Immortality

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

I posted something similar to this awhile back and it didn't get much action. Since there are many new people around these ays I would like to see if anyone has anything to say.

I read the silmarillion for the second time recently and a question has beeen growing in my mind recently. Namely this: Was the immortality of the elves their bane? The reason I ask this is because it seems that many of the griefs of the Elves were caused by their long lives.
Firstly because of their long lives they had time to think about the hurts that haven been done to them. Maeglin, Feanor, etc. Their anger eventually got the better of them and they caused great hurt, when a mortal man would have died long ago.

Secondly it seems like the elves got too attached to the objects and places. Feanor and the Silmarils, Thingol and Doraiath, all the Elves and all Middle Earth. Once again their greed had time to brood and fester into something that was hurtfull. Either that or when they lost it they were extremely sorrowfull.

Well, that's my point, I know there are many advantages to being immortal and I desire to hear everybody's opinion.

[Orald]

I don't see elvish immortality as a problem, because it caused more good than bad. And there wouldn't have been much of a story to tell otherwise.
It is very hard for me to see the entire picture, because if elves were mortal from the beginning, then the Silmarils probably would have never been made, for a number of reasons. Would the Valar have summoned them into the West? If so would Feanor have been born already, or even born at all? Would he have had time to perfect his skills, gain enough experience? And so on. The entire history of ME would be drastically changed if elves were mortal. A slight problem elvish immortality may have been, but like I said before, a much better story.

[zifnab]

Good Question Dwarin. At First I had to disagree with you on the, “Was the immortality of the Elves their bane?” question. I didn’t think of immortality has being their bane/ruin/death. Now, the more I think about I see what you mean. Although I don’t think it was Eru’s intent, and that he nor the Valar, would think that the elves “in their grief and hurts of the effect of immortality” would harm another person/place in which some had done (Feanor).

All in all, men’s fate is so much different then Elves. It also seems that while some elves thought the “Doom of Men”, was only for men and that they would be content with living on ‘till the end of the world”. Some maybe were envious, in that Men, in their Death, were able to “go beyond the confines of the world”. In which elves could not’ until the end of the world. Maybe an example would be Elros, who chose to be counted amongst the kin of Men. Maybe he didn’t want the whole immortality thing had thought that living longer then men, but would eventually pass on, would be better suited for him.

I think for most Elves, immortality was not their Bane, I’m sure it did have negative effects on some. But it seems most accepted their fate with or without open eyes.

[Mithadan]

It was the inherent nature of Elves that they loved the lands where they lived and sought to foster and preserve them. As such, it was also part of their nature to wish to fix the ills done to the world by Morgoth, though this was too great a role for them to perform.

Because all else passes them by and departs, while they live on, Elvish "immortality" is a great burden as well as a blessing. As a result, Elves experience enduring sadness concerning things long gone and regret for misdeeds and choices made. It may also be that slights or offenses that a man would forget in due course are also long recalled by Elves and are the sources of resentment. However, with long life comes also some measure of wisdom to temper such ill-feelings.

Many of the poor decisions made by Elves were not well or long considered. The rebellion of the Noldor, though perhaps fostered by the long influence of Morgoth's webs of lies and deceipt, was a quick choice triggered by the Darkening of Valinor, the theft of the Silmarils and the murder of their king. It was a decision made in a days time. Maeglin's treachery, though prompted by his desire for Idril and hatred for Tuor, was likewise a rapid choice made under the unimaginable pressure of Morgoth's interrogation.

Elvish longetivity no doubt factors into these misdeeds but is not the root cause.

[Aralaithiel]

Well said, Mithadan! My thoughts exactly!

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

Point taken, Zif Durulen and Mithadan, but I believe you are missing the main idea of what I wanted to get at here.

Durulen, I am not saying immortality was a "problem". Like you said, their immortality makes a much better story than if they had been mortal. I am saying in the story, that their immortal nature was a weakness.

Interesting thoughts Zif. I hadn't looked at it quite that way (concerning their not being able to leave the concept of the world).

