans voice and deceptive arts, and not for nothing. When Gandalf asks Treebeard upon his return to Orthanc, about the whereabouts of Saruman and being told he was gone, Gandalf has this to say:

'but this snake had still one tooth left, I think. He had the poison of his voice.....

The voice was given weight by the power within the Istari Saruman, that power should have been nullified when Gandalf broke his staff, however if a remnant of that power resided in his ring, which we are told nothing of after The Council of Elrond, then he may well of had one tooth left. Now add this to the debate:

At the doors of Bag End Frodo says: 'Do not believe him! He has lost all power, save his voice that can still daunt you and decieve you, if you let it.

Frodo is saying that the only thing of power that Saruman has left is his voice.

The only thing we know of Orc production is what Tolkien tells us: ' they had life and multiplied after the manner of The Children of Iluvatar', I don't think anything is mentioned about slimy production pits as in the films or in Computer Games. The inter-breeding of the Uruk-hai would probably be no different than producing a mule from two different equine species, not a difficult thing to do without a Ring of Power. Even breeding between the races wasn't difficult, we have lots of Peredhil to prove that.

[Rhod the Red]

"we have lots of Peredhil to prove that." what's your reference for that? I've never heard of it.

[narfforc]

The Offspring of Man and Elf (The Peredhil/Half-elven). If the Atani and Quendi can mate in the normal way, then so can Man and Orc, there is no need for large green pools of slime.

One is singular, a couple are a few, maybe instead of lots I should have said several:

1 Dior
2 Elured
3 Elurin
4 Elwing
5 Earendil
6 Elros
7 Elrond.

This of course does not include the Nimrodel incident, or Eldarion

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

... what's your reference for that?

In return, it is only fair that you provide your reference for the contention that Saruman "produced" Orcs.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

In return, it is only fair that you provide your reference for the contention that Saruman "produced" Orcs.

"But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun," said Gamling. 'And neither will the wild men of the hills. Do you not hear their voices?" (Helm's Deep)

is the closest I can come to a reference that Saruman 'produced' Orcs. Actually, it doesn't say he 'produced' Orcs at all, merely that he indulged in a bit of genetic engineering.

Unless I've missed something

[narfforc]

Those words are known to me, however I still do not like the word produce. My sister breeds rabbits, she is not a stage magician who produces them from a hat. Only Iluvatar can create life, all else is done the usual way. No matter how unsavoury it is to think of it, the simple and easy way to this is with captured females of the species Man. Tolkien does not talk about Saruman or Sauron having Bio-labs And Genetic Engineering Plants, there is no conveyor belt production line here, all you need is the first batch of inter-bred species then you let them get on with what comes naturally. Tolkien knew from history that races mingled in conquered realms, that's why we talk about Romano-celts and such, how many people in England can stand up and say they are truly an original stock Briton.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

In return, it is only fair that you provide your reference for the contention that Saruman "produced" Orcs.

Saucey, you have just given me a horrific mental image that I shall likely never shake, and shall have to revile for the rest of my natural life...

After all, men and elves can interbreed, right? So whether orks come from Elves or Men (as Tolkien later theorized they might have) they can interbreed with Men or Elves... and the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth in the form of Men- fully functional, we are made to assume. Therefore, when you say that Saruman "produced" the Orks, I am for some reason left with the mental image of Saruman SIRING the orks.

Ew! Ew! EWW!!

Slightly offtopic, yes... but Ew! And if I have to suffer it, so do you!

[Lalwendë]

I think Rings had little to do with Saruman's breeding programme; he would have done this anyway. I do agree he probably took human women and male Orcs and had them breed; possibly women of the Dunlendings or Rohirrim women captured in the Westfold? I am also sure that Orcs and Men could breed; taking the possibility that Orcs are corrupted Elves, we know Men and Elves could breed, so why not Orcs, if they are/have been Elves?

I also think that Orcs would relish the possibility of breeding with women, distasteful as it sounds. Tolkien took great care not to mention what happened to Celebrian when she was waylaid, but the possibility of something incredibly horrible happening does exist. The absence of an explanation can often speak volumes.

Anyway, about that pesky Ring again. I have in my mind a picture of that ring. I think it may be constructed of crystal, may include some kind of Prism. This would make it a genuine ring of many colours for a wizard of many colours. It could have been an inspiration for, or perhaps inspired by, Saruman's Light Breaking. It may even have been a tool for what he was trying to attempt in breaking up that Light/Divinity to see what it was made of.

I also noted how Gandalf seems almost to dismiss this ring of Saruman's as a mere trinket. I wonder whether Gandalf really thinks that? Was he trying not to give Saruman and his craft any credence? One of the ways the true Rings of Power seem to work is by reputation; even just to hear of one evokes fear and passion. Maybe Gandalf feared the Ring of Saruman taking on this kind of life, the same type of reputation as the One Ring?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

Actually, it doesn't say he 'produced' Orcs at all, merely that he indulged in a bit of genetic engineering.

Yes, that was rather my point. The image of Saruman spawning Orcs from the earth is one that comes solely from the films. And, as narfforc points out, the quote you gave doesn't even require the notion of genetic engineering. Gandalf's reference to Saruman's "foul craft" might simply be to a straightforward, albeit repellent, cross-breeding programme.

One issue on which Rhod might have a point, however, is the swiftness with which Saruman appears to have been able to build up such a large force of Orcs. There was a thread on this a while back. I cannot remember the exact dates, but I do recall the suggestion that there simply wasn't enough time (between the date upon which Saruman is said to have begun amassing his army and the year of the War of the Ring) for him to breed such a huge army. Perhaps some magic was involved in the process, although there is no suggestion that this was the purpose of his Ring.

I rather agree that, if the Ring had any power, it was directed towards enhancing the user's natural abilities - in Saruman's case, his voice in particular.

I wonder if it allowed the user to become invisible? Doubtful, I suppose, because otherwise Saruman would have used it to this end at some point, for example to avoid the Black Riders or escape Treebeard.

Do we know if he still had it when he staged the Shire coup? Surely Gandalf would have relieved him of it when he was cornered at Isengard.

[Rhod the Red]

Perhaps it lost its power with the destruction of the One Ring? Otherwise Gandalf would have tried to confiscate it, I guess.

[Lalwendë]

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that there is nothing said about the fate of Saruman's Ring, so it is possible he took it into the Shire with him. When he was killed I would imagine the ring was picked up by the Hobbits, maybe to languish in a Mathom House?

Or did Sam pick it up?

If it had any kind of property that helped in Saruman's Orc breeding programme, was it an influence on Sam's own personal Hobbit breeding programme?

[narfforc]

Putting two and two together, brings us to the conclusion that Saruman got lots of presents from Orcs on Fathers Day.....Ha-Ha

[Mänwe]

My take on the matter is in agreement with the majority of the comments made. You are agreed that his ring was one not nearly as potent as the Ruling Ring, it was in all intent and purposes a disaster.

It is clear that he made it because he had the skill with which to do so, you have all said he was Mair of Aule;

"...but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft." -

"But Saruman now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history." - Silmarillion, Of the Rings Of Power

However it becomes clear that his studying of the art is something that he did not gain to a great proficiency. Otherwise had he learnt the secrets that Sauron had learnt and used in the forging of the Ruling Ring, then he would have had no need to have searched for it. Thus I think it is likely his ring was an experimentation, the pinnacle of his skill for his time was ever devoted to the search of the One.

'Sauman uses the term Ring-maker and Gandalf tells us that Saruman had a ring on his finger- but the logic chain connecting the two is tenuous indeed.

There is absolutely no overwhelming objective evidence to show that Gandalf's comment and Saruman's statement are in any way aligned.

The term Ring-maker is one of the names of Sauron, and the significance of Saruman using that term is that in his pride and folly he is setting himself up to rival the Dark Lord- and seeking to impress/intimidate Gandalf in doing so. (Gandalf is already aware of this name as one for Sauron -cf. FOTR-The Shadow of the Past).

If Saruman had been referring to himself as one who has made a ring he would have said 'ring-maker' - uncapitalized. The capitalized version 'Ring-maker' is one of Sauron's names - and Saruman would be well aware of this.

Moreover, we know from HOME 7 The Treason of Isengard , that Tolkien had removed a reference that might have inclined the reader towards thinking that Saruman had created a ring, and included the term Ring-maker only in the published version. It does not appear in earlier drafts.

An examination of the relevant drafts of the Council of Elrond shows the following:

The Council of Elrond(1) 'He wore a ring on his finger ' stands, but there is no reference to Ring-maker.

The Council of Elrond(2) as (1) but with the inclusion of a comment preceding "He wore" which states , 'and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near to the secret of their making.'

This too, disappears from the published version.

And, even if we assume, for arguments sake, that he had made a Ring, and the evidence is far too slight to prove that he had, it clearly had been a wasted effort as it is never referred to again in the whole of Lord of the Rings and apparently was put to no use whatsoever.

I think on balance that Saruman did not make a Ring, which is why Tolkien made the textual amendments between the earlier drafts and the final form.

[narfforc]

Sorry Manwe but I do not agree. Let us look at the one sentence, in which he describes himself:

1. Saruman the Wise, well that goes without saying, he was so he thought.

2. Saruman of Many Colours, he is not telling us how many different coloured undergarments he possessed, Gandalf tells us the truth of this statement.

3. Saruman Ring-maker, ?

So how can we believe one part of the statement and not another, if Tolkien left that in the published version of his work, whilst alive, then that is one that counts.
So if Saruman was only calling himself Ring-maker because it was one of the multitude of names attached to Sauron, why didnt Tolkien include that as an explanation, because the words speak for themselves, we don't need an explanation.

Now if Gandalf had not mentioned a Ring, it would have given more weight to your argument ie: if Gandalf had only mentioned the words Ring-maker.