Speculations and another 'what if' scenario - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Darth Mithrandir · 10-20-2003, 02:11 PM

The nine were sent from Minus Morgul to reclaim that which was lost. Lets just say for example that Farmer Maggot went into league with the Witch King and turned Frodo in when he came along. OK.... I know this doesn't seem like a likely scenario, however you can go back and see that Frodo was indeed concerned about his reception by Maggot. Another instance would have been Bill Ferney in Bree. My point is that now the ring is in the hands of the Nazgul.

The all corrupting power of the ring in the hands of one of its servants. Would the Witch King have kept the ring for himself or actually return it to Sauron? None of the 'good' claimed to have the power to withstand said ring, would his servants remain loyal if this were the case?

Understandably, the results would have ended up the same by placing a Dark Lord in control in the long run. Would the king have moved to Mordor or reclaimed Angmar? Another thing to consider (and I know this is rewriting Tolkien), is who would have become loyal to Angmar? What kind of battle scenarios would have taken place? Would these battles have occured on Pelanor, or would Sauron have made a 'last stand' in attempt to recover the ring?

Olorin_TLA · 10-20-2003, 03:32 PM

Ah, Sauron knew what He was doing here. Anyone else: (just check out Grishnak in the chapter "The Uruk-Hai") they would have claimed the Ring. But not the Nazgul. They were enitrely under Sauron's dominion. they had no say in anything anymore. It was actually impossible for them to take the Ring for themselves: they were so utterly under Sauron's control, they couldn't take it even if he hung it outside their door on a string and shook it in front of their faces.

C'mon you know he would if eh had the chance... :P

Darth Mithrandir · 10-20-2003, 07:41 PM

Yabut! The Nazgul were enslaved to the power of the ring, not necessarily the ringbearer; To be slave to the master is one thing, but enslaved to a thing could be considered a totally different matter.

Chew on the concept and get back with me. I'll do some more reading to see what power the ring / master really had over its / his dominion.

miellien · 10-21-2003, 01:46 AM

I thought the "wraith" world was strictly Sauron's dominion. Whether he had the Ring or not. He had a hand in creating the Nine, and domination would certainly have been a part of that creation. If the Nazgul have any independnce, why are they willing to be consumed in a fiery mt. instead of using their "magic" to take over once the big S is out of the way?

Eggy · 10-21-2003, 06:00 AM

But my understanding of the situation was that they were bound to the ring and its master, they like the "will" of the ring itself wished it to return to the hand of its master

Darth Mithrandir · 10-21-2003, 10:55 AM

Consider the weapons forged in Arnor (Fornost). The ones obtained in the Downs. I still have some research to do on this one, however if you've read the novels 'FOTR' you'll note that WK died as a result of the stroke from one of such devices. It was a spell upon the sword which Merry wielded that made him mortal once more. A man, susceptible to the will of the ring.

Give me a couple of days to dig, and I'll have more to support this theory. However, if you have more relevant knowledge that WK was under the dominion of the master and not the ring (even though the one ring controlled the other 19), please enlighten us. I still question the validity of pure corruption remaining loyal to only one person. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

edit: see also, this thread - Sauron's knowledge of the Istari
Sauron's knowledge of the Istari

[ October 21, 2003: Message edited by: Darth Mithrandir ]

Olorin_TLA · 10-21-2003, 11:30 AM

Tolkien said that if Frodo had

***SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!***

kept the Ring at Mount Doom, and commanded the Nazgul to obey him, they wouldn't (though they might pretend to); they wouldn't take it by force either htough, at first, however: they'd stall for time until Sauron arrived. But they'd never obey Frodo.

Rumil · 10-21-2003, 04:24 PM

I believe the answer to this is in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter on the hunt for the ring. Haven't got UT to hand at the moment, but it says that the Nazgul were the only servants that Sauron could trust to bring the ring back to him as he completely dominated them. I'm not totally convinced (either way) but many have said that Sauron actually held the nine rings, rather than the Nazgul wearing them, presumably that means he had them by the short and curlies (or undead equivalent!).

Interestingly, in one version of the hunt for the ring, the Nazgul stop off to question Saruman at Isengard. Saruman denies that he has the ring and claims that otherwise the Nazgul would serve him. Therefore if one of the 'wise' had succumbed to the power of the ring, the Nazgul would likely be under their command.