Mithadan, I'm not trying to say it was the cause. I meant that it inflamed them and allowed it to fester over great periods of time.

To be perfectly honest, the reason I am posting this is to put to bed the idea that elves were demi-gods. Or superhuman, or greater than men or dwarves on a base level. Alot of that seems to be going around here recently. The Legolas craze hasn't helped things either. Elves were not superior to men. This thread is an attempt at puting it into perspactive.

[Birdland]

Originally posted by Dwarin Thunderhammer:
<STRONG>To be perfectly honest, the reason I am posting this is to put to bed the idea that elves were demi-gods. Or superhuman, or greater than men or dwarves on a base level. </STRONG>

Respectfully, I have to disagree Dwarin. I think the other races did attribute superhuman qualities to the Elves. They were the First Born, closest to the Valar, and with qualities and gifts that Men could only dream of.

How man reacted to this might be a different matter altogether. The reaction might be jealousy, mistrust, awe, love, or a mixture of emotions, but their superior place in Middle Earth could not be denied.

As to whether immortality would be considered a blessing or a curse, I guess it would depend on the Elf. The concept of an Afterlife or Spirit in Tolkien's World is kind of vague, (except for the spooky, "ghosty" stuff), so it's hard to judge how people reacted to their own mortality...or immortality.

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

Respectfully, what evidence from the books, besides men's reactions, do you have to substantiate this claim?

P.s. Let me remind you tat you are human too.

[Birdland]

What? You read the book, you tell me. Just the fact that they have immortality would be enough for most. Their healing abilities, their communication with animals, their control of their own bodies or inanimate objects. The fact that they do not need to sleep. Most of these would be considered Superhuman, or supernatural abilities.

The only mortal who could come close to these gifts was Aragorn, and he had Elvish blood in him.

But hey, don't take it so personally. Their just fictional characters. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

Their immortality was a two edged sword. Particularly the oath of feanor. That caused much grief simply by the fact that the people who took it lived very very long lives. Not all elves had healing abilities I belive that was reserved for those who had been to or were decendants of those who had been to aman (the noldor) which I admit SINCE they went to aman were superior but it was no doing of their own. The ability to go without sleep? Just because they don't need to sleep they aren't suuperior.

[obloquy]

The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race. The Elves appeared on Earth earlier, but not (mythologically or geologically) much earlier; they were 'immortal', and did not 'die' except by accident. Men, when they appeared on the scene (that is, when they met the Elves), were, however, much as they now are: they 'died', even if they escaped all accidents, at about the age of 70 to 80.

Morgoth's Ring - Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

I thought that quote might be useful. Here's another similar one:

[Finrod] remains, nonetheless, in the opinion that the condition of Men before the disaster (or as we might say, of unfallen Man) cannot have been the same as that of the Elves. That is, their 'immortality' cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function.

Morgoth's Ring - Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

From this it appears that the Elves and Men were separated in nature by nothing more than their respective 'fates'. The perceived nobility of the Elves was likely more due to their history and lineage than any inherent property of their being. Their 'magical' arts were no doubt simply a result of their thousands of years of study and practice, their close connection with nature, and their relationship with the Ainur. Men would probably have had the same abilities if they had had the same history. As it was, their history was more one of darkness than light.

[Aralaithiel]

Well said, Obloquy!

[Eol]

I don't see elvish immortality as a problem, because it caused more good than bad. And there wouldn't have been much of a story to tell otherwise.

NOw why would you say that? Would there even a greater story of the elves if they had a lifespand that of humans? Things do not change much in the land of exstended life...only in the things around them.

Having "immortality" is a catch 22 menaing that you get bad with the good. It is all in how you use it.

[Elendur]

I would have to agree with Dwarin in very paticular cases only, such as the Oath of Feanor. For Maedhros and Maglor it was a curse to be immortal. They had taken the oath to get The Silmarils back no matter what, so that even when the hosts from Aman came and they could have easily gone back with the victorious host, they had to choose instead to steal the Silmarils.

And in reply to an earlier post, elves did have to sleep.

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

Of course Elendur, I believe immortality can be a bad thing as more of the exception as of the rule. Many many elves lived their lives in peace (Silvan elves, etc.) without doing great harm.

Since ythis thread is slowing down let me add one more comment/question to the mix here: Do you think that the immorttality inhibited many of the elves from doing great deeds? The Elves that were recorded as doing great deeds were mostly the Noldor,(with the exception of luthien who was part maia) and they even kept to themselves. Men on the other hand seemed more free with their lives, knowing they were going to die anyways. Just more food for thought.

[Glim Iceholder]

What? You read the book, you tell me. Just the fact that they have immortality would be enough for most.

I do disagree here also. I don't think the fact that Elves are immortal makes them "super-human" it simply makes them Elves, its makes them different. Myself, I would not want to be immortal so I definetly don't think the fact that they are immortal makes them better, like I said, it just makes them Elves. Its supernatural to us because its just different. In its own way dying of old age is "super-natural" to the Elves.

I agree with Dwarin, its always seemed weird to me that Elves are seen as god-like simply because they are immortal and more in-toned with nature. I would not say Dwarves were god-like because they have a longer lifepsan than men and are more in-toned with mining and building. Its just the different natures of each race.

This is a very interesting topic. Has anyone heared of a writer called Isobelle Carmody? I've read all her books. In a number of stories she talks about immortality. In one story "long live the giant", it tells about these fairies that live forever, but their wings are torn and useless because they had lost the will to live and to fly but they couldn't die.
Another story was set in the future and people had medicine that could make them live forever. Everyone was dull and sad execpt for one boy who had an incurible disease.
I think the elves in middle earth were sad because they knew so much and experienced so much and stuff. And maybe they sometimes got sick of life but could not die.

Of coase they could die in battle and if they lost the will to live, but living for so long is enough to make anyone depressed.

Originally posted by Dwarin Thunderhammer:
<STRONG>Their immortality was a two edged sword.</STRONG>

I have to agree with this. Immortality can be a path to limitless knowledge and skill. If you have ever seen the movie "Groundhog Day" , when he stopped trying to either have sex or kill himself he learned skills like how to play the piano very well and ice sculpt.

On the other side of the sword/story. If one wanted to die but couldn't , immortality would not be the greatest thing. Like in the case of Húrin , he was trapped by Morgoth and had no choice if he could even move or not; let alone die.

[QUOTE]from the Silmarillion: of the fifth battle
<STRONG>"Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew that he had a friendship with the King of Gondolin; but Húrin defied him, and mocked him. Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; and taking Húrin from prison he set him in a chair of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth, and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again; and he said:'Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end.'"</STRONG>

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aure entuluva ]

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

it was suggested that immortality and an affinity with nature weren't much on which to base a belief that Elves are god like...but the ancient Roman/Greek gods were also known as the Immortals [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] humans have seemingly always sought to find the secret to everlasting life (eg. the Chalice), and therefore those who possess it seem somewhat otherworldly

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Eowyn of Ithilien ]

[Glim Iceholder]

I agree with Eowyn, to humans Elves seemed great because they were jealous of their immortality. I mean that is what caused the destruction of the Numenoreans. However to a race that cared less about Elvish immortality, like say the Dwarves, they definetly didn't think that Elves were great and god-like.

[littlemanpoet]

Great topic, Dwarin!

It is worth remembering that Tolkien wrote about elves in part to correct what he saw as a sad diminution placed upon them over the years, such that they were no longer like the Tuatha de danaan of Celtic legend but had become little butterfly-winged, antenna'd buttercup-sized sprites, more akin to leprechauns and household hobgoblins and such.

Tolkien wrote about elves the way that they had been characterized long ago, as beings of power who were of Faerie, very much connected to the land, able to affect births and deaths of humans, able to mate with humans, and so forth. And inextricably tied to THIS world as opposed to the hereafter.

Others in this thread have said that elves' primary characteristics were immortality and connectedness to Arda. Still others have said that the wonder a human would have of elves has largely to do with the span of years that they are understood to have lived before the said human was born. Samwise Gamgee's desire to see Elves comes to mind. To say that the uniqueness of elves is limited to these things, is a mistake precisely because Tolkien's original purpose was to bring back the wonder of Faerie primarily through the elves. In "The Music of the Ainur", Tolkien compares the sounds the two races make. After the two new themes are introduced by Iluvatar, that of the elves is described as "deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern."

Wow! I'm amazed all over again by the beauty of Tolkien's descriptions. Anyway, as this shows, it was Iluvatar's will from the beginning that not only Melkor's rebellion, but the sorrow of the Eldar and the triumphs, however vain, of the Edain serve to reveal that "no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in [Iluvatar], nor can any alter the music in [his] despite."

So the sorrow of the Eldar (the combination of their immortality and many tragedies and defeats, such as fighting the long defeat) IS, in fact, that from which their beauty is derived. And the greatest triumphs of the Edain occur when they work WITH the Eldar instead of independently of them or against them, and that the Eldar actually ENNOBLE the Edain in their greatest triumphs, as can be most eloquently seen in Aragorn.

To summarize what I'm trying to say by all this:
1) the immortality of the Eldar may APPEAR to have been their bane, but was ever intended by Eru as part of their greatest beauty.
2) the Eldar are intended to be not only characteristically, but qualitatively different than the Edain, akin to the first theme, that of the gods, as Tolkien describes it in The Music of the Ainur.

phew!

[Voronwe]

I've always thought that the two themes that were played before Iluvatar were not themes of Elves and Men, but that one was the theme that Melkor introduced (the vain theme), and the other the theme of the children of Iluvatar (both Elves and Men together). In my eyes the 'triumphant notes' being 'woven into the solemn pattern' illustrated that any evil proceeding from Melkor worked in the end only to Illuvatar's greater glory.

What does everyone else think about this?

[Mat_Heathertoes]

Harking back to Dwarins original question touching on probably the most pivotal subject in Tolkiens mythology.

Was the immortality of the elves their bane?

I’m of the opinion that immortality was an integral part of the elves and their fate just as far as mortality formed the essence of mankind’s existence and its fate within the Circles of the World. As far as the word ‘bane’ goes, it’s meaning; fatal injury or ruin or a source of persistent annoyance or exasperation could be both fitting and yet incongruent with the history of the Elves and their civilisations before the Dominion of Men at the beginning of the Fourth Age. If one reads the Ainulindalë then it appears that the entire history of the world up to and including the End of Days is contained with the First Music of the Ainur

..and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of it’s end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Illúvatar and were silent.

and

..wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages of the Ending of the World.

Ainulindalë

Although the Valar have not seen with sight the ending of days and what was to come after the Dominion of Men, they took part in the Music of the Ainur and its 3 distinct themes. In answer to Voronwe’s earlier question, Melkor's discord aside, I always took the 1st theme to represent creation and the passage of time, the 2nd theme to be the theme of the Powers and the 3rd theme to represent both Elves [sorrow] and Men [endlessly repeated] .. as Tolkien says there were two musics blended within the one theme and …

they were utterly at variance. The once was deep and wide and beautiful. But slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes.

Ainulindalë

But I am digressing here, what I am trying to say is that the word ‘bane’ would imply that the Elves were so cursed by merely coming into existence in the form that was appointed to them; to be immortal, to be first, to be created ‘of the stuff of Earth’ as Tolkien described them. I think not, I think that just as in our own world, the mythological world of J.R.R has to have a purpose, a reason for being and those who dwell within it also have a reason and a purpose in being there. I know I have an annoying tendency to spatter these posts with quotes but if I may be permitted, JRRT’s lengthy but superb letter to Milton Waldman (131) outlines in great detail his own philosophy toward the concept of immortality and its effect down the ages on the collective psyche of the Firstborn

The ‘Elves’ are ‘immortal’, at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death.

The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when ‘slain’. But returning – and yet, when the Followers{Men} come, to teach them, and to make way for them, to ‘fade’ as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed. The Doom (of the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the cycles of the world. Since the point of view of the whole cycle is the Elvish, mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that ‘what God has purposed for Men is hidden’: a grief and an envy to the immortal Elves.

It is natural therefore to assume that in mankind’s eyes the Elves should be worthy of an almost ‘god-like’ praise when gifted with these powers of Art or ‘sub-creation’ as Tolkien himself labels it. But I think that throughout the histories, the worst excesses of mankind arise due to the effects of ‘pre-historical’ ‘Fall of Man’ and the lies of Morgoth. Mankind’s attempts to try and ‘compete’ or compare itself with the Firstborn instead of following the intended course of learning from and ‘growing through’ the elder kindred. This is illustrated in that the Gift of Men becomes the ‘Doom’, that men, even the descendants of the three Houses of Elf-Friends yearn for the Undying Lands to the eventual Downfall of Numenor and the Changing of the World.

However I believe that the Valar had good reason to summon the Elves to live with them in the West and that, in spite of the ‘Fall of the Noldor’ and the ramifications thereof, the Elves to their eventual attenuation should have all removed en-masse to Aman. The Elves’ chief source of grief was being deathless and changeless in lands filled with death and change. To have these many gifts of creation and then to see the objects of their toil swept away or destroyed by the passage of time and the actions of the Enemy was their greatest sorrow. Therefore the Valar’s intention to gather the Elves together in a land where there was no death and no changing was their way of showing their love and desire for friendship from the firstborn Children of Eru.

In that time the air of Middle-Earth became heavy with the breath of growth and mortality, and the changing and ageing of all things was hastened exceedingly; life teemed upon the soil and in the waters in the Second Spring of Arda, and the Eldar increased, and beneath the new Sun Beleriand grew green and fair.

Chapter 12 – Of Men – The Silmarillion

But many of these elves refused this summons or were exiled from Valinor in later times and it was to these people that felt the griefs of deathlessness most keenly. The realms and achievements of the Exiles and the Sindarin in Beleriand were briefly great and glorious but eventually beaten down by the passage of Time and the Enemy through treachery, lust and hatred. I think the history of the Rings of Power in the Second Age and Third Ages could arguably be a misguided attempt by the remaining Exiles to try to arrest change and repair the damage done by Time and the Enemy by their own powers of sub-creation. The power of the Three Rings of the elves was of that nature. Sauron in his cunning and evil nature saw the innate weakness and hurts that the elves suffered during the First Age and using the craft of Celebrimbor brought about the creation of the Rings of Power and his own attempt to control the last of the Elven kingdoms and the free peoples in the North-West of Middle-Earth.

To sum up I’ll begin with another interesting fragment and something I particularly agree with in a passage from another [yawn] one of JRRTs letters

Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this ‘history’, because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them ……

Elves and their immortality is simply a mirror of some of our deepest desires in our mortal world. The desire to have the time to bring forth our beauty or the purpose or the ability to create that resides within all of us … but do we comprehend the penalties and burden of immortality? Do we or could we cope with the unending experiences of loss and the irrecoverable changes to the world around us that we would have to witness and be part of as the ages slide by?

So is that a bane or simply the way things are? I’d say both.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally posted by Voronwe:
<STRONG>I've always thought that the two themes that were played before Iluvatar were not themes of Elves and Men, but that one was the theme that Melkor introduced (the vain theme), and the other the theme of the children of Iluvatar (both Elves and Men together). In my eyes the 'triumphant notes' being 'woven into the solemn pattern' illustrated that any evil proceeding from Melkor worked in the end only to Illuvatar's greater glory.

</STRONG>

I'm stunned. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] After reading through carefully and even charting it out, I find myself in agreement with you, Voronwe. I stand corrected.

So the sorrow is experienced by ALL good beings, not just the Eldar. That makes sense, of course. Nevertheless, as Mat so skillfully lays out, the longevity of the Eldar makes their sorrow deeper than that of men. And therefore the sorrow of the Valar is deeper yet! Cool! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] ahem [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] got carried away there -cough cough -