Survivor: The Second Age

[Lalaith]

I may be misremembering, but I've got a feeling that Ang didn't actually discount votes, didn't he just evict people in addition to those voted out by the players?

Anyway, I don't want to put backs up, or make anyone feel like they've been painted into a corner, by issuing threats and ultimatums....
....but at the same time, this game had become a lot of fun on a lot of levels....advocacy, persuasion, diplomacy, deal-making and negotiation, bluff and double-bluff - and now it just isn't anywhere near as much fun, because to in order to play at such a level we need basic gaming parameters, eg having a rough idea about when days are going to end, and just what people have to say and do to get their votes counted.

So if it isn't going to be fun, there doesn't seem much point....

[Anguirel]

And in the midst of the controversy, my Case Against Elendil, work of a morning's diligent ranting, gets no love?

Honestly. This mass-boycotting is uncalled for...

I would suggest that Formendacil lay down his rules and reveal his criteria clearly, since you're all being so stuffy about this; but I don't see any need for throwing out or dragging in candidates. It'll send us scrabbling over old material.

On the other hand, if there must be a choice due to you all being revolting peasants, Elrond not Celeborn must go, Oropher not Khamul return. If we're going to revise one candidate by stringent-mode, we'll have to revise all the other non-stringent votes-completely warping the game as it has enjoyably proceeded so far.

For myself, I continue to regard this game and Formendacil's modding as the most enjoyable Survivor so far.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

And in the midst of the controversy, my Case Against Elendil, work of a morning's diligent ranting, gets no love?

Depending on what happens with the Elrond/Oropher matter, I assure you I will look over the whole Elendil argument again (apparently looking backing over old posts ad nauseum is "my thing") -- though seeing as I have a soft spot for Amandil and his broken remains gathering barnacles at the bottom of the ocean that may bias me for Elendil. Or not.

On the other hand, if there must be a choice due to you all being revolting peasants, Elrond not Celeborn must go, Oropher not Khamul return. If we're going to revise one candidate by stringent-mode, we'll have to revise all the other non-stringent votes-completely warping the game as it has enjoyably proceeded so far.

I would tend to agree with that. I'm more in favor of letting camel reasonings stand, even if I wouldn't have voted that way myself.

At any rate, I have long RPG posts that need writing and a Werewolf game that may or may not be starting soon, so I go now to expend my energy elsewhere.

[Celuien]

Right now I think that old decisions should stand, Formendacil having the right as Mod to decide how he wants to tally votes. But for future reference, I also think it would be better to have set rules about what is counted and what isn't.

And back to the voting...

The Elendili are currently the strongest tribe and in need of thinning to keep balance. I'll go with Ang's argument that Elendil's hubris is beyond excuse.

Besides that, shouldn't he have done a little better job teaching Isildur to avoid things like shiny rings forged by Dark Lords? Would have saved Middle-earth tons of trouble if he did.

++ELENDIL

[Formendacil]

And just what is all this ruckus about?

Okay, I know what all this ruckus is about...

It seems to me that there's a certain "poor loser's syndrome" going on. Well, I can sympathise... For what it's worth, I'd just as soon have saved Gil-galad rather than Elrond, but I didn't.

Okay, my criteria being in the dark is bit mysterious, and I can understand the criticism there. Very well, in the future if I stick to the Tolkien-based voting system, I'll analyse each and every vote in the open. The only reason I was keeping it in the dark was to avoid offending people's sensibilities as to whether or not I was being partial and counting votes to please myself.

So, if there are offended feelings in the future because I don't think your votes are reasoned, then I apologise in advance, but you brought it on yourselves.

However, I am not reinstating Khamûl, nor I am reinstating Oropher. If I reinstate anyone, it'll be Gil-galad, because I feel like indulging Lhuna.

But, since I'm as impartial a mod as I can be, I'm not doing that, so nobody is being reinstated.

Now, as regards the Day End/Start times, I refer you to this quote from my thread-opening post:

Originally Posted by Me, the Moderadacil

The days will be more or less regular in duration, but due to the irregularities that are a working bum's life, the exact duration of the day will not be herein specified, so as to allow me the chance to open/close the days as I please, and to allow for a greater air of uncertainty (no holding votes back to the deadline, guys).

To restate this:

All days will be as close to 24 hours in duration as I can manage. An hour or two off is quite possible. If 24 hours isn't possible, then I'll let it go on longer, and end it when I see fit.

I have a rather irregular work schedule, guys. Last week I was opening the store, so I worked 10:00 am to 6:00ish pm. I also close the store, meaning I work 5:00ish pm to 12:30ish am.

I also sleep.

Therefore, a regular schedule cannot be expected.

And, to be perfectly honest, I like the idea of relatively random deadlines. If you don't know to the half hour when I'm going to stop the game, then you may have to vote NOW- a fact that kind of even things up for people like Nilp or Lhuna who can't vote near the deadline many days because of the timezone difference.

So, the days will remain as they are: irregular. At least they're more regular than Glirdan managed in his game.

~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

For myself, I continue to regard this game and Formendacil's modding as the most enjoyable Survivor so far.

As had I, before today.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It seems to me that there's a certain "poor loser's syndrome" going on.

Frankly, I believe that such an approach would be entirely justified on the basis that the "losers" "lost" not because they were outplayed by their competitors, but because the cards were stacked against them.

Although "disillusioned players" is a more apposite term than "poor losers".

Originally Posted by Formendacil

For what it's worth, I'd just as soon have saved Gil-galad rather than Elrond, but I didn't.

Oh well that's OK then. Since you were so gracious as to not rig one vote, we should overlook you rigging this one.

I can understand your points about the deadline. The uncertain deadline actually made the game more interesting, as it was always a risk whether to put in a "safe" vote or wait and risk missing the deadline. But, plotting and scheming takes up a fair bit of time and it is rather galling to see that all go to waste on the moderator's whim. Indeed, it makes one wonder whether it is worth the effort.

And since, unfortunately, it looks like the game is likely to continue in the same vein, then I can see little point in continuing. There just ain't no fun in it any more.

So, the Alliance of Ultra-DOOM is hereby formally dissolved (for now, at least). Do with the remaining contestants as you wish.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And just what is all this ruckus about?

Okay, I know what all this ruckus is about...

It seems to me that there's a certain "poor loser's syndrome" going on. Well, I can sympathise... For what it's worth, I'd just as soon have saved Gil-galad rather than Elrond, but I didn't.

I can't say that I am at all in agreement with that rather loaded assessment of my motives. I can and do accept loses when I believe them to be fair ones. So, since you have disregarded my points about the vote tally as irrelevant and emotional, and didn't even deign to explain why you miscounted the votes to begin with (giving Elrond 6 before deductions when he had 7) then I really don't feel in the mood to play anymore. The game should be fun, it stopped being that for me. Therefore I won't stick around, since you might find me rather bitter and no one needs a bad mood hanging about casting a pall. I hope those who continue to play enjoy the remainder of the game.

[the phantom]

The amount of whining that I see makes it quite clear that you guys are really really taking this game seriously. Curious, seeing as you are quick to point out that this is the "Mirth" forum.

You all should be goofing around and being over-dramatic like me. It's more fun than being a stick in the mud.

As far as the complaining about the way the votes were counted, allow me to demonstrate the way I would've counted the votes for Elrond and Oropher.

Now don't try to argue with me about any of my judgments. Don't tell me "Well, I wouldn't have counted it that way!" That doesn't matter.

I'm just trying to show you the thought process that could lead to the results we got. In other words, showing that Formy probably had certain things in mind for counting votes and didn't just decide to count some and not others on a whim.

morm votes for Elrond:

Agent Elrond must go. He's not that wise yet, he's not funny, he's has limited personality. He's just not working out and it's time to let you go.

As you can see, morm said nothing that is justifiable within Tolkien's literature and didn't even attempt to justify it.

- - NO VOTE

Spawn votes for Elrond:
Her argument was that Elrond's refuge, Rivendell, only thrived because of Vilya. Now, why this is a reason to cast out Elrond I don't know (and I fought her quite nicely with quotes, I think ), but I imagine her vote got counted because she at least used some Encyclopedia of Arda quotes. Then again, the Encyclopedia of Arda online wasn't written by Tolkien, so it's not a guarantee.

+ + PROBABLY A VOTE FOR ELROND

Diamond18 votes for Elrond:
She voted for Elrond because she thought I was being mean. So quite obviously-

- - NO VOTE

(btw, I wasn't being mean to anyone, Diamond, I was simply being overly fanatic for the purpose of entertainment, people who've seen me in werewolf games are very familiar with my "hysterical phantom routine", as I believe Kuru called it, and generally find it amusing- I'm sure Spawn knows good and well that I don't honestly think she is stupid )

Eonwe votes for Oropher:

Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?

This vote counts. Why? Because Eonwe is clearly demonstrating a very Tolkien based argument for Oropher's eviction- Oropher was not mentioned much in Tolkien's books.

Had Elrond been running up against someone other than Oropher, he probably would've been voted off, but Oropher is extremely easy to cast a Tolkien-based vote for by virtue of the simple fact that Tolkien didn't say much about him.

This is why it was so easy to include the Oropher votes in the final tally. At least that is my theory. Please do your best to understand this.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

TORE votes for Elrond:

Is where I'm leaning at the moment...there are good points for & against him of course & I might change my mind but at the moment I'm leaning towards Spawn's course of action

Do you see any reason given for why Elrond should be gone? Didn't think so.

- - NO VOTE

Celuien votes for Oropher:
First, she quotes Eonwe-

Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?

And then she answers-

Can't think of a thing. How dull...

+ +Oropher

For contributing little, if anything, to the history of Middle-earth.

This vote counts the same way Eonwe's does.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

Elu Ancalime votes for Elrond:

I swear he's a sissy.

Hmm... For some reason I don't think Formy counted this one.

- - NO VOTE

Kuru votes for Elrond:
He at least points out something from Middle-Earth- the fact that Elrond was the herald of Gil-galad. However, the conclusion that he draws from this is that Elrond "didn't do a thing" in the battle. He certainly doesn't give anything to support that, but perhaps his vote gets counted because he gave exact information from Tolkien's book (that Elrond was Gil's herald)?

+ + PROBABLY A VOTE FOR ELROND

Gil votes for Elrond:

I expect your vote for Anarion in the future Kuru

I don't think that qualifies.

- - NO VOTE

the phantom votes for Oropher:

There's a reason a lot of people don't know the name Oropher where as everyone knows Elrond. Oropher isn't worthy of recognition, and thus is unworthy of staying in this game.

Here I am, using the same line of thinking as Eonwe and Celuien. I am using the fact that Tolkien did not write much about Oropher to prove that he was not a character worthy of standing among the greats. If he was as great as Elrond, Tolkien would've written more about him.

Not only that, but Formy might've been persuaded to count my vote simply because of my many quality Tolkien based defenses of Elrond. I was obviously trying as hard as anyone to keep the game Tolkien based, so it makes sense to count my vote.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

lord votes for Oropher:

I haven't seen any decent defensible textual reason why Elrond should leave right now, particularly before Oropher, who most of you probably had to look up to find out about.

I agree with those before me that there is a reason Oropher is not well known- he didn't do anything worthy of keeping him alive in this game.

Once again, we see the argument that Oropher is an obscure character within the legendarium and thus does not belong with the big names.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

Firefoot votes for Oropher:

He's pretty much useless, and Elrond deserves to stick around to the end more than he does. I don't know that Elrond should win, but Oropher definitely should not.

Firefoot calls Oropher "useless", which is likely referencing his lack of deeds and general no-name status, but since it isn't clear I won't count this vote.

- - NO VOTE

And so the final tally is...
Elrond: 2
Oropoher: 4

There! Now that you have seen a vote count demonstrated, perhaps that will put an end to these charges of vote "rigging".

For those of you with this attitude- "My person didn't win so I'm not playing any more"...

You need to smack yourself on the head and tell yourself "It's just a game."

Then you need to smack yourself again, and tell yourself "As Phantom demonstrated, I suppose it is actually possible that Form's final vote tally is somewhat justifiable."

After that, smack yourself once again and say "To be safe I'm going to come up with real reasons to vote for characters from now on." (I know I'm going to be trying harder just in case)

And, no doubt, a few of you think I'm only saying all this because my candidate didn't get voted off. If that's what you think- whatever.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by a phantom

... this is the "Mirth" forum.

Precisely.

Originally Posted by a phantom

For those of you with this attitude- "My person didn't win so I'm not playing any more"...

To quote you:

Originally Posted by a phantom

If that's what you think- whatever.

[Elu Ancalime]

Not to critisize Formendacil, but one of the great things (and at the same time stupid, dont forget) about democracy is that, in a republic, [ok just for example the USA ] a voter can vote for anyone without any restriction, even Bubba who runs the gas station. So technically i should be able to say ++Elu with nothing else and it stands. But hey, its Formen's game, so w/e....its logical, but something in stone beforehand might have been..helpful.

I think Formy is really tring to make this game 'correct,' but a degree of 'fun' might be lost. It is Mirth, and it is fun to make cases like Elronds a sissy and we dont want sissys, but that comes down to what Kuru and Phantom said days ago: Charactars vs. vendettas, and theres a balence to be found, because like I said, if its ONLY charactars, Isildur, Elendil or Sauron should win by default, or only
vendettas, DOOM could carry Joe the Hobbit to victory 'just because.'

Then you need to smack yourself again, and tell yourself "As Phantom demonstrated, I suppose it is actually possible that Form's final vote tally is somewhat justifiable."

I agree with you there; I was annoyed for about 2 seconds when I saw Formy went Florida Style, but whatever. I will still do my best to be as irrationally logical as possible, and cause phantom to shake his head at me.

So, Elu Ancalime, if you keep your vote for Elrond you are an absolutely huge hypocrite.

But now I disagree; I wasnt saying Elrond wasnt, my vote was to defend Oropher and Cirdan. Elrond was warm and nice to those that he met met and knew, but Oropher risked his luxeries to send a missionary to educate the Silvan/Avari.
________
BUY EASY VAPE VAPORIZER

[lord of dor-lomin]

I say we get rid of Treebeard. He didn't do anything of note in the Second Age.

I think the ents might be better off without him. Maybe a younger, more "hasty" ent would take charge, like Quickbeam.

+ + Treebeard

[the phantom]

Ooo, Eomer isn't going to like this, but I simply must, since I've been given an easy opportunity to bump him off.

+ + Fangorn (Treebeard)

I hate people who take to long to get to the point, and so I am very much anti-ent to begin with. And then consider, how much good do ents really do? Except for once every few thousand years they don't do anything of value. And they aren't even decent enough chaps to travel with their wives, but instead they just let them wander off to meet their fate alone.

[Formendacil]

Due to a certain lack of voting for characters in the game, the Day's deadline will be postponed to something in the neighbourhood of 24 hours.

Now, to restate certain things that have been overlooked:

1. I have admitted that I was probably wrong to hide my Tolkien-based criteria for voting, and to just present the tallies.

Evidence:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Okay, my criteria being in the dark is bit mysterious, and I can understand the criticism there. Very well, in the future if I stick to the Tolkien-based voting system, I'll analyse each and every vote in the open.

2. In the future, if I choose to continue to follow the Tolkien-based route, I shall make each and every vote's significance within this system open and public.

Evidence: see last quote.

3. My original reason for keeping the criteria secret was not to rig the game, but to avoid offending anyone who's vote might not have been counted- and to keep game discussion on which characters should have been voted off, NOT on whether or not I was correct in allowing/disallowing certain votes. My decision here may have been wrong, if so, I have already admitted that- and said I will change.

Evidence:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The only reason I was keeping it in the dark was to avoid offending people's sensibilities as to whether or not I was being partial and counting votes to please myself.

So, if there are offended feelings in the future because I don't think your votes are reasoned, then I apologise in advance, but you brought it on yourselves.

4. Tolkien-based criteria.

Okay, this is a bit of a new topic, and the points I'm going to make haven't been made specifically by me.

To begin, the requirement to have a rationale for one's votes is not an idea that I came up with. This goes back to Anguirel's game, and was an official rule of Glirdan's. It was also a rule that I was not initially fond of, during those games- possibly because their enforcement of it was inconsistent. However, keeping in mind that this IS a Tolkien forum, and keeping in mind the idea that posts with some meat to them make for a better argument (and thus Survivor thread) than simple ++ My Candidate posts, I began to reconsider my opinions on it over the course of the games.

When I started my own game, I did not originally see a need to include the rule. I assumed that, more-or-less, most voters would include SOME rationale in their voting- and, if the rationale was to be rational, I assumed that it would Tolkien-related.

On about Day 3 (and research back on this thread will clear up exactly when it was), one of the voters from a previous game, possibly Anguirel (though I don't wish to name names in case I'm wrong), was irked at a lack of apparent reason behind someone's vote, and the issue came up in my mind.

That night/day, tallying up the votes, I too was irked at the apparent lack of reason behind some of the votes- and as the two "Tolkien-based" tallyings I have done thus far will show, quite a few votes are easily discounted on this point.

Although I held to the majority decision (a majority decision that I seem to recall disliking for some reason), I did post that I would be possibly changing the rules to require a Tolkien rationale for the votes.

The way I initially did this was done in such a way that I wasn't GUARANTEEING that I would only count Tolkien-based votes- but I might, so you'd better include a reason to be safe. My intention, at that time, was not to force you all to do more work, but to try and stimulate you all by non-forceful means into livening up debate.

However, as the voting progressed over the following days, the overall percentage of "unreasoned" votes didn't really change, and it possibly got worse. A few players asked me (SPM right here on the game thread), if I could be expected to start discounting votes. I replied "No" in all cases, but continued to mention it as a possibility for the future, not necessarily to be acted on.

Well, yesterday I acted on it. I gave plenty of warning, and I don't regret that I did.

Now, I do most sincerely and heartily regret the whole kaffuffle that it has caused. I apologise for keeping my decisions on which votes are eligible secret- clearly, I did not think it through as completely as I ought to have. I will admit to being quite pleased that it was Oropher that got the noose, and not Elrond, but I completely and absolutely deny the charges that I rigged the result. I tallied each vote that had a Tolkien rationale (in my human opinion, mind you). It was still your votes that I counted- and if the anti-Oropher camp had the majority in the keep-Tolkien-a-part-of-it spirit voting scheme that I had set up, then it was their majority that won the votes.

Two more Tolkien-reasoned (even if rather warped, distorted, or parodied in its logic) and Elrond would be gone, and not Oropher.

Again, I truly detest this whole situation that has come up. I regret that my actions made it so. But what has happened, has happened, and as Anguirel has pointed out, reversing my actions will only make things worse. If you want to "remedy" things, then I recommend that you all vote for Elrond today- and use something Tolkien wrote to back you up.

~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~

P.S. To everybody who has supported me, misguided or not, my thanks. To know that I haven't made completely irrational, stupid, and egotistic decisions is appreciated.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Well, Phantom, the mod has just extended the voting time, so we failed in our last second attempt to take out Treebeard.

Rats.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Moderadacil

If I reinstate anyone, it'll be Gil-galad, because I feel like indulging Lhuna.

I like you, too!

Originally Posted by Moderadacil

And, to be perfectly honest, I like the idea of relatively random deadlines. If you don't know to the half hour when I'm going to stop the game, then you may have to vote NOW- a fact that kind of even things up for people like Nilp or Lhuna who can't vote near the deadline many days because of the timezone difference.

...You mean there's a deadline? I had NO idea...

Anyways, I still suggest that you do as the wise littlepoetman did and vote Celeborn.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

++ Celeborn

He didn't deserve his wife. He was complacent, calling himself lord while letting her rule.

Has it occurred to you that we don't know the names of most of the wives of "great lords"? Elendil's wife, for example, is a complete mystery.

The fact that we have more material on Galadriel is a sign that Celeborn was indeed a loving and appreciative husband.

Unlike the bigoted murdering culture-crushing hubristic Elendil. His wife was just his chattel...

[Lalaith]

I think it's all got a bit grumpy for me. Sorry.

But here's a parting gift for Anguirel,

++ELENDIL

Reasons:
a. Too many Elendili
b. He got the Faithful out of Numenor, he'd done his bit. Why put him through the rigours of Survivor as well?
c. Ang's right. WHY don't we know his wife's name? Kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, was she, when the census taker came to call? For shame.

[The Saucepan Man]

At the risk of flogging a dead Khamul, let me try to explain further the reasoning that has led me to the position in which I now, reluctantly, find myself. Hopefully, this will enlighten those knuckle-headed types who refuse to accept any position which does not neatly conform to their own world-view (mentioning no names ), although I don’t hold out much hope on that score.

The problem is that, even with Formendacil’s explanation, we are still left with no clear understanding of the basis upon which votes will be counted or discounted. He has not explained which votes from yesterday were discounted and which were not. Even had he done so, the position would be far from clear.

To take a phantom’s ever so unbiased ( ) analysis as an example, I fail to see why votes for Elrond because of perceived character flaws (mormegil’s and Elu Ancalime’s, for example) should be discounted. Those personality flaws are necessarily Tolkien-based because they are based upon the voter’s perception of a character invented by Tolkien, albeit a perception undoubtedly (and, in my view, legitimately) skewed for game/humour purposes. They could, I suppose, have said something like “based on his behaviour in Middle-earth, he comes across to me as a sissy”, but what is the point of that? The first part of that sentence is surely implied by the context. Calling a vote into question simply because no specific reference is made to Tolkien or Middle-earth necessarily requires a value judgment to be made by the mod (as to whether he agrees with the reasons given by the voter). That is unacceptable as it brings the mod’s partiality into question and leads to far too much uncertainty.

If these votes are to be discounted, then why not also discount the votes for Oropher which simply relied on the fact that he is not mentioned by Tolkien much and so, by implication, did not do much? There is hardly any more intelligent reasoning involved. I can think of better reasons to give for evicting Oropher, such as that his rash charge in the War of the Last Alliance imperilled his side’s victory and got a lot of his people unnecessarily slain. So, if the votes of morm and Elu are to be discounted, then all of the votes for Oropher should also be discounted, leading to Elrond’s eviction.

But I would count all of those votes. On that basis, the only votes for Elrond which might arguably be discounted are those which were cast by Diamond and Gil-Galad as they did not relate to the character in question but to game events. That would leave Elrond and Oropher on five votes each and lead to a double eviction. Possibly a fair result.

Or one might take a different approach. A phantom discounts TORE’s vote because it refers back to spawn’s reasoning. On that basis, the votes of Celuien and (particularly) lord of dor-lomin would also need to be discounted, leaving Elrond with four votes and Oropher with three, resulting in Elrond’s eviction.

You see the problem? Even with a vague indication that only Tolkien-based votes will count, the game is still riddled with grey areas. Too much scope for mod partiality and too little certainty to make the game enjoyable. As I have said, the way that this game has been played involves a fair bit of effort and it all seems rather pointless when that effort comes to nothing on the whim of the mod.

Formendacil, you have said that you have not been rigging the votes. I fully accept that you did not act in bad faith. Nevertheless, the fact that you chose to count the votes for Khamul, even though this issue was raised (by me) during that day of voting, but discount certain votes for Elrond does not give me any comfort in this regard. Even though you may not have consciously have rigged it and thought that you were acting fairly, it is clear to me that there was a degree of partiality involved in the manner in which you exercised your discretion.

In past games, the rule, I believe, has been, not that Tolkien-based reasoning was required, but that reasoning of some kind at least was required. In other words, votes for a character without more were not allowed. That works well, because it forces people to give some sort of reasoning (and therefore provokes discussion), but does not require value judgments on the part of the mod. In other words, it avoids the grey areas that my analysis above has highlighted and is easily enforceable in a non-partial way. Applying that rule, all of the votes yesterday, for both Elrond and Oropher, should have counted.

I don’t expect any response to this, nor any concessions. I just wished to make my position crystal clear before politely withdrawing from the game.

It was fun while it lasted.

And for old time's sake, I shall contribute towards Lalaith's parting gift, adopting wholesale her immaculate reasoning (if that's allowed ).

+ + ELENDIL

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Phantom and Lord, you weirdos.

Ents take too long to get to the point, eh? Did it ever occur to you that Ents live far longer than you do? 'Hasty' and 'Takes too long' are both relative descriptions. Considering how sweet and wonderful Treebeard was to Merry and Pippin even though they were on the opposite end of the scale, I think it's downright nasty and despicable to hate the poor Ent based on that.

He could just as easily hate you for being unlike him but he's not like that. He's nice.

As for not doing anything of value, was it not Johnny T. himself who said that it would be better if more of us valued the simple things in life. Just because Treebeard wasn't always going around picking fights in some foreign land you want to kick him out? He just wanted to take it easy!

Plus, with the exception of Sauron, Treebeard could defeat anyone in that list in a fight – including your precious Elrond and Isildur.

Treebeard is awesome. Case closed.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

+ + Treebeard

If you leave him in some movie maker
will make him out to be a doofus easily
tricked by a couple of immature hobbitses.

[Thinlómien]

Ang has convinced me.

++Elendil

Plus, I've never been an Elendil-fan.

[the phantom]

Ang, there is something in your Elendil argument I don't agree with.

"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

You think this Elendil quote was a display of arrogance. It wasn't- it was foresight. There's a big difference.

And then this-

The fact that we have more material on Galadriel is a sign that Celeborn was indeed a loving and appreciative husband.

Either that, or perhaps Celeborn took great pleasure in displaying his trophy-wife at every opportunity, where as Elendil had enough respect for his wife to allow her to live her life as she wished and didn't insist on showing her off. Did you think of that?

Now, that said, I do believe the Elendili tribe should be trimmed soon, so a vote for Elendil isn't the worst thing in the world, though I'd rather vote off Anarion than Elendil.

But the person I'd really like to take care of is Treebeard, so I will now respond to Eomer's defense of the stiff, inactive old bore.

'Hasty' and 'Takes too long' are both relative descriptions.

Yes, relative to me, and you should know by now that I care about how things relate to me far more than how they relate to anything else.

Considering how sweet and wonderful Treebeard was...
He's nice.

WHAT?!

Take your time reading the line below, Eomer. Let it sink in.

Treebeard....was...not....nice.

This is what Treebeard said to Merry and Pippin in the chapter entitled "Treebeard"-

But if I had seen you, before I heard your voices- I liked them: nice little voices; they reminded me of something I cannot remember- if I had seen you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, taking you for little Orcs, and found out my mistake afterwards.

The only reason Treebeard didn't squash Merry and Pippin immediately was that he thought their voices were cute. That doesn't sound very nice to me.

Treebeard needs to go.

And now, to respond briefly to Sauce.

He has not explained which votes from yesterday were discounted and which were not.

I explained though. Can't you infer from my explanation what probably happened?

I fail to see why votes for Elrond because of perceived character flaws (mormegil’s and Elu Ancalime’s, for example) should be discounted.

Oh, come on, you're just being stubborn. "Elrond is a sissy" is obviously not a legitimate argument. No where in Tolkien's books does Tolkien hint at Elrond being a sissy. On the contrary, Tolkien describes him as strong. If Formendacil accepted a vote that said "Elrond is a sissy", he would have to accept a vote for Sauron that said "Sauron is a messy eater".

When making a vote, you can't just claim personality flaws without a reason, particularly flaws that are completely absent from Tolkien's writings. That is extremely easy to understand, SPM, so don't even try and wiggle around and pretend that you don't get why morm and Elu's votes were likely not counted. I'm sure the two of them understand completely.

The people who voted for Oropher put their finger cleary on the fact that not much was written about Oropher. The people who called Elrond a sissy or unwise or whatever weren't putting their finger clearly on anything at all. If you don't understand this then you are conciously trying not to.

the phantom discounts TORE’s vote because it refers back to spawn’s reasoning. On that basis, the votes of Celuien and (particularly) lord of dor-lomin would also need to be discounted

Nope. False.

TORE did not quote Spawn's reasoning, nor did he attempt to put the reasoning into his own words. All he said was that he was leaning towards her reasoning.

Celuien and lord, on the other hand, both gave reasoning in their own words. That is an important difference. When you are at school, do teachers allow you to answer a question "I think the same thing as John does"? No, they expect you to give the answer in your own words, even if your reasoning is the same as John's.

That is the situation here. Don't even try and argue it. It mirrors what is considered an acceptable practice elsewhere, so rather than complain or fight it just live with it.

[Elu Ancalime]

Lommy........<sigh> (I like Elendil)

++Treebeard

He really didnt do anything, and besides, he could've prevented the attack on the Entwives. If the Ents checked up the Wives more regularly, maybe the Wives would have stayed West of the ANduin, and Sauron might have left them alone.

SpM, you do have a point about character flaws. This may invalidate my own vote for Elrond, but to an extemt you are right. It is Tolkien-based if one makes a vote based on an assumption from character. However....I regret to say I can not find any direct proof that Elrond is a sissy. That is my perception of him (in a Mirthful way) But then there would be exact specifications on what can and can not be assumed, if assumption is allowed. But then a character like Oropher would be gone, only because 'he never did anything.' So, putting it in that perspective, I would then theoretically totally support Elrond, and campaign against 'idles', but then if that was true, Formendacil, or any other Survivor Mod should not have put Idles in to maintain that.

Oh, come on, you're just being stubborn. "Elrond is a sissy" is obviously not a legitimate argument. No where in Tolkien's books does Tolkien hint at Elrond being a sissy. On the contrary, Tolkien describes him as strong. If Formendacil accepted a vote that said "Elrond is a sissy", he would have to accept a vote for Sauron that said "Sauron is a messy eater".

But see, assuming Formendacil is a government and not one person, a vote like that should be accepted regardless because most ballots anywhere dont have three lines after where you write why. If that was true, then the democratic world would have the best leaders. My dad once made a joke that he couldnt vote for Al Gore in '00, because:

"Joe Lieberman looks funny"

Now he didnt do that, but nobody cares about that, because in popular vote, the idea is that the people can vote for any candidate. Debates and speeches are for the people, so that they can think why they would consider this candidate. The reasoning is for the person, not the people. As a person, they have justification to vote for somebody and not have to tell anybody else who they voted for or why, because they wouldnt vote unless they had a reason, no matter how silly. Even the fact that most people only see one side of an issue, if they are completely ignorant to the fact, they are allowed to vote. That is an example that nobodys perfect.

Also, this was posted in Formendacil's opening post and other past Survivor Mod posts. Obviously this is Formen's game, but just a general idea of Survivor. Survivor Sillmarillion was a little bit different as it including reasoning on challenges, so i dont think its liable in this instance.

=Formy The person will be evicted from the game by the voting of YOU the readers

I assume this implies personal justification, which is eprsonal.

=Glirdan2) You have to come up with a funny excuse for you reason to vote that person out. It can be an inside joke or something that everyone will get. It doesn't matter as long as it's comedic.3) Lastly (and most importantly I might add), HAVE FUN!!!!!

This is a little critisism for Formen, but Boromir88 who created survivor on the Downs said this.

Please list votes like so ++Frodo, and it would be funner if you give an explanation as to why. By all means, this is Middle-earth Mirth, think of something totally whacky.

Since this is Mirth, I think the silly and absurd reasoning should be allowed to a healthy point. I really did not expect a bandwagon to start about how sissy somebody was. I expected a bandwagon about evicting Elrond.
________
Vt800

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by a phantom

Oh, come on, you're just being stubborn. "Elrond is a sissy" is obviously not a legitimate argument. No where in Tolkien's books does Tolkien hint at Elrond being a sissy.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

This is, don't forget, a Tolkien-based game. So, I would like to see, if possible, some reasoning, preferably Tolkien-based, no matter how illogical or distorted, to accompany your votes.

[Eonwe]

++Ohtar

If you think the Elindili need some thinning out, choose this guy. Once again, I don't know who he is. That should say it all.

Lommy, I am shocked into speachlessness. What makes you not an Elindil fan? Is there some hidden blemish to his character? Some moral deficiency?

As for this:

Originally Posted by Lalaith

WHY don't we know his wife's name? Kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, was she, when the census taker came to call?

I have but one thing to say. For shame.

We don't the the man's wife's name because she never did anything important enough to be mentioned. That is her business. To have it used to tarnish Elindil's good name is entirely rediculous.

I am certainly in for it. Here in the first round, I am having to throw out portest votes, and the choices of those are even pretty slim...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

The problem is that, even with Formendacil’s explanation, we are still left with no clear understanding of the basis upon which votes will be counted or discounted. He has not explained which votes from yesterday were discounted and which were not. Even had he done so, the position would be far from clear.

I agree. I've admitted that keeping which votes were accepted and which ones weren't (although some can be deduced) was a mistake. It is, however, a mistake that is over and done. All the records I've kept are the ones that you see on this thread.

For that reason therefore, I am not going to go back and list all of yesterday's votes and explain which ones are acceptable, and which ones aren't- because with the eyes of everyone on me, and being in a different frame of mind, I may well count differently and I have no desire to be further accused of bias.

What's done is done.

I shall, however- AND ALL YE TAKE HEED- be counting votes today based on Tolkien-related criteria. I shall analyse each vote and give a verdict. I should have done this before, but I didn't, I apologise, and at least I am doing it now.

To take a phantom’s ever so unbiased ( ) analysis as an example, I fail to see why votes for Elrond because of perceived character flaws (mormegil’s and Elu Ancalime’s, for example) should be discounted. Those personality flaws are necessarily Tolkien-based because they are based upon the voter’s perception of a character invented by Tolkien, albeit a perception undoubtedly (and, in my view, legitimately) skewed for game/humour purposes. They could, I suppose, have said something like “based on his behaviour in Middle-earth, he comes across to me as a sissy”, but what is the point of that? The first part of that sentence is surely implied by the context. Calling a vote into question simply because no specific reference is made to Tolkien or Middle-earth necessarily requires a value judgment to be made by the mod (as to whether he agrees with the reasons given by the voter). That is unacceptable as it brings the mod’s partiality into question and leads to far too much uncertainty.

The Phantom's analysis was not perfect- it was not MY analysis. However, I will say that it came close on some points...

Mod's partiality?

My dear SPM, have you completely forgotten the Silmarillion Survivor? Anguirel was partial to certain parties- very partial to certain parties.

He gave several characters a free bye into the later rounds by not introducing them till then, and (probably faulty) memory seems to recall him summarily killing off some of the characters simply because their "time had come".

If these votes are to be discounted, then why not also discount the votes for Oropher which simply relied on the fact that he is not mentioned by Tolkien much and so, by implication, did not do much? There is hardly any more intelligent reasoning involved. I can think of better reasons to give for evicting Oropher, such as that his rash charge in the War of the Last Alliance imperilled his side’s victory and got a lot of his people unnecessarily slain. So, if the votes of morm and Elu are to be discounted, then all of the votes for Oropher should also be discounted, leading to Elrond’s eviction.

But I would count all of those votes. On that basis, the only votes for Elrond which might arguably be discounted are those which were cast by Diamond and Gil-Galad as they did not relate to the character in question but to game events. That would leave Elrond and Oropher on five votes each and lead to a double eviction. Possibly a fair result.

Or one might take a different approach. A phantom discounts TORE’s vote because it refers back to spawn’s reasoning. On that basis, the votes of Celuien and (particularly) lord of dor-lomin would also need to be discounted, leaving Elrond with four votes and Oropher with three, resulting in Elrond’s eviction.

You see the problem? Even with a vague indication that only Tolkien-based votes will count, the game is still riddled with grey areas. Too much scope for mod partiality and too little certainty to make the game enjoyable. As I have said, the way that this game has been played involves a fair bit of effort and it all seems rather pointless when that effort comes to nothing on the whim of the mod.

Perhaps then, having made thorough analysis of the whole "Tolkien criteria" issue, you will see why I wanted to keep whose votes were in and whose votes were out a secret?

Formendacil, you have said that you have not been rigging the votes. I fully accept that you did not act in bad faith. Nevertheless, the fact that you chose to count the votes for Khamul, even though this issue was raised (by me) during that day of voting, but discount certain votes for Elrond does not give me any comfort in this regard. Even though you may not have consciously have rigged it and thought that you were acting fairly, it is clear to me that there was a degree of partiality involved in the manner in which you exercised your discretion.

I don't deny there was a degree of partiality- I think I have admitted to that a long time ago. I also don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

As for you raising "the issue" on the day of Khamûl's eviction, I maybe should have cracked down then on non-eligible voting. In my mind, I didn't want to be overly dictatorial: in other words, I didn't want something overblown like this to occur. My original intention in stipulating Tolkien-based rationale for votes was to discourage one-liner posts. Therefore, I didn't want to be putting the Mod's boot down on the necks of the players so eagerly. I wanted, rightly or wrongly, to wait a couple days and see if a trend towards greater post length/reasoning developed.

It didn't...

That I chose yesterDay to put my foot down was, I thought, a somewhat politically astute choice. Neither the Elrond party nor the Oropher party was winning by a landside (one vote's difference, I believe). Nor did I REALLY care to save either character, so I hoped to avoid accusations of bias. I PREFERRED Elrond, but not with the passionate drive of the Phantom.

In past games, the rule, I believe, has been, not that Tolkien-based reasoning was required, but that reasoning of some kind at least was required. In other words, votes for a character without more were not allowed. That works well, because it forces people to give some sort of reasoning (and therefore provokes discussion), but does not require value judgments on the part of the mod. In other words, it avoids the grey areas that my analysis above has highlighted and is easily enforceable in a non-partial way. Applying that rule, all of the votes yesterday, for both Elrond and Oropher, should have counted.

Alas, but perhaps I was doomed to problems in this field... When I say "Tolkien-based criteria", what I MEAN is "rational reasons", and since all of these characters come, in their entirety, from Tolkien, the word Tolkien has been used. It is perhaps not the wisest choice of words on my part, but I don't think that I've been unreasonable in expecting them to interpreted as intended. Show me where Elrond, Oropher, Khamûl, or any other is shown to us by anyone other than Tolkien (or Tolkien Jr.) and I'll gladly rescind the rule.

I don’t expect any response to this, nor any concessions. I just wished to make my position crystal clear before politely withdrawing from the game.

It was fun while it lasted.

I'm truly sorry to hear that. You have been, and I wish you could continue to be, one of the more entertaining players: you get drawn into the alliances, but you avoid getting entrenched too deep in them, as some do. You have always included a rationale for your votes. You are erudite and witty, and you have the value-adding gift to this game of inspiring grudges and revenge among those less fortunate.

If however, you feel that this game is rigged, unfair, and unjust, or that there is too much bad blood here to continue, then yes, you ought to leave. No sense in prolonging this pained situation longer...

And, regarding prolonging this pained situation, is there even a consensus that I should bother trying to keep running this game?

I don't want to step down. As Mod, I thought I had a pretty good game going. I was proud, in a parental way perhaps, of the alliances and petty grudges the players had developed. I thought I had put a pretty good cast of characters together, and that I doing a good, clean job of keeping my Moderator's Nose clean and unbiased.

I have been more than a little offended by the accusations against me, and although I don't bear any one particular 'Downer, or even a particular four or five 'Downers any ill will outside of this thread, I am irked at how large an issue this has grown into.

I remain,

~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~

P.S. Analysis of votes coming up in the next post, to be followed by the official Day End. Any votes cast after this post will be counted towards tomorrow's tally.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

And YET, according to Form's final vote count, Elrond only got 6 votes. And then he proceeded to disqualify 4 of those for whatever reason.

Sorry, just replying to this as I go through the thread counting votes...

Under the system of "a vote cast is a vote counted", one can skim a thread pretty quick when counting votes. It seems that I miscounted on the original tally, since I trust your accounting here to be accurate.

It's entirely possible that if you went back to Day 1, 2, 3, 4, or whatnot, you'd find a similar mistake. I'm very much human, and I probably missed someone's vote in the tallying.

My apologies. Nobody's vote was disqualified under the "a vote case is a vote counted" system.

[Formendacil]

Okay, let’s being this… starting from the top:

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

++CELEBORN

He's just a silver-haired shadow of his gorgeous golden-haired wife. (Telperion and Laurelin, anyone?)

Come on! You know you love him...not!

Lhuna makes a direct reference to Celeborn’s state in life: his marriage to Galadried (and then includes details of their appearance).

This vote is COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Rather than breathing new life into the Amandil campaign, (because I appreciated that defence of him earlier) I wish to examine a new candidate: Elendil himself.

Look at his overwhelming arrogance!

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta

"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

Says who? He clearly doesn't know about Elessar XIII getting turned into a frog by Alatar in the Fifth Age...

Seriously, the man's bombast and presumption is far more staggering than Ar-Pharazon's (who was merely fighting the age-old struggle against overweening Valar Nanny Statism).

What this fellow is doing is landing-as a refugee, an immigrant seeking asylum-in lands held by fellow men.

There are two ways of dealing with being an immigrant.

The Parsee way, where you put yourself at the disposal of the local government and form a useful part of the existing community.

And the American Colonists way, where you declare the land yours and cripple the existing cultures.

Elendil, as his words show, clearly employed the second. Because of some notional Eru-given right, he drove out the indiginous "Twilight Men", ancestors of the Rohirrim, Dunlendings et al., forcing them to submit to vassalage under him or Sauron. Do not forget that many of these were Edain, just Edain who'd chosen to resist the Valar-coddling enterprise of Numenor! And all were Men! He should have respected their existing rights.

You damned Gil-Galad for far less (for no reason at all, as far as I can gather) when his tribe was in no especial dominating position.

But these Elendili are now running the show.

These genocidal interlopers must be stopped.

Alliance, League, whatever, just vote

++ELENDIL

Okay, do I even need to explain why Anguirel’s vote is going to be COUNTED? Anguriel ties his argument directly in to what Elendil did or did not do.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

++ Celeborn

He didn't deserve his wife. He was complacent, calling himself lord while letting her rule. Not that letting her rule was the problem, she was better at it anyway. Calling himself lord is what's the sham, if we're going to talk about shams. Celebrimbor was the better Elf.

LMP directly references Celeborn’s history, and the apparent dominance of Galadriel in their relationship. His final line about Celebrimbor being better would probably have discounted him for me, had it been the only reason given, since “better” is a highly opinionated word to use- although one could make the case that it would still be a Tolkien-rationale. However, LMP has already given a reason I’m counting as valid.

COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Celuien

The Elendili are currently the strongest tribe and in need of thinning to keep balance. I'll go with Ang's argument that Elendil's hubris is beyond excuse.

Besides that, shouldn't he have done a little better job teaching Isildur to avoid things like shiny rings forged by Dark Lords? Would have saved Middle-earth tons of trouble if he did.

++ELENDIL

Had Celuien only posted her first line as her criteria (about the Elendili leading) this vote would have been discounted. Had we stuck with the first paragraph, it would have been dependent on Ang’s reasoning (and referring to other people’s reasoning, while not outright banned, is something I’m iffy about, though I allow it for now).

However, Celuien moves on in her second paragraph to give a firm, fine basis for a vote. She references Elendil’s relationship as to Isildur, as father, and references the events that took place in Tolkien’s world just after his death, laying the blame, right or wrong, at Elendil’s feet.

This vote is, therefore, easily COUNTED.

Originally Posted by lord of dor-lomin

I say we get rid of Treebeard. He didn't do anything of note in the Second Age.

I think the ents might be better off without him. Maybe a younger, more "hasty" ent would take charge, like Quickbeam.

+ + Treebeard

Again, this vote is COUNTED, in this case because of a direct reference to the fact that Quickbeam is hastier than Treebeard- and thus a better leader. Rather sorry logic regarding hastiness/leaders in my opinion, but it’s Tolkien-based, so the vote stands.

Originally Posted by the Phantom

Ooo, Eomer isn't going to like this, but I simply must, since I've been given an easy opportunity to bump him off.

+ + Fangorn (Treebeard)

I hate people who take to long to get to the point, and so I am very much anti-ent to begin with. And then consider, how much good do ents really do? Except for once every few thousand years they don't do anything of value. And they aren't even decent enough chaps to travel with their wives, but instead they just let them wander off to meet their fate alone.

If posted with only that first line, this vote of the Phantom’s would note have been counted. While ticking off other players is a noble and wise pursuit in and of itself, votes to evict candidates must be related to the candidate being voted for.

Hence, it is the second paragraph here that allows this vote to be counted. The Phantom directly refers to the unhastiness of Ents, the fact that they generally remain aloof, and their separation from the Entwives.

I must say, though, that did we not know that Treebeard was guilty of all these general Entish tendencies, I probably wouldn’t count this vote, since it isn’t directly related to Treebeard himself. However, we DO know that Treebeard was personally guilty of all these Entish faults, and so the vote is COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

++ELENDIL

Reasons:
a. Too many Elendili
b. He got the Faithful out of Numenor, he'd done his bit. Why put him through the rigours of Survivor as well?
c. Ang's right. WHY don't we know his wife's name? Kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, was she, when the census taker came to call? For shame.

Again, this vote is COUNTED.

Lalaith’s first reason, too many Elendili, on its own, would discount it. What has this to do with Elendil himself? From an in-Middle-Earth perspective, the Elendili were vastly outnumbered anyway.

Her second reason is valid, since it refers to something that Elendil actually did. Although voting people off out of mercy seems a bit counter-intuitive, it’s Tolkien-based, so I’m more than willing to let it stand.

Her third reason would also be valid. Tolkien DIDN’T ever give us Mrs. Elendil’s name. Illogical speculation related thereto is a permissible rationale for voting.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

And for old time's sake, I shall contribute towards Lalaith's parting gift, adopting wholesale her immaculate reasoning (if that's allowed ).

+ + ELENDIL

As with Part A of Celuien’s vote, whether or not SPM’s vote is counted depends on whether or not Lalaith’s is counted. Since Lalaith’s was counted, and since I have not discounted rationale-by-direct-reference-to-another-‘Downer’s-list proxy- despite misgivings-, this vote is also COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

+ + Treebeard

If you leave him in some movie maker will make him out to be a doofus easily tricked by a couple of immature hobbitses.

Sorry, Tuor, but yours is the first vote to be disqualified. There is no reference to anything that Treebeard actually does, or fails to do, or has happen to him- not even a connection to etymology of his name.

This vote is NOT COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Ang has convinced me.

++Elendil

Plus, I've never been an Elendil-fan.[/b]

Much like SPM’s this vote would not be counted if I had not already counted Anguirel’s.

COUNTED, albeit a bit grudgingly.

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

Lommy........<sigh> (I like Elendil)

++Treebeard

He really didnt do anything, and besides, he could've prevented the attack on the Entwives. If the Ents checked up the Wives more regularly, maybe the Wives would have stayed West of the ANduin, and Sauron might have left them alone.

Again, a direct reference to Treebeard’s lack of action, as well as a reference to the Ent/Entwife issue, laying the blame (rightly or wrongly) at Treebeard’s feet.

COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

++Ohtar

If you think the Elendili need some thinning out, choose this guy. Once again, I don't know who he is. That should say it all.

With apologies to Eonwe, this vote is discounted.

The only rationale offered is that the Elendili need thinning (see my comments on Lalaith’s Reason 1 for why this is discounted) and that Eonwe doesn’t know who Ohtar is.

NOT COUNTED.



Okay, now, here we are at the end of all votes... for toDay...

The official records post will be up with these results momentarily.

[Formendacil]

The Twelth day of voting was deeply troubled by arguments amongst the voting spectators. Many disappeared in the disturbance. All Arda Envinyanta seemed stirred by the accusations of corruption. In the end, after a comprehensive vote-counting, the voting fell as follows:

Celeborn: II

Elendil: III

Fangorn (Treebeard): IIII

EDIT:

Okay, here's the reason why I shouldn't be trusted, if any reason exists...

I just switched up the positions of Elendil and Fangorn...

I even had them counted right, too.

So, the true tally is:

Celeborn: II

Fangorn: III

Elendil: IIII

Meaning that this is nonsense:

NOT EDIT: Perhaps it was a subtle revenge at the often wordy Moderator that Treebeard was evicted, perhaps it was simply a strike at Eomer of the Rohirrim. Whatever the case, Fangorn of Fangorn was out of the game.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Noldor:
Elrond Peredhil
Galadriel
Celebrimbor

Tribe of the Sindar:
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían

Tribe of the Númenoreans:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the Elendili:
Amandil
Anárion
Ohtar

Tribe of the Other Speakers:
Narvi
Fangorn
Fimbrethil

Tribe of the Baddies:
Sauron
The Witch-king

Day 13 may now begin. I'd like to hope that my voting-analysis will clear things up a little, and that Day 13 will see a few more votes for characters (and really, having seen what you need to do, is it all THAT hard?) than today. 'Tis is truly ignominious way for Elendil to go, with four votes out of nine...

P.S. Thanks to the Phantom for pointing out my counting error.

[Diamond18]

I will give things another try, since I am already having plus plus withdrawals. Provided you continue to give reasons for any future disqualifications I think that gives me at least something to measure off of. Of course, once the werewolf game finally starts I may be gone anyway, screaming "Don't kill me!" hysterically and unable to concentrate on anything else.

Anyway, on to it. If I haven't rambled too long, I may just be getting in the first vote of the day.

In my mind, and this may sound strange but it is true, the most damning thing Elendil ever did was name his sword Narsil. Of course, technically Tolkien only says, "...and it was named Narsil" but we can safely assume that Elendil, being the first owner of said sword, would have been the one to christen it. Narsil is, forgive me, the most butt-ugly name in all of Tolkiendom. It sounds like the bastard love child of an air freshener and a hair removal product. Thank goodness Aragorn had the sense to rename it. Wouldn't you rather weild Andúril? I know you would.

I'll get you, my pretty,

+ + Elendil,

and your little sword too!

[Diamond18]

Celeborn: II

Fangorn: III

Treebeard: IIII

Well, now I'm just confused....

[the phantom]

Well, now I'm just confused....

Heh.

I think we should just assume that Elendil is dead, because the post in which Lord Formendacil counts everyone's votes shows Elendil with the most counted votes.

Unless there was an error in that post.

[Diamond18]

So I voted for a dead guy? I've spoken ill of the dead? I've stomped all over Elendil's grave, adding insult to mortal injury? I am SO bad.

[Formendacil]

Good grief!

I am far too tired to be up at this late hour... look at the silly mistakes I've been making.

I'll fix it...

[The Saucepan Man]

OK, I have decided to continue playing, primarily for three reasons.

First, the basis upon which votes are to be counted and discounted is now abundantly clear.

Secondly, I cannot resist a bit of flattery.

And thirdly, while I still have misgivings over the events leading to the evictions of Khamul and Oropher, Formendacil has put a lot of work into this game and has, on the whole, been doing an excellent job.

I would add that I do not necessarily oppose the Mod being partial. As you say, Anguirel was incredibly biased in his game, but he was so obvious and elegant in his partiality that it was rather charming. My main gripe was that we knew not where we stood, since the basis upon which votes were to be counted or discounted was entirely unclear and it seemed wrong to me to take advantage of that to promote a previously undisclosed partiality. However, that has now been rectified as we now know where we stand, and I thank you for that, Formendacil. I actually think that you should, going forward, discount reasoning that relies (without more) entirely on the reasoning of others, as it makes it too easy to put in a vote in support of someone. But you should, of course, give notice if you intend to follow that course.

I should perhaps make it clear that, my return notwithstanding, the Alliance of Ultra-DOOM as an entity is no longer participating in this game. It may return one day. But, for now, my participation in this game is as an independent. I am willing to cut deals with other players, but will remain, in general, unaffiliated.

And I make no bones about the fact that I dedicate myself, in the first instance, to the eviction of Elrond. I may vote elsewhere if I can see any benefit in doing so but, for the most part, my vote is likely to be for Elrond each Day until (hopefully) he is evicted.

And so, without further ado:

+ + ELROND

My reasoning.

First, he should, by rights, already have gone.

Secondly, he has already had a number of tries at winning a Survivor contest and failed on each occasion. His desperation to win is rather unappealing and faintly sad in one who should be dignified.

Thirdly, he is a cissy.

Of course, none of those reasons will count.

And so, fourthly:

It seems entirely inappropriate to me, in the midst of the turmoil of the Second Age, for one who should have been contributing so much more to the struggle to absent himself from it for large periods in order to establish what was, effectively, a Middle-earth hippy commune. All that telling tales round the fireplace, singing “Tra-la-la-lally, down here in the valley” and communing with nature is all very well, and charming in its place, but not when the forces of Sauron are encamped on one’s doorstep.

It might be said that establishing a stronghold and defending it with great power provided a valuable refuge for Elves in such a time of trouble. But that, surely, is not the true Noldorin way. Any Noldor worth his salt should be looking for any opportunity to engage the enemy and be willing to nobly sacrifice himself and his people in a vain but glorious effort to make his mark. Did Elrond not learn from the First Age that hiding away in a secret refuge very rarely comes to any good and, at the very least, does irreparable harm to one’s reputation? Just ask yourself. Which First Age Noldorian gained the greatest notoriety. Feanor or Turgon? Elrond was the Turgon of his Age.

To his credit, Elrond did march with Gil-Galad in the War of the Last Alliance, but Gil-Galad was clearly so unimpressed with his battle skills, after all that arty, tree-hugging Imladris stuff, that he relegated him to the role of a mere standard bearer. “You just carry that pretty little flag, Elrond, and keep yourself out of any trouble,” he no doubt said.

And Elrond even bungled the one serious job which fell to him in the entire endeavour, that of persuading Isildur to destroy the Ring. Had he been able to accomplish just that one, simple task, a lot of fuss and bother would have been avoided.

I implore you, my fellow players, free this game from the stranglehold of the phantom’s machinations and let justice be done. Evict Elrond today.

Oh, and if you do decide to vote for him, don't forget to give sound Tolkien-based reasons.

[Anguirel]

Elrond was not Turgon, because Rivendell was not Gondolin. Rivendell was a happy! accepting! nice! place. It had no element of Elven scariness and hauteur, while retaining Elven culture and skill.

Without Rivendell:

All the survivors from Eregion would have been massacred
Sauron would have conquered Eriador
The line of Arnor could not have survived
And the sweet little Hobbits would be completely doomed...

That apart: I support hippy communes. What is wrong with peace, love and brotherhood?

And so I shall vote once again against the supreme exemplar of fascistic, militaristic, non-hung loose unchilledness.

++SAURON

Just like Elrond, he's been in every Survivor so far; but he won't admit it, hiding beneath aliases like "Gorthaur" or "The Necromancer". He's even come second once, but he's still not satisfied. He thinks he has a "right" to win; he needs to be disillusioned, and soon.

I'm talking to an electorate that has, despite some blips, generally supported the downtrodden and relatively obscure. Anarion, Ohtar and Amandil have been protected before their illustrious relatives.

Can such an electorate allow Sauron-the most predictable, tedious, megalomaniac candidate of them all-to progress?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Rivendell was a happy! accepting! nice! place. It had no element of Elven scariness and hauteur, while retaining Elven culture and skill.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

That apart: I support hippy communes. What is wrong with peace, love and brotherhood?

All very well and good, but entirely inappropriate in such troubled times.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

All the survivors from Eregion would have been massacred

Better to die nobly and with honour on the field of battle than shamefully skulk away in some arty-farty commune. Surely, Ang, you recognise that neither Feanor nor his sons would have approved.

Sauron would have conquered Eriador
The line of Arnor could not have survived
And the sweet little Hobbits would be completely doomed...

Pure speculation. And the well-being of Hobbits is, for the purposes of this contest, irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Just like Elrond, he's been in every Survivor so far; but he won't admit it, hiding beneath aliases like "Gorthaur" or "The Necromancer". He's even come second once, but he's still not satisfied. He thinks he has a "right" to win; he needs to be disillusioned, and soon.

I do not disagree. I expect Sauron's time to come. But given the current balance between the tribes, I do not believe that time is now.

[Celuien]

No! Not Elrond again!

There is another Elf far more worthy of eviction. I speak of the responsibility shirking Cirdan.

While Elrond was in Rivendell, defending a stronghold against Sauron and Celeborn/Galadriel did the same in Lorien, what was Cirdan doing? Nothing. Sitting at the Havens building ships and just waiting to leave for Elvenhome. Further proof of his complete disinterest in aiding the Free Folk of Middle-earth is demonstrated in his giving his ring away to Gandalf. Obviously he was looking for someone else to take over the job he was entrusted with when given his ring. Thus, Elrond deserves to stay. Cirdan does not.

++CIRDAN

PS I'm willing to vote for Sauron But not yet... I'll change my vote if necessary to save Elrond.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

+ + Tar-Miriel

Suffice it to say she was no Boudica (Boadicea). Numenorean
feminists must have been very disappointed in her. There
could have been a cool civil war, with perhaps elvsees with
bright, shining swords helping out the king's (queen's)
men/fighters/whatever.

It's difficult to imagine Eowyn, Galadriel, Lobelia, etc.
reacting in such a supine manner. (Picture of Lobelia going
after Ar-Pharazon with her umbrella).

[arcticstorm]

While his skills may be interesting, such as reading moon letters and calling large counsels to argue the fate of the entire free world, he really doesn't do much to help his tribe, therefore for staying at home and sending others to their doom while he remains in his comortable homely house reading hidden letters on maps ++Elrond.