10-20-2003, 02:11 PM	#1
Darth Mithrandir Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Deserted Earth Posts: 18	Speculations and another 'what if' scenario The nine were sent from Minus Morgul to reclaim that which was lost. Lets just say for example that Farmer Maggot went into league with the Witch King and turned Frodo in when he came along. OK.... I know this doesn't seem like a likely scenario, however you can go back and see that Frodo was indeed concerned about his reception by Maggot. Another instance would have been Bill Ferney in Bree. My point is that now the ring is in the hands of the Nazgul. The all corrupting power of the ring in the hands of one of its servants. Would the Witch King have kept the ring for himself or actually return it to Sauron? None of the 'good' claimed to have the power to withstand said ring, would his servants remain loyal if this were the case? Understandably, the results would have ended up the same by placing a Dark Lord in control in the long run. Would the king have moved to Mordor or reclaimed Angmar? Another thing to consider (and I know this is rewriting Tolkien), is who would have become loyal to Angmar? What kind of battle scenarios would have taken place? Would these battles have occured on Pelanor, or would Sauron have made a 'last stand' in attempt to recover the ring? __________________ All that glitters is not gold, Nor are we all getting old.

10-20-2003, 03:32 PM	#2
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Ah, Sauron knew what He was doing here. Anyone else: (just check out Grishnak in the chapter "The Uruk-Hai") they would have claimed the Ring. But not the Nazgul. They were enitrely under Sauron's dominion. they had no say in anything anymore. It was actually impossible for them to take the Ring for themselves: they were so utterly under Sauron's control, they couldn't take it even if he hung it outside their door on a string and shook it in front of their faces. C'mon you know he would if eh had the chance... :P __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

10-20-2003, 07:41 PM	#3
Darth Mithrandir Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Deserted Earth Posts: 18	Yabut! The Nazgul were enslaved to the power of the ring, not necessarily the ringbearer; To be slave to the master is one thing, but enslaved to a thing could be considered a totally different matter. Chew on the concept and get back with me. I'll do some more reading to see what power the ring / master really had over its / his dominion. __________________ All that glitters is not gold, Nor are we all getting old.

10-21-2003, 01:46 AM	#4
miellien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: a small village called INSOMNIA Posts: 32	I thought the "wraith" world was strictly Sauron's dominion. Whether he had the Ring or not. He had a hand in creating the Nine, and domination would certainly have been a part of that creation. If the Nazgul have any independnce, why are they willing to be consumed in a fiery mt. instead of using their "magic" to take over once the big S is out of the way? __________________ "Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."- ~"Beautiful Boy" -John Lennon~

10-21-2003, 06:00 AM	#5
Eggy Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Green land of Ireland Posts: 54	But my understanding of the situation was that they were bound to the ring and its master, they like the "will" of the ring itself wished it to return to the hand of its master __________________ "A dog this good you have to feed every day"Homer Simpson

10-21-2003, 10:55 AM	#6
Darth Mithrandir Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Deserted Earth Posts: 18	Consider the weapons forged in Arnor (Fornost). The ones obtained in the Downs. I still have some research to do on this one, however if you've read the novels 'FOTR' you'll note that WK died as a result of the stroke from one of such devices. It was a spell upon the sword which Merry wielded that made him mortal once more. A man, susceptible to the will of the ring. Give me a couple of days to dig, and I'll have more to support this theory. However, if you have more relevant knowledge that WK was under the dominion of the master and not the ring (even though the one ring controlled the other 19), please enlighten us. I still question the validity of pure corruption remaining loyal to only one person. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] edit: see also, this thread - Sauron's knowledge of the Istari Sauron's knowledge of the Istari [ October 21, 2003: Message edited by: Darth Mithrandir ] __________________ All that glitters is not gold, Nor are we all getting old.

10-21-2003, 11:30 AM	#7
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Tolkien said that if Frodo had *SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!* kept the Ring at Mount Doom, and commanded the Nazgul to obey him, they wouldn't (though they might pretend to); they wouldn't take it by force either htough, at first, however: they'd stall for time until Sauron arrived. But they'd never obey Frodo. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

10-21-2003, 04:24 PM	#8
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 893	I believe the answer to this is in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter on the hunt for the ring. Haven't got UT to hand at the moment, but it says that the Nazgul were the only servants that Sauron could trust to bring the ring back to him as he completely dominated them. I'm not totally convinced (either way) but many have said that Sauron actually held the nine rings, rather than the Nazgul wearing them, presumably that means he had them by the short and curlies (or undead equivalent!). Interestingly, in one version of the hunt for the ring, the Nazgul stop off to question Saruman at Isengard. Saruman denies that he has the ring and claims that otherwise the Nazgul would serve him. Therefore if one of the 'wise' had succumbed to the power of the ring, the Nazgul would likely be under their command. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